Questions on Android phones?

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Boot_Comp

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Was wondering why Android OS phones cost almost as much as phones with proprietary OS (Blackberry, iPhone, Windows etc.)?

Does Google provide support for Android the way MS does with their OS (helpline, customer service resolution of any issues etc.)?

Also how do end users (we consumers) benefit from using a phone with Android as compared to one with WinMo or a blackberry?

Appreciate any insights into this.
 
- The cost of the OS itself is not that much as compared to costs of hardware/manufacturing/R&D/logistics/royalties so similar prices

- Support is given by individual manufacturers not OS maker. True also for winmo/ms

- Benefits/drawbacks have been discussed at length in various threads in the forum, so no short answer
 
- Ok. So I guess then we might say that an Open Source OR Proprietary does not really make any difference here?

- Yeah think thats right (was thinking of desktops OS'es when I asked that :)).

- For an open source OS on mobiles I can only think of benefits for geeks. Are there any for normal consumers?
 
^^ Yeah, price wise foss vs close doesn't make a significant difference by itself. However, manufacturers are flocking to it because of these benefits:

1. A competitive OS (to iphone) without paying a dime

2. Freedom to change stuff

3. Lesser R&D as software is being developed worldwide

This all actually translates to a lot of extra profits for the manufacturers (or will translate in long run), but they don't pass it down to the consumers as yet.
 
Hmm...
This is something that does not feel right, if consumers like us do not benefit in any way from these reduced costs. :no:

It would be really good if we can pay only for the hardware and then load an OS (and other software) that we desire. Something like the state of desktop OS'es today.
I guess we'll need someone to come along and make this happen (sort of the equivalent of MS with IBM if you know what I mean :cool2:). Consumers WIN.
 
Slowly I am getting a feeling that Android is a bubble that might burst any time. It's growing too fast and that is not good. Moreover, not placing any control on how the OS is tweaked is sometimes creating headache for end-users. Best examples are:

1. AT&T putting lot of restricstion and truckload of bloatware that users cannot uninstall (Galaxy S/Captivate) or disable. This has let to some frustrating experiance and geeks had to install custom ROM just to get rid of bloatware.
2. HTC Sense UI. yes it is good but there is no way that I can uninstall apps like Peep, HTC Mail, Messaging etc that I don't want to use as I prefer better alternatives. As a result, every time I get mail or message, both my preferred app and HTC's app trigger notification.
3. It takes too much time for manufacturer's to push updates that are given by Google coz they have truckload of compatibilities to check, integrate their UI etc. Best example is phones like X10 series which are yet to get 2.1 update.

Even if you take hardware wise, take a look at sub 20k Android phones. They are worthless piece of crap and most non-android phones beat them to pulp in feature set. If Android is free to use, when the heck will manufacturers stop acting like a greedy idiots and bring out some VFM Android phones?

There are times where I would love to see Apple like restrictions imposed by Google on top of Android to make sure that every one gets those well needed updates.

And this is where MS Windows Phone 7 will be a success. It's not too close like Apple's iOS and it's not too open like Android. MS is allowing manufacturers to build winpho 7 phones but at the same time is not allowing them to get too carried away.
 
Boot_Comp said:
Also just came to know that apparently the G2 cannot stay rooted (read here for details).
If this is the direction that Android is heading it is really disappointing.
Click to expand...
yes. this is another concern. After Moto D:X, it's HTC's turn to put the hammer down on rooting. I just don't understand what their problem is. They don't provide proper updates and they don't let users to take alternate route. If this continues then someday they will face the wrath of angry users.
 
So true. With all the hype of a "free" OS, I still had to fork out 22k for my Legend. No doubt the Sense UI is good, but the current androids are way overpriced. I think the phone manufacturers are making a killing at the cost of us consumers.
 
paraman said:
Nice write-up on this very subject: Neowin.net - Why Android is failing, iOS is doing OK and WP7 could save the day
Click to expand...

That article starts off OK but then goes on to spout so much of FUD, it's not even funny...Few facts that he goes against:

- iPhone updates do not go for 2-3 year old devices..Take the latest update 4.0. It is available for 3G onwards but it makes your 3G device unusable. Practically it is available only for 3GS onwards which means 1 year old devices only. Pretty pathetic seeing they are controlling everything but still couldn't do it.

- Device specs may be different in android but it is not just a bane, it is also a boon. Because of Android's structure only guys who could afford only cheap feature phones from nokia/ericsson can now get a smartphone as well.

- Android OEMs bloatware cannot be removed but WP7's can be. BS. You cannot remove apps installed by OEM even in WP7. All you can do is remove the shortcut from the homescreen. You can do the same in android too.

- The clincher. New iOS and WP7 apps can run on old versions of OS but Android's can't. Lol, has he ever written any apps for any of the platforms? All 3 of these have new APIs being added all the time which will make new apps incompatible with old versions. Same way as he describes you can use same skype app on iPhone 4 and iPhone 3GS with only limited functionality, it is also true for android. That new apps can make use of new features of new version but still work on old versions with limited feature set. In fact, android is much better than iOS and WP7 in this regard because of a java-like environment that even if an API itself doesn't exist, the app which could have crashed in iOS/WP7, in android you can just use reflection to find out about it and continue working. Also iOS is pretty bad in this regard because with android you can make apps for any version of Android while with iOS, you can not even target and deploy an app for version < 3.0 anymore.

I agree with the basic point that the main problem with Android is modifications and update delays done by OEMs but that article is hardly something to point towards for understanding the issues.

Edit: btw the article's title gave me a good laugh "why android is failing" :P
 
As for the cost question, Microsoft charges something like ~$15 for Windows Mobile per phone. So even if Google was selling Android, I dont think 500-700 Rs would make that much difference to a phone costing >20k.

Yes, the manufacturer probably makes some money, but its like 2.5% (500 on 20k), so I will give them that :P Its more the freedom to customize and currently one of the best Mobile OS available to multiple mobile manufacturers, the only other ones being Symbian/Win Mo/Meego.
 
So then the openness doesnt really reduce the price of the phones for consumers.

And as all phone manufacturers void the phone warranty if you root it or load custom ROM's what tangible benefit does an 'open OS' really provide to end users?
 
Boot_Comp said:
So then the openness doesnt really reduce the price of the phones for consumers.
And as all phone manufacturers void the phone warranty if you root it or load custom ROM's what tangible benefit does an 'open OS' really provide to end users?
Click to expand...

Well, I got my htc hero repaired from the service center even though I had a custom rom installed. I doubt most people in the service centers even know what a custom rom is :P
 
Boot_Comp said:
So then the openness doesnt really reduce the price of the phones for consumers.

And as all phone manufacturers void the phone warranty if you root it or load custom ROM's what tangible benefit does an 'open OS' really provide to end users?
Click to expand...

See there are many ways an open OS benefits the consumers.

1. You get a lot of features and fixes that might not have been possible if done by a single company.

2. An Open OS generally tends to be more secure as it does not rely on security by obscurity.

2. You get a lot of different form factors for your devices and not a one-size-fits-all things.

3. You get it a lot of different price points. e.g. someone wanting to buy iPhone/WP7 would have to shell out atleast 25k upwards but with Android, you can even get it in sub-10k

4. You might not see the cost benefit being passed to you directly right now in terms of reduced prices but then OEMs can spend the same saved money towards providing other value adds. e.g. HTC is now providing the new sense functionality for tracking/wiping etc for free while iPhone charges you for that.

5. Also, you have the option of getting latest updates for your age old devices through custom firmware. e.g. iOS4 works only on iPhone 3G onwards and even on 3G, it crawls. On the other hand, in the android camp, many developers have ported even the latest builds of Froyo to the very first android phone, i.e., G1.
 
Well, from what I've read on the Android developer community, it seems that Google very rarely accepts submissions from the community and instead relies only on their engineers.

Anyhow from a consumer perspective, when you go around marketing a phone as using an "open" OS, what that is supposed to mean is that the device I buy is 'open' to allow me to modify it as I please. However sadly this is not the case. Doing this voids your warranty.

And moreover Android phones are now coming out with encrypted boot-loaders, as the manufacturers want to lock-down the unsigned ROMs/updates that are being used on their phones. So the community developments are of no use here instead the openness seems to be for the manufacturing community.
 
Only Motorola phones have been locked down. But you can still Root it.

You can also Modify your phone, and if you need to replace it they will replace it as long as they don't know that its been rooted.

Also, there is a reason they lock down the bootloader and stuff.

See this scenario :

A noob wants to mess around with his phone without doing proper research. But he ends up bricking his phone. He runs to the manufacturer for a replacement. Who looses money? The manufacturer, needlessly. So that's why they take measures to lock the bootloader (and state that warranty is void). But except the Droid 2 and Droid X, all other phones have good ROM's out for them. I don't expect it to change.

And honestly, you can't blame them for voiding the warranty. They make the phones for general users, us advanced users who hack their phones to death are going beyond the tested limits, that's why we screw up the phone. Its like doing modifications to your electronics and expecting them to replace it when you screw up.
 
Well I don't think they wouldn't end up bricking the phone in the first place if the manufacturer made known the right way to do it or kept it actually open.

Also why would the manufacturer lose money? Consumers always pay for spares when damaged parts need to be replaced anyway. In fact coming to think of it they would actually make money.

What I think this actually is, is a <sarcasm> 'clever' </sarcasm> way they (especially Google) have found to exploit the "open source" movement to further profits for corporations.
 
^^ dude, you are not understanding the concept of open here. The "phone" is not open. The "OS" is. Anyone is free to take Android and put it onto anything they want. The manufacturers are also the "consumers" here of the open OS.

And probably you don't know how warranty stuff works in other countries. It's just that India gets shitty customer service but in most other countries, especially US, it is a big pain for the manufacturers. They have to accept so many returns, most of the times on no questions asked terms. They are not promising an open phone to you so why are you expecting to get one?

If you want an open phone, Google ACTUALLY SELLS OPEN PHONES..Ever heard of "dev phones"? You can buy a developer phone from google (earlier it was G1, now Nexus one) and they will allow you to do anything you want with the phone. Flash anything, root anything, no questions asked...

If you don't want to go with google, there are lots of other folks selling so many kits with android to do anything you want. There is even another open phone project brewing up ( Tim Riker's Saygus Vphone Shown Off at the Big Android BBQ | AndroidGuys )
 
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