Modi asks: Why didn’t a Google happen out of India

[asingh]

Some of the reasons, I could chalk up back-of-the-envelope:

1. Our education system of rote and tote is quite detrimental. We are taught on a rail track system. With limited scope for creativity and thinking from a novel and innovative perspective.
2. It is exponentially worse when one goes to college. Basically for 12 years the mind has been stunted and in college it is literally dulled and grounded to a useless piece of stone.
3. We take zero pride as a nationality but have more zeal for ethnic ethos based on religion and language. Basically cross referential aspects are prohibited. IE: out of the box. This is primarily a societal fallacy.
4. A lot of colleges do not have infrastructure for R&D and industrial cohort capability. The set up is close to the colonial times. Professors are worse.
5. As a governmental PoV; IT is something to be mistrusted. How Kapil Sibal wanted to monitor all FB feeds. Still the power of a tool has not dawned upon our government. It is just a money making cow. Literally bleed it to death, the milking stage is long gone.
6. There is absolutely no planning (or foresight) in India. Everything is done in a haphazard manner (be it digging a sewer line or starting a company). IT behemoths are not created overnight. Sweat shops are..!
7. Indians think mono. ---> Summary (descending): IIT, IIM, ISB, IAS, IPS, Doctor, Engineer, Government Job, and as they used to call it in the 80's: Private Job.
8. Working for foreign companies with a boorish and old-Indian style attitude. The "I am boss"; clandestine nature is still grossly prevalent. Irrespective, of the corporate HR hawks attempting to make facilities neutral and / or keep the environment professional. Hiring protocols are a nightmare. Many a time talent is mismatched to the job. That is like throwing a spanner in the works, before even setting it up. How will companies grow and prosper and "invent".
9. We are too old - school. With our ministers parading around in ethnic wear and looking like village bumpkins, specially when abroad (this has changed though). There is no zeal and attitude for being aggressive and depicting a cutting edge. It just does not work.
10. Hissy Fits. We are the best at that. Make a mountain out of nothing. Even I do. I guess it is our nature / blood. It is a loser's attitude.
11. We are not Aryans. LOL.

 

[dpandey]

^^^

As someone who was involved in hiring/training for a long time, I have become far less critical of the education system over the years. Yes, it could be better but it is not the biggest roadblock. Once you place a smart fresher in the right environment, they morph into samurais quickly.

Here is my biggest peeve. There are no liveable cities in India.

You can pay a high salary in India, but you cannot ensure that your employees lead a good comfortable life. Commute, finding a place to say, bad food hygine, pollution and other non-issues slowly eat away the employee's time and energy.[DOUBLEPOST=1425409475][/DOUBLEPOST]

history is a lot more than a myth though.

Its real simple build your house on solid ground.

Which one of the following is 'history'?

http://www.amazon.in/SULTAN-TYRANT-MYSORE-SANDEEP-BALAKRISHNA/dp/8192788466/

http://www.amazon.in/Sword-Tipu-Sultan-Bhagwans-Gidwani/dp/8129114755/

 

[blr_p]

I am assuming you are young. It is extremely important for a society to control the narrative of its history. Every society must write its history in a way that makes it look good. Otherwise, you do not survive.

Well, then we are all screwed in the internet age where its possible to see right through the BS if you're willing to. Where you can expect to see your national 'stories' skewered big time.

Let me give you a counter example. Serbs tried to resurrect their national history with the tragic consequence they no longer is a Yugoslavia. So yeah, nice selective bias there.

Case in point, Jews wouldn't have survived 1000 years in European ghettos if they accepted 'reality', which was quite bleak. But they kept lying to themselves that they are G-d's chosen people and they will not assimilate. Romas, who had no such narrative to support them, withered away.

Not integrating isn't unique just to jews. Ghettos you refer to most likely refer to the orthodox, they don't tend to make as much as their secular counterparts and are more cost consicious.

You will be surprised at how much effort countries put in making their past look better. Just watch the American history channels or read about how Americans have written the WW2 history.

Victors write the history.

At least one British writer (Niall Fergusan) is trying to make it look like colonialism was good for the colonies and a burden for the British.

which book or documentary are you referring to. i watched his empire documentary and did not get that point. As for benefits we got the language, their legal system and political system. The Brits founded all our tier 1 cities, all five of them. They left us with a political entity.

some thing people do not realise is India was a regional hegemon under Curzon. Its kinda ironic when you notice India after independence accusing the west of things India did with impunity in its own neighbourhood for well over a century earlier.

You don't get an ocean named after for being nice. First expedition was 1762 to bash up the spanish in the phillipines. We attacked the Chinese three times, both the opium wars including putting down their boxer rebellion. The middle east was policed by indians and who went on to fight and defeat the japanese in WW2.

What i find highly amusing is people will bash brits but excuse mughals, huns, mongols and we go right back macedonians. All in the past. We still retain our culture which remains and goes back a long time.

China has made an industry out of lying about its history and used the narrative to gobble up Tibet and now South China Sea. Chinese are taught about their 'ancient greatness' and how the west has stolen their ideas. It just makes copying western technology a little easier on the conscience.

You don't think thats a load of BS. They copy because they can get away with it.

I can give a lot more examples to support my point, but a bulletin board is probably not the right place.

go for it.

 

[sharktale1212]

The venue and the audience to whom that rhetorical question was posed to means he is asking them how he can help.

It's a serious question and its good to hear a leader wonder aloud like that. Doing his best to inspire, like Kalam.

wait. what?! So it was a rhetorical query to understand how to get "Make in India" work.
Leave it to the people on TE to discuss a rhetoric to death and report it as a fact.

 

[asingh]

^^^

As someone who was involved in hiring/training for a long time, I have become far less critical of the education system over the years. Yes, it could be better but it is not the biggest roadblock. Once you place a smart fresher in the right environment, they morph into samurais quickly.

I think it is the biggest. As a nation we do not think, but just do. Like marshalling of sheep.

 

[blr_p]

wait. what?! So it was a rhetorical query to understand how to get "Make in India" work.
Leave it to the people on TE to discuss a rhetoric to death and report it as a fact.

What do you want to call it then ?

 

[booo]

I would say we Indians should spend more effort writing history from 'our' point of view. It is quite unfortunate that foreign historians have written better accounts of India's past (Basham, Meuller, Zimmer) than Indians themselves.

again... NO
Indians' attempt to writing history from "our" point of view resulted in people like P.N. Oak.

Oak's claims, e.g. that Christianity and Islam are both derivatives of Hinduism, or that the Catholic Vatican, Kaaba and the Taj Mahal were once Hindu temples to Shiva,[1] and their reception in Indian popular culture have been noted by observers of contemporary Indian society, who variously characterised Oak as a "mythistorian"[2] or more directly as a "crank".[3] He wrote books in three languages.

So, yeah... History needs someone who documents facts not conclusions.

 

[sharktale1212]

What do you want to call it then ?

It was a rhetorical question no doubt and a good one considering the audience. What is the need to call it anything else? Though looking at the thread makes me doubt that

 

[dpandey]

Serbs tried to resurrect their national history with the tragic consequence they no longer is a Yugoslavia.

Are you implying that Yugoslavia wouldn't have broken up if Serbs hadn't started the war? Besides, if the US/Europe hadn't interfered, Serbia might even have succeeded. Without an effort, they were going to lose anyway. Pretty much everyone had declared their desire to be independent.[DOUBLEPOST=1425447000][/DOUBLEPOST]

What i find highly amusing is people will bash brits but excuse mughals,

I couldn't agree more with you. But the history I was taught in school painted the British as evil and the Mogals (most of them) as benevolent saints.

And this teaching of 'wrong' history has not been without consequence, most of it bad.[DOUBLEPOST=1425447425][/DOUBLEPOST]

So, yeah... History needs someone who documents facts not conclusions.

So which of these two is not history? One portrays him as a Tyrant and the other as a legendary freedom fighter.

http://www.amazon.in/SULTAN-TYRANT-MYSORE-SANDEEP-BALAKRISHNA/dp/8192788466/

http://www.amazon.in/Sword-Tipu-Sultan-Bhagwans-Gidwani/dp/8129114755/

 

[dpandey]

Well, then we are all screwed in the internet age where its possible to see right through the BS if you're willing to. Where you can expect to see your national 'stories' skewered big time.

Yes. But then other fault lines have developed, and people are busy building newer narratives. I had used the words nation and country very loosely.

Here is an excerpt from a recent Obama speech, looking towards history for a justification of his inaction on ISIS (this speech was given a day after he had a secret meeting with muslim leaders).

“Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”

 

[booo]

So which of these two is not history? One portrays him as a Tyrant and the other as a legendary freedom fighter.
http://www.amazon.in/SULTAN-TYRANT-MYSORE-SANDEEP-BALAKRISHNA/dp/8192788466/
http://www.amazon.in/Sword-Tipu-Sultan-Bhagwans-Gidwani/dp/8129114755/

one concludes as tyrant and other as legendary freedom fighter. the key word here is concludes. history should not do that. history should document facts. things are always not black or white.

So in short the answer is neither.

 

[blr_p]

Are you implying that Yugoslavia wouldn't have broken up if Serbs hadn't started the war? Besides, if the US/Europe hadn't interfered, Serbia might even have succeeded. Without an effort, they were going to lose anyway. Pretty much everyone had declared their desire to be independent.

There was no reason for yugoslavia to fall apart as quickly as it did post soviet collapse, they were the least aligned of the warsaw pact. The Serbs let their idealistic nationalists get the better of them and everybody ended up losing.

I couldn't agree more with you. But the history I was taught in school painted the British as evil and the Mogals (most of them) as benevolent saints.

hah, i remember some of that though the books had a lot less victim complex in them than the actual people. That sentiment was strong and to an extent still is even today.

And this teaching of 'wrong' history has not been without consequence, most of it bad.

I think it interferes with moving forward if one has to look back and then gets inputs from only one source. That to question these narratives is somehow anti-national. hell, i would settle with more questioning and less swallowing.

The brits trained us to be good administrators to follow orders. what was the need for indians to continue in the same vein ? Isn't this just a continuation of a ruling mindset and less of a freedom mindset. when will the second freedom struggle happen.

This is a good slam at the educational system. There are severe repercussions otherwise. This is doen so as to more effectively manage the large numbers of students. Rule via fear. order via fear. Indians make good workers, loyal and follow orders. The fight in them somehow just isn't there and when they do want to fight i wonder if they know how to. maybe that's good in some instances, more discipline but in the long run it means we can't chart out our own way as decisively. There has to be more active encouragement of dissent because that is the only way something original will ever come out.

If you think back many years ago , india's strength is ideas, those ideas spread all over asia. The brits did not take that out of us, we lost our ability to generate them some where along the way. Its because India like China always imagines the universe revolves around them. What is the need to go elsewhere. these two did not need to go anywhere, the land was fertile which is why it could support such large populations. we had what we needed and have had it for so long that the need to acquire it from abroad never arose.

 

[blr_p]

Yes. But then other fault lines have developed, and people are busy building newer narratives. I had used the words nation and country very loosely.

The use of the word nation when applied to india makes me uncomfortable as it implies homegenity. yet it continues to be used by leaders in a benign sense. I prefer the word country. We are a country of many nations. yogendra yadav has his own definition of nation state and argues instead we are a state nation.

Here is an excerpt from a recent Obama speech, looking towards history for a justification of his inaction on ISIS (this speech was given a day after he had a secret meeting with muslim leaders).

“Unless we get on our high horse and think this is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of Christ.”

words of that speech has been twisted way beyond its original intent and out of context. some say its a justification for what ISIS is doing. i have a problem with the word ISIS itself. call them Da'ish like the arabs do.

 

[dpandey]

^^^

The Serb story, specially WRT the Bosnians should be of special interest to any Indian. Bosnia wasn't always Islamic majority area. When the Ottomans invaded (circa 1500), many Bosnians converted to Islam to gain position of power within the Empire. The Serbs stayed Christians. 500 years later, having outbred the serbs, Bosnians broke away and became a separate country.

 

[blr_p]

Wouldn't have happened with the serbs messing it up for all. why is yugoslavia not there any more. Ask the serbs.

Ukraine is another up and coming problem. They can't make up their minds whether to be european or russian. some did and said they were european and that messed it up for everybody. How about just being ukranian. tell the euros and the russians to get lost.

no! instead they invite these two giants to split their people and fight their own. Once the two big guys conclude a deal i hope it will be in ukraines interest and not at their expense.

The EU is a mess, the Turks thank their lucky stars they never got in but Ukraine or an influential number there will do they damndest to get into it.

 

[dpandey]

I think it is the biggest.

Then the success of Indians in Silicon Valley would need some explaining. How is it that the products of the Indian education system become super achievers when they move to US?

 

[asingh]

Then the success of Indians in Silicon Valley would need some explaining. How is it that the products of the Indian education system become super achievers when they move to US?

Because all I listed in my bullet points, diminishes to negligible attributes....! An Indian needs to be outside his/her elemental environment to flourish normally, aka: be successful and innovative.

 

[hotshot05]

Then the success of Indians in Silicon Valley would need some explaining. How is it that the products of the Indian education system become super achievers when they move to US?

Scientists and engineers need infrastructure to innovate and invent. And by infrastructure I don't mean only labs and costly equipment. The people who you work with also play a big role in your output. If the people working with you are smart, you will learn many new things everyday.
If everyone is fixated on rote learning, many lose the ability to think innovatively. A person who has not been told the constraints for a specific item may try out various ideas. But if he knew that there are such constraints, he may have had discarded many ideas without even having implemented them.
Most inventions are the end results of mistakes or something which they had not intended to find. (e.g X-ray, radium etc)

 

[sunny27]

<rant>

The following are reasons:-
[1] Thinking outside the box is not encouraged in India - yes there's jugaad but not at the expense of your career and studies
[2] You study to get good marks and then get into a good college to do a good professional course where you study to get good marks to get placed in a good company offering you decent pay - if you don't you're considered different and completely insane and stupid
[3] If you challenge the norms and decide to do something different which is unconventional - you will rarely ever receive any support from your family and faculty - who would say getting marks is more important - you then become a good for nothing
[4] Indian Society would view them as useless good for nothings - who squander away their time in meaningless pursuits instead of passing/topping the university - OMG - no degree/no post graduation degree/diploma/no masters - no future - no marriage prospects
[5] This holds true in a Bengali household (since I come from one) - the child has some value if he or she is an engineer/doctor/lawyer/CA/researcher/civil servant etc anything otherwise is a total waste of time

</rant>

 

[quixand]

Jugaad is the best form of innovation.

Here you go boys and girls. Read up. "http://www.amazon.in/Jugaad-Innovation-Flexible-Generate-Breakthrough/dp/1118249747"

This education and rote have been used so many times as an excuse. We do not lack innovation. But we could do more of it. It's human nature to try and find a solution and not bypass it.

What we do lack is conviction. We are lazy. Averse to taking risks. (read Mama's Boys or Society's B*tches) or probably just not quick enough to come up with the plans and seeing it through.
We could be the leaders of developing world. Implement Ideas in your own country first if you are going to talk up a culture of innovation. God, Laloo Prasad Yadav was more innovative as Railways Minister than some of the "Brighter" minds.
Google has been done, Ali Baba has been done move on.

Modi is not questioning Innovation in India, He's asking why do we not have a Big Brand Startup he can sell to the west? It's not a wrong question though.