Maintenance Bill amount can be reversed or not?

[nRiTeCh]

That what I said. It was optional before now owing to the reasons I mentioned where the members are reluctant to make contributions owing to participation excuses, now maximum societies have started including functional event amount as well in a separate bracket in maintenance charges itself. One can ask for a clear receipt mentioning subsequent charges.

For one hand I feel its a good gesture as it is due to some reluctant people the people willing to able to celebrate such events are laid back owing to lack of interest and funds.
And even if they do it within their own contributions, the reluctant members then still shamefully attend such functions even though they didnt contribute nor offered any helping hands. They just walk in freely shamelessly and enjoy, eat, dance and go home. The big hearted organizers will anyways wont just disallow such members solely as they didnt contribute etc. as they feels its a societies function.

Well and the next time when organizers approach these same lamers, again same old story repeats.

So I personally feel one time yearly charges are good but again with proper consideration and without burning a hole and nowhere some random insane rates as if its a politico stint or broadcasting on some national network.

@John4321 100 Rs per month is fine per flat. Now how they utilize it is altogether a different question. You can ask for the balance sheet anytime to get a clear insight. I thing the excess might be going into some Surplus Reserves. Now how reserves, sinking and excess funds are handled it differs for every society. Again, if the reserves are full or way sufficient, they shouldnt again charge the same 100 bucks next year but it should be reduced considerably depending on their ratio of calculations.

In my old society in Mumbai we caught red-handed the sole committee members boozing with the remaining excess amount late night in society offices & on terraces. We shot the videos and threatened them. A big issue was raised, everything was exposed in a mjor meeting and all members were stripped off the committee forever aka lifetime. A new new committee was formed via voting and now it is in hands of much younger people with of course few oldies to include.

^^ Contributions for festivals or celebrations etc cannot be collected as part of maintenance at all. Its illegal and can be challenged in a court and the society made to pay compensation.

Of course. But wants to go through the hassles of police or court? Today nobody wants to take these steps even on personal front, forget society matters.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

That what I said. It was optional before now owing to the reasons I mentioned where the members are reluctant to make contributions owing to participation excuses, now maximum societies have started including functional event amount as well in a separate bracket in maintenance charges itself. One can ask for a clear receipt mentioning subsequent charges.

It should be optional. Forcing people to pay for celebrations is absurd. No wonder the societies in cities like Mumbai have become cesspools of illegal bye-laws and bullying.

And even if they do it within their own contributions, the reluctant members then still shamefully attend such functions even though they didnt contribute nor offered any helping hands. They just walk in freely shamelessly and enjoy, eat, dance and go home. The big hearted organizers will anyways wont just disallow such members solely as they didnt contribute etc. as they feels its a societies function.

Well and the next time when organizers approach these same lamers, again same old story repeats.

That's down to the incompetence of the organizers. Create a group of sorts for celebrations, take voluntary payments to pool money, issue membership coupons and allow only those people to participate. In my township, there is a separate chat group for those who want to organize or participate in celebrations. We don't even allow any celebrations related discussions in the main chat group containing all owners/residents. Those who want to participate in group celebrations can join the dedicated group.

The problem that people have is not always about the money. Celebrations often tend to become the root cause of fights, discrimination, corruption, ego clashes among members and with other societies and almost always excessive wastage is involved.

Last to last year, there was a big fight among the residents over which date Ram Navami should be celebrated. It became a massive online and offline slug fest between northies vs southies and families vs families. In Whatsapp alone the slugfest went over 4000+ posts in a matter of hours. That is the tipping point for putting a ban on all celebrations related discussions in the main group. Come Ganesh Chavithi and in many townships, the size of the Ganesh statue bought is turned into a "who has the bigger d**" ego clash of sorts.

There are many Hindu festivals which are celebrated lavishly, but a lot of Hindu residents won't obviously show the same eagerness for festivals of other religions. In my own society, several lac's are spent over each of about a dozen Hindu festivals. Christmas is also celebrated, but its much scaled down and sort of like a pre-new year. Many Hindu residents don't want to have celebrations for Muslim festivals at all even through there seem to be several Muslim families around. Muslims seem to be fine with that too, but would that be the same if they are forced to pay for celebrations and then discriminated against using the majority vote as a tool. Its much more fair to let the participation and contributions decide whether a celebration is done or not.

I haven't seen a single instance when a group celebration has not lead to disharmony

Of course. But wants to go through the hassles of police or court? Today nobody wants to take these steps even on personal front, forget society matters.

Just a legal notice and and a law suit in consumer court/Cooperative societies court would be enough. In many cases, just the legal notice would be enough to stop the practice.

 

[nRiTeCh]

It should be optional. Forcing people to pay for celebrations is absurd. No wonder the societies in cities like Mumbai have become cesspools of illegal bye-laws and bullying.

Mumbai? Dude this is India-the pool of illegalities and it happens everywhere. People dont exists only in Mumbai. Its here in Pune, Nasik, Nagpur, Indore, Hyderabad etc.

And instead of contributing 1oos and 1000s for every event separately I dont see anything wrong charging just 100 bucks for all the year round celebration. Its is very pocket friendly.

Celebrations often tend to become the root cause of fights, discrimination, corruption, ego clashes among members and with other societies and almost always excessive wastage is involved.

Totally disagree. Whats your location? This sounds as if JK or border zone.

Last to last year, there was a big fight among the residents over which date Ram Navami should be celebrated. It became a massive online and offline slug fest between northies vs southies and families vs families. In Whatsapp alone the slugfest went over 4000+ posts in a matter of hours. That is the tipping point for putting a ban on all celebrations related discussions in the main group. Come Ganesh Chavithi and in many townships, the size of the Ganesh statue bought is turned into a "who has the bigger d**" ego clash of sorts.

There are many Hindu festivals which are celebrated lavishly, but a lot of Hindu residents won't obviously show the same eagerness for festivals of other religions. In my own society, several lac's are spent over each of about a dozen Hindu festivals. Christmas is also celebrated, but its much scaled down and sort of like a pre-new year. Many Hindu residents don't want to have celebrations for Muslim festivals at all even through there seem to be several Muslim families around. Muslims seem to be fine with that too, but would that be the same if they are forced to pay for celebrations and then discriminated against using the majority vote as a tool. Its much more fair to let the participation and contributions decide whether a celebration is done or not.

Well that is immaturity which leads to such differences and rants.
I have even heard some societies have permanently stopped celebrating anything. This is due to such people. So the common hall etc. stuff is simply locked for years in dust. No point staying in such posh crores of flats having zero enjoyment. More to that the swimming pools and even gyms are locked up gathering dust since years wing to no sufficient funds for cleaning and training etc.
So while buying an apartment you did paid some premium for such amenities and years down boom all in dust and so is your money.

I haven't seen a single instance when a group celebration has not lead to disharmony

Again may be thats in your township. Mostly what I have personally experienced and even heard about within my circle is peaceful celebrations except for those fee-takers taking their shameful shares with dignity.

To conclude or even justify my answers, I have stayed in more than 12 societies till date (min. 6 months) incl. on rent, at relatives & friends. I must say there was never anything unusual observed where I can say celebrations tend to become the root cause of fights, discrimination, corruption and even community discrimination. For me all my experiences were happy with good people around across religions and boundaries.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Mumbai? Dude this is India-the pool of illegalities and it happens everywhere. People dont exists only in Mumbai. Its here in Pune, Nasik, Nagpur, Indore, Hyderabad etc.

And instead of contributing 1oos and 1000s for every event separately I dont see anything wrong charging just 100 bucks for all the year round celebration. Its is very pocket friendly.

Whether its monthly or yearly, it should be voluntary as long as its for something that has nothing to do with maintenance of the society. Again its absurd to try and force it down the throats of people who are not interested just because people who are interested in celebrating would have more funds. I don't condone the behavior of people who don't pay and want to enjoy at other people's expense, but on the other side, this is an example of bullying in societies.

At the very least, I made sure that this kind of nonsense doesn't happen at my place.

Totally disagree. Whats your location? This sounds as if JK or border zone.

Hyderabad. I have heard similar experiences from my relatives, friends and colleagues. People fight and corruption does happen over events like these. You yourself just a bit back pointed out that India is the pool of illegalities. You seriously think that such immaturity and lawlessness doesn't translate to other things. I don't see what is not to believe about this. Again, you yourself pointed out how some folk had a booze party with money collected for celebrations. You yourself pointed out people who won't pay, but shameless enough to still come and participate.

Well that is immaturity which leads to such differences and rants.
I have even heard some societies have permanently stopped celebrating anything.

And such immaturity is everywhere across this country. There are anywhere from 500 to 1000 families in a township. It takes only a few bad eggs to spoil the atmosphere.

To conclude or even justify my answers, I have stayed in more than 12 societies till date (min. 6 months) incl. on rent, at relatives & friends. I must say there was never anything unusual observed where I can say celebrations tend to become the root cause of fights, discrimination, corruption and even community discrimination. For me all my experiences were happy with good people around across religions and boundaries.

You many have only good experiences at the places you stayed, but that doesn't negate my or my friends and colleagues own experiences or the reason that the the law doesn't want to allow the imposition of such rules.

 

[superczar]

I am on my building's mgmt comm for the last couple of years and I got a couple of points to add:
1) Being on a Housing society's mgmt committee is probably one of the most thankless things out there - a liftman (if they still exist) gets way more heartfelt thanks
At the very least, you would need to spend 50-80 hours a year on the task - all of it from your already limited personal time.
A majority of people who come in the AGM come in with the sole agenda of making comm members look bad rather than to add something constructive

2) I am surprised that maintenance amounts in Mumbai are so low - We pay approx 60K a year (of which roughly 1/3 rd goes into a sinking fund) and it is almost never enough.. Cost of security and electricity alone eats up close to 2/3rd of the remaining maintenance amount. The OP talked about CCTV - I recently worked on upgrading our internal CCTV system and got vendor quotes ranging between 4L-6L for just a 12 camera setup
I eventually ended up doing a wireless DIY setup for approx 1.5L- but that was solely because of my interest and ended up eating into another 15-20 hours of my personal time. The expectation from any mgmt committee would be to simply get 3-4 quotes and pick the best one

3) On religious festivals etc, I personally do not believe in maintenance money being channeled towards it. Having said that, the majority view can and should be respected on such topics especially given the individual contribution towards this would turn out to be a very small percentage of the total sum.
In this AGM, except a few, most people were in favor of picking out 3 occasions in a year over & above the basic low cost functions Independence and Republic day. All 3 turned out to be religious occasions.
My personal principles aside, I will admit that all such events do create a better sense of camaraderie and community among the residents

 

[ashish]

I would like to add that if a very small amount is charged in maintenance itself for organizing such events I dont feel any hard unlawful in it as it is accepted by all the members.
Op paying Rs 100 per year. Which is literally nothing. Zero!
I dont get the point of crying on such a petty amount.
Only if it was something too big then definitely it was time for a call.

If one calculates the contribution it goes these days, depending how big they want to celebrate and also on the societies, the minimum amount chargeable per event is at least 300-500 bucks. Gone are the days of Rs 50 or 100. And this is just for one event. Imagine celebrating 5 events per years which amounts to 2.5 k approx based on my figures which are average these days in cities and towns.

So 100 bucks or two yearly is a steal deal, I wont care if they charge it separately or as some charges in the maintenance bills.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

It is literally unlawful. You cannot show it in account books of the society. You have to maintain seperate accounting for that. Otherwise, society has to show it as income and pay taxes on it.

Unlawful is not decided what people feel. It's like saying stealing Rs 100 is not a crime because it's such a small amount. Everyone agreeing doesn't make it any less unlawful under the law of the land. Bye laws cannot supercede the law of the land.

A society cannot force members to pay for arbitrary things like this. It has to be optional contribution. I don't see why people think it is alright to violate the fundamental rights of residents even if it's over small things like this. When, this is made acceptable, it then leads to even more violations of the law like attempts to ban pets or discriminate rental policies. If 999 members out of 1000 want to ban pets, should the remaining 1 member give up his dog or other pet though it's clearly unlawful to make such rules.

 

[ashish]

It is literally unlawful. You cannot show it in account books of the society. You have to maintain seperate accounting for that. Otherwise, society has to show it as income and pay taxes on it.

Unlawful is not decided what people feel. It's like saying stealing Rs 100 is not a crime because it's such a small amount. Everyone agreeing doesn't make it any less unlawful under the law of the land. Bye laws cannot supercede the law of the land.

I never said its lawful. Its just that if all members are OK with it then what is law going to do about it? And every society got its CA to take care of that headache and such business. Now if society gets charges few taxes thats its own business how it tackles or pays it.

 

[Futureized]

Check lawyers club india or kanoon.
there are tons of matters and right people to give you right legal answer..

 

[Lord Nemesis]

I never said its lawful. Its just that if all members are OK with it then what is law going to do about it? And every society got its CA to take care of that headache and such business. Now if society gets charges few taxes thats its own business how it tackles or pays it.

Even a tenant can make a complaint against the society for such unlawful rules. Alternatively, a disgruntled owner can also file a complaint all of a sudden and then the society will have to pay back the money with interest. There is no harm in abiding by the law and having it as a optional payment. If all members agree to pay, then good, everyone will be paying, if someone doesn't agree, they won't pay and no harm done.

 

[Futureized]

My building managing committee said once the amount is increased in AGM meeting in bldg maintenance bill it cannot be reversed at all. My bldg AGM increases the amount every year in maintenance bill in some or the other way.

Last year twice in 6-6 months they increased total 700 Rs each flat in the name of security. This time this year they are increasing 400-500 Rs each flat more in the name of CCTV camera system installation, fire extinguisher refilling, making a new compost shed in Mumbai. So I need to know how can i a common bldg member do something about this. Because every year they are just asking for money by increasing it and adding to the maintenance bill only. Is this allowed? Also how I can defend this?

Note:: Its a civil matter, you should seek help from correct site(s), in case as I have read on various legal sites, if you are caught discussing this matters online.. (about your soceity, in some cases it can also have adverse effects).. NOTE::

There are lot of online legal site(s) for civil law help, just google for same. FEW here AGAIN:
kannon org
lawyersclubindia com
There are lots, but these are trusted and as well have supreme court people associated.

 

[John4321]

There is a good news for some period of time they have avoided to think about increase. Since a month back new law came about no property taxes on home less then 500 sq feet. So every quarter I use to pay property takes 1500 Rs in my maintenance bill. So now the committee has sent they are working on how to less that from our bill as per the new law passed. So thank god for such a big relief from government side

 

[6pack]

I doubt they will reduce the bill. What has property tax got to do with society maintenance? both are different. Property tax is one time yearly payment to local govt. Society monthly payment is towards society for maintaining society buildings and paying contract staff, electricity bills etc. That total outstanding the society has every month towards water and maintenance is divided equally among all shops and flats. Anything extra will be towards some building fund. If the society has a good enough balance of funds and the building is good shape then they can reduce the monthly bill. Otherwise if they do hand to mouth existence for society, then when the time comes to repair lifts, electric cables etc, they will be begging people to pay extra money in thousands and at that time people will be more angry than they are now.

 

[nRiTeCh]

Property tax has zero relation with society maintenance amount. Unless your building is in great shape the committee might think of reducing the maintenance by some percentage but if they wish too still continue with the original fees they can. No law can interfere but society members object or demand to reduce.

 

[rdst_1]

He has mentioned that property tax used to be a part of his maintenance amount. Maybe the society used to collect the property tax on the resident's behalf and deposit it all together, providing a service to the residents and ensuring people don't forget to pay it and are then penalized later