sunny27 said:
Yup, but it aint a whip, but a remote control which can operate over long range too
But it looks like US will be turning the screws on India to make us get the JSF. Heard/read it somewhere the other day.
Eurofighter typhoon vs Dassault Rafale
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Yup, but it aint a whip, but a remote control which can operate over long range too
But it looks like US will be turning the screws on India to make us get the JSF. Heard/read it somewhere the other day.
blufox said:
These fighters are a little better than Su 30mki
We're already getting the next gen Sukhoi Pak Fa but the stealth capability of that fighter is questionable
Also they are not in mass production yet(Still at prototype stage)
So the MMRCA Deal is to Replace the flying coffins and maintain the squadron strength
blufox
Forerunner
^^^^ Stealth of a plane is solely dependent on its Radar and outer body material and construction.
Sukhoi is not bad as far as stealth is concerned because for all the planes in question and Sukhoi their Heat signature is significant.
Also, the wave transmitting radar which a plane uses is the main factor among these.
If you call more gadgets as superiority, then may be yes but lets face it India should try to get a AESA radar betterment if not from Russians maybe from French/Europeans to strengthen the Sukhoi shortcoming. US would never give this core tech for a non-US plane.
Sukhoi is not bad as far as stealth is concerned because for all the planes in question and Sukhoi their Heat signature is significant.
Also, the wave transmitting radar which a plane uses is the main factor among these.
If you call more gadgets as superiority, then may be yes but lets face it India should try to get a AESA radar betterment if not from Russians maybe from French/Europeans to strengthen the Sukhoi shortcoming. US would never give this core tech for a non-US plane.
su30mki doesn't appear to have any measures to reduce its RCS,its a big aircraft and you are going to see a big target on the radar .
It does have a decent radar and lots of payload capability,but when it comes to BVR combat the EF typhoon and rafale is going to take the first shot with their lower RCS and most certainly has a better radar.
Su30mki however will certainly have the edge against threats such as F16,J10,J11.
But india narrowing it down to these 2 aircrafts makes logistics a challenge,if they had choosen the F/A-18SH the same engines are going to power the upcoming LCA aircraft,plus a proven aircraft .
It does have a decent radar and lots of payload capability,but when it comes to BVR combat the EF typhoon and rafale is going to take the first shot with their lower RCS and most certainly has a better radar.
Su30mki however will certainly have the edge against threats such as F16,J10,J11.
But india narrowing it down to these 2 aircrafts makes logistics a challenge,if they had choosen the F/A-18SH the same engines are going to power the upcoming LCA aircraft,plus a proven aircraft .
HailStonE
Forerunner
blufox said:
Don't forget Israel. They have some pretty good equipment as we.. We should not depend upon US anyways..
One more reason for Sukhoi not getting selected it that its basically a variant of Su27 from which other in the series were evolved. Not very new in many ways. Also when this deal was finalized IAF looked into long term & initial cost of procurement as well.
cooleagle
Contributor
adder said:
HAL is manufacturing the Su 30MKI's Engines AL-31FP. (Russian Tech :| ).
HAL is going to assemble GE F414 Engines for LCA Mk2. (American Tech :| )
India's GTRE is already in talks from a long time with Snecma to design an engine keeping in mind LCA Mk2, AMCA, etc.
(specifically French Tech :| )
As and when it selects for MMRCA Typhoon (EJ200) or Rafale (Snecma M88-2) then HAL will also manufacture any one of those engines. (French Tech / British, German, Italian, Spanish Tech :| )
While Indians are at managing this circus of manufacturing various engines, I hope one day an Indian engine will see the light of the day. (Indian Tech
hyeah: :clap: )--- Updated Post - Automerged ---
HailStonE said:
Buddy maybe you are getting confused but MMRCA deal was to keep the number of aircrafts IAF has to the minimum required levels & not to replace Su-30MKI which is a very good aircraft.
HailStonE
Forerunner
cooleagle said:
Nope... Not confused, don't know what gave you this Idea. My comment was for the member suggesting why Sukhoi was left out for this specific procurement (few posts above)... I know this deal is to replace our aging fleet of MiG's while Sukhoi will be our main fighter aircraft...
RS4
Herald
It's funny to see the various comments. I think there'd be very few of us even qualified to comment on the specifics of the various aircraft even discussed. Right from moral grounds to assumed strengths, i think we need to accept that the people who make decisions like this would have a much more deeper insight into the intricacies that make up such complex decisions. We need to respect that.
People have been drawing parallels between the Su 30MKI's and the Dassault / Eurofighter etc. It would be prudent to first understand the different categories and classes that make up fighter aircraft classifications. Media highlighted aspects of "Stealth" "Electronic Wizadry" etc etc are the more easy to understand aspects for lay men. What the mainstream media doesnt highlight often is factors like hardpoints, payload capabilities, payload combinations and range payload flexibilities etc.
In these issues while everyone normally has favourites for any reason whatsoever, i just wanna say its not as easy as going through the manufacturers specification charts and trying to say one is over the other price not withstanding
People have been drawing parallels between the Su 30MKI's and the Dassault / Eurofighter etc. It would be prudent to first understand the different categories and classes that make up fighter aircraft classifications. Media highlighted aspects of "Stealth" "Electronic Wizadry" etc etc are the more easy to understand aspects for lay men. What the mainstream media doesnt highlight often is factors like hardpoints, payload capabilities, payload combinations and range payload flexibilities etc.
In these issues while everyone normally has favourites for any reason whatsoever, i just wanna say its not as easy as going through the manufacturers specification charts and trying to say one is over the other price not withstanding
^^^
Exactly. Getting more Su30MKI is NOT THE SAME as getting this Rafale. Dumb reporters. Actually forums and blogs give a far better and accurate info regarding that.
Both planes are going to do 2 different jobs. Atleast they could have mentioned its going to replace the bisons.
Anyways, Rafale is the more BETTER looking jet than EF. PAF and PLAF will be having nice view on their rear view mirrors...
..before turning to dust.
Go Get em IAF!!!...
Also this means, LCA's ill fated engine will be soon getting snappy. The Engine builders have already said they will help.
Guess that is going to be used for Arjun Mk2 MBT also. Yippeee.
Is it me or the French seems to be the best partners we have in international area. Better than the Russians that is.
Not even counting the Americans. Two faced they are.
Exactly. Getting more Su30MKI is NOT THE SAME as getting this Rafale. Dumb reporters. Actually forums and blogs give a far better and accurate info regarding that.
Both planes are going to do 2 different jobs. Atleast they could have mentioned its going to replace the bisons.
Anyways, Rafale is the more BETTER looking jet than EF. PAF and PLAF will be having nice view on their rear view mirrors...
Go Get em IAF!!!...
Also this means, LCA's ill fated engine will be soon getting snappy. The Engine builders have already said they will help.
Guess that is going to be used for Arjun Mk2 MBT also. Yippeee.
Is it me or the French seems to be the best partners we have in international area. Better than the Russians that is.
Not even counting the Americans. Two faced they are.
whatsinaname
Innovator
Unfortunately, I don't think there are too many people who have such technical abilities in decision making positions.
I don't think that is going to happen in our life time.
The EF and the Rafale are very similar in their capabilities. Given that they shared common mission specification origins and desgin criteria's which later evolved laterally by virtue of France moving out from the original consortium.
Therefore in most aspects that define major mission criteria along with design weights and specifications, they are both classified as Medium Multirole Fighters. Of course there is no clear winner over it in lay men terms simply because you have to get to complex evaluations in order to determine who is better rather than simple evaluations. Rather, in simple terms.. both were built for the exact same purpose in the same weight category and mission objectives.
thats why its not so clear cut. To put it simply... It's almost like comparing the Vento with the Skoda Rapid (not in the literal specification sense but in the overal category.. they are after all cousins on the same platform and similar mechanicals). Yes some will come with specific features that one has over the others.. but thats exactly where the in depth evaluations come in.
Overall i think the EF is a more proven platform and mature in diverse environments by virtue of its large - foreign airforce presence. It has been operated by a variety of air forces across Europe as well as Saudi and that gives it a slight edge in terms of customisability, operational diversity and in service reliability. The Rafale on the other hand is virtually tailor made to France's specific requirements and service theatres. Indian conditions will be a good avenue specific for the Rafale platform to prove its mettle. Again in Dassault's favor, their exposure to the Indian conditions will be by now well documented and studied as part of their long standing relationship in supporting the Mirage 2000 fighters. France, though sometimes politically fickle, is also that much more easier to handle diplomatically and politically when it comes to sticky points rather than a group of countries where it would take efforts to bring everyone on board should things shift politically.
I think what would have really swayed the decision would have been the overall cost including tech transfer at a per unit level which would have been the clincher with the IAF likely to have found that both aircraft are on similar capability levels.
Therefore in most aspects that define major mission criteria along with design weights and specifications, they are both classified as Medium Multirole Fighters. Of course there is no clear winner over it in lay men terms simply because you have to get to complex evaluations in order to determine who is better rather than simple evaluations. Rather, in simple terms.. both were built for the exact same purpose in the same weight category and mission objectives.
thats why its not so clear cut. To put it simply... It's almost like comparing the Vento with the Skoda Rapid (not in the literal specification sense but in the overal category.. they are after all cousins on the same platform and similar mechanicals). Yes some will come with specific features that one has over the others.. but thats exactly where the in depth evaluations come in.
Overall i think the EF is a more proven platform and mature in diverse environments by virtue of its large - foreign airforce presence. It has been operated by a variety of air forces across Europe as well as Saudi and that gives it a slight edge in terms of customisability, operational diversity and in service reliability. The Rafale on the other hand is virtually tailor made to France's specific requirements and service theatres. Indian conditions will be a good avenue specific for the Rafale platform to prove its mettle. Again in Dassault's favor, their exposure to the Indian conditions will be by now well documented and studied as part of their long standing relationship in supporting the Mirage 2000 fighters. France, though sometimes politically fickle, is also that much more easier to handle diplomatically and politically when it comes to sticky points rather than a group of countries where it would take efforts to bring everyone on board should things shift politically.
I think what would have really swayed the decision would have been the overall cost including tech transfer at a per unit level which would have been the clincher with the IAF likely to have found that both aircraft are on similar capability levels.
I find it funny how the EU and Britain in particular are moaning about losing out to the Dassault Rafale and communicating / pleading over the diplomatic channel on how we should reconsider. Its funny that a purchase by a country like ours is going to affect their economy and jobs. It was the other way round till recently.
@mach9 - the lethality of an aircraft isn't in its looks! The rafale may look good but i still think the eurofighter is a better deal.
@mach9 - the lethality of an aircraft isn't in its looks! The rafale may look good but i still think the eurofighter is a better deal.
harry_houdini
Contributor
12 billion dollar contract does affect jobs . Without the need for furniture in market place , what would a carpenter do ? .
So is with the aircraft engineers and technicians etc .
I also dont get it about people saying India is not going to war and we are wasting money ,
There has been a war every century , also China's plan to stage kargil style limited attack has already been leaked out .
It has been proven time and time again that Air Force superiority is of utmost importance .
So is with the aircraft engineers and technicians etc .
I also dont get it about people saying India is not going to war and we are wasting money ,
There has been a war every century , also China's plan to stage kargil style limited attack has already been leaked out .
It has been proven time and time again that Air Force superiority is of utmost importance .
I'm sorry, i dont follow you... erm... and why are you telling me that? I didnt say anything about the aesthetics of one over the other being linked to lethality. Whatever gave you that idea?
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