Belkin is being pushed around because of their warranty and insurance coverage of upto 50,000 INR I guess.
power strip with spike and surge protector
- Thread starter viktik
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Sorry for off topic but can I use this protector with Invertor port ? Purpose is to get more devices on backup and protect all of them ?
Devices would be router, hdd, pi, ps3 may be ?
I used to do so with my now defunct, not inverter, but UPS.
Vagabond
Herald
Potentially destructive surge might occur once every seven years. So what did a UPS do? It failed to provide any hardware protection on what was probably the only surge it saw.
If a protector does not have that always required and dedicated wire to earth ground, then it does not even claim to protect from typically destructive transients. For example, Belkins have no such earth ground and will not even discuss it.
Largest hyped warranties are typically found in lesser products. Good luck getting those warranties honored. Warranties are full of exemptions. Newsman in "SONY TiVo SVR-2000" describes his experience:
srikanthuk
Contributor
Well if in the case only the UPS got damaged due to the surge, we can actually use consider the UPS as a sacrificial device. Let the UPS get damaged to protect the other devices that are connected to it. Though this is useless for really high surges like what you stated in the case of a lightening strike. Smaller surges like transients in the power system can be protected by this. Its very rare for each equipment to have a direct connection to earth and normally its always connected to an Earth Grid. Separate Earth Connections to the ground are normally given to Power Sources (Like transformers, generators, etc) or extreme critical equipment. I don't think the OP has either in mind.
Protection by a sacrificial device is a classic urban myth. It requires forgetting how electricity works.
If electricity is incoming to that UPS, then electricity is also outgoing into attached appliances - simultaneously. At the same time, that current is outgoing from that appliance to earth. Long later, something or some things in that path fail.
Protection from smaller surges is already inside appliances. Existing protection is why a surge can pass through a protector and attached appliance. Near zero protection in a protector is damaged. That same current is made irrelevant by protection inside appliances. So a 'sacrificial' myth is created to explain what is really robust protection already inside the appliance. In some cases, that protection is an appliance converting a surge current into rock stable, low DC voltages to safely power its semiconductors.
Do not confuse safety ground in a receptacle with earth ground. Those are electrically different.
Appliance need not have an obvious connection to earth. Some excellent conductors are some wall paints, vinyl floor tile, or even a computer wire hanging down behind a table to touch baseboard heat. Once a surge gets inside, it finds many conductive paths that we overlook. Some assume surges (ie lightning) are capricious. Because we learn what is conductive after the fact. Even a concrete floor is an excellent conductor. Best protection is to always connect that current to earth so that it need not find those so many other electrical conductors.
Sacrificial devices are an urban myth promoted when one forgets how electricity works.
after a thunderstorm the hdmi ports on my tv conked off even though i had unplugged it at the time to protect from surges. read a lot of posts on how the coax cable of the dth is known to be a big cause of this as the lightning strike may be conducted through it.
so it seems even if your surge protector helps you, you might still get affected by a lightning strike (unless you disconnect the coax cable on your stb)
so it seems even if your surge protector helps you, you might still get affected by a lightning strike (unless you disconnect the coax cable on your stb)
you are probably correct. though my UPS purchase was intended for only backup purpose. regards belkin & the warranties, I don't believe that such huge-returns warranties are/would be honoured, atleast easily (case like being 'too good to be true'). thus I didnt care when i decided to buy my present belkin gold spikeguard which is/was an out-of-warranty purchase made 4 years back.
srikanthuk
Contributor
You make Electricity sound like some ancient evil that cannot be controlled. Sacrificial protection is not exactly a myth, maybe in households yes (not sure) but in general it is there. There are plenty of Surge Protection Devices places near heavy equipment to protect them from heavy surges.
Again I'm not sure how household UPS's work since i haven't opened one of them nor have i studied their schemes, i hope bigger brands use good design schemes considering their prices. But the basic philosophy of Earth/Surge Protection is Current flows through the path of least resistance. In the case of body Earthing connecting the body of a device to the Earth grid through a low resistance path (Copper, GI, etc) will divert the majority current through that path, its not a complete diversion but the damaging current. In the case of Surge Protection a high impedance surge protection device is placed in between the line and Earth, on the detection of a surge, the impedance gets shorted and the surge is passed to Earth Directly (since it is a much lower resistance path) probably a smaller current will go through the circuit but considering surge currents of 50KA, etc this current will be much smaller. Based on your design you can control the current. These surge protection devices can be sacrificial or reset-able. There are also lots of switching devices capable of breaking high ampere currents or current rise during a short period of time.
But none of this is worth discussing in households i agree (maybe at the main incoming point of the society it should be considered possible for safety reasons but thats a different discussions). Now the power output coming out of a Online UPS is not the main supply power (to my knowledge, please correct me if i am wrong), it is the power from the battery. So in the case of a online UPS for a degree of surge the damage is limited to the rectifier and battery. A properly designed one should be able to create a short to earth (through a surge protection device) in case of a really high surge but this is sacrificial mostly.
I don't think the current leaving the appliance primarily goes out through Earth (again correct me if I am wrong) i always though it went through the neutral. May need to read up on that.
About devices having a margin to protect smaller surges sure thats true but stating that protection is all that is there and anything upstream is a waste means stabilizers and other protection devices are useless is also wrong, it provides a protection in a larger range.
True a receptable Earth and the ground earth are not the same. The receptable earth is not connect to ground earth directly, it reaches there through a longer path. But thats why we use should ELCBs in all circuits to detect a earth fault and trip other circuits that would get effected.
srikanthuk
Contributor
Yup current can come in through an conducting source. Your DTH uses co-axial cables that can connect the current to your device. Thats why its recommended to disconnect your DTH box as well. Basically completely isolate your device.
A concept taught to first semester engineers is superposition. To a surge current, that that battery is a short circuit. Therefore a UPS battery gives a surge (ie on hot wire) more paths into an attached appliance on all three wires (hot, neutral, and safety ground).
If a surge current is incoming to a victim (appliance), that current at the same time must have an outgoing path. How electricity works has never changed. If that current is incoming to a 'sacrificial part', that same current is simultaneously outgoing from that sacrificial part. Protection is and has always been about connecting that current to earth on a path that is not destructive. Protection means connecting that current to earth BEFORE it can enter a building. Once inside, that current hunts for destructive paths to earth via appliances.
Another example of a 'sacrificial device' would be a fuse. Fuse even has a voltage number to define how a 'sacrificial part' works. Ie 250 volts. That means it can only disconnect current if a resulting voltage remains below 250 volts. If that voltage is higher, a blown fuse continues to conduct current - does no protection. Surges blow through and keep conducting through 'sacrificial parts' or isolators until a surge finally decides to terminate.
First a current is everywhere in that path at the same time. A current entering a battery or diode is also outgoing from a UPS and passing through an attached appliance. A surge is a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary so that current continues to flow. Nothing - not even a sacrificed device - will 'block' or avert a surge current.
Surge damage is a connection to earth. Virtually every professional organization says so. Nothing can block a surge - not even isolators hyped only by advertising. Effective protection has always been about connecting current to earth on a not destructive path. Franklin demonstrated it over 250 years ago. Every facility that cannot have damage always earths that surge. Only ineffective products claim to protect from surges using magic 'blocking' devices or sacrificing.
Sacrificial protection devices create another problem - fire. Pictures demonstrate what happens when a protector is grossly undersized - ineffective. These pictures do not prove a protector device (MOV) is defective. Pictures demonstrate how fully effective devices become sacrificial when grossly undersized - to increase profits and promote more sales:
http://www.zerosurge.com/technical-info/truth-about-movs/
Neutral wire is only another path for the incoming surge. Never assume a surge enter on a hot wire and leaves on a neutral or safety ground wire. More basic concepts explain why that assumption has no credibility.
Effective protection always answers this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protection has always been about absorbing that energy in earth.
TTK
Apprentice
Since this thread has come up again, any suggestions for routers? Our main router aka pfsense virtualized on ESXi took a hit on one of the LAN cards and we had a 6 hour downtime. This was complicated by the fact that due to the rains, getting spares took a hit as well.
What kind of internet connection did you have, Adsl?
Few years ago, I had a surge through my cable broadband and it killed the ethernet port of my pfsense router. Now i use an ethernet to optical media converter between the modem and the router.
hotshot05
Herald
Can you provide link for ethernet to optical converter?
Does it make sense for home use?
@hotshot05 This is what I use at home to protect against surges through coaxial cable. Not sure if this is an issue with ADSL as well.
How does a surge enter on a cable that already has best protection? It doesn't.
An electrical current entered on an ADSL line, damaged a router, and then stopped? Nonsense. We all learned in elementary school science that electricity never works that way. If a surge is incoming on ADSL cable, then what was its outgoing path? No path defined because no such path can exist. Surge was not incoming to ADSL.
That damage is classic of a surge incoming on AC electric and outgoing via the properly earthed protection on ADSL cable. A homeowner's mistake all but inviting that surge inside.
Protection means every wire inside every cable must already make a low impedance connection to the same earth ground that is also best protection for ADSL. Because that cable already has best protection and because a homeowner all but invited a surge inside, then that surge hunted for and found a best path to earth via ADSL protection. Damage because a surge was permitted inside due to human mistake..
That fiber optic cable means a next surge may simply find another appliance to destructively connect to earth. Best protection (that costs less) means a surge must be earthed BEFORE it can enter. Optic cable is used only after effective and proven protection has first been implemented.
A surge entering on ADSL cable cannot exist if the always required and best protedtion was installed. That damage is classic of a surge incoming on AC mains. Because ADSL already has best protection. What was installed to avert a surge incoming on AC mains?
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