Frequent Restarts (even with brand new APC UPS)

arnuld

arnuld

Disciple
I have 6 years old computer with following config:
  • AMD Athlon II X3 440
  • Gigabyte GA-880GM-UD2H MOBO
  • Antec 430 Watts PSU (titled Earthwatts) non-PFC
  • Kingston 2x 2GB Dual-Channel DDR3 RAMs
  • 1 TB Samsung HDD
  • intex 19" LCD monitor

I have used it a lot, almost 10-20 hours a day in last 6 years, even in extremely high temperatures of Hyderabad (think 50 degree Celcius). 2 out of 6 years it ran without any UPS after APC UPS died, I did not buy new one because I really do not need any backup, it worked fine. Recently, it started giving automatic-restarts, sometimes 10 times in an hour and sometimes 1 times in 1 day. Sometimes it will be in restart-loop (non-stop boot-restart-boot) and sometimes for few days it will work great without any restarts. I thought it is restarting randomly because of voltage-fluctuations, which are lot in my region. So I got myself a new APC Back-UPS 600 (stepped sine-wave). It still has not stopped restarting. 2nd thing I observed, if there is a power-cut or something instead of giving me backup, it restarts. On every power outage, it restarts. On one occasion

I thought UPS is gone but now before I spend money on new PSU, like I spent on the UPS I did not need, I want to know for sure if MOBO/RAM is gone or something ?
 
looks like - 1: either ups is slow to go on battery or 2: your psu is too sensitive to that < 3ms voltage loss when ups goes on battery. So that 3ms blank period makes it restart the pc for no reason.

for UPS:
if you're running windows and have installed the apc ups software, then check its settings. make sure you keep sensitivity of ups to medium or high.

another point, is are you using a surge protector from ups to computer? ideally you should remove any surge protector and directly attach computer to ups outlets.

regarding the psu, i don't know how to check it other than turn off the power switch when ups is connected to switch board. When ups is on and pc is connected to ups directly, if it restarts then you can blame psu or ups. if you have another pc and it does not restart when switch is turned off at switch board, then something is wrong with the psu. Another method is to put a led or cfl bulb on an adapter and connect it to ups power outlet. If it blinks once during change of power to battery, then ups is slow.
 
I'm not really well versed in this topic but this is my knowledge (might be real or total bullshit) on the workings of a ups. Lets hope someone more knowledgeable than me chimes in on this topic.

Dirty power means mains power with noise, brownouts, voltage spikes, low power factor etc. UPS goes on battery during such dirty power times. Like if voltage suddenly increased to 260 volts, it will go on battery to save connected equipment. Or it can be something unseen like it will remove noises and small duration of power going off like less than a second. The main component - battery provides the clean power here which is converted from 12v to 230v sine wave using a transformer.

So if a ups is unable to do these things its supposed to do, then it means it will just provide dirty input power as output power without those required filters or modifications. Reasons could be anything due to old age, quality of components or corrosion of battery insides or terminals, transformer switching, etc. Any of these things could lead to noise or spikes or intermittent output voltage etc.

Edit: let me give a personal experience of good power vs not so good power.
I just installed a mains voltage stabilizer at home. Difference was not noticeable for me until i installed and uninstalled the stabilizer.

When it is just the mains power - led lights are brighter than usual, fans are noisy and sometimes their speed goes up / down irrespective of regulator settings. Appliance like refrigerator are noisy - like we can hear it running in next room etc. Washing machine similarly makes noise while spinning etc.

When the voltage stabilizer was installed - same fans made not much noise even at full speed. All fans were running quietly at full speed instead of like making huge air noise and such. Led light were less bright probably because they got exact voltage instead of higher voltage. Washing machine and fridge became quieter during operation. Couldn't even hear the fridge unless we were standing next to it and it was going at full speed. I don't know if you’ve heard motor bikes with fine tuned engines. It was like hearing one of those.

So the voltage stabilizer provided - stabilized output voltage and most importantly a good quality power and high power factor for these items to run like they were intended to run on.
 
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Great! So if we install stabilizer and then connect ups to it then it will be providing clean power to the attached peripherals to the ups.

But what if the overall house itself is receiving dirty power? How to fix that?
Can on one specific one house get dirty power, I highly doubt it. Coz if its in one house it might be for the whole building right?

And can dirty power occur due to very old wiring and faulty rccb, mcb or a meter??

Also, how to convince the zonal electricity authority about it as they might simply overpower you stating everything is ok as far as all peripherals are working and the excess sound coming is due to your devices fault and aging etc etc.
 
nRiTeCh said:
Great! So if we install stabilizer and then connect ups to it then it will be providing clean power to the attached peripherals to the ups.

But what if the overall house itself is receiving dirty power? How to fix that?
Can on one specific one house get dirty power, I highly doubt it. Coz if its in one house it might be for the whole building right?

And can dirty power occur due to very old wiring and faulty rccb, mcb or a meter??

Also, how to convince the zonal electricity authority about it as they might simply overpower you stating everything is ok as far as all peripherals are working and the excess sound coming is due to your devices fault and aging etc etc.
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If entire house is receiving dirty power, you need to install a mains stabilizer. Or you could buy individual low powered stabilizers for each appliance that requires it. Stabilizers work best only for motors and compressors since they up the power factor a lot. Lights that run off home ups are not that affected since the home ups already has noise filters and a good transformer in place along with a huge battery backup.

Yes, entire building(s) can get dirty power. Anything connected to main roadside transformer will get whatever power it outputs.

Dirty power can occur due to bad or old cut outs near mains, bad mcb's, switches and wiring too. In some cases, if wiring is too old and the plastic is hardened and beginning to fall off, it can lead to sparks. I've seen high voltage at junction box because one small aluminium shielding wire came an inch close to wire coming from transformer. Entire building was getting 400V or something and the wire bringing in mains power to building caught fire and blew up under concrete. Anything small can lead to unknown things.

Only thing you can convince zonal electricity authority is that you’re getting high or low voltage. Noises, etc are not their concern. That's just our first world problem because we are aware of it and have too many appliances that cost a lot inside our homes. If we didn't have computer ups and just had a laptop, we wouldn't be trying to get perfect power to our homes. At the most we would have put a stabilizer for fridge or for ac if we were getting very low power to homes.
 
If you are getting dirty power, get a Servo based Mains stabilizer but only connect to equipment like motors and compressors. Most of the electronic components like TV, LED bulbs etc run easily on 110-230 V because they have their own SMPS. Same goes for brushless motor fans.
If you want to connect whole house, that can be done as well but you will have to increase the size of the stabilizer and servo stabilizers are expensive.
 
6pack said:
If entire house is receiving dirty power, you need to install a mains stabilizer. Or you could buy individual low powered stabilizers for each appliance that requires it. Stabilizers work best only for motors and compressors since they up the power factor a lot. Lights that run off home ups are not that affected since the home ups already has noise filters and a good transformer in place along with a huge battery backup.

Yes, entire building(s) can get dirty power. Anything connected to main roadside transformer will get whatever power it outputs.

Dirty power can occur due to bad or old cut outs near mains, bad mcb's, switches and wiring too. In some cases, if wiring is too old and the plastic is hardened and beginning to fall off, it can lead to sparks. I've seen high voltage at junction box because one small aluminium shielding wire came an inch close to wire coming from transformer. Entire building was getting 400V or something and the wire bringing in mains power to building caught fire and blew up under concrete. Anything small can lead to unknown things.

Only thing you can convince zonal electricity authority is that you’re getting high or low voltage. Noises, etc are not their concern. That's just our first world problem because we are aware of it and have too many appliances that cost a lot inside our homes. If we didn't have computer ups and just had a laptop, we wouldn't be trying to get perfect power to our homes. At the most we would have put a stabilizer for fridge or for ac if we were getting very low power to homes.
Click to expand...

rdst_1 said:
If you are getting dirty power, get a Servo based Mains stabilizer but only connect to equipment like motors and compressors. Most of the electronic components like TV, LED bulbs etc run easily on 110-230 V because they have their own SMPS. Same goes for brushless motor fans.
If you want to connect whole house, that can be done as well but you will have to increase the size of the stabilizer and servo stabilizers are expensive.
Click to expand...

How about installing a CVR (Constant Voltage Regulator). Will that be feasible? I am also facing the same issue with the power flickering to high and low voltage constantly in a gap of 10 to 15 minutes.
 
technofast said:
How about installing a CVR (Constant Voltage Regulator). Will that be feasible? I am also facing the same issue with the power flickering to high and low voltage constantly in a gap of 10 to 15 minutes.
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Isn't CVR even more expensive?
For most purposes, a servo stabilizer would be accurate and fast enough. There is also option for static stabilizer but even they are very expensive.
 
First thing (which I suppose you have done it already?) - to clean the computer and then disconnect and reconnect all the cables(power/data), Reinsert the RAM also.
If still the problem does not go away, then most probably PSU or Motherboard is going bad. If after disconnecting from Mains, and purely on UPS power, the problem is not there, then most probably PSU is gone bad and can't handle voltage fluctuations (but same can also be true for Motherboard also).
PS: Above is just my educated guess.
 
And what if we opt for Inverter for the complete house? Do we still need those stabilizers and etc stuff?
Or can inverter store dirty power without getting itself affected internally and provide clean power output for any connected appliances??
 
inverter is nothing but an UPS only, but earlier they used to have a time lag switching between batteries vs mains (with less voltage fluctuation sensitivity), so sensitive stuff like computer could not handle and would restart.
Nowadays, all UPS have options to go into higher sensitivity mode (i .e UPS mode). You can go for this option, if in your area fluctuation/low or very high voltage problem is comparatively less, other wise in UPS mode, most of the time inverter will be Battery mode.

For example - In Noida, due to low voltage problem, If I set the inverter to UPS mode, then even though electricity was there, but Inverter was still running on battery for hours. But in Hyderabad, no issue as such. hence since last 3 years, I'm using only inverter(in UPS mode) and not the APC ups.
 
technofast said:
How about installing a CVR (Constant Voltage Regulator). Will that be feasible? I am also facing the same issue with the power flickering to high and low voltage constantly in a gap of 10 to 15 minutes.
Click to expand...

Depends on what the usage is. If only for computer, it is feasible if your budget is 4-5k. If for whole house, you're looking at around 15-20k rupees just for single phase cvt of 2KVA. In that money you can install similar 2KVa rating Online double conversion UPS for whole house which can clean and convert mains to correct output voltage and still maintain battery backup time.
 
You should remove all attached devices, clean the connectors, and plug it all back. The RAM/CPU/wire/ATX connector. Press them in flush. Maybe "chip-creep" is causing this and not voltage.
 
May be silly but check...

Check Main Power Cable from Meter Box to your Home/Office for No Cut (check if someone cut in between for power theft etc.)

Motherboard for Caps Leak/puff etc.
 
6pack said:
It should not flicker. Flickering means dirty power output from ups and it should be repaired / replaced.
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Forgot to mention, I had this APC Back-UPS RS 1500VA model which was scrapped 2 yrs ago.
I changed its batteries and just on batteries it used to give me 30-35mins for my whole pc setup.

Then during power cuts at night I started using a single cfl (no pc no other attachments) but the after plugging in the cfl it used to momentarily flicker and this flickering would go so much that it used to disturb our vision. It used to variate up and down or so.
Then tried syska and phillips led bulb or various wattage still same issue.

But on pc it never used to give such jitters as monitored by various monitoring tools for all 12v to 5v rails.

Dont know what was wrong with using bulbs as its a rather unusual behavior.

Even we our phones used to get charged properly in designated time intervals as like AC power.

The ups died after 10 months. Died in sense its relay or rectifier went kaput and the electricians werent able to find the exact matching one for it. Gave up after 2 months of hunt.
 
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