Final speech by Nathuram Godse when he was tried for murder of Mahatma Gandhi

The following is the speech given by Nathuram Godse in the court when he was tried for the murder of Mahatma Gandhi.

Born in a devotional Brahmin family, I instinctively came to revere Hindu religion, Hindu history and Hindu culture. I had, therefore, been intensely proud of Hinduism as a whole. As I grew up I developed a tendency to free thinking unfettered by any superstitious allegiance to any isms, political or religious. That is why I worked actively for the eradication of untouchability and the caste system based on birth alone. I openly joined anti-caste movements and maintained that all Hindus were of equal status as to rights, social and religious and should be considered high or low on merit alone and not through the accident of birth in a particular caste or profession. I used publicly to take part in organized anti-caste dinners in which thousands of Hindus, Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaisyas, Chamars and Bhangis participated. We broke the caste rules and dined in the company of each other.

I have read the speeches and writings of Dadabhai Nairoji, Vivekanand, Gokhale, Tilak, along with the books of ancient and modern history of India and some prominent countries like England, France, America and' Russia. Moreover I studied the tenets of Socialism and Marxism. But above all I studied very closely whatever Veer Savarkar and Gandhiji had written and spoken, as to my mind these two ideologies have contributed more to the moulding of the thought and action of the Indian people during the last thirty years or so, than any other single factor has done.

All this reading and thinking led me to believe it was my first duty to serve Hindudom and Hindus both as a patriot and as a world citizen. To secure the freedom and to safeguard the just interests of some thirty crores (300 million) of Hindus would automatically constitute the freedom and the well being of all India, one fifth of human race. This conviction led me naturally to devote myself to the Hindu Sanghtanist ideology and programme, which alone, I came to believe, could win and preserve the national independence of Hindustan, my Motherland, and enable her to render true service to humanity as well.

Since the year 1920, that is, after the demise of Lokamanya Tilak, Gandhiji's influence in the Congress first increased and then became supreme. His activities for public awakening were phenomenal in their intensity and were reinforced by the slogan of truth and non-violence, which he paraded ostentatiously before the country. No sensible or enlightened person could object to those slogans. In fact there is nothing new or original in them. They are implicit in every constitutional public movement. But it is nothing but a mere dream if you imagine that the bulk of mankind is, or can ever become, capable of scrupulous adherence to these lofty principles in its normal life from day to day. In fact, honour, duty and love of one's own kith and kin and country might often compel us to disregard non-violence and to use force. I could never conceive that an armed resistance to an aggression is unjust. I would consider it a religious and moral duty to resist and, if possible, to overpower such an enemy by use of force. [In the Ramayana] Rama killed Ravana in a tumultuous fight and relieved Sita. [In the Mahabharata], Krishna killed Kansa to end his wickedness; and Arjuna had to fight and slay quite a number of his friends and relations including the revered Bhishma because the latter was on the side of the aggressor. It is my firm belief that in dubbing Rama, Krishna and Arjuna as guilty of violence, the Mahatma betrayed a total ignorance of the springs of human action.

In more recent history, it was the heroic fight put up by Chhatrapati Shivaji that first checked and eventually destroyed the Muslim tyranny in India. It was absolutely essentially for Shivaji to overpower and kill an aggressive Afzal Khan, failing which he would have lost his own life. In condemning history's towering warriors like Shivaji, Rana Pratap and Guru Gobind Singh as misguided patriots, Gandhiji has merely exposed his self-conceit. He was, paradoxical, as it may appear, a violent pacifist who brought untold calamities on the country in the name of truth and non-violence, while Rana Pratap, Shivaji and the Guru will remain enshrined in the hearts of their countrymen forever for the freedom they brought to them.

The accumulating provocation of thirty-two years, culminating in his last pro-Muslim fast, at last goaded me to the conclusion that the existence of Gandhi should be brought to an end immediately. Gandhi had done very well in South Africa to uphold the rights and well being of the Indian community there. But when he finally returned to India he developed a subjective mentality under which he alone was to be the final judge of what was right or wrong. If the country wanted his leadership, it had to accept his infallibility; if it did not, he would stand aloof from the Congress and carry on his own way. Against such an attitude there can be no halfway house. Either Congress had to surrender its will to his and had to be content with playing second fiddle to all his eccentricity, whimsicality, metaphysics and primitive vision, or it had to carry on without him. He alone was the Judge of everyone and everything; he was the master brain guiding the civil disobedience movement; no other could know the technique of that movement. He alone knew when to begin and when to withdraw it. The movement might succeed or fail, it might bring untold disaster and political reverses but that could make no difference to the Mahatma's infallibility. 'A Satyagrahi can never fail' was his formula for declaring his own infallibility and nobody except himself knew what a Satyagrahi is.

Thus, the Mahatma became the judge and jury in his own cause. These childish insanities and obstinacies, coupled with a most severe austerity of life, ceaseless work and lofty character made Gandhi formidable and irresistible. Many people thought that his politics were irrational but they had either to withdraw from the Congress or place their intelligence at his feet to do with, as he liked. In a position of such absolute irresponsibility Gandhi was guilty of blunder after blunder, failure after failure, disaster after disaster.

Gandhi's pro-Muslim policy is blatantly in his perverse attitude on the question of the national language of India. It is quite obvious that Hindi has the most prior claim to be accepted as the premier language. In the beginning of his career in India, Gandhi gave a great impetus to Hindi but as he found that the Muslims did not like it, he became a champion of what is called Hindustani. Everybody in India knows that there is no language called Hindustani; it has no grammar; it has no vocabulary. It is a mere dialect; it is spoken, but not written. It is a bastard tongue and crossbreed between Hindi and Urdu, and not even the Mahatma's sophistry could make it popular. But in his desire to please the Muslims he insisted that Hindustani alone should be the national language of India. His blind followers, of course, supported him and the so-called hybrid language began to be used. The charm and purity of the Hindi language was to be prostituted to please the Muslims. All his experiments were at the expense of the Hindus.

From August 1946 onwards the private armies of the Muslim League began a massacre of the Hindus. The then Viceroy, Lord Wavell, though distressed at what was happening, would not use his powers under the Government of India Act of 1935 to prevent the rape, murder and arson. The Hindu blood began to flow from Bengal to Karachi with some retaliation by the Hindus. The Interim Government formed in September was sabotaged by its Muslim League members right from its inception, but the more they became disloyal and treasonable to the government of which they were a part, the greater was Gandhi's infatuation for them. Lord Wavell had to resign as he could not bring about a settlement and he was succeeded by Lord Mountbatten. King Log was followed by King Stork.

The Congress, which had boasted of its nationalism and socialism, secretly accepted Pakistan literally at the point of the bayonet and abjectly surrendered to Jinnah. India was vivisected and one-third of the Indian territory became foreign land to us from August 15, 1947. Lord Mountbatten came to be described in Congress circles as the greatest Viceroy and Governor-General this country ever had. The official date for handing over power was fixed for June 30, 1948, but Mountbatten with his ruthless surgery gave us a gift of vivisected India ten months in advance. This is what Gandhi had achieved after thirty years of undisputed dictatorship and this is what Congress party calls 'freedom' and 'peaceful transfer of power'. The Hindu-Muslim unity bubble was finally burst and a theocratic state was established with the consent of Nehru and his crowd and they have called 'freedom won by them with sacrifice' - whose sacrifice? When top leaders of Congress, with the consent of Gandhi, divided and tore the country - which we consider a deity of worship - my mind was filled with direful anger.

One of the conditions imposed by Gandhi for his breaking of the fast unto death related to the mosques in Delhi occupied by the Hindu refugees. But when Hindus in Pakistan were subjected to violent attacks he did not so much as utter a single word to protest and censure the Pakistan Government or the Muslims concerned. Gandhi was shrewd enough to know that while undertaking a fast unto death, had he imposed for its break some condition on the Muslims in Pakistan, there would have been found hardly any Muslims who could have shown some grief if the fast had ended in his death. It was for this reason that he purposely avoided imposing any condition on the Muslims. He was fully aware of from the experience that Jinnah was not at all perturbed or influenced by his fast and the Muslim League hardly attached any value to the inner voice of Gandhi.

Gandhi is being referred to as the Father of the Nation. But if that is so, he had failed his paternal duty inasmuch as he has acted very treacherously to the nation by his consenting to the partitioning of it. I stoutly maintain that Gandhi has failed in his duty. He has proved to be the Father of Pakistan. His inner-voice, his spiritual power and his doctrine of non-violence of which so much is made of, all crumbled before Jinnah's iron will and proved to be powerless.

Briefly speaking, I thought to myself and foresaw I shall be totally ruined, and the only thing I could expect from the people would be nothing but hatred and that I shall have lost all my honour, even more valuable than my life, if I were to kill Gandhiji. But at the same time I felt that the Indian politics in the absence of Gandhiji would surely be proved practical, able to retaliate, and would be powerful with armed forces. No doubt, my own future would be totally ruined, but the nation would be saved from the inroads of Pakistan. People may even call me and dub me as devoid of any sense or foolish, but the nation would be free to follow the course founded on the reason which I consider to be necessary for sound nation-building. After having fully considered the question, I took the final decision in the matter, but I did not speak about it to anyone whatsoever. I took courage in both my hands and I did fire the shots at Gandhiji on 30th January 1948, on the prayer-grounds of Birla House.
I do say that my shots were fired at the person whose policy and action had brought rack and ruin and destruction to millions of Hindus. There was no legal machinery by which such an offender could be brought to book and for this reason I fired those fatal shots.

I bear no ill will towards anyone individually but I do say that I had no respect for the present government owing to their policy, which was unfairly favourable towards the Muslims. But at the same time I could clearly see that the policy was entirely due to the presence of Gandhi. I have to say with great regret that Prime Minister Nehru quite forgets that his preachings and deeds are at times at variances with each other when he talks about India as a secular state in season and out of season, because it is significant to note that Nehru has played a leading role in the establishment of the theocratic state of Pakistan, and his job was made easier by Gandhi's persistent policy of appeasement towards the Muslims.

I now stand before the court to accept the full share of my responsibility for what I have done and the judge would, of course, pass against me such orders of sentence as may be considered proper. But I would like to add that I do not desire any mercy to be shown to me, nor do I wish that anyone else should beg for mercy on my behalf. My confidence about the moral side of my action has not been shaken even by the criticism levelled against it on all sides. I have no doubt that honest writers of history will weigh my act and find the true value thereof some day in future.

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This is taken from another website.
 
^^Interesting read..a bit too long though..:p

Neways, though i'm not a supporter of Gandhi ji's decisions especially towards the fag end of our freedom revolution which eventually led to the formation of a separate state..and which wud ultimately become the biggest pain in the..u kno whr :p...of india..but i still think, by killing him, Godse did nothing different from what the terrorists are doing now around the world...killing is not a solution to the problem.. :no: One extremist is no better than the other..no matter what religion or cause he is following..:no:

Slightly OT maybe, but i read an interesting article in TOI a longtime back...

Those who think Indians won their independence by perseverance and grit, are in for a bad shock...the british left India at a time when the resistance was the weakest ever...and the main reason was, Germany had completely devastated England in WW2..had it not been for the Allied forces, England wud today have been a part of the Third Reich...England had to face a lot of trouble to keep the Germans from invading their land..and in the process, more and more Army and air force personnel were called in from their colonies around the world..Germany continued with the devastation and Britain cudnt gather enuf taxes from their colonies to feed the war.. by the time the war was over and Germany eventually lost, England was in ruins...fearing the worst outbreak of resistance in the colonies (indian being the biggest), they pulled off on their own..:p In fact a lot of people were surprised by Britain's decision to leave india without a visible reason.. The thing is tht WW2 did it for us what the 100 years of revolution cudnt...;) :p

In 1942, the strongest resistance from Indian freedom fighters was suppressed by the british..tht proved their resilience to the Indian uprising..even then they lingered on.. because then they were financially strong enuf to sustain the colonies..not so after the war was over n all the money down the drain..:hap5:
 
i agree with ryan...it wasnt that indian won freedom we were granted freedom as they were losing there home soil.....

also i guess gandhi told the congress to dissolve if i m not mistaking
 
This thing just makes the point "Gandhi ruined the country" more clearer...

The thing is tht WW2 did it for us what the 100 years of revolution cudnt

it wasnt so much of a revolution as much it was sitting around half naked doing nothing...hoping for a miracle!!
This is just proves sitting around idle solves nothign....if there is a problem go to the root of it n destroy it...
 
Wraith said:
it wasnt so much of a revolution as much it was sitting around half naked doing nothing...hoping for a miracle!!This is just proves sitting around idle solves nothign....if there is a problem go to the root of it n destroy it...

There is another way around..;) Let the others fight and you get what you want as a result of the fight..thts just what happened after WW2...India, though not directly affected by the war, reaped the benefit of a weakened Britain, which eventually had to leave..

Today the scenario has changed but the old formula still works..and look whose making the most use of it..our beloved neighbours, Pakistan...:lol: They are trying everything possible to weaken the country from inside by making use of the religion propaganda and creating tensions among the people.. :no:

The only difference is tht we got our much deserved and honest independence as the fallout of the war and these paki buggers are trying the same thing to fulfill their vested interests...:no:

Btw, i do not completely agree tht we were sitting around for the most part of the resistance..a lot of people have lost lives in the resistance..to say so wud be an insult to their sacrifice..we may not have been technically even remotely close to the british to pull off a full fledged war, but whatever we had, there were enuf occasions when we fought them tooth and nail..be it with non violence or violence..:lol:..1942 was supposedly the strongest revolt of it all..
 
Private Ryan said:
Slightly OT maybe, but i read an interesting article in TOI a longtime back...
Those who think Indians won their independence by perseverance and grit, are in for a bad shock...the british left India at a time when the resistance was the weakest ever...and the main reason was, Germany had completely devastated England in WW2..had it not been for the Allied forces, England wud today have been a part of the Third Reich...England had to face a lot of trouble to keep the Germans from invading their land..and in the process, more and more Army and air force personnel were called in from their colonies around the world..Germany continued with the devastation and Britain cudnt gather enuf taxes from their colonies to feed the war.. by the time the war was over and Germany eventually lost, England was in ruins...fearing the worst outbreak of resistance in the colonies (indian being the biggest), they pulled off on their own..:p In fact a lot of people were surprised by Britain's decision to leave india without a visible reason.. The thing is tht WW2 did it for us what the 100 years of revolution cudnt...;) :p
In 1942, the strongest resistance from Indian freedom fighters was suppressed by the british..tht proved their resilience to the Indian uprising..even then they lingered on.. because then they were financially strong enuf to sustain the colonies..not so after the war was over n all the money down the drain..:hap5:

Yes, thats absolutely correct. The British were too weak to handle such a big colony as India after the WWII and thats why it was possible to get Independence. Had it not been for this reason and if the Indians had only relied on the Non-violence movements, Our country would still have been in the hands of the British (and perhaps it would have been in a better state than the sorry state its in now).

Though Gandhi may have deserved what he got, Godse's mentality was no better.

Another thing is that I do not understand is why many (but not all, no offense :) ) Hindus in India (especially in the north, again no offense, just an observation) have the mentality that the Muslims should be driven out of the county. I have seen some people even call Muslims as Pakistanis. For a fact most of the North Indian people are descendent's of the Aryans who are supposed to have migrated from the European/Iranian sub-continents. Similarly Dravidian's (Most of the south India) were there before the Aryans, but they too are supposed to have migrated from the middle-east. Both have become integral part of India and so do the Muslims who are in India. So why do people alienate other religions and say that they should be driven out when they are part of our country.
 
Btw, i do not completely agree tht we were sitting around for the most part of the resistance..a lot of people have lost lives in the resistance..to say so wud be an insult to their sacrifice..we may not have been technically even remotely close to the british to pull off a full fledged war, but whatever we had, there were enuf occasions when we fought them tooth and nail..be it with non violence or violence....1942 was supposedly the strongest revolt of it all..

the sitting around crap was solely n whole heartedly aimed at Mr M. Gandhi and thats it!

I in no way want to disrespect the many many brave men n women who laid down their lives in the fight for our freedom...
 
Lord Nemesis said:
Another thing is that I do not understand is why many (but not all, no offense :) ) Hindus in India (especially in the north, again no offense, just an observation) have the mentality that the Muslims should be driven out of the county. I have seen some people even call Muslims as Pakistanis.


Well,we should just focus on gandhi,whether his death was good for the country,what kinda person he was,etc,etc in this thread.There is another thread to discuss muslims,hindu-muslim divide,etc,etc.
 
Private Ryan said:
The thing is tht WW2 did it for us what the 100 years of revolution cudnt...;) :p
And who was the principal instigator of that war in Europe ;) ..but i dont think he started it for our sake :p

But what about the independance of a lot of other asian & african countries, they did not all together get it right away, it took more than 10 -15 yrs for some. But had it not been for WW2, its not hard to imagine things would have lasted longer.

Regarding Godse, hmm, he says he would have been destroyed, makes me think he was based in what is now pakistan and seriously pissed off with the decision.

Don't know what to make of his description of Hindustani. Does such a language exist today ? not written but spoken ?

If 2 different communities are to get along with one another, a compromise has to be reached , if both parties stick to their guns there is nothing but turmoil. Isn't accepting each others language and making a new hybrid of it, one way to achieve this. It shows respect for both cultures that way. Godse's is a rather extreme reaction to this. If others were willing to speak it, who is he to dictate that they should not behave in this way. His action itself is the root of chaos. I mean imagine if this idea got extended to there is to be only one language spoken in this country and anything else would be not be tolerated

One of the biggest reasons that this country is still in almost one piece was the centre's tolerance to regional languages and therefore the continual of their cultures, especially in middle & the south.

I also think his judgement of Gandhi was rather harsh, its not like he didnt try to keep the country together. But if Jinnah & his cronies did not give a damn, the only other option in this case would be civil war. How long would that have gone on for ? Could it spread to other states and pretty soon everyone wants their independance. Hey, after all we got independence cos the Brits were tired of fighting, so all other states could gain independance from the centre in the same way right ?

Is that maybe too much of a gamble ?..after all we are talking only a few years after the most terrible war that the world has ever witnessed.

..surely in this case partition is the lesser of the two evils.

Let the next generation deal with it, at least they would have a better chance of being born this way. :eek:hyeah:
 
Lord Nemesis said:
Another thing is that I do not understand is why many (but not all, no offense ) Hindus in India (especially in the north, again no offense, just an observation) have the mentality that the Muslims should be driven out of the county. I have seen some people even call Muslims as Pakistanis
I believe, those who think or say tht muslims shud be driven out of the country are again, those fcukin hardliners..this time on the hindu side ;)..there is no dearth of such ppl..shiv sena, vhp, bajrang dal, rss etc...like i said, extremist in any form or in any side never do anyone, any good...these ppl are as much a scourge for this country as the hardliners and extremists within the muslims... I dont think educated ppl think tht muslims shud be driven out of this country...
I agree, sometimes the general perception towards them is not always good..and thts because of the hardliners and terrorists...they bring in bad name to the whole community...and ppl say such things only in frustration..:no:

Sometimes it really makes me feel bad about the way people fight over such petty matters as the religion...Fcuk religion..the world cud have been a much better place if there werent any... i mean what do ppl miss if they do not follow any religion..i for one, do not follow any religion(even though i may be a hindu) and i dont see the reason, why i shud..i dont miss it at all..:hap5:
I think if ppl were sensible enuf, there wud have been no crusades,no jews genocide, no ku klux klan, no babri masjid/1993 riots, no gujrat riots, no WTC and war on terror, no mumbai train blasts..the list is endless..u see, in all of these, religion plays the main driving factor... everybody knows it..and yet they are naive enuf to keep following it..why not fcukin dump it..and live free..:huh:
 
Private Ryan said:
I agree, sometimes the general perception towards them is not always good..and thts because of the hardliners and terrorists...they bring in bad name to the whole community...and ppl say such things only in frustration..:no:
It's a way to get attention, politics, how the minority tries to give the impression that the majority thinks that way. All these terrorist actions are just that, minority views. Classic manipulation, the route to power, either make ppl angry or scare the shit out of them.

That their petty, bs message is actually the way it is. if you are not uptodate, its easy to get misled. Many terrorists are muslim, therefore all muslims must be terrorists. Not very different to the majority of incarcerated ppl in US jails are coloured, therefore all colureds are more susceptible to commit crimes. An increased number of rapes in the UK were committed by Asians, therefore all Asians must like to rape.

How easy it is to make these impressions, how very difficult & costly to undo them :huh:

You'd think they would be more aware of this in the west since they are supposed to be more *educated* but i dont see much diff when it comes to these things between them or us.

Private Ryan said:
...Fcuk religion..the world cud have been a much better place if there werent any... i mean what do ppl miss if they do not follow any religion..
I don't think its religon that's the cause but rather its abuse. Anything mixed up with politics gets a bad name. I cant beleive any religon that deserves that label would condone any of this shit.

Private Ryan said:
I think if ppl were sensible enuf, there wud have been no crusades,no jews genocide, no ku klux klan, no babri masjid/1993 riots, no gujrat riots, no WTC and war on terror, no mumbai train blasts..the list is endless..u see, in all of these, religion plays the main driving factor... everybody knows it..and yet they are naive enuf to keep following it..why not fcukin dump it..and live free..:huh:
You get another phenomenon in some countries, politically correct.

Lots of ppl are getting pissed off because they cant abuse the other parties in public now.

Trangression on freedom of speech is what they call it.
 
I also think his judgement of Gandhi was rather harsh, its not like he didnt try to keep the country together. But if Jinnah & his cronies did not give a damn, the only other option in this case would be civil war. How long would that have gone on for ? Could it spread to other states and pretty soon everyone wants their independance. Hey, after all we got independence cos the Brits were tired of fighting, so all other states could gain independance from the centre in the same way right ?

I disagree.Although his views on muslims was absurd, Godse was right about gandhi.The reason jinnah and co. came to prominence was because of gandhi.He gave too much importance to those leaders.There were many nationalistic muslims who gandhi gave much less attention........jinnah kept making more and more demands and gandhi kept giving into those demands............ So it wasn't a big surprise that jinnah (his ego already bloated by gandhi) asked for partition of india and gandhi readily caved in. Infact even after partition, gandhi kept making foolish,even dangerous demands.For eg. he demanded that funds be given to pakistan and when congress party refused, this stupid moron went on a fast,quickly forcing the congress to change their policy.Funds to pakistan??WTF??Had it been any other leader he would have invaded that sorry ass state...but not this genius:D:D he wanted to give them funds.:D:D.Had this moron lived longer,pakistan would have ended up occupying most of india.Godse did the right thing by killing this fool.Infact he was the only hindu fundamentalist leader who ever did anything good for the country.:eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah:

Gandhi's policies were absurd and like godse said gandhi's inner-voice, his spiritual power and his doctrine of non-violence of which so much is made of, all crumbled before Jinnah's iron will and proved to be powerless.

Besides i doubt the communal riots would have ever extended to the rest of india had division of india not taken place.After all a majority of indian muslims never went to pakistan anyway.But the truth is we will never know.But what we all do know is that the division of the country took place because of jinnah and his followers who belivers in the two nation theory and who only rose to prominence because of gandhi.Gandhi never really managed to achieve much for india......india's independence.....Ohh!!!that was achieved mainly thanks to hitler.....Gandhi just had to do one thing right---- to make sure things went smoothly when india achieved it's independence......and he and congress screwed that up!!

He was again responsible for making Nehru the PM when the congress party was in favour of making patel the PM.And this guy nehru was again responsible for many blunders.:mad: :mad: ....i don't even have to name them.... we all know what those are :rofl: :rofl:

So in the end india was much better off without gandhi.
 
That is just like a kid trying to hold his/her breath until the face turns blue . a proper dialouge has to be present and you cannot expect to change each and everything with fasting .

I was never a fan of Gandhi however this read make me think even low of him .
 
Blr_P said:
But what about the independance of a lot of other asian & african countries, they did not all together get it right away, it took more than 10 -15 yrs for some. But had it not been for WW2, its not hard to imagine things would have lasted longer.

That was mainly because of their size..most of the countries tht the brits still held on to were smaller than a few states of india...which required lesser personnel to control..but they had already tasted the revolution in india in 1942 and given the massive size of India then, also including paskistan, they knew, a second such uprising wud probably have caused a disgraceful defeat and ouster from the country..so to keep their dignity intact..they decided, it was probably the right time to 'leave'...:lol:

One of the biggest reasons that this country is still in almost one piece was the centre's tolerance to regional languages and therefore the continual of their cultures, especially in middle & the south.

Cudnt agree more...:eek:hyeah: Really, even today i think, its a miracle for this country to be a single unit after 60 years, despite so many smaller 'countries' within, having their own unique language, having a unique lifestyle..thts just amazing.. there have been a lot of other countries where there was a unification..USA being the biggest example and Germany..there were many smaller states including bavaria,saxony, lorraine,franconia etc, 19 in total which kept fighting with one another..but eventually they came together..tht was mainly because they probably followed a single religion..signel language and lifestyle..same was the case with america, if u let go the apartheid.... but in india's case..it was totally different.. had it not been for the centre's tolerance, this country wud soon have seen the worst civil war in all of human history..something whose results cud have been devastating...even the thought of it freaks me out..we always look at 1984 emergency,1993 riots, gujrat riots as a the black episodes of indian history..imagine the thing getting spread to all the states of india..evryone fighting for their own petty issues and for independence from center..killing each other like in sierra Leone,somalia and iraq...:no: Tht wud have been horrific..we usually make a lot of hue n cry over the bad political state in india but i still think it deserves applause for keeping India intact...;) Look at what happened to USSR...so many different cast n creeds..one massive country...eventually it crumbled...:hap5: India deserves to be a subject of management studies in the best universities of the world...no one manages its people better...:D
 
arrow055 said:
The reason jinnah and co. came to prominence was because of gandhi.He gave too much importance to those leaders.There were many nationalistic muslims who gandhi gave much less attention........
Sure bout this ?

Instead how about...

Jinnah came to power since he had the most support amongst his people. His other rivals did not have the numbers and therefore were not able to speak for all ?

If gandhi put Jinnah in power, why would the ppl. Jinnah represented not think him to be a mere puppet in that case. Are you suggesting that they followed jinnah inspite of this, How simple of mind they must be :eek:hyeah:

arrow055 said:
Godse did the right thing by killing this fool.Infact he was the only hindu fundamentalist leader who ever did anything good for the country.:eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah: :eek:hyeah:
Ahh now it becomes clear, interesting timing for this topic. Trying to rubbish Gandhi+Congress for what happened 60 yrs ago. Who is in power now ? let's make sure they don't remain in power, come the next elections. That's another topic already.
arrow055 said:
Besides i doubt the communal riots would have ever extended to the rest of india had division of india not taken place.After all a majority of indian muslims never went to pakistan anyway.But the truth is we will never know.
If we will never know, then isn't it just as likely that the opposite could be true as well. I do know that if a fire is burning, you try to contain it otherwise it spreads. I still maintain this fire would have been uncontrollable from the get go.

arrow055 said:
But what we all do know is that the division of the country took place because of jinnah and his followers who belivers in the two nation theory and who only rose to prominence because of gandhi.Gandhi never really managed to achieve much for india......india's independence.....Ohh!!!that was achieved mainly thanks to hitler.....Gandhi just had to do one thing right---- to make sure things went smoothly when india achieved it's independence......and he and congress screwed that up!!
I notice the reliance on violence as being the real reason for the betterment of this country. Of course violence would attack the credibility of non-violence to make its point. When you can't touch the argument, attack the opponent's credibilty.
arrow055 said:
He was again responsible for making Nehru the PM when the congress party was in favour of making patel the PM.And this guy nehru was again responsible for many blunders.:mad: :mad: ....i don't even have to name them.... we all know what those are :rofl: :rofl:

So in the end india was much better off without gandhi.
i think the gist of what you said is that India would be better off without *another* gandhi in office. Again this would make for another topic.

Trying to stay on topic, ever notice how europe works nowadays, How sworn enemies that only 60 years ago were destroying each other are now almost working together economically & culturally.

How S.Africa managed to overcome its demons after brutal oppression ?

It would be very educational to undersand the mechanims used for reconciliation here.

Isn't it high time we did the same ?

I still think India+Pak have lots to gain economically, if they can put behind their troubled history.
 
I still think India+Pak have lots to gain economically, if they can put behind their troubled history.

Well, if by tht you mean we shud come together once again, then i wud differ..whatever happened in the past may have been bad but i still think it was good in the long run..only thing is, it cud have been a peaceful separation. I dont think we can come together anymore..India has its fair share of problems..it wud be difficult to cope with the added bundle from pakistan..and need i say, their problems are much more worse..hardliners, illiterates, religious bigotry..we are better off without them, to add to our own woes.. :lol:

The point is Pakistan is going back to anarchy..check out the news..there have been terrible riots in karachi in the past few days over the despotism of musharraf n the sacking of the chief justice... it wudnt be long before the country cud be ravaged in a civil war if something isnt done to contain the violence...or improve its political condition...tht doesnt seem to be happening in near future..:hap5: Its better we stay away from such a troubled state..:)
 
^Khaqistan is already a failed state, and we're only going to add one more to the growing list of such examples if our dirty-rotten pseudo-democratic system, along with its bureaucratic burden, isn't taken care of immediately.

We don't need any more of the Nehru-Gandhis, and we mustn't blindly follow the economic model of USA. IMO, USA is one big laboratory - where all sorts of cultural, economic, political and psychological experiments are being conducted on humans. We, unlike them, already have a very rich and long past to learn from.
 
Private Ryan said:
Well, if by tht you mean we shud come together once again,

You misunderstand, i am in no way suggesting re-unification.

I was referring mainly to trading, and afterwards re-opening of borders so there is exchange of people & culture.

But for that to happen, "trust" has to be built up and reconciliation is the first step towards it. The stumbling block as always is Kashmir.
 
Blr_p said:
I was referring mainly to trading, and afterwards re-opening of borders so there is exchange of people & culture.

But for that to happen, "trust" has to be built up and reconciliation is the first step towards it. The stumbling block as always is Kashmir.

there is an oft heard quote.."once bitten, twice shy.." :lol: Same is the case with India...building tht trust in the wake of the 1971 war, kargil etc. is really going to be an impossible task..and i agree totally with the Indian policy in this case..These buggers are not someone you can trust..by tht i mean Pakistanis and not any specific religion..so please..no offense..:)

As for Kashmir, its a pseudo stumbling block created by Pakistan propaganda machine..hell, do the people over there even care?? Its just a much publisized issue by the political parties to gather support and keep the fire burning.. Why dont they just start to believe in the ground reality and come to terms with the fact tht Kashmir is an integral part of India and tht this cause is not going to help them gain anything out of this irritatingly long and overdrawn fight...??

The moment they satrt to believe in it, they'll see tht there are no other issues plaguing the relations between the 2 countries... :hap5: Thts just a grudge fight going on in here..Pakistan shud rest easy with what they have and learn to manage it properly instead of trying to gather more trouble for themselves..learn to manage what you have first..it'll help them better in the long run instead on peeping in the neighbour's windows..:p
 
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