Budget 51-70k Need a PC for Architectural Work.

S

sudeepvz

Disciple
Hey, Sorry to modify this template a lil bit, but I couldn't help it because it was really burning in my heart. My main concern/requirement/problem is that I want a PC for an Architecture Use. I am studying architecture and I am always working on Cad, Revit, Sketchup with V-Ray, Photoshop etc. And now starting to use Illustrator, Blender, Rhino and 3DsMax too. So Its like Graphic Design + Modelling + Rendering Machine, along with normal daily computing use and 24/7 downloading kind of thing which we generally use for. Now again if you have proper knowledge on this ( I don't have proper knowledge, as in conformed and sure) then each software works differently, as in Sketchup will use cores in different way as in Revit or 3dsmax or Blender. Even I dont have proper knowledge, but what I am focusing is on difference with No. Of Cores and Speed of Each Core. Because there has to be a proper reason for choosing certain processor. Well leave it in case you don't understand it.
Well and guys, I can wait for a month or two at the max to buy this PC. I can try for Intel 4th gen CPU's or if AMD is bringing out something new. thanks for taking your time and reading all this and here is detailed stuff that you need: -
  1. What is your budget?
    • 50K but can become higher if I get perfect combination.
  2. What is your existing hardware configuration (component name - component brand and model)
    • I don't have any. Was using laptop Dell Studio 1558.
  3. Which hardware will you be keeping (component name - component brand and model)
    • None
  4. Which hardware component are you looking to buy (component name). If you have already decided on a configuration then please mention the (component brand and model) as well, this will help us in fine tuning your requirement.
    • I am confused between AMD and INTEL. So I want to have two Configurations so that I can choose any one among them
    • CPU - Intel i7 or AMD best one
    • Motherboard - any compatible motherboard
    • GPU - Compatible Graphic Card according to CPU and motherboard
    • SSD for one drive where OS and softwares will be installed.
    • HDD - for normal use.
    • RAM - Being told that the one with heatsinks are good. So Any compatible.
    • Liquid Cooling- I dont have any idea yet.
    • SMPS- Any compatible.
    • Monitor - I have on Dell ST2220L, I am very happy with it So I will buy the same one if possible.
    • Keyboard + Mouse - Decent combo. Not a gamer but good quality to use with 3d modelling programs.
    • Speakers - Can buy later, but if possible I am very keen music lover, Please suggest something out of the box. A Good and lovely 2.1 is preferred than bad 5.1 of what I have been these days.
    • Casing Unit - Rough and tough needed as I would be staying in Hostel and have to shift a lot, plus bad weather conditions of Delhi.
    • (please mention the rest in above format)
  5. Is this going to be your final configuration or you would be adding/upgrading a component in near future. If yes then please mention when and which component
    • Final Configuration.
  6. Where will you buy this hardware? (Online/City/TE Dealer)
    • Mumbai
    • New Delhi
    • Open to online purchase
  7. Would you consider buying a second hand hardware from the TE market
    • No
  8. What is your intended use for this PC/hardware
    • Main use is for Rendering and 3d Modelling.
    • Browsing
    • Desktop Processing
    • Download rig, 24x7 operation
    • Watching HD movies
  9. Do you have any brand preference or dislike? Please name them and the reason for your preference/dislike.
    • Main thing is between AMD and Intel. I like AMD but since investing large amount I dont want to take risk, and also because I am not sure about the compatibility of Processors with other parts and Softwares.
    • Also Blender will be supporting GPU Rendering which is currently available only in Nvidia Cards, so they are slightly preferred.
  10. If you will be playing games then which type of games will you be playing?
    • My main concern is towards SOFTWARE USE AND FUNCTIONALITY
    • Autocad
    • Revit
    • Sketchup with V-Ray
    • Photoshop
    • Illustrator
    • Blender
    • 3dsMax
    • Rhino
    • And trying out various 3d Modelling and Rendering Softwares.
    • I want these to perform at their fullest.
  11. What is your preferred monitor resolution for gaming and normal usage
    1. Gaming - 1280x728
    2. Desktop - 1440x900
  12. Are you looking to overclock?
    • Yes/No. I am not sure if I would be needing this option.
  13. Which operating system do you intend to use with this configuration?
    • Windows 8 or Windows 7 64 bit
    • Linux - Ubuntu, Puppy Linux and other Variants.
Thank you.
 
Welcome to TE @sudeepvz .... No worries. You have an impressive line-up of softwares that you plan to use. These are my initial notes.
  • You said you could wait for a month or two (max) before you take a final call. This is a wise decision as Haswell will be available (hopefully) by then we will have better options.
  • Even if you cannot fit in a Haswell - no issues (the initial benchmarks show just an incremental gain over Ivybridge). We hope prices of Ivybridge procs & motherboards should fall so that you could accomodate a Z77 + 3770k in your budget (or it's nearest equivalent).
  • Regarding the softwares that you plan to use. Each of them function differently in how they process & render instructions - from CPU/GPU only to both CPU + GPU to maximum utilisation of all cores on CPU to using open CL/GL. Each softwares settings can be set optimally to make the best use of your resources.... These "optimum" settings are easily available on various CGI forums (or user-forums of the given software).
  • I would advise you to spend time in compiling a simple database in excel to see what each of your softwares use to process it's instructions. At the end of it you will have a clearer picture to see - which component on you system needs to be the best [GPU / CPU / RAM]. i.e if 80% of your softwares use CPU+cores then it would make sense to go for the "best processor" rather than an expensive 30-40k GPU and likewise.
  • For your purpose - a hexa or octa core processor + best gpu that you can afford + 16GB RAM is a must.
  • Continue using your existing Dell monitor as the money saved can be better utilised for getting the best of the remaining core components.
  • Ideally a Quadro GPU would have been the "best" option - however it's relatively high prices does not really offset the "performance benefits" that you could get by using a normal Nvidia GTX. Moreover as your work is not - "client-based-deliveries", I see no reason to use a Quadro.
  • I shall hold on to recommend actual components rightaway as you plant to wait for a month or two (there could be new equations by then) :)
  • Meanwhile lets see what other's on TE have to say.
Cheers
Terry

EDIT: Processor min requirement changed
 
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Doing the same thing . So my 2 paisa advice ,buy best processor you can afford . Mid range mono . 16 GB ram . Mid level GPU card @12-15k range 2 HDD if possible a sad . Best PSU .monitor take later .

Don't fall into quadro trap . Good luck .which year are you in
 
Hey @terence_fdes thanks a lot for a warm welcome. I really appreciate it. And thanks a lot for putting your time into it.
  • I agree with you about waiting for Haswell, although you rightly pointed out and according to current news it focuses mainly on power consumption and not on performance-power and gives only 10% over current Ivy-Bridge, plus I read online that they are priced higher than expected. But still even it is not affordable or not good for me then at-least, it will lower the prices of current available processors.
  • Also AMD is going to bring out their Steamroller with some pretty high expectations so lets see but again it will take time and will be available by the end of this year.
  • I will try to create a list of softwares according to their functionality, which will give us a clear idea.
  • 16GB Ram isn't too much?! I don't have much info. on it as well as on Graphic Card. Is Quadro too much costlier than normal GTX?
  • I will have to buy a new monitor because current one is for Home use. I would buy the same model again if possible.
  • And its OK to give your recommendations later, but I just hoping I could get some idea with currently available products to get an idea on How much it will cost so that I get an idea on budget.
Again Thanks a lot.
And @kippu Thanks for the info. Can you also give me the exact part name, as in I am not sure which motherboard and graphic card will be compatible for which processor. Because for example if I want to see how much my budget is becoming if I am choosing Intel 3rd gen i7 - 3770, I don't know which motherboard or graphic card or ram to take.

I will be going to Fourth Year now. May I know why did you asked so?
Thanks
Sudeep
 
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A friend was looking for specs to run Sketchup and Revit. I found this page a useful guideline for Sketchup : https://sites.google.com/site/sketchupsage/faster/computer , and this a good guideline for Revit : http://www.revitforum.org/hardware-infrastructure/75-revit-hardware-general.html

I also remember reading that Revit was having issues with consumer laptop AMD/ATI 7xxx cards/drivers and people had to turn off hardware acceleration to get it to run right - I'm not sure if this problem carries over to the desktop 7xxx cards/drivers. The nvidia consumer cards seemed to be ok.

Most software still uses the CPU for the final render, so GPU power doesn't make a difference. Its only the driver quality that counts. This is probably why people recommend even a cheap quadro because of the better drivers.
 
sudeepvz said:
Hey @terence_fdes
  • And its OK to give your recommendations later, but I just hoping I could get some idea with currently available products to get an idea on How much it will cost so that I get an idea on budget.
Again Thanks a lot.
And @kippu Thanks for the info. Can you also give me the exact part name, as in I am not sure which motherboard and graphic card will be compatible for which processor. Because for example if I want to see how much my budget is becoming if I am choosing Intel 3rd gen i7 - 3770, I don't know which motherboard or graphic card or ram to take.

I will be going to Fourth Year now. May I know why did you asked so?
Thanks
Sudeep
Click to expand...

I understand your anxiety right now about - budget + getting the 'best bang-for-the-buck'.

Rest assured that we will recommend an robust system to take care of all your needs.

Before we proceed any further, it would help us if you prioritize which software is most important to you [list them] down to the ones you will not be using regularly. If I were to presume that Revit is the most important, then CPU (hexa or octacore) would be the most important component on your system...... so we have no choice but to go for an AMD.
Whereas if Sketchup is the most important - then a powerful multi-cored CPU is not that important.
@Crazy_Eddy - good links

Pardon my asking - since you are in your 4th year. Do you plan any further studies & how soon - masters (India/Abroad). If it is abroad & in 2014 - then what happens to this system ?

Next - what is the average size of the models that you work with (also keep in mind future scenarios) - see for example Revit 2014 system requirements for "large complex models"
  • Multicore Xeon or i-Series processor or AMD equivalent with SSE2 technology (highest affordable CPU speed rating recommended)
  • Multiple cores for many tasks, up to 16 cores for near-photorealistic rendering operations
  • 16 GB RAM (Usually sufficient for a typical editing session for a single model up to approximately 700 MB on disk. This estimate is based on internal testing and customer reports. Individual models will vary in their use of computer resources and performance characteristics.)
Click to expand...

Do not be alarmed. Autodesk & Adobe has the habit of 'scaring' normal folks. But let's always assume the worst-case scenarios & then sit back to see - if my system can cope with such work. We may have to work around and find some compromises.

I just realised my bro-in-law (actually my neice's hubby is an architect who works with Lodha Group in Mumbai) - lets see what I can pick from him.

Cheers
Terry
 
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RECOMMENDED BUILD - [Tentative - Processor/Motherboard]

Processor :
AMD FX-8350 Black edition 8-core ~ 11950/-
or AMD FX-8320 Black edition 8-core ~ 9800/-
Note: If you are not going to OC - then ask if the non-black edition is available.

Motherboard :
GIGABYTE GA-990XA-UD3 ~ 9200/-
or Gigabyte GA-970A-UD3 ~ 6600/-
=========================================
RAM : Corsair Vengence 2 x 8GB ~ 8600
or [order from here] - G.Skill Ripjaws X (2 x 8GB) ~ 8000
or G.Skill Ripjaws Z (4 x 4GB) ~ 7900/- [this kit will fill up all your memory slots]
Note: Go for min 1600MHz & not 1333MHz & either Corsair or G.Skill only. The 8GB sticks give you an option to add additional RAM in future to maximise the 32GB capacity.

PSU : Seasonic S12II 520W Bronze ~ 4400/-
or Seasonic S12II 620W Bronze ~ 5120/-
[free shipping]

HDD : WD Caviar Blue 500GB ~ 3264/-
Note : You can add a larger capacity HDD later - WD Red 3TB ~ 9600/-

SSD [Optional] ~ Samsung 120 GB ~ 6349/-
Note: On todays systems [desktops especially] and with Win7/8-64bit to achieve amazing speed and performance. Install your OS & most important softwares on this. Ideally you would need a 250+ GB SSD so that you can allocate space for all your cache/proxy renders too .... this one Samsung 250GB ~ 11399/-

GPU:
FYI
Quadro Cards ~ check here |theitdepot - chennai

CABINET : Cooler Master K350 ~ 2900
Note : The above comes with just 1 fan (front), you can add 2-3 more 120mm CM fans to achieve best cooling & air-flow inside the cabinet (not very expensive).

DVD Drive + Keyboard & Mouse ~ 1600

The online references that I have suggested are all credible & reliable dealers.

Cheers
Terry
 
Hey,
Sorry to reply late guys. Got involved in something else.

Hey @kippu Thanks but I will be doing thesis next year. :)

And hey @Crazy_Eddy, Thanks a lot for such valuable information. This really helped me a lot. So according to those articles both Revit and Sketchup will need a faster Single Core Processor, which currently Intel i7 3770 gives.
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/375/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350_vs_Intel_Core_i7_i7-3770.html
But again AMD is also not that bad. I read this comment somewhere which said that while comparison we should always remember that by how much margin one product is winning, if the margin is just 1-2% then that is not actually a real win. It does not mean that AMD won't be able to perform these tasks, it just means that it will perform in a little less time. So, Basically.... I am trying to find out is whether i7-3770 is better for Revit or Fx-8350? And by what margin or percentage. Although it won't be that much I guess. Instead going for a costly CPU, I think its more better to go for a cheaper CPU + Liquid cooling, as I have read at many places that AMD has a bad reputation for heating problems.

Plus, I would be focussing upon ONLY modelling in Revit as the Revit renders done on a normal computer are very typical and dull, as far as I have seen till now. So, what many people do is that, they Model in Revit and then they export into some other software such as Sketchup or 3dsMax where they use V-Ray for rendering, which gives very good result as compared to Revit's. On the other hand, what I am doing nowadays is that I am using Autodesk's Cloud Rendering Service which is very awesome and free. Although there are reports that there were some problems with Revit 2014 and Cloud Rendering, but lets see that later. So, for now there is not much to worry about a GPU for Revit. Either a Quadro 600 or GTX 660! And ya you were right about Revit having issues with previous ATI/AMD Cards. I am having HD5470 on my laptop and I have to turn off hardware acceleration for better performance.

Thanks a lot for your valuable input.

And hey @terence_fdes, WOW thank you for such detailed and formatted configuration. Feel like I troubled you a lot already. Now, I clearly have an idea about my budget and that idea is telling me to get a one month internship right now to pitch in for this new PC. Hahaha...:)
Hmmm... Sorry to make this very long, but let me explain you my current basic Workflow. (Since very nice information is coming from all directions and this might help you with some extra useless information which might come handy somewhere else.)
First of all I have to start making sheets, which is to be done in Photoshop for analysis, studies, concepts etc. But till now I was doing this in Powerpoint which is very lame thing. But from now onward I have to study good and hard. So, Photoshop is the first and very major software which I would be using. Also there will be some work in Sketchup related to basic massing. Then drawing work starts. Although it can be done in Revit itself, but because there is lot of group work involved and other people work solely on AutoCAD and Sketchup, even I have to work in Autocad. Because of this and my lack of ability to work completely in one software I am constantly switching back and forth from Revit to Autocad. Autocad will be used only for 2D Modelling. Then with this Modelling starts. This happens in either Revit or Sketchup. Again due to Moderate level of expertise in software I use both Revit and Sketchup to model. Again switching back and forth. Then Rendering comes. Sketchup is preferred because of nice V-Ray Renderings and better control on Modelling. Ander after this again you have to make sheets for presentation for which you use Photoshop. And thats the procedure.

http://boxxtech.com/Solutions/revit

http://boxxtech.com/Media/Default/D...our Autodesk Revit Workstation Matos edit.pdf

1)Photoshop - CS6 is using both CPU and GPU equally and has new features but what's with the law of diminishing returns with with multiple processor cores? Its here in these links and it says after 3 cores the result decreases.!
​
2)Revit - Uses Single Core. So this makes me worry to choose between i7 and AMD
I suddenly remembered about BOXX, which you guys must have heard of, so took some idea from them.​
​
3)Autocad - F0r 2D work, And the config which we are making anything will work I think.

4)Sketchup+Vray - Again Sketchup works on Single Core only, and GPU will be needed sometimes, plus V-Ray for Sketchup uses only CPU and not GPU as I read on few posts. Not sure about other versions of V-Ray.

5)Blender- I am planning to uses this software a lot as its is very light as compared to others and it uses GPU for rendering, which is an awesome feature. GPU rendering is around 12 times faster than CPU rendering.!!!
http://www.systemagnostic.com/faqs/ - Here is the knowledge on GPU use by Blender if someone Interested.​
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Atfi5YqN3LOqdEw2Rlcxa0RnZm4yY2tEMklINkJQbkE#gid=0 - Or you can just check this benchmark. LOOK at the difference in time taken by CPU and GPU and you will be amazed!!!​

OK so it all gets down to this.
  • Most of the applications are preferring Fast Single Core Processors rather than Multi-core Processors.
  • For GPU, Currently there are only two options and i.e. GTX Series and Quadro 600. Although Quadro 2000 would have bee awesome choice but its very costly.
  • How do you guys choose motherboard?!!!
  • I think RAM you posted is Exact and Must. Nice.
  • PSU.. Is there any other option in it. Can we go for something less costly?
  • HDD Is WD better or Seagate or Samsung? What's with the Blue version? Just increasing my knowledge, and not doubting on you. Please don't get it wrong.
  • Which Liquid Cooling would you prefer?
  • And If I buy Fx-8350 now, Can I replace it with Steamroller which will come around Q4 of this year or Q1 of next? Just asking I don't think I will be able to. Same goes for Graphics Card, can it be replaced too?
Thanks Terry for all the valuable information. And hey please feel free t0 ask anything, after all you are the ones who is doing me a big favour. Truly speaking even I am not sure about the future. Currently I don't have any plans about what will be happening after 2 years. I will be doing Post Graduation but I am not sure if I get chance to go abroad. Any idea what can be done then?
Also till now the models I was working on was very small. It used to be one block. For ex.: - A house, a temple, a hotel and a highrise Office building. While working on these Revit worked fine. But I was working on laptop till now. And after some hours it gets to hang and work slowly. But now I will have to do a Housing. Yes a typical Housing Society, which is kind of very big and heavy in modelling terms. I tried to do housing of one of my friend in Revit before, but it became so heavy for some reason (I am not sure if it was the hardware), but I just couldn't do it. It totally flopped.
And hey , no need to disturb your brother-in-law. I think I had already put you in much trouble with all these big boring stuff.
Even I a tired now. Let me take a rest and get back to you.
Once again, Thanks a lot.:)
Sudeep
 
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Just read all that you have shared. Valueable points and observations. I shall try to respond in detail tomorrow.

Just one small point - CPU Cooling - just get rid of the Liquid Cooling thingy. The entire apparatus sure looks geeky and glitzy. This is NOT a necessity in your case.

Do not lose "focus" from your primary objective - getting the best possible RIG for your 'architectural-work'. Air-cooling solutions are a lot cheaper. Pushing your cpu 10-20% is not advisable (unless absolutely necessary). Also remember whichever kind of Over-clocking of your core-components - cpu; ram; gpu - will ultimately result in reducing the shelf-life of these components.

You have confused me with one major note - where did you pick up that Revit performs best/ok with a 'faster single-core' processor?

I had referenced "autodesks" system requirements for revit 2014 where they have stated the opposite - more the cores > better the performance - see for example Revit 2014 system requirements for "large complex models" whereas Sketchup does not really need a multi-cored processor. These two softwares - but having opposite CPU requirements.
 
sudeepvz said:
Either a Quadro 600 or GTX 660!
Click to expand...
Here's a comparison between a cheap Quadro 600 and a high-end GTX 670 (costs ~30k on flipkart) : http://pcfoo.com/nvidia-quadro-600/ . No point wasting money on an expensive GTX 6xx card unless you're gaming.

terence_fdes said:
Just one small point - CPU Cooling - just get rid of the Liquid Cooling thingy.
Click to expand...
Agree. In fact, I would say don't mess around with overclocking since an unstable overclock could mess up your renders.

terence_fdes said:
You have confused me with one major note - where did you pick up that Revit performs best/ok with a 'faster single-core' processor?

I had referenced "autodesks" system requirements for revit 2014 where they have stated the opposite - more the cores > better the performance
Click to expand...
From here. Multiple cores makes a difference with the final rendering - even the autodesk requirements state "up to 16 cores for near-photorealistic rendering operations". But I assume you spend 99% of your time modelling, which isn't heavily multi-threaded as rendering. The trouble is there's no proper comparison of an FX vs i5/i7 in CAD apps.
 
@Crazy_Eddy I obviously can't buy GTX 670 since its too costly, but actually I was referring to the following one: -
http://www.flipkart.com/msi-nvidia-...=660&ref=2d3da297-d5f6-4361-8d3a-cae3d77b779e

Actually I was searching for Quadro 600 and Quadro K600! when I stumbled onto this http://clbenchmark.com/compare.jsp?config_0=11993633&config_1=14276145 And also I tried this too then http://clbenchmark.com/compare.jsp?config_0=11993633&config_1=13242383... Need to see some reviews and benchmarks for K600, although it should perform better than 600 because of twice the number of CUDA cores, but it is based on Kepler architecture whereas old 600 was based on Fermi. I wonder if GTX cards are available in 1GB? Also Photoshop doesn't use CUDA I guess so, I think only blender will be using it. Also Blender runs good with GTX series.. So had some confusion there.

@terence Its just that I have experienced my laptop's core temperature reaching upto 70-80 and even more many times while working continuously for hours. I don't want to go for overclocking as it has pretty side effects. And also I didn't knew that even liquid cooling damages the system. I had a look on components again and they are pretty awesome, Seasonic had very awesome reviews, Nothing special in Caviar Blue series, just aims for home use and less warranty. And even the Cabinet is appropriate. Its just that when you are investing in one top quality part, other parts also start becoming of top quality and in the end the budget becomes top quality. But again it feels bad to patch up High end parts with Low end parts.
And yeah I was referring to Eddy's link for Revit. See there is this specific feature called Ray- Tracing which got introduced in Revit 2013, which basically do is it shows Real-time Sunrays and hence shadows while doing modelling work. Which is nothing but rendering and modelling at the same time. I think Autodesk was referring to that.

@kippu Well...... for all the reasons. For BIM, although no one uses Revit exactly for BIM knowledge. Not even in offices as far as I have heard. Terence might have an idea on this. What do you say Terence? I also feel necessity and want to learn more too.
 
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lol @ raytracing :D

real time sun shadows has been around for a pretty long time , all i can see is you are confusing yourself further and further ,
forget blender , get 3dsmax and vray , you will be working with this for pretty long time in future if you are going to be an architect , so better to get started now on the tools

get the fastest processor , a mid range motherboard , lots of ram , an awesome gfx card( quadro not a necessity) and the same monitor , will be great if you can go dual monitor

been doing renderings for a while , so trust me again , you dont need a quadro ,
 
So what is a fastest processor, a mid range motherboard and awesome gfx card in your views means?!!!! And yeah Quadro won't help in renderings but it will definitely help in viewport handling. Which softwares you have been working on? I am sure it will be useful in 3dsmax.
 
i work in 3dsmax , and a good gfx process proves more vfm than a quadro, and i work with projects from IT parks ,townships to tiny bathrooms :p ,and my viewport is fine

regarding those things about the processor ,mobo ... that is upto you to do your homework,figure out budget and read about them and their benchmarks and finalise the parts , thats the fun part of putting a machine together :D
 
kippu said:
been doing renderings for a while , so trust me again , you dont need a quadro
Click to expand...
He's already had to disable HW acceleration for his viewport with his current Radeon, why take the gamble :p Nvidia consumer geforce cards seem to work ok, but its a known fact that they intentionally cripple geforce drivers to maintain the quadro superiority.
 
Forget the performance ceiling. He's ready to spend 15K on a GTX 660, when a cheaper 10K Quadro 600 walks all over it in CAD apps. I fail to see how the GTX is even better VFM :p
 
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