Pakistan hikes defence budget by nearly 15 per cent in 2024-25

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I'd like to see how much those drones can lift in high altitudes. Any idea?

Another factor is, extreme weather. Strong gusts coming from nowhere and your flying window will be considerably reduced. In any case their airforce is incapable of night sorties unlike ours.

The drones that can lift even 50kg of weight exists, I had seen such drones 10 years back but their only limiting factor is the flight time. At those alititude yes the payload will be less. We have no idea what military grade drones can do. All we have seen are consumer or DIY drones.

Its a myth that the PLAF airforce cannot do night sorties. They have atleast 2 good thermal imaging sensor manufactures, in the russia ukraine war, the russians are using chinese thermal scopes and night vision. Their J31 has 360 degree flir cameras and if those cameras are half as good as the consumer thermal sensors that china sell, it will be vastly better then Russian or even french systems.

A simulation is one thing but it's entirely another to actually fight a battle. In this space it's the Paks that would get more respect than the PLA and we beat the Paks

Paks have participated in red flag excersie, so their training will be better. While the Chinese train with RuAF and with money paks instructors and pilots would have given the chinese every piece of information needed.

Can thermobarics work at high altitude though? Was arguing this with some Chinese guy a while back and there was a source i had that said they weren't usable above 10k feet. Can't find it now. He was talking about a successful thermobaric test in XJ but I pointed out that highest point in XJ is no more than 7k feet.

What is the point of using a thermobaric in the mountains? The effect will be reflected upwards. A waste of ordinance for little return.

Artillery in mountains need to be pin point, the shells just don't have any shock wave. If you are behind a bolder rock, it will shield you from sharpnel. But a thermobaric warhead creates a fire ball of atleast 150 feet diameter and a shockwave of 400 feet, killing everyone. I have seen the videos and pictures of russians moving into areas after unleashing a salvo from a Tos-1a. The entire 500 meter long industrial building zone was littered with dead ukrainens soldiers, either burnt or dead from the shockwave, this despite the fact that they where indoor inside the buildings.

Commies are big into infrastructure. I always hear how well developed their side is infrastructure wise. Well, the terrain on their side is easier as it's flat. Ours is not so it's harder to build on our side than theirs. There's no apples to apples comparison here.

There is something else in our favour. If you notice the routes from China into Tibet and then onto India. PLA starts off concentrated in Tibet but then branches out onto India which means each branch is weaker and can be outflanked.

Whereas the Indian side starts off branched out but ends up concentrated when it reaches Tibet. So they will have a harder time stopping us entering Tibet than the other way around

Lets be realistic, we are not be going into tibet. They have lot of airfields in Tibet. They can rapidly deploy.

Two points

Max load was 15kg and the kicker is it was descending

How well can it handle that weight ascending

These are also fairly large, slow moving and visible so can be taken out by a sniper in war time

During Kargil it took heavy artillery fire, as well as the air force doing numerous bombing sorties to dislodge pak held posts in the heights. And after three months only 40 out of 160 were cleared.

Drones would be toys in comparison to the above. Not a game changer at all. Good for surveillance only.

This is just a DJI industrial drone, specialized drones with hybrid engine exists, with a tiny fuel powered generator producing electricty to the lift motors. I had seen a video several years back of it crossing from mainland china to HK, this was in 2016. As said before its only the flight time that is a limiting factor not the payload capability. My self built drone could hover at 10 KG weight but with a flight time of just 3min at that payload. In that 3 mins you either hover and do nothing or move horizontally and get from point A to B.

 

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The drones that can lift even 50kg of weight exists, I had seen such drones 10 years back but their only limiting factor is the flight time. At those alititude yes the payload will be less.

Exactly

We have no idea what military grade drones can do. All we have seen are consumer or DIY drones.

Just double the payload for military grade.

Its a myth that the PLAF airforce cannot do night sorties. They have atleast 2 good thermal imaging sensor manufactures, in the russia ukraine war, the russians are using chinese thermal scopes and night vision. Their J31 has 360 degree flir cameras and if those cameras are half as good as the consumer thermal sensors that china sell, it will be vastly better then Russian or even french systems.

It's not about sensors but taking off at night from the altitude of those airfields that limits them. Giving our airforce a clear advantage.

We already know how difficult operations are given the conditions at DBO in daytime let alone at night. There are narrow windows where you can take off and not. The only workable airfields they have are in XJ and those are further away. The ones in Tibet are only good for resupply. Landing with load isn't a problem. Taking off is the problem.

Paks have participated in red flag excersie, so their training will be better. While the Chinese train with RuAF and with money paks instructors and pilots would have given the chinese every piece of information needed.

Red flag doesn't do high altitude operations because NATO doesn't expect to fight in these theatres. Neither do Russians expect to do operations there.

You will fight with half everything meaning you need large numbers. Which then makes you a tempting high value target since the Tibetan plateau is like a tabletop with nowhere to hide. Everything viewable by satellite and we can count on US Intel here. That's assuming those left which the environment didn't kill off already.

Artillery in mountains need to be pin point, the shells just don't have any shock wave. If you are behind a bolder rock, it will shield you from sharpnel.

Which makes it harder for them to target us since we have slopes but they do not.

But a thermobaric warhead creates a fire ball of atleast 150 feet diameter and a shockwave of 400 feet, killing everyone. I have seen the videos and pictures of russians moving into areas after unleashing a salvo from a Tos-1a. The entire 500 meter long industrial building zone was littered with dead ukrainens soldiers, either burnt or dead from the shockwave, this despite the fact that they where indoor inside the buildings.

Yes in a nice flat plain. The effects will be reduced if they try this in the mountains. How effective will they be?

Lets be realistic, we are not be going into tibet.

That's what a strike corps does. Go on the offensive. We've got two mountain strike corps. We're definitely going in.

They have lot of airfields in Tibet. They can rapidly deploy.

Only good for resupply and those supply lines are very long and vulnerable

Very difficult to launch offensive operations from Tibet

This is just a DJI industrial drone, specialized drones with hybrid engine exists, with a tiny fuel powered generator producing electricty to the lift motors. I had seen a video several years back of it crossing from mainland china to HK, this was in 2016. As said before its only the flight time that is a limiting factor not the payload capability. My self built drone could hover at 10 KG weight but with a flight time of just 3min at that payload. In that 3 mins you either hover and do nothing or move horizontally and get from point A to B.

The question is what purpose can you serve. Dropping small bombs here and there. How many of those drones would you need?

Everything you know about drones and their operations elsewhere needs to be configured for the mountain terrain we will be fighting in. A very different proposition.

Drones are not a game changer. Not a force multiplier. Just another option with specific applications.

This is a typical problem we see for long now. Concept or idea x, y, z in any field works great abroad but needs heavy customisation to be usable in an Indian context otherwise it will be a total flop.

 

[solo_wing]

is this about the 1980s scandal?

Yes but it wasn't about scam. Scam toh har deal mein hota hai. I am sure Rafale deal mein bhi hua hoga...that is now part of the way it works.

What is more sinister is and what they talked about is that in order to continue this ghotala . They didn't allow our defence organisation to develop indigenous weapons which was showing more promising results than the weapons procure .hence, pulling out defence industry 20 years behind .

Let me share the video .

 

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Exactly

Just double the payload for military grade.

There is no limit to payload, even flying cars tested in china are just drones with a pilot.

But let say they use that DJI drone, use the drone to lift supplies, the guys on peaks changes batteries and send stuff back down. The guys on top, use solar panels to charge the batteries.
Chinese already have surveillance cameras on mountain peaks powered by solar.

Where as in a typical scenario, the drone shows the time remaining for it to get back to the launch site. But if you have freshly charged spares batteries in location B, you can cover twice the distance or hover for longer time.

It's not about sensors but taking off at night from the altitude of those airfields that limits them. Giving our airforce a clear advantage.

We already know how difficult operations are given the conditions at DBO in daytime let alone at night. There are narrow windows where you can take off and not. The only workable airfields they have are in XJ and those are further away. The ones in Tibet are only good for resupply. Landing with load isn't a problem. Taking off is the problem.

They can take off with light fuel load and have a tanker 300km away to refuel mid air. Further more their J16 are 1 ton lighter, thanks to use of more composite materials, lighter AESA radar and their domestic engine produces 2 tons of more trust, so they have a total of 3 tons of additional load carrying capacity compared to our Su30mki. For air to air their J20 is far ahead in terms of trust to weight ratio and lower RCS.

Red flag doesn't do high altitude operations because NATO doesn't expect to fight in these theatres. Neither do Russians expect to do operations there.

Redflag is done mainly at high altitude only, most air to air combat training is done at the aircrafts max flight envelope. Every air to air and air to ground missiles/bombs fly further when launched at max altitude.

You will fight with half everything meaning you need large numbers. Which then makes you a tempting high value target since the Tibetan plateau is like a tabletop with nowhere to hide. Everything viewable by satellite and we can count on US Intel here. That's assuming those left which the environment didn't kill off already.

Which makes it harder for them to target us since we have slopes but they do not.

This may be true but even the IAF chief said it will take lot of bombs to even disable a runway and as ukraine war as shown, they are fixed quite fast. Hardened shellters take even more bombs and missiles.

Yes in a nice flat plain. The effects will be reduced if they try this in the mountains. How effective will they be?

Any explosion will have lethal effects to a living being in a enclosed area, in mountains that shockwave will have no where to dispate and its going to shred the lungs and blood vessels.

That's what a strike corps does. Go on the offensive. We've got two mountain strike corps. We're definitely going in.

While the military might willing to do the mission. The government would not want to escalate. Even the public will pressure not to escalate. Example right after Balakot air strike, I remember people on the streets having banners that said "no war".

Only good for resupply and those supply lines are very long and vulnerable

They do have good roads and rail connectivity.

Very difficult to launch offensive operations from Tibet

They have edge in number of ballistic and cruise missiles. They also have the edge in number of aircrafts. They will first try to take out SAM sites and disable as many aircrafts on the ground. Strikes on bridges and tunnel entrances.

The question is what purpose can you serve. Dropping small bombs here and there. How many of those drones would you need?

Everything you know about drones and their operations elsewhere needs to be configured for the mountain terrain we will be fighting in. A very different proposition.

Drones are not a game changer. Not a force multiplier. Just another option with specific applications.

This is a typical problem we see for long now. Concept or idea x, y, z in any field works great abroad but needs heavy customisation to be usable in an Indian context otherwise it will be a total flop.

Drones both air , Sea and land have been used in Ukraine to deadly effects. Simple FPV drones can take out anything that is on the ground. Once AI powered drones are deployed, then can operate autonomously without GPS and radio/video link.

Drones are the future and any country that is behind in this will see a huge defeat on the battlefield.

 

[rootyme]

Doda terror attack: 4 Indian soldiers killed

Jammu-Kashmir: Four Indian soldiers killed in gunfight

The relatively peaceful Jammu region has witnessed increasing violence in recent months.

www.bbc.com

https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/doda-terror-attack-4-soldiers-killed-what-s-fuelling-terrorism-in-jammu-124071600151_1.html

I've lost count of how many such news I have read since the day I posted this thread. And every single time I remember how some people downplay all this saying that we have a much bigger defence budget and that we shouldn't be poking nose into others' affairs.

 

[solo_wing]

Doda terror attack: 4 Indian soldiers killed

Jammu-Kashmir: Four Indian soldiers killed in gunfight

The relatively peaceful Jammu region has witnessed increasing violence in recent months.

www.bbc.com

https://www.business-standard.com/external-affairs-defence-security/news/doda-terror-attack-4-soldiers-killed-what-s-fuelling-terrorism-in-jammu-124071600151_1.html

I've lost count of how many such news I have read since the day I posted this thread. And every single time I remember how some people downplay all this saying that we have a much bigger defence budget and that we shouldn't be poking nose into others' affairs.

America has recently warned India that " you are not far from a war" when Modi visited Russia.

India would have by now taught Pakistan a good lesson but Pakistan still has American and most important China's full support.


I see 3 ways to counter this....One way is to start funding separatism In Baluchistan region ..full fledge like Pakistan does in kashmir.

second option is big war with Pakistan .

Third is let this go an and hope Pakistan will bleed itself and break up which is going to be a long fight and which we are doing right now. Sadly we will loose many of our brave soldiers along the way. Something that is not easy to say it but it is the fact.


I dont know what other plans Modi/Amit shah might have though..

 

[jiith77]

since the day I posted this thread.

This has been going on in jammu since 2021. Our media started highlighting it recently.

 

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America has recently warned India that " you are not far from a war" when Modi visited Russia.

Where did you see that?

This has been going on in jammu since 2021. Our media started highlighting it recently.

I've seen reports like this going back over ten years. Looking at the casualties over the last couple of decades the kill ratio is 1:3. We lose one of ours for every three we take out.

 

[solo_wing]

Where did you see that?

‘No war is distant’: Eric Garcetti’s blunt message to India over PM Modi’s Russia trip

US ambassador Eric Garcetti said several times during his speech that both India and the US shouldn’t take their relationship for granted.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

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‘No war is distant’: Eric Garcetti’s blunt message to India over PM Modi’s Russia trip

US ambassador Eric Garcetti said several times during his speech that both India and the US shouldn’t take their relationship for granted.

www.hindustantimes.com

Ah, well US AMB saying 'no war is distant' isn't the same as what you said 'not far from a war' which implies a war with India is imminent.

India would have by now taught Pakistan a good lesson but Pakistan still has American and most important China's full support.

Pakistan is a distraction. A nuisance.

What could happen is China tries to grab a slice of territory and then sit on it. This will then embarrass the government and domestic politics will do the rest.

China is the strategic competitor here that seeks to stop India's rise or at least dent it.

I see 3 ways to counter this....One way is to start funding separatism In Baluchistan region ..full fledge like Pakistan does in kashmir.

Apparently Chidambaram started this post 2009 but Modi stopped it after coming to office. Whether it has resumed recently is a matter of speculation when India facing militants got killed in the previous year inside Pakistan.

second option is big war with Pakistan .

Third is let this go an and hope Pakistan will bleed itself and break up which is going to be a long fight and which we are doing right now. Sadly we will loose many of our brave soldiers along the way. Something that is not easy to say it but it is the fact.

I dont know what other plans Modi/Amit shah might have though..

No plans for any conflict with Pakistan because it serves no purpose. But these low intensity J&K attacks will continue.

There may be contingency plans in the event of a larger casualties like Uri or Pulwama.

 

[jiith77]

Where did you see that?

I've seen reports like this going back over ten years. Looking at the casualties over the last couple of decades the kill ratio is 1:3. We lose one of ours for every three we take out.

I was referring to jammu. Let's try 20 years. Have we had pilgrim attacks in jammu. Or a 19 day encounter - or anything close to that count.
There has been some 15 to 20 attacks in jammu since oct 2021. Doubt we had that 10 years ago.
Disclaimer: Not blaming the government here. Just saying that it was way too serious before media headlines.

 

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I was referring to jammu. Let's try 20 years. Have we had pilgrim attacks in jammu. Or a 19 day encounter - or anything close to that count.
There has been some 15 to 20 attacks in jammu since oct 2021. Doubt we had that 10 years ago.

Oh, I'm referring to kashmir

Disclaimer: Not blaming the government here. Just saying that it was way too serious before media headlines.

There is a tendency by the government not to give too much publicity to such attacks because PR plays a big role in these insurgencies.

This effectively means less media reporting to none.

So it's plausible things could be worse than reported. This happens in the NE too.