Home Electrical Overhaul.

agm_105

Disciple
I would be changing my home wiring from plain aluminium to copper :clap: ...also putting up new points and stuff. this over 2BHK and covering 72 points in all..also have a APC inverter ..the qoute that i got from my electrician is going just above 50K including the labor and material. :S . Is this ok ?? he told us that he would be using 16 model MCB + ELCB and good stuff.

any pointers to what i should look out for ??
any products that you recommend...
 
Buy your own material. Or you will land up with substandard/thin copper etc. Dont trust the local electrician. Buy Finolex copper wire of sufficient thickness. Pay him for labour generously.

Copper is going to be the most expensive component. Again the charges vary as per length rather than the No. of points.

Remember that the thick copper will repay for itself over time. Less energy is wasted in resistance. Moreover you will not have any busted wires incase of overload. Also there can be a difference of 5% conductivity in copper because local people tend to add phosphorous to deoxidise copper. This reduces conductivity. Finolex uses pure 99.98% copper wire bar from Sterlite etc.

Going for with material contract is not a good idea.
 
+1^ go for labor contract get the best quality wires from lohar chawl if you want it cheaper get a list and do not take the electrcian with you when you go shopping as they signal to shopkeeper and the shop keeper increases the prices of stuff keeping a margin for the electrician.
 
^^ I agree about the material contract.

A few tips:

Normally, the supply company provides a 1m return run from the meter to your main switch. This line is your limiting factor, along with the meter and the wiring to it, as it is locked with a tamper-proof seal. If required, the first thing is to get this line fixed by notifying your local authority, they will change it up for a nominal fee. The older lines used aluminum single-core as loads were light. The last thing you want is to burn the wire from the meter, so ensure that is able to carry the entire load of your home.

The wire should be at least one run of 7/20 for every 10 amperes on the main line and a 4mm for earth. For a typical home, two runs will provide pretty much all the power you need. You can run a maximum of 25 amperes safely through 7/20, but at that load voltage droop becomes a problem after about 10 meters. 10/18 is much better and a single run should be able to carry about 30 amperes of load without sagging. 10mm flexible wire will also work fine, but I prefer the solid core wires for at least the main wiring upto the master distribution points. The older practice was to use separate runs for 'lighting' and 'power', but this is not strictly needed. For specialised applications a dedicated line may be considered - I have one for my audio system, for example.

Earth connection should not be compromised upon as it has to have very low impedance, or the user is under risk of electrical shock. Most electricians use very thin wire for this line. Earth should be returned to a copper bar planted in deep and moist soil for best protection. I repeat, do not neglect the earthing connection, it is a lifesaver.

At the master distribution point inside your home, install an earth leakage breaker on each active line - which means two lines if you have two runs. This disconnects the main supply when a current passes through the earth, indicating a faulty appliance or a user connected to the live supply line. After the earth breaker you should have separated the runs for each zone in your home, and install a separate overcurrent protector on each (called MCB by most electricians). For lighter load zones (say bedrooms and living rooms) use 6A MCB and for heavier zones use 16A MCB (kitchens, bathrooms and airconditioners). You probably know all this already, no harm in repeating it.

Finally - the exit points and associated switches are critical. When I first did my home a couple of decades ago I didn't really know as much as I do now, so we chose some really bad and cheap products. Of course as my power draw grew, I ended up having to change the entire thing in the affected rooms because of iffy contacts and melting (!) sockets and switches. It is fine because it lasted twenty years, but I guess I wouldn't do it again. Watch out for fakes, though. Too many of them around - Crabtree and Anchor are the only ones I'd trust, in that order.

No matter what material you buy or not, competency is a big issue with electricians. Be sure of yours, as I find that even if you pay a bit more for a good workman it evens out over time as you don't have to do things twice. This is extremely important, as pretty much anyone who can break electrical tape calls himself an electrician.

Good Luck.
 
Well use 10A MCB each for lighting/bedrooms,(since a vaccum cleaner can easily consume more then 6A),unless ofcourse the electrician connects all the plug point to heating circuit.
I use Legrand MCB of 10A for lighting and 20A MCB for heating and cooling.
Use finolux 2.5 SQmm FLAME RETARDANT wire for neutral and Live a 90Metre roll used to cost around 2500 a year ago ,you would need a pair of them in Red and Black.For Earth uses a 4 SQmm FLAME RETARDANT wire 90metre costs 3.5k.

A 32A RCBO will cost around 2.5k from legrand.

For switches use high quality ones preferably from Legrand or one the cheaper end of the scale from lisha.
They both have good screws for tighting the wire and it won't spilt a multi strand wire like the said finolux.
For fan regulator use a stepped one,i have used both the stepless ones conk off fast around 7 years.

Use two distribution boards one for lighting and one for heating,so that it will be easy to install the inverter only for the lighting circuit
 
@ mantoid

Yes i am firm on finolex ... my electrician suggested polycab which are a bit cheaper than finolex .

@ cranky

dude ur post is very good...it seems ur from this field .... yes he did qoute 4sqmm wire from the buliding mains till the MCB . the 7/20 thing did confuse me till i saw a thread in hifivison.com and i believe ur an active member there too.. so its clear to me . .. is 10/18 and XLPE cable the same ... :huh:

coming to MCB's he said he would install a 16A SPN double door db . .. so i went hunting again on the havell's site... its a jungle out there .. so i really dont know if its prewired or not ..or does it has a two smaller db's inside it. .. also i dnt know how to calculate the load on the main line ...i dont have many devices ... an LCD tv , 1kva inverter , PC ( c2d basic system ):( , kicten appliances ( grinder ,oven ,electric chimney, fridge .water purifier and etc ) , washing machine ,geyser, about 4 fans .. i would be getting 2 ac's and a dedicated audio system ... so keeping all this in mind what shud be the cable system from mains till the mcb and the internal wiring.

on the switches the only name that comes in mind is legrand if there is anything better than this ...let me know.

@ adder ..

awesome was the first word when i read the post ..i wanted some price margin before i actually go hunting in market ..and u gave me that ..really thankful.. now can ELCB be integrated in an MCB ...or maybe in the same distrubution box ( DB ) and is RCBO and ELCB the same thing:huh:...mostly i m looking at havells for MCB or maybe ABB ..

thank you again guys ...wud try to get a blueprint in a day or two ...:cool2:
 
Well 16A Single Pole Neutral,should be fine.

A distribution box will have a common live plate which will be connected to all the MCB bottom hole and in the upper hole you will need to connect the individual rooms Live wire .the neutral will have a common mounting road and so will earth.
You do get prewired distribution boxes.

For the Mains to MCB i would go with a 4 SQmm wire thats how i did it it .from MCB to rooms the 2.5 SQmm wire should be enough.

Your load is something like 4250watt assuming the WM does not have a heater built in and all appliances are running simultaneously,which i reality very rare and excluding the fridge and ACs which depends on the litre and cooling capacity.So if you have a 2x 1 ton ac you can add another 2500watt to it ,if you do want to run everything at once then i guess you will need a 6 SQmm wire costs 5.5k or more.

Switches i checked out every thing from lisha to anchor etc and found legrand to be good.

BTW i wired the entire floor my self and i ain't joking read about 10+ books about wiring and i am a DIY sell guy have tools from hammer drill to grinder to circular saw and a router all from bosch ,even cut the granite for kitchen hob my self.
 
^^ kool ...

i think i have to look more into MCB's ... and certainly i wouldnt be running all the equipments at once... only the PC ,fridge runs 24/7 and next one wud be TV which runs approx about 8 to 10 bours..not sure ... would you still recommend 6 sqmm wire . ...

i wish i could do the same.. but yea DIY has its own fun... could forward me any links for good books ..
 
@TS: No, I'm not on that forum any more. I left - and am surprised you can still see my posts, because I specifically asked a mod to remove them and bar my ID - my content was being misused, without permission and mods were not sorting the matter out. Let's not bring that painful memory back :)

XLPE is a kind of insulation, got nothing to do with wire guage. The references are either for the thickness (4-6-10mm), or the kind of wire used (7/20 means 7 strands of 20AWG, 10/18 is 10 strands of 18AWG). More strands = better current carrying capability, and lesser AWG = thicker wire = better current carrying capability. XLPE is a reference to low-smoke insulation, and can be available in thicknesses from 1mm to 15mm for domestic wire, or with thicker steel wire for company cabling (the runs to the transformer, usually buried).

4mm wire has a max rating of 25 amperes, so I would not use a single run for more than 15A. It's always good to have some reserve, this keeps the sag down and the house generally safe. I would not use anything less than 10mm for a single run, or two runs of 4mm if you are using flexible wire. A single run of 4mm will be fine for lighting, and a single run of 6mm for most power appliances. Just to put it in perspective, I have one run of 6mm wire for one large AC, one run of 4mm for my audio equipment, and one run of 4mm for all the lighting, the refrigerator, and the small bedroom AC. This last line is the original line, and is due for replacement this winter to distribute the load better.

Flexible wire has a soft PVC sheath, so unless it is specifically rated to run in-wall I would not use it at all. It is OK in an exposed conduit (the one you can open for inspection). Rats get through the soft PVC in no time, as do cockroaches. If you want the wiring to last a couple of years, it will be fine, but if you want it to last after your electrician has gone to heaven, look at proper in-wall rated wire.

Looking at what you will run, it's better to have four lines. One 6mm line for the aircons (they can share the line, even if you run both together). One 4mm line for your power appliances. One 4mm line for your PC and entertainment center. And one 4mm line for for the lighting.

Ensure you have enough outlets, and run power appliances (including vacs) off the power lines only. I can't stress how important it is to keep power appliances firmly separated from low-load regions. Circuit breakers should trip on appropriate overload, so you should size your load according to the wiring. I would not run a 800 watt vac off the lighting line at all, or through an extension cord unless I made the extension specifically to cope with a 1000 watt+ load.

The way I would do it is bring the 4 lines on the distribution board and run them through 4 ELCBs. If you hesitate to do this because of cost, locate the ELCB at the main switch and start your wire runs from that point. This way only one ELCB is needed, but you need it to be rated to 30 amps at least. I always believe in margin for error, so I would use an industrial 60A unit personally.

You cannot combine an ELCB and a MCB. The ELCB detects leakage current to earth, and an MCB is a self-sensing, self-defeat overload switch. You should have one large 16A MCB for each wire run (4 in your case), and a smaller 6A MCB on the lighting distribution board. If you have cosmetic issues with this, the smaller MCBs can be located in the main switch box in the house. This way you can save on one 16A MCB.

The concept to remember is a tree and branches. Every time you create a new joint, you need to protect the new branch separately. As you go outwards from the tree, the branch gets thinner - so current carrying capacity will and should drop with distance. A circuit breaker on the far end of the branch should be triggered to less current than the breaker at the trunk of the tree. It's actually pretty simple.

And no, I don't work in this field, this is only my hobby :)
 
Well i read books bought from book store and those books are like 10 year old which my dad bought when he rewired the ground floor and i did the same on other floor 10 years later,i too do this has a hobby,mine was wired in accordance with Karnataka Electricty board guidlines.

I use One ELCB per meter,in my house i have 2 meters and each has a RCBO.
In my 2bedroom house each room gets a 10A mcb for lighting.
heating/cooling high load lines in each room ,kitchen get a 20A mcb each .

@cranky
adding 4 ELCB would turn out to be quite expensive,a 32A RCBO only costs 2.6k.

here is my setup in the ground floor its some 10+years old all are MDS branded its now AKA Legrand .
from left 32A rcbo,3 x 20A MCB ,5X 10A MCB. out of which a 20A and a 10A is for spare not connected.
pic014w.jpg
 
Ok ..sorry for the late update.. here is the a rough layout.
so from the DP or the meter to MCB there will be 6mm wire . from MCB to different equipments there will be separate wiring. e.g for geyser and AC it will be 4mm each . for lighting purposes 2.5mm . i would reserve a 4mm for computer and lcd tv. in regards with the distrubution box and MCB's he suggested one more brand called Hager. also he said that leon switches carries a lifetime warranty on switches and if ever any switch goes bad he wud replace it for free :huh: ...however one thing i coudnt understand from cranky's post ..the 4mm wire carrying 15 amps load and the sag...do u think the 6mm wire is enuff for whole house.??
 

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If it's under a foot or two, it'll be fine. It depends on the length - obviously this way the master MCB will be very close to the meter. Normally the supply company gives you in and out from the meter with one run of 7/20, but not more than two feet of it so even that is fine as the resistance in that short a length is not something to worry about. Total voltage sag depends on wire length :) so for the top floor of a 4-storey house (like mine) it will be very different from the ground floor!

You should also remember that I normally advise loading a PC power supply to a maximum of 70%, and I always buy a little more than I need in case of emergencies or not at all - so I generally play a little safe.

Ideally you need to look at a resistance chart for different wire guages (here's one - Electrical House Wiring from India Domestic Cable Industrial Cable PCM cable Electric Wires, Screen Cables, PVC Insulated Electric Wires, Fibre Glass Cables) and compute the voltage drop after factoring in the load and the wire length.

Good Luck.
 
Well i recently installed the Havells one its good,but not as good as the Legrand range.
About the wire i have been using a 4mm wire for like 10 years or so for entire house during summer times the load usually peaks around 5000watt.
So a 6mm wire will be more then enough.
You don't need a 4mm wire for your PC a 2.5mm wire is more then enough,a lcd tv won't consume more then 1Amp even if its 52".
 
@adder: The illustrative difference here is that the lower the sag, the less the consumed electricity. Remember the 'wire' is also part of the load.

for example, I changed out my 10-year old 1.5T AC for a new 2T split unit and noticed a slight difference in my electric bill (marginally downwards) for a couple of months. It already had a dedicated 7/20 line, about 40 meters including twists and turns (80m total for two runs). I changed that out to 6mm wire and a shorter run (straight along the front of the house) - the new length was 25m (50m total). I calculated the additional reduction in power consumption *of the wire alone* was about 50% - say around 15 watts - you can calculate this yourself using the wire resistance chart (7/20 is about 10% more conductive than 4mm wire) and a load of 2000 watts for the AC. However, my electric bill actually showed me a reduction of about Rs 50 a month, which is not really trivial as it was power that was being wasted in the wire at that current draw.

It's not a question of whether anything will run or not at a specced wire diameter, it is a question of how well and at what cost. You could argue that the small savings override the cost difference, and you would be right if you were looking at a short-term period (say, 10 years). Last I checked though, energy costs were rising year on year, and our lifetimes are longer than ten years :)

4mm flexible wire is specced to 25Amps exposed and 20 amps enclosed. That's 4600 watts minimum, plenty enough for most homes really. It will take momentary overloads, and 5000 seems reasonably close to the safe limits. However do consider that at a wiring distance of 25meters (50m wire), the wire resistance is 0.25 ohms and at a draw of 20Amps you are losing about 100 watts inside the wire itself. Dropping this to a 6mm wire will drop this to 66 watts, and going to two runs of 4mm will cut it in half. If you simply add one parallel line of 6mm at this length you will cut this wasted power to 40 watts. Removing a 60 watt consumption from your house forever is not as trivial as it seems. Sure, there may be cheaper ways to do it but nothing as permanent. It's also true that maximum savings are applied at maximum loads.

As for sag, once you are drawing 20A through 50m of 4mm wire, you're looking at a 5V voltage drop in the wire at max load. That is (IMO) a pretty severe drop not counting the fluctuation from the power station - which can be pretty harsh at the best of times.

I think the TS will now need to bring up a calculator and run a few numbers using Ohm's law and the provided figures. That and a knowledge of load consumption and wire length will tell him what he needs to use.
 
cranky fully agree with that.

Which is why In my house when it was rewired i didn't use the old conduit pipes,made the distance as short as possible.power chiseled the roof just for laying out new pipes for the wiring ,since it was impossible to fit the wires with the original conduit pipes and layout.
The main 4MM wire from the meter to the ELCB is less then 20m,from their multiple wires goes 1.5 metre up to the roof and from there goes in straight lines to each room running with one bend to their respective rooms ,offcourse once it enters the room it goes back to some of the old conduit pipes for light and fan only.But sadly on the ground floor no choice but to use the old conduit pipes and some the long way external option.

As far as energy saved i use only CFL bulbs and power LED bulbs,don't leave any devices on standy by,again its not about money but saving power as much as possible since the power cuts are just growing and by doing so i am also also going green.
 
well i havent read all the tech gyan given in here, but what ever switches you buy look for a discount of anywere between 50 - 60% off MRP. i suggest you stick to north west switches , they dont look any fancy but workmanship is great. legrand as i see some mentioned in here has around about 60% off from MRP.

Also for wiring, there is nothing like finolex wire would be only good, there are ample of brands that are giving in good wire, havells , modi , kalinga , are some of them, even on wire look at good discounts from MRP. Buy smartly some of the branded wires cost 2 x the price of some other brands.
 
adder said:
Which is why In my house when it was rewired i didn't use the old conduit pipes,made the distance as short as possible.power
Out of curiosity how would you reuse the old conduit pipes, they are in the wall aren't they ?
 
^^One simply attaches the old wire to the new, and pulls at the other end. I assume your question is about replacing wire inside existing conduits. The layout of wire is figured out first, usually by opening up the joint boxes and tugging at wire ends.
 
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