PDP gives away J&K parts to China, Pak in slide show

[Safin]

High economic growth is not their target, its rather a means with which they want global dominance/superpower status.

Not really. The communist have no intention of the kind of global domination you are attributing to them

The growth is necessary for them to survive.

Banyan: The party goes on | The Economist

It is a commonplace that the party’s legitimacy is built on economic growth. Yet China’s leaders have long considered that to be merely the (simplistic) half of it. After the massacre, the Communist Party set about transforming itself. It launched a vast historical investigation into how political parties fall, and how they stay in power. Everyone was scrutinised, from Saddam Hussein to Scandinavian social democrats. The conclusion: adapt or die.

Communist China at 60 - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

What is the future of the communist party in China after 60 years in power? Are there any challenges to one-party rule?

While the party has had a very good run since 1979, its future prospects are less clear. Challenges to one-party rule will come from all directions. If the party succeeds in maintaining high rates of economic growth, then urbanization and the rapid increase in the ranks of the middle class will make it very difficult for the party to keep its political grip. And at the same time, if the party fails to deliver the economic goods, it will lose its legitimacy and its hold on power will grow shaky. For now, the party knows that its only survival strategy is to keep the economy growing.

There was an excellent writeup by Fareed Zakaria in newsweek on the same topic a couple of years back (will link once i find it online) but the main idea was that high economic growth is the only thing thats presently dissuading the local class of China from complaining.

 

[l33t]

You fellows really amaze me !!

Mehbooba is an opposition leader, she's not even ruling in Kashmir.

repeat after me...

Since when can an opposition leader 'give' away anything ?

Its not about being in the ruling party/opposition - Its the feeling of seperatism which can be a bit too hard to digest sometime. Too many kashmiri politicians have those seperatist ideologies , why is that they arent kept at bay ? Is it not sedition ?

I took this off the IPC-

Kind of Nails it,

So a feeling of separatism , and instigating it amounts to sedition, right ?

Whoever, by words, either spoken or written, or by signs, or by visible representation, or otherwise, brings or attempts to bring into hatred or contempt, or excites or attempts to excite disaffection towards. 2[* * *] the Government established by law in 3[India], 4[* * *] shall be punished with 5[imprisonment for life], to which fine may be added, or with imprisonment which may extend to three years, to which fine may be added, or with fine.

Explanation 1-The expression "disaffection" includes disloyalty and all feelings of enmity.

Explanation 2-Comments expressing disapprobation of the measures of the attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.

Explanation 3-Comments expressing disapprobation of the administrative or other action of the Government without exciting or attempting to excite hatred, contempt or disaffection, do not constitute an offence under this section.

OPPOSITION LEADER is supposed to be against the ruling party & NOT AGAINST THE COUNTRY, i still do not understand why is she even kept alive ? ?

Exactly what someone in my family said during the news , "Its time for precision bombing" he says We partly instigate voilence among them and they are too happy to get influenced :|

Not really. The communist have no intention of the kind of global domination you are attributing to them

The growth is necessary for them to survive.

Banyan: The party goes on | The Economist

Communist China at 60 - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace

There was an excellent writeup by Fareed Zakaria in newsweek on the same topic a couple of years back (will link once i find it online) but the main idea was that high economic growth is the only thing thats presently dissuading the local class of China from complaining.

China here has got its own set of ideological problems , Sort of an Identity crisis - I feel the press censorship/rights of the people being violated sparks that tinge of rebellion among the chinese, much like what happened in Beijing in 1989.

 

[guru]

Which region is that?
If you mean Aksai Chin, then you are wrong. People of that region have nothing to do with China. Infact, down south and west, all of Tibet would have nothing to do with China but for the forced movement and settlement of the Han Chinese, who themselves have now formed a loose bond with the local people.

China is powerful but its power is pretty much dependent on strict censorship and ability to control and model the opinion of people. (eg. you would be surprised, or maybe not, to know that Chinese TV and media has not covered any developments in Egypt. )

Talking about war is one thing, winning it quite another.

As for beating the "shit" out of India goes, to do that, the scale of war would have to be such that it won't remain a regional war but a world war.

this.
the comparison with Tibet and kashmir are naive.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

Not really. The communist have no intention of the kind of global domination you are attributing to them

yeah right. and i'm from mars

 

[blr_p]

Its not about being in the ruling party/opposition - Its the feeling of seperatism which can be a bit too hard to digest sometime. Too many kashmiri politicians have those seperatist ideologies , why is that they arent kept at bay ? Is it not sedition ?

I was waiting for someone to say this. Let's see who is going to charge her with such.

She would love the PR. She senses Omar is weak and is moving in for the kill.

They are watching what happened in Egypt & Tunisia. Day is not far when they will try the same. Hmm when is stone throwing season, oh yeah, this Jun-Sept should be interesting.

What will our response be ?

I took this off the IPC-
Kind of Nails it,
So a feeling of separatism , and instigating it amounts to sedition, right ?

When's the last time somebody actually got charged with this ?

China here has got its own set of ideological problems , Sort of an Identity crisis - I feel the press censorship/rights of the people being violated sparks that tinge of rebellion among the chinese, much like what happened in Beijing in 1989.

And the CCP learnt after '89 that it is was reform or perish. They've been doing so since. So far they have been doing a good job with reditributing the wealth.

Nobody can say how long they will last. So long as growth is in the high single to dbl digits they will be safe. The danger comes ten years from now when growth rates will be half. But you know they will also be a lot older, so how many young ppl will there be to go out and protest. This also means they get a lot less jingoistic & nationalistic. We should see some positive movement on our border disputes around this time.

Inflation in China is currently running at 10% btw. They just have to revalue the currency when the time is right to control it.

 

[Safin]

this.

the comparison with Tibet and kashmir are naive.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---


yeah right. and i'm from mars

I couldn't have thought of a better response myself. Kashmir and Tibet comparison, indeed! Maybe you could read again before commenting next time.

They are watching what happened in Egypt & Tunisia. Day is not far when they will try the same. Hmm when is stone throwing season, oh yeah, this Jun-Sept should be interesting.

What will our response be ?

Good Point.Actually if all of them resort to similar tactics as the guys in Egypt did, i don't think we have a response. Well the bright side is that we have 4-5 months to think of one. :lol:

This also means they get a lot less jingoistic & nationalistic. We should see some positive movement on our border disputes around this time.

blr_p, highly unlikely. The only outcome of aging population would be diminished ability to go out and protest. It will have no impact on their thinking though. The communists bank on nationalism to keep the country united(apart from the economy) and i don't see them softening their approach anytime soon.

 

[l33t]

When's the last time somebody actually got charged with this ?

Err , Binayak Sen ? - Charged for sedition on different grounds alright , but what I'm trying to say is - Locking these kind of characters is completely possible , just that it might turn into a publicity stunt , might scare the wits out of the Abdullah Govt.

positive movement on our border disputes around this time

Lots of Curious Chinese tourists , 'mistakenly' entering India - And taking pictures of BSF installments, that kinda stirs things up on both sides.

 

[NinByChoice]

Which region is that?
If you mean Aksai Chin, then you are wrong. People of that region have nothing to do with China. Infact, down south and west, all of Tibet would have nothing to do with China but for the forced movement and settlement of the Han Chinese, who themselves have now formed a loose bond with the local people.

Im talking about PoK and the region that Pakistan gave away to China. The Han resettlement is a good way of culturally conquering a minority region. The very fact that Hans are able to move about freely means that Tibet is nothing but a state rules by China. Things in India are not much different.

 

[blr_p]

Good Point.Actually if all of them resort to similar tactics as the guys in Egypt did, i don't think we have a response. Well the bright side is that we have 4-5 months to think of one. :lol:

I'm unsure whether they've already done this in the past. So long as they continue to have elected govts instead of Presidents rule then any demonstration lacks legitimacy. And i think thats the key. In egypt & tunisia the forces there did not stop the ppl because they felt the movement was legitimate.

blr_p, highly unlikely. The only outcome of aging population would be diminished ability to go out and protest. It will have no impact on their thinking though. The communists bank on nationalism to keep the country united(apart from the economy) and i don't see them softening their approach anytime soon.

Then its irrelevant whether the CCP stays or goes as far as we're concerned.

Err , Binayak Sen ? - Charged for sedition on different grounds alright , but what I'm trying to say is - Locking these kind of characters is completely possible , just that it might turn into a publicity stunt , might scare the wits out of the Abdullah Govt.

Ok, but he's being charged with a great deal more than just making a map

Roy had this same rubbish foisted on her for making statements. Nothing panned out.

From this i conclude talking about it isn't going to get anybody charged no matter how much certain sections might call for it.

Lots of Curious Chinese tourists , 'mistakenly' entering India - And taking pictures of BSF installments, that kinda stirs things up on both sides.

We're sitting on land they claim to be theirs not the other way around.

If we choose to draw our borders in a certain way, then we learn to deal with the consequences.

 

[adder]

We have insurance that is Nukes,so countries will think twice if they want to start a war.

Why do you think USA didn't invade pakistan or why India didn't go for any air strikes after 26/11.
While india will mostly use them as second strike the same can't be said for pakistan.

Also India military of today is much more capable then in 1962.Chinese don't train or do any military exercise with western countries.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Nukes? Well, firstly there is a doubt that we can detonate a nuclear warhead successfully and by the time India gather guts and makes a decision for a nuclear attack most of the damage would have been done.

Chinese military is also much more capable now than 1962.

Why do you think USA didn't invade pakistan

Why would US invade Pakistan? :S

And Pakistan does not have the capability to detonate a nuclear strike on US, there capability is limited to southern Asia

India didn't go for any air strikes after 26/11.

India can detonate a nuclear warhead much much faster than Pakistan although India will take a long time to decide whether or not to go for it.

The reason for not going to war with Pak post 26/11 is not because they have "nuclear weapons". There are other things that need to be taken into consideration and not just nuclear capability.

 

[Hacker]

Indian govt should have the balls to allow Indian citizens to purchase property in Kashmir and settle there.

 

[adder]

Nukes? Well, firstly there is a doubt that we can detonate a nuclear warhead successfully and by the time India gather guts and makes a decision for a nuclear attack most of the damage would have been done.
Chinese military is also much more capable now than 1962

Well we can detonate a nuclear warhead.What i am saying the very fact that we have nukes would make the chinese think twice.

Why would US invade Pakistan? :S
And Pakistan does not have the capability to detonate a nuclear strike on US, there capability is limited to southern Asia

Pakistan can nuke the us troops in Afghanistan.
Hillary clinton did warn pakistan of severe consequences if another 9/11 type attack or if the now failed NY bombings had succeeded.Currently USA doesn't have ground troops in pakistan.

Look at N.Korea they sunk a S.korean destroyer ,they motor bombard a island of S.korea.Yet USA didn't attack like they did a few decades ago.Why its because the N.korea now have nukes.

Pakistan media do say that it having nukes is one of the reason USA did'nt invade it,considering the 9/11 bombers were traced back to pakistan and the fact that their ISI informed Osama bin laden about CIA coming to get them,the now retired ISI person proudly acknowledges that in a History channel interview.

India can detonate a nuclear warhead much much faster than Pakistan although India will take a long time to decide whether or not to go for it.
The reason for not going to war with Pak post 26/11 is not because they have "nuclear weapons". There are other things that need to be taken into consideration and not just nuclear capability.

Sure there are many reasons but nukes are one of the main reason why india didn't attack pakistan.

 

[l33t]

Well we can detonate a nuclear warhead.What i am saying the very fact that we have nukes would make the chinese think twice.

Errr ,You'd want to think twice sire , China wouldn't give a sh*t about we dropping nukes on ud ,they are pretty well prepared for it , We on the other hand we aren't , except for the Indian government up at Delhi , we'd not have many left - Just to give you a comparison of what we are up against

People's Republic of China and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The launch vehicles of theirs ,are pretty darn good , since their research wing picks the best out of chinese universities ,unlike us, who give out Advertisements on News Papers for making up DRDO's research staff.

^I'm not saying that leads to substandard quality of arms / but thats the cause - atleast partly.

ndia can detonate a nuclear warhead much much faster than Pakistan although India will take a long time to decide whether or not to go for it.

The reason for not going to war with Pak post 26/11 is not because they have "nuclear weapons". There are other things that need to be taken into consideration and not just nuclear capability.

Sure there are many reasons but nukes are one of the main reason why india didn't attack pakistan.

We don't even know how many nukes of ours are active for detonation , how are we going to blow em up faster than pakistan ?(which keeps its nukes on standby - pointed right at our borders)

 

[blr_p]

Sure there are many reasons but nukes are one of the main reason why india didn't attack pakistan.

I've often wondered about this chasing a few theories. if you go by this article then its because we were unsure how they would react. We don't know their redlines.

26/11: How India debated a war with Pakistan that November

Indian govt should have the balls to allow Indian citizens to purchase property in Kashmir and settle there.

And how well did this tiranga yatra go ?

Can't hoist a flag where you want and you're talking about citizens purchasing property !

The last thing we need is for this to blow up and attract intl attention. Not that we care but its a distraction we can do without. Especially at a time when we're on the UNSC.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Why its because the N.korea now have nukes.

They never conducted any nuclear weapon test IINM, and The reason USA did not take offensive action against N. Korea is because it is backed by China, plus there are some other reasons as well.

Pakistan media do say that it having nukes is one of the reason USA did'nt invade it

That is just for the citizens ego-satisfaction, USA wont hesitate to eradicate Pakistan IF Pakistan gives US a reason to.

What i am saying the very fact that we have nukes would make the chinese think twice.

It rather goes the other way around.

China doesnt care much about loosing a city or two, but India does. Chinese defense system is much better prepared then ours to counter a nuclear strike.

And India has a policy of no-first use, get your facts right.

We don't even know how many nukes of ours are active for detonation , how are we going to blow em up faster than pakistan ?(which keeps its nukes on standby - pointed right at our

borders)

We have enough nukes on standby, it would take around 9-10 minutes (or maybe less) after the decision to make a nuclear strike is made for a nuclear warhead to reach Pakistan

 

[blr_p]

They never conducted any nuclear weapon test IINM,

They did but it fizzled so nobody was impressed

It rather goes the other way around. China doesnt care much about loosing a city or two, but India does.

This is an interesting way of putting it but on the whole i'd agree. Chinese never shirked from sacrifing their own to achieve their goals. History over the last 150 years would support this assertion. We don't want to get into a game of 'chicken' with them

We have enough nukes on standby, it would take around 9-10 minutes (or maybe less) after the decision to make a nuclear strike is made for a nuclear warhead to reach Pakistan

I would dispute this notion for China, Pakistan & India together. Neither country has any nukes on standby, they're all in component form. There is a sufficient lead time here to deployment which is a good thing.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I would dispute this notion for China, Pakistan & India together. Neither country has any nukes on standby, they're all in component form. There is a sufficient lead time here to deployment which is a good thing.

I don't know about China or Pakistan but India does have nukes on standby and have the capability to strike Pakistan within 20 minutes.

We don't want to get into a game of 'chicken' with them

Exactly

 

[muzux2]

Indian govt should have the balls to allow Indian citizens to purchase property in Kashmir and settle there.

You might be knowing that there is an Article 370 which prevents indian citizens from other states to purchase land or property in J&K. Funny thing is if a kashmiri women marries with a men of other states, the couple still can't own property in kashmir as she will lost her status as a permanent resident of J&K. She may not hold govt jobs, can't vote, their childrens can't get admission to colleges/Universities.

Indian citizens can purchase property only if there is abrogation of Article 370. I highly doubt this will happen.

 

[blr_p]

I don't know about China or Pakistan but India does have nukes on standby and have the capability to strike Pakistan within 20 minutes.

Sources ?

...........

 

[l33t]

Sources ?

...........

Exactly what I wanted to ask , Some time ago I - Reports said that The full extent of the damage of the Nuclear warheads in India is not known , then the other day a babu in the Defense Ministry off record says we dont know how many are active , and then I hear this , a 20 Minute ultimatum