Over 80% of engineering graduates in India unemployable

[booo]

The point is without the knowledge of how std::list, std::vector, std::set, std::multi_set work and the differences between them, how does a programmer know which one to use for a particular situation. We don't expect everybody to write these things from scratch. However, we do expect people to know how these work and when/how to use any of them.

you miss the point again, there is documentation for that. And I don't expect new college grads to be thorough with everything. for example, if you get into concepts like stack, heap, code segments and debug symbols and things like that you can argue that those concepts are basic fundamentals of object linking and loading that every operating systems text book in college has. but that does not mean that you expect a guy to know it until he actually gets his hands dirty into core debugging and heap analysis. and its not required too because it can be learned in a couple of months.

 

[m-jeri]

"them"?! What's with the cryptic message?



You speak ill of outsourcing companies. Here i thought you were working for one of our outsourcing giants. So i'm assuming "them" refers to H-1B fraudsters?



Ever wondered why you went the way of IT? If you'd been introspective then you'd have realised by now that if you made the switch first then everyone else might've followed.

them means.. American companies, Including the Big 4. I work at one.

I never spoke ill of outsourcing company. Its not my problem you interpret like that. But I hate people who shit on other engineers who are not seemingly bright. I have seen mediocre engineers contribute on a massive scale given the right training.

What is contribution? Make the company they work money, make the program go ahead, make the client give good feedback on the product, develop products that get good market feedback. Cannot care less if they cannot pass a stupid interview.

Story time: I happen to work with a principal who have over 53 patents to his name. He is considered as a pioneer in IOT by IEEE. For the last 2 years, he is trying hiring few people to mentor and take his place.
He wants to retire. He straightforward told me that, he would never have passed a single interview question of his own 33 years back.

My friend, I have no quarrel with you. So, have a nice day.

 

[m-jeri]

I remember reading somewhere on TE where you mentioned that you were working for one of the big names in IT in India. I couldn't find that post and hence assumed that it was one of the popular outsourcing firms. You deserve an apology and i sincerely apologize.



I'll have to remember this.



Good for you!

But then what is it that is worrying you?



What's with the defensiveness? Have we ever quarreled with each other in the past?

I am still working for a Indian company... at one of the Big 4. But the name is not yet so popular for outsourcing. Hope to get there once.

Wait, so for you, opinions of anyone that works for a outsourcing company don't matter?

I am not at all worried my good friend.

I was not being defensive, but dismissive. You are misinterpreting all my posts. So I will not engage you further, you are entitled to your opinion. You are right and I am wrong.

 

[viktik]

I think the market is expecting too much from engineers while the quality of education is rotting.
Classes in India are not very interactive. Students go to class listen to teachers and go back to their room.
India missed the gradual process of industrialization many times. And now all of a sudden students are expected to perform miracles while education system did not put much effort.

 

[nimod]

Students go to class listen to teachers and go back to their room.

Are you talking about engineering students?

 

[erikaflower]

@Lord Nemesis Same story with or company...
We have been doing interviews for last 4 months now...
Not a single hire.. :-(
Hence, we have lowered our bars and have decided to take someone who at least shows good attitude so that we can get work done by them..
Shocking that people with 8-9 years of experience do not even know basic things like difference between a web server and an app server..

I know what do you mean... I think there are two reasons why it is like that. My younger sister studying right now and as I can see they do a lot but it is so academic not practical. She says that they learn a lot what is not that important. I feel that many uni programmes are not changed or let's upgraded to new things... the second, probably many students are super lazy right now

 

[bobbyprajan]

My younger sister studying right now and as I can see they do a lot but it is so academic not practical.

Yes, they sure learn a lot but for some reason they cannot relate what they learn to things around us. I am not sure where is the problem, the way they are taught, the lack of interest or the academics itself

She says that they learn a lot what is not that important.

Unless the students are able to connect what they learn to how that applies in real world they will feel the same.

 

[pratikb]

In coming time , practical skills are far more important than theoretical knowledge.

Must get better skillset.

 

[bobbyprajan]

In coming time , practical skills are far more important than theoretical knowledge.

I have a different view, the academics are important because it helps you to understand what you are doing. You cannot manage / supervise / control things you dont understand.

Must get better skillset.

Totally agree with you here.

 

[pratikb]

rather than becoming poppat who blurts out what it is made or forced to learn, its better to understand and learn its practical implication .
many of IT crowd I see in Bangalore is poppat variety who is just running high on IT company money with zero to little knowledge .
sometime I pity them for their lack of skills and their future.

 

[Chaos]

I work in Computer Graphics and Virtual Reality since 2002. It is a rather niche area which doesn't have too many options or job opportunities in India and 99.99 percent of the engineering grads coming out of college have zero knowledge of this field. There are only three institutions in India I'm aware of that has a formal CG course - IIT Delhi, Bombay and IIIT Hyderabad. Even the ones that do are still not well versed with the latest and greatest as thing change every year and what you learn today is obsolete the next quarter so you have to constantly unlearn and relearn. One has to be aware of the trends in the area and have to follow publications in conferences around the world to really be up to speed.

So it is pretty much a given that whoever I hire has to be trained from scratch in the area and whether I like it or not, I've had to do a basic CG course in every organization I've been in, sometimes multiple times for new hires. What I did find from this endeavor is simply that most people are simply ignorant about areas beyond what is taught in their college. Almost all are willing to learn and try to put in an honest effort into it. Yes there always are a few rotten apples here and there but by and large, what I find is that most fresh grads simply haven't been exposed to cutting edge technology. However most are smart enough to pick up things rather quickly.

It is not a question of ability, it is always a question of being exposed to the latest and greatest in the area. The same is true for experienced professionals as well. You have keep yourself up to date or else you'll fall behind.

 

[vishalrao]

I work in Computer Graphics and Virtual Reality since 2002.

OT, but curious, what kind of work do you do in this field? Coding (matrix multiplications, OpenGL/DirectX and such stuff?!) and/or artistic stuff like 3D modeling etc? The only graphics stuff I did was C/C++ programming for some textbook algorithms back in engineering college days for line drawing, 3D transformations etc and it sure was fun

 

[viktik]

No country has climbed to become developed the country without expansion and development of manufacturing sector. India wanted to become an exception by relying on IT industry.
IT industry hasn't helped much.
Also, India cannot snatch manufacturing from china. Instead, Indians are selling china made products by branding it as Indian.
So India is stuck.
it takes generations to climb the ladder of development. I think we have lost last 15 years.
Developed countries have advanced to such a level that its nearly impossible for India to develop competing core technology.
India is not even developing good products on top of western core technology.

 

[Chaos]

OT, but curious, what kind of work do you do in this field? Coding (matrix multiplications, OpenGL/DirectX and such stuff?!) and/or artistic stuff like 3D modeling etc? The only graphics stuff I did was C/C++ programming for some textbook algorithms back in engineering college days for line drawing, 3D transformations etc and it sure was fun

My artistic skills are almost zero. Most of my work revolves around writing code such as VR libraries, engineering first prototypes, implementing computer vision algorithms on a GPU etc. Just to give you an example, I'm currently implementing a method for concealing packet errors in a VR video stream using a method called asynchronous time warp.

Knowledge of an API is essential but more than that, one needs to have clear concepts of first principles - the stuff that you just mentioned.

 

[rdst_1]

My artistic skills are almost zero. Most of my work revolves around writing code such as VR libraries, engineering first prototypes, implementing computer vision algorithms on a GPU etc. Just to give you an example, I'm currently implementing a method for concealing packet errors in a VR video stream using a method called asynchronous time warp.

Knowledge of an API is essential but more than that, one needs to have clear concepts of first principles - the stuff that you just mentioned.

I'll have to remember that you work in VR and CG.
My brother, although a newbie at this stuff, also works with similar stuff, although not at such deep levels as you. He and 3 of his friends have a small firm and an investor who is currently paying them happily. They are currently developing a VR based app for the medical community where doctors can have better and more visual access to scans and X-rays.
Whenever he is working, I see that majority of his time is spent in learning the new stuff out there than writing the actual code. This is something that I find is completely lacking in a traditional college environment where neither the books nor the teachers are worried about updating themselves. We paid quite a lot of money for him to do a Video Programming course after his B.Tech but even there he had to do majority of learning himself. In hindsight, if he would have concentrated more on studying than gaming, we wouldn't have had to spend that much money after his B.Tech. However, since he wasn't self motivated at that point of time, it worked out pretty good for him that we sent him there as they pushed him hard to reach that state of mind where making games became more fun for him than playing them.

 

[erikaflower]

Unless the students are able to connect what they learn to how that applies in real world they will feel the same

You are right! But it seems like that it is not that easy to find the connection by themselves... I think that every time starting new topic or unit it should be explained where it can be useful, in which kind of task.

 

[adventureguy]

They are currently developing a VR based app for the medical community where doctors can have better and more visual access to scans and X-rays.

Damn. I know a guy who's working on exact same thing but using AR in Microsoft Hololens.

 

[Chaos]

Does asynchronous time warp require some understanding of latency, flow control and how page flipping & vertical synchronisation processes buffers in the VRAM at the conceptual level when working together under different modes in practice? Or does it also require some textbook knowledge of the graphics pipeline? I ask this because i've worked on flow control algorithms in the past.

You need to know both. You need to take care of the fact that this is a hard realtime problem. The process has to finish within a set amount of time (typically ~2ms). Also there is GPU pre-emption happening here. The app that is running is paused for a while when ATW takes place.

 

[Chaos]

So ATW, even in its latest implementation, crosses the 2ms threshold more often when rendering a frame that has normal/medium workload (scenario) complexity? Would you say that OS and GPU vendors have optimised scheduling as best as they possibly can but it is still GPU preemption that is holding back ATW? Would it be possible for you to estimate the time taken for scheduling and preemption to complete? Would you agree if i said, off the top of my head, that scheduling takes less than 0.25ms to complete but preemption takes anywhere from less than 1ms to crossing the 11.11ms (optimal 90Hz refresh rate threshold for VR) scanout deadline when rendering a scene where workload complexity varies from normal/medium to heavy?

Have you experimented with different GPU architectures? If so, then which GPU architecture has been more beneficial for ATW - Maxwell 2.0, Pascal from Nvidia or GCN 3.0/4.0 from AMD?

Best to split this discussion over to another thread as it is OT.

The ATW operation isn't an expensive process by itself. The shaders are as basic as they can get. Its the context switch in the GPU that is expensive. Also most GPUs can only preempt a thread/process at draw call boundaries so it takes a significant slice of time to do ATW. Many GPUs have a hardware scheduler (AMD) so this process happens faster. Most of the rest rely on software scheduling. However AMD has other driver issues so things aren't really any different. On mobile chips, things are even worse due to lack of standardization.

Normally the ATW thread wakes up a few ms (typically 4-5) before the vsync signal and then the operation is scheduled. The other overhead is that GL is single threaded so the GL context has to be ping-ponged between threads. This is solved by Vulkan however. There's also a new VR API (OpenXR) being defined by Khronos to do all these things so that irrespective of the HMD/VR device, the app/game engine doesn't have to change its interface. Right now its a mess in user-land as every HMD has its own API for frame submission/enabling disabling ATW etc.

At some point of time in the future, I expect ATW/ASW or similar depth based compositing processes to occur in a separate hardware block accessed by OpenXR. However this is still far far away.

 

[Mr.J]

So he's saying that there aren't enough core jobs for IIT students? Or there are jobs but they don't pay as per IIT students' expectations? And why even put IIT on pedestal?