India Russia Disagreement over Vande Bharat Train Design

[solo_wing]

India Russia Disagreement over Vande Bharat Train Design

I hope this is right place to discuss this also since we discussing all kinds of geopolitics deals, policies and all.


So point is ...Are we not even capable enough of designing and manufacturing our own Trains in India?

What am I missing?
Every second thing we making is got some foreign company or govt. involved in .

Chinese are testing Maglev trains and we are asking Russia to add one more toilet to our train....hadh hai .

 

[adder]

Because russia has lot of rupee in the Indian banks idle, they want to invest those in India. Their is a trade imbalance with russia because of the oil imports and other commodities like sunflower oil/seeds, fertilizers, Miltary hardware etc.

Putin gave a long list of things that their country needs. Not many Indian companies are willing to risk being sanctioned from the world bully which is the USA.

 

[solo_wing]

Because russia has lot of rupee in the Indian banks idle, they want to invest those in India. Their is a trade imbalance with russia because of the oil imports and other commodities like sunflower oil/seeds, fertilizers, Miltary hardware etc.

Putin gave a long list of things that their country needs. Not many Indian companies are willing to risk being sanctioned from the world bully which is the USA.

so India will again be paying in rupees only for these trains right?
How exactly will it help Russian with already excess rupee.

 

[adder]

so India will again be paying in rupees only for these trains right?
How exactly will it help Russian with already excess rupee.

They will get better returns than the bank, I think once sanctions ease off they may cash in. But russia will most likely also wait till a BRICS currency is made and they will start joint ventures with more Indian companies.

Russia-Western relationship is burnt, every time a Russia hating western political party comes to power. So their dollar and euro reserves can be frozen or just outright stolen. So for them global south is where they want to invest and trade .

As of last month, the last remaining Russian bank as been sanctioned, so no more paying them with $ or Euros.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Don't know what to say, here I thought Indian engineers developed it ingenuously with our own technology.
Never even cared to imagine this is a collaborative venture with us depending on foreign country, crap ! I mean, even for getting a license to crap !!!
Indians in r/indianrail or whatsoever forum were too egoistically boisterous, our leaders showcased this as a symbol of our indigenous progress, denied or delayed these trains in political rivalry to states, what-not. All the while dependent on whims of foreign countries to do this ! /facepalm
Enough news for today, ty op for this info...

 

[solo_wing]

Don't know what to say, here I thought Indian engineers developed it ingenuously with our own technology.
Never even cared to imagine this is a collaborative venture with us depending on foreign country, crap ! I mean, even for getting a license to crap !!!
Indians in r/indianrail or whatsoever forum were too egoistically boisterous, our leaders showcased this as a symbol of our indigenous progress, denied or delayed these trains in political rivalry to states, what-not. All the while dependent on whims of foreign countries to do this ! /facepalm
Enough news for today, ty op for this info...

Same here. I use to think it was completely done in India.

After reading this news I am very very disappointed.

From what I have understood is the reason Indian govt. Don't get involved in manufacturing themselves is because by involving third parties they can make huge cuts in bribes and illegal money and incase something fails ...they don't even have to take blame and can put it on contracted company or people.

Woh Chota Ambani ko Rafale banane ka project mil reha tha...Bas kuch bhi.


Which is why roads and bridges and defence contracts are given to very new companies with literally no experience because they offer huge cuts behind the scene.

Sab chor hai ..Churchill( not a fan at all) but was right when he said something like ...Once we go , India will be ruled by goons and dacoits.

Exactly same is happening.

No vision for the country.

Make in India..ghanta make in India.
Can't make a train boogie also...even the speed of these Vande Bharat train is bullshit.
Only reason they seem faster is because they get signal on priority to pass the stations and they have fewer stops and stops are also not long.

 

[dpandey]

Where is the disagreement?

The Indian team has requested a change in design and the Russian team wants some more money/time. This is business as usual in the world of engineering.

 

[solo_wing]

Where is the disagreement?

The Indian team has requested a change in design and the Russian team wants some more money/time. This is business as usual in the world of engineering.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...vande-bharat-sleeper-deal/article68898235.ece

This article has little more info.


So In the initial design the Indian Railways didn't even add pantry ...now how could India Railways miss that.

Every train in India since British has pantry cars because of how long the distances are and to feed thousands of travellers for 2-3 days journey .

Question is How did they miss the most basic thing here?.

And then given Russian opportunity to ask for more money .

As per the article above they even signed the contract with them and then made several big changes.

So Russians are quite fair in their asking for more money.

even giving projects to other countries is poorly managed.

 

[blr_p]

I use to think it was completely done in India.

That's the understanding we have. Nothing has changed

Russia eyes India for train manufacturing to meet some domestic demand | India News - Times of India

India News: Russia seeks to invest in and expand train and component manufacturing within India to fulfill its domestic needs. Russian railway company TMH express

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

TMH is the major stakeholder in Kinet Railway Solutions, which has signed approximately Rs 55,000 crore contract with Indian Railways to produce 1,920 Vande Bharat sleeper coaches and maintain them for 35 years. Lipa said they are “not looking at getting any supply from Russia” for Vande Bharat project.

“We found basic suppliers within India or some other countries which are more or less oriented for the relationship between India and Russia,” he said while claiming that the current sanctions will not have any implications on the project.

Not only are they making in India

The CEO of TMH, Kirill Lipa told a group of Indian journalists at the company’s headquarters in Moscow, “The current interest rate in India is very different from other countries. So, we are interested and ready to invest in India. We are interested in developing several facilities in India, which are capable of providing certain components and we think some of them can be supplied to the Russian market as well.”

In the future there are export possibilities.

I don't know why you create unnecessary drama

 

[dpandey]

https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...vande-bharat-sleeper-deal/article68898235.ece

(The correspondent was in Russia at the invitation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Russia, and Transmashholding)

Question is How did they miss the most basic thing here?.

I would like to hear the other side too.

 

[solo_wing]

That's the understanding we have. Nothing has changed

Russia eyes India for train manufacturing to meet some domestic demand | India News - Times of India

India News: Russia seeks to invest in and expand train and component manufacturing within India to fulfill its domestic needs. Russian railway company TMH express

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Not only are they making in India

In the future there are export possibilities.

I am not even understanding what is the need of getting third country involved ( other than for components)when it is being said from day 1 that it is so proudly being shared on every public forum that this is indigenous built project.

I don't know why you create unnecessary drama

Even for making some design changes diplomatic level discussions is taking place and you talk about drama.

I would like to hear the other side too.

Yes..same here. Even I am trying to connect the points as matter unfolds.
Will share more articles incase I find something interesting.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Remember reading somewhere that pantry will not be present in these trains due to several reasons, rather already prepared food will be distributed at set locations. Wondering what changed.
Speed of these trains is also partially due to traffic free tracks specially provided, by holding up and delaying other trains a lot. People then pay extra to reach without delay, safety and better environment.

 

[solo_wing]

Remember reading somewhere that pantry will not be present in these trains due to several reasons, rather already prepared food will be distributed at set locations. Wondering what changed.
Speed of these trains is also partially due to traffic free tracks specially provided, by holding up and delaying other trains a lot. People then pay extra to reach without delay, safety and better environment.

But it was stupid decision to not have pantry in the first place.

And suddenly they have realized it and not want a pantry car.

Already prepared foods means trains will have to halt longer at certain stations to get those good distributed.

Beside luggage coach is also now being added.

This should have been a first priority because unlike mostly Europeans( West to some extent) we Indians travel very heavy.
I have even seen Japanese travelling bit heavy though.
Indian family of 2 -3 having 6-8 bags.

Me alone carry 2-3 bags most of the time.
It is in our Indian DNA to never travel light( maybe it is changing ) but as of now still 80% Indians definitely need big luggage storage in trains .

 

[TEUser2K1]

But it was stupid decision to not have pantry in the first place.

Probably considering this is a lighter and high speed train compared to our existing heavy cranky ones, the materials used, etc.; the safety aspect.
Add to this our general tendency to be uncouth and unclean. Visiting pantry and staff behavior in long distance trains will haunt us, not seen much in YT videos though, should be a new trend. So, authorities may have had a wishful thinking of keep these trains clean to the extend basically possible.
Ready food can easily be transferred within short time in crates if executed properly. This inbuilt canteen requirement might be a push by some big contractor too, for their own selfish reasons.
Indians from lower middle class travel only occasionally in train, luggage is important, so that part I can understand.

 

[solo_wing]

Probably considering this is a lighter and high speed train compared to our existing heavy cranky ones, the materials used, etc.; the safety aspect.
Add to this our general tendency to be uncouth and unclean. Visiting pantry and staff behavior in long distance trains will haunt us, not seen much in YT videos though, should be a new trend. So, authorities may have had a wishful thinking of keep these trains clean to the extend basically possible.
Ready food can easily be transferred within short time in crates if executed properly. This inbuilt canteen requirement might be a push by some big contractor too, for their own selfish reasons.

Good point..

Indians from lower middle class travel only occasionally in train.

Indians from all classes travel on trains.
That is why we have so much of different coaches in same train.

General class( mainly for labour poor class).
Sleeper class( low middle class)
3E/3A( middle-upper middle class)

2A and 1A ( upper class).


Flights infrastructure alone cannot take the load of so many travelers in India.
That is why upper class still have to travel by train beside convience of extra luggage and getting down in between station ( hundreds of km away from main city airport)

 

[kiran6680]

Every train in India since British has pantry cars because of how long the distances are and to feed thousands of travellers for 2-3 days journey .

I have been to multiple trains, even about 8 hours, with no pantry. And there was no food stored in advance either. Even tea and basic snacks were provided by illegal vendors which board the train at signals. This was in 2013-2017 or so.

Yes, they were not "fashionable" trains like Vande Bharat etc., but they had reservation and AC compartment.

 

[solo_wing]

I have been to multiple trains, even about 8 hours, with no pantry. And there was no food stored in advance either. Even tea and basic snacks were provided by illegal vendors which board the train at signals. This was in 2013-2017 or so.

Yes, they were not "fashionable" trains like Vande Bharat etc., but they had reservation and AC compartment.

8 hours is not a long distance by Indian standards.
Indian train journey can be on average 1.5 days -3 days.

That is because usually long distance trains are made to cover as many stations as possinle ( even if it means taking bit of diversion a little from generally straight shorter routes) for passengers to get down at their different destinations.

That is why tickets are hard to find also .
Indian Railways have reduced number of trains since Covid drastically and still not able to bring them back the way it was.

Vande Bharat is also able to cut short the timings because it is mostly going on straight routes.

 

[kiran6680]

8 hours is not a long distance by Indian standards.
Indian train journey can be on average 1.5 days -3 days.

???
I was replying to "every train"

Every train in India since British has pantry cars

Nobody in the train stays hungry and thirsty for 8 hours, so this is disingenuous to call 8 hours as suddenly short journey. For the purpose of pantry, 8 hours is long. For the purpose of crossing India's length and breadth, it is short. "Long" is subjective.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Nobody in the train stays hungry and thirsty for 8 hours, so this is disingenuous to call 8 hours as suddenly short journey.

Happened with me in Duronto Express during it's initial days, trip from south to Mumbai. These trains have very few stops, the food present in the train got rancid. It was a bad episode to remember.
Things have progressed a lot these days.

 

[solo_wing]

Happened with me in Duronto Express during it's initial days, trip from south to Mumbai. These trains have very few stops, the food present in the train got rancid. It was a bad episode to remember.
Things have progressed a lot these days.

have seen shortage of food and water quite a few times but this was mostly during covid time.