more like if the govt takes any drastic action, opposition will start crying foul, these parties would sell out their own mothers if they get even a little chance to throw shade at othersI wonder if we have war with china then Russia will support whomno one gives a F to Pakistan, the only issue here is terrorists. Those rats are hard to catch!
Russia will try to play peace broker . It will be 60% on side of China and 40% of India.I wonder if we have war with china then Russia will support whom
They dont like China but have not much choice either. they are weak right now and China is a strong and wealthy neighbour plus they have border issue with them too. So better to play safe.
Problem is not Russia if we go to war with China. Problem is Pakistan. They will make most of that situation and China will end up funding them a lot to keep India engaged in both fronts.
We Indians are to blame for this. We remained slow while China's rose to a formidable level. Militarily they are now well equipped and most importantly they have top level cyberwarfare.
They can bring our electricity, hospitals, banking system, government systems and defence system in electronic warfare down to its knees. They are right next to USA in deadly cyberattacks.
This will hurt our economy really bad.
The way I see USA would be more supportive of India than Russia when it comes to China but they too will be enjoying their popcorns for some time before coming to help.
Edit- Also China as a power is not yet known exactly. On paper they are very strong. but They are very illusive of their real power. No one knows if they are just real Dragon breathing fire or Paper Dragon. Because they have not had any major war with any country since a long time .
Are there 5th generation aircrafts proven tech? or just fake propaganda because it has never seen real combat. Infact recent news are coming that Pakistan is not happy with Chinese planes and even some other countries have complained of Chinese fighter jets are not meeting their standards .
See even if your enemy is powerful but if you know their power it becomes much easy to understand what you are up against but with China they know the game of illusion.
Their best way to win a war is psychological. ...Dushman ko itna darado ki woh ladhna hi nahi chahe and come to terms.
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eh its not as exaggerated as you make it out but yeah, their military is way more advanced than ours but then no one knows if China would be the second Russia (all bark, no bite), govt really needs to step up the military budget even more, its incredible that only a few shorts years ago, our army didnt even have enough bulletproof jackets, forget about more advanced stuff, the old procurement system where everything was outsourced really crippled the army due to corruption, Murican Soldiers, specially Navy SEALs and their Delta Special forces are way better equipped than our special forces and its not even a competition between the two, corruption in Army Procurement has really ****ed us over,
definitely
Nah, I dunno about China but those F-35s are the real deal, the main breakthrough in fifth gen fighters is their stealth capabilites, and one of the biggest advantages of F-35s is that they dont have any exterior hardpoints, all of their payloads like missiles etc are within the shell of the aircraft. So basically, they can fly under the radar invisible, bomb the facility with us none the wiser, thats the biggest advantage of America, their Air superiority, very few countries can even begin to match their advantage, they can bomb all targets to hell and back before enemy defenses even spot them, Russia/Ukraine war is a prime example of the importance of Anti-aircraft warfare. India's air fleet is horribly outdated, our most advanced aircraft afaik is Sukhoi Su-30MKL, which is a third generation aircraft, and Russian quality control is spotty at best, heck we used ****ing MIGs in that Pakistan attack, and while its cool that the pilot was able to defeat a Pakistani F-16, the situation is just sad, to give you some perspective, the Mig 21 had its first flight in 1955! and the F-16 was introduced in 1978 and was a generational leap in Air warfare but still its almost 5 decades old, India really needs to either suck it up to US and buy a couple of F-35s or F-18s or they really need to do something on this front, we are hilariously outgunned
And while I doubt, we will be having a war with China anytime soon (too many SEA countries ready to support us to **** over China, the main one being Japan) and the fact that most of it would be fought on paper, we do need to upgrade our military hardware ASAP
variablevector
Forerunner
Tough choice. They either choose China and get an ally that is,I wonder if we have war with china then Russia will support whom
1) Even more of an industrial giant than the US in raw capacity, with the ability to manufacture nearly anything required for the Russian economy. From microcontrollers to passenger aircraft.
2) A lifeline for the Russian economy in its current sanctioned state, with a relatively richer consumerbase that they can sell Russian gas/oil, raw materials and other goods to.
3) A country with similar expansionist goals in the region that also has an increasingly tense relationship with the West, on account of Taiwan. Guaranteeing a high level of alignment of geopolitical goals.
Or they can choose India and get,
??) WE'RE OLD FRIENDS ??
2) I guess we buy a lot of your military hardware and oil
3) We've spent the last two decades getting cozier with the West and joining alliances like the Quad
I'm sure the Russians are struggling to choose. We need to understand realpolitk. Our natural and only ally in this region, despite historical evidence to the contrary, is the West. They don't really care about us, I know that. But going forward, in any future war between India and China/Pakistan, the only group that has any incentive to help us is the West. Not because we're chums and they would like to have us over for dinner, but we because we have common enemies and we have a few things that they don't (Geographic proximity, An abundance of young military aged men etc).
if you referring to my cyberwarfare comment...It is not exaggerated. China has a very strong cyberwarfare system in place . This has been said many times by Pentagon as well as UK Intellgience that when it comes to cyberattacks China is one of their biggest threats beside Russia and Pentagon has categorically said that militarily China may still be behind us but they have manage to close the gaps between cyber warfare.
In comparison India has falled way behind. It's cyber warfare capability is not well funded and only since last few years Govt. has slowly building it up.
USA has been offering India top of the line fighter jets( except for f-22s) if i am correct since quite some time but USA is not a reliable partner. Their offer come with long list of conditions.
Recently USA had denied Israel some access to weapons. Israel being one of the strongest ally of USA....hum toh easily disposable hai for USA.
Look at Turkey....they are now producing some of the most advanced Defence Aviation technology ...from drones to their new 5th Gen Aircraft. I dont know How come we got so left behind in Aviation technology that we have to literally get everything from outside.
I know in drones for defence we're are showing rapid development and possibly might have a very reliable attack drones in next 10 years but our 5th gen fighter jet is distant
Kaching999
Galvanizer
Well it's quite simple actually, the answer is pure corruption. These set high defence budgets but it is just to garner the attention of the media and the people and show that they take things really seriously but in reality the backroom dealings are laced with people pocketing the money for themselves. Innovation and opportunities for the right people is a big NO and when people from our own country leave and go work in other country and help them advance and develop they are called traitors, the irony is hilarious. Even if you try to do something for the country and get in one of the armed forces even for a technical job you won't be successful as the officers ranks are almost completely reserved for the "army families".
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Oracle
You don't fight on two fronts. You do a holding/blocking operation with the paks and go at the Chinese.
Why should the paks join? China has never assisted them in earlier wars against India. To this day there is no mutual defence treaty between the two countries because the Chinese aren't fools
China was assisted. We were not
Well equipped does not mean functioning well. Why no J17's scrambled the day after Balakote to use against India? No, they preferred to use their F16's instead.
Taking out Bombay's electricity, hospitals, banking system, government systems has zero effect on the border. It's more inconvenience. Cyber warfare cannot shape the battlefield and of limited use in war. It's more useful in peace time for psyops.
I'm not aware of them compromising our defense systems. Do you have any sources?
ISI honey trapping has been more effective I think
We are not as networked as the Chinese are. Therefore the cyber threat is more for China if we were to get into partnerships with the Taiwanese.
It will affect their economy as well. The question is what for? India has to not lose. They have to win. Anything less is an Indian victory.
US will help if we are prepared to be pointy spear for them. Are we willing to do that? No. We will not offer a shoulder for the Americans to take shots at China. We will not play Ukraine against China.
A military of little emperors ie. only kids with conscription against a professional one million standing army that will run circles around them in the mountains.
If China was so confident they should have attacked by now.
Bingo
Yes and western media is adding to that illusion.
I recommend you follow gunners shot to get an Indian take
GUNNERS SHOT
The Channel focuses on Defence and Strategic affairs with an emphasis on China. It also throws light on technology and its impact on geopolitics. Lastly the Channel devotes time for welfare of armed forces personnel.
youtube.com
The only YT channel I'm aware of run by a general. China watcher since the 80s, he's been calling out China's BS for years. It's only recently more people from around the world are agreeing.
Yes but of late we're turning it around on them
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If there was a war between china and India. The country which has the most drones and artillery win.
In Russia-Ukraine war, drones have taken over as the number one killing machine, followed by artillery.
Russia since the past year have been jamming GPS in many areas of Ukraine. So the US supplied JDAM bombs and GPS guided Excalibur artillery shells have all been useless. Sadly, India also in the past 5 years has taken delivery of Excalibur artillery rounds. The chinese for sure would now how to defeat it as well.
The Russians on the other hand are using laser guided Krasnopol artillery, where a drone or a person can point the laser designator. There is no way to jam this. It was even able to hit a slow moving targets like tanks, which is impossible with a GPS guided weapon.
Russia is firing 100s of missles a day but the sheer size of ukraine means, its just a drop in the ocean. Even Israel is unable to take care of such a small area of Gaza.
Only since late last year has Russia started to use their airforce. Due to lack of standoff weapons, which they have now solved.
Unlike the RuAF SU30SM/SU34/SU35. The IAF SU30MKI has lot of western stuff. Mainly for ground weapons we use the Israeli litening pod. Due to this we have access to bunch of Israel air to ground weapons.
Further more, the on-board computer and the OS is made by India and because of this, it can fire Israeli, Russian, French and Indian weapons.
Once the SU30MKI gets a AESA radar, new ECM pod and more powefull engines. It can see further and can carry more payload or fly higher. This will be more potent then F15I and F15E, which are used as flying bomb truck, that can also fend of air to air threats.
Even during the F16 clash, the only thing holding down the SU30MKI was the range of the export variant of the R77 missile 90km vs the 110km of the AIM120c5 missile of F16.
This was addressed immediately with the purchase of R77-1 and R27ER. In additions to the induction of DRDO ASTRA missile. Once the Astra 2 and 3 is inducted, the Rafale main edge of carrying Meteor missile will be negated.
Obviously none of the existing planes in IAF can take on 5th gen Chinese aircraft. Even if the J31/J35 is half as good as F35, it will be enough for them to get very close to launch a stand off missile at a S400 class SAM site or see first and shoot first against a 4th gen jet.
In Russia-Ukraine war, drones have taken over as the number one killing machine, followed by artillery.
Russia since the past year have been jamming GPS in many areas of Ukraine. So the US supplied JDAM bombs and GPS guided Excalibur artillery shells have all been useless. Sadly, India also in the past 5 years has taken delivery of Excalibur artillery rounds. The chinese for sure would now how to defeat it as well.
The Russians on the other hand are using laser guided Krasnopol artillery, where a drone or a person can point the laser designator. There is no way to jam this. It was even able to hit a slow moving targets like tanks, which is impossible with a GPS guided weapon.
Russia is firing 100s of missles a day but the sheer size of ukraine means, its just a drop in the ocean. Even Israel is unable to take care of such a small area of Gaza.
Only since late last year has Russia started to use their airforce. Due to lack of standoff weapons, which they have now solved.
Unlike the RuAF SU30SM/SU34/SU35. The IAF SU30MKI has lot of western stuff. Mainly for ground weapons we use the Israeli litening pod. Due to this we have access to bunch of Israel air to ground weapons.
Further more, the on-board computer and the OS is made by India and because of this, it can fire Israeli, Russian, French and Indian weapons.
Once the SU30MKI gets a AESA radar, new ECM pod and more powefull engines. It can see further and can carry more payload or fly higher. This will be more potent then F15I and F15E, which are used as flying bomb truck, that can also fend of air to air threats.
Even during the F16 clash, the only thing holding down the SU30MKI was the range of the export variant of the R77 missile 90km vs the 110km of the AIM120c5 missile of F16.
This was addressed immediately with the purchase of R77-1 and R27ER. In additions to the induction of DRDO ASTRA missile. Once the Astra 2 and 3 is inducted, the Rafale main edge of carrying Meteor missile will be negated.
Obviously none of the existing planes in IAF can take on 5th gen Chinese aircraft. Even if the J31/J35 is half as good as F35, it will be enough for them to get very close to launch a stand off missile at a S400 class SAM site or see first and shoot first against a 4th gen jet.
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Oracle
Artillery yes. Drones no. Drones got overhyped and the consensus from the Ukrainian conflict is they are not all people think they are from the Azerbaijan - Armenia conflict from where this drone hype began. Does like cyber can't shape a conflict.
Nothing can compete with artillery. It's for that reason those big guns are known as the gods of war.
This is the major reason we've been so confident against both adversaries. Our ability to handle an escalation via artillery. An ability sorely lacking during the UPA rule
A good question to put to our retired artillery General linked above. He does an open house on the weekends so go ask him and get a professional take
My answer would be Excalibur make up a minority of our artillery ammo. So the damage is limited
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I am not talking about MALE drones like predator or Bayraktur TB2, which have been useless in an area that has air defenses. I am talking about compact drones like Russian Lancet drone, which takes out moving targets and high value rapid deploy targets, that shoot and scoot like towed artillery, MLRS, western armor etc. Also cheap $200 FPV quadcopter drones which have strapped RPG or C4 strapped to them can take out anything, as long as its within radio and video transmission range of the operator which is typically around 2km to 11km, i.e when you factor in the battery charge.
Yes artillery is king, but the sheer amount of artillery wasted in russia-ukraine war is a lot, in terms of artillery fired to hit /kill ratio. Drones FPV drones are just as cheap as artillery shell, when you factor in the decrease in accuracy as the artillery gun wears down, recalibrating, reboring etc
We also have the Krasnopol laser guided shells. At the start of russian-ukraine war, russia used old shells with outdated electronics, the newer ones made during the conflict are highly accurate and effective. The drones which are hand launched, which do the laser designation and I have seem videos of them flying right above western provided anti drone/aircraft vehicles like UK provided Stormer and subsequently taking them out with either a Lancet drone or Krasnopol shell since for both of these need a live video to be transmitted back, you get instant battle damage assessment.
The Excalibur shells can still work in areas where there is no powerful weapons grade jammers. We only have 1200 shells of this type. Russia for example fires 10000 regular shells a day, used mainly for suppression fire or flattening stationary structures or to stop advancing armored assault dead in their tracks.
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Oracle
How well do they work in the mountains with temperatures around -30C and altitudes 14k feet plus.
Not as well as on flat plains like Ukraine
Might be as cheap but can you crank them out at the rate of artillery shells. Russians can fire 5k shells, miss completely and still be under the cost of one HIMARS
Artillery again behaves differently in the mountains. I mean dumb artillery here. The range is further but calculations are different.
I'm sceptical of tech in the mountains. The Americans tried in 2003 in Afghanistan and their tech edge was blunted. And these are foothills compared to where we are deployed
In the plains what you said holds. But if its against China then you want to stop them coming in and go on the offensive hitting their supply lines on a plateau 4km high. Nowhere for them to hide there.
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China is being deeply underestimated by Indians. Western reviewers seems to be discrediting China to show they are better to their naive audiences.
If China is making their own advanced fighter crafts, robotic systems, etc. which even some countries in west cannot imagine, they are miles ahead of many countries. India is not even anywhere near to them, our own fightercrafts are not that advanced and indigenous when compared to China's.
Even in economic development, India reaching level of China may take decades more.
If China is making their own advanced fighter crafts, robotic systems, etc. which even some countries in west cannot imagine, they are miles ahead of many countries. India is not even anywhere near to them, our own fightercrafts are not that advanced and indigenous when compared to China's.
Even in economic development, India reaching level of China may take decades more.
-30c would definitely hamper the range drastically, but if they use solid state batteries it won't be a issue. FPV drones are good for 8km height above sea level.
Also fixed wing hand launched drones can also be powered by fuel, but you can hear them coming from 1km.
Chinese are cranking more FPV drones then artillery production of western nations. But FPV drones have a very very high kill ratio. They can even disable a tank by hitting at the engine or tracks. Or fly right through a fortified underground bunker, the shock wave in a enclosed area means everyone is killed.
I think for artillery its trail and error. Since each mountain is different, a thermobaric weapon which makes a huge shock wave is probably better and if any poor soul is within the fire ball they are toast.
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Oracle
How much payload can you lift if taking off at 14k feet? Lesser than in the plains isn't it. This is the primary problem the plaaf faces from airfields in Tibet unlike us. So I expect similar to hold for drones.
All to say in the mountains surveillance by drones may work. For anything more kinetic it will be limited meaning the threat is much reduced than at sea level
In the plains
You drill and learn what works. But artillery is usable at heights. We proved this during Kargil already. At peak intensity we averaged over 10k shells daily. So we have a few decades of mountain warfare experience here which others don't have.
I doubt thermobarics are of any use in the mountains. Whether you can get a fuel mixture to ignite at the temperatures and altitude remains to be answered. And then there is the already reduced effect of using in an open area as opposed to more confined spaces
You're thinking tech when you want to be thinking human factor. Up in the mountains it's all about grit and guts.
Average posting for our guys is three months on the heights. During the standoff our army chief remarked the other side couldn't handle even ten days there without being rotated out. They have oxygen in their barracks to help them acclimate. None of our guys have that because we can acclimatise easier ascending through stages whereas for them it's a direct jump to the Tibetan plateau.
If people are injured it's 2h airlift to a state of the art hospital. They are 6,000km away from any hospital.
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The chinese have a whole range of drones, the world is way behind them. They have drones for everything. When i built drones nearly a decade back, my fpv quadcopter had a power to weight ratio of 6 times its own weight of 900 grams including battery. Todays motors and propeller designs are a lot more powerfull. My other hex copter, also a decade old had a thrust of 15.8kg with a empty weight of 5.8kg including battery.
The chinese have drones that can lift a person, they are using them to supply troops. While our troops still use animals.
The experience is quickly gained, with todays complex AI and simulation.
The thermobarics already have a fuel air mixture, they work even in russian winter. The USAF used a MOAB on a mountain in hopes of killing the Taliban deep inside caves, purely due to the shock wave. While the thermobarics also has a large fire ball that vaporise anything in the fireball radius.
While our troops may be better prepared to altitude and weather. Its always better not to underestimate the adversary.
What applies to them also applies to us. Since 2020, the chinese have built closer structures towards the LAC, upgraded air fields. It is we who are playing catch up.
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yes. Corruption beside some foreign power slowing our progress as much as it can by bribing these politicians and even killing our scientist or framing them like that famous Nambi Narayan case( Cant belive our own police was involved)
I recently saw on youtube podcast and one gentleman on Raj Shimani Show said we got Bofors as in transfer of technology and later our defence team came up with more modified design which was actually even better than that but that project was closed because Govt. still wanted to continue to procure defence equipment from abroad as even few percentage of these millions and billions of defence deals they make is enough to fund their elections. So they actually stopped Indian Defence Industry to rise and that put us many decades behind as Defence technology is a long term projects.
Now I never got to research more on it but I am not surprised even if 1/4 of this is true there is so much a country looses. This country has seen some great patriots but many more traitors too.
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Oracle
I'd like to see how much those drones can lift in high altitudes. Any idea?
Another factor is, extreme weather. Strong gusts coming from nowhere and your flying window will be considerably reduced. In any case their airforce is incapable of night sorties unlike ours.
A simulation is one thing but it's entirely another to actually fight a battle. In this space it's the Paks that would get more respect than the PLA and we beat the Paks
Can thermobarics work at high altitude though? Was arguing this with some Chinese guy a while back and there was a source i had that said they weren't usable above 10k feet. Can't find it now. He was talking about a successful thermobaric test in XJ but I pointed out that highest point in XJ is no more than 7k feet.
What is the point of using a thermobaric in the mountains? The effect will be reflected upwards. A waste of ordinance for little return.
Commies are big into infrastructure. I always hear how well developed their side is infrastructure wise. Well, the terrain on their side is easier as it's flat. Ours is not so it's harder to build on our side than theirs. There's no apples to apples comparison here.
There is something else in our favour. If you notice the routes from China into Tibet and then onto India. PLA starts off concentrated in Tibet but then branches out onto India which means each branch is weaker and can be outflanked.
Whereas the Indian side starts off branched out but ends up concentrated when it reaches Tibet. So they will have a harder time stopping us entering Tibet than the other way around
Kaching999
Galvanizer
If this turns out to be true I don't think that anyone will be surprised. I mean just look the recent cases that have blown up on social media with clear evidence and still those cases are ongoing and will probably be forgotten when new ones are uncovered and the vicious cycle just goes on. I mean have you have seen a politician with a completely spotless past, cause I haven't and probably never will every big politician in our country has been linked to or involved in some sort of corruption or criminal case but they still get to make the decisions and laws that run the country while the common man gets pushed to the edge every day. It actually breaks my mind and literally induces rage within me when I read about stuff like this.
This video explains how our elections and leaders got so f up
(It was due to money)
They have already done it.
Lifted oxygen cylinders on advance camp on Mt.Everest recently. About 6000m
And you can get crazy wind speeds there.
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Oracle
Two points
Max load was 15kg and the kicker is it was descending
How well can it handle that weight ascending
These are also fairly large, slow moving and visible so can be taken out by a sniper in war time
During Kargil it took heavy artillery fire, as well as the air force doing numerous bombing sorties to dislodge pak held posts in the heights. And after three months only 40 out of 160 were cleared.
Drones would be toys in comparison to the above. Not a game changer at all. Good for surveillance only.
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