Audio Questions on setting up hi-fidelity audio

E

ev1l_n0_0b13

Disciple
Hello again, TE!

I recently posted this thread:

http://www.techenclave.com/pc-peripherals/questions-setting-up-hi-fidelity-136662/

...and was told by a mod to move the audio part of my post to this forum. Should've thought of that earlier. :sleep:

I have a few questions about setting up a good surround sound system in my room, connected to my PC.

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I did some googling of my own, I tried reading up on analog and digital audio, the benefits (or rather non-benefits) of using lossless compression, lots of theory about digital audio, read audiophile fanboy flame war threads where people argued about how Beats and Bose are shit and some company I've never heard of is actually THE shit - and now my head is starting to hurt. I'll just write down my usage, and what I need / the kind of setup I would like to have, along with any questions I have; please recommend the best course of action.

1. I alternate between using speakers and headphones/earphones, depending on the time and mood - for FPS gaming, which needs good sound hardware and speaker positioning to spot enemies, etc., music (metal and trance at the moment, but I want to expand my horizons and try listening to other genres I've been curious about for a while now, like European classical music, and other kinds of music from around the world - who knows what I may come across later), and all kinds of movies. I have also been trying to learn to play the guitar at my own slow, pondering pace for a long while now; I have an acoustic (with generic pickup) at the moment, and may move on to electric guitars at some point down the line; IF I really get into it - and would like to hook it up to the whole setup so I can record stuff for my own amusement/improvement. So the range of sounds that the speakers I eventually get would have to reproduce is quite wide, I imagine. Sound quality has become quite important to me after sampling what a good sound setup can sound like; I even got flac rips of songs but they sound worse on my current speakers than their lower-bitrate mp3 counterparts!

2. I'd like to figure out how to get different audio outs to play different streams from different programs. For example, if you want to play something from Youtube via Chrome on your speakers, and want to output a second stream from Winamp to a wireless headset, and have independent volume controls for each stream, how do you go about it? What do you need? I tried but it doesn't work on the current config.

3. What's the actual difference between 5.1 and 7.1 speakers, or home theaters? I know the latter have 2 extra speakers, but what else am I missing? Is 7.1 actually worth the increased price? It'd be great if someone who has owned both could tell us about the differences they noticed...

4. I am only looking for a setup that will a) be trouble-free for a number of years b) preferably has physical controls for bass and treble/tone control, just because I've gotten used to having them around (it's ok if there is some other alternative for making quick changes, like a remote) c) fulfill points 1 and 2 above about sound quality & discrete I/O's.

I have an optical S/PDIF out on my motherboard. Will the onboard audio and digital speakers suffice to achieve quality sound, or should I get a sound card? Will it fit on my motherboard? Again, is that worth the extra money for my needs? And I read about DAC's but didn't understand where it fits in; speakers have them inbuilt, so are discrete ones better? What if you get a discrete one and the speakers' DAC interferes or reduces quality? The point is, the picture I have in my head of how it all fits together (onboard sound/sound card/different outs/DAC's, standalone digital speakers or home theaters) is incomplete. It'd be nice if someone could add the missing lines for me, I'll color it in. :)

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And my budget is ideally not more than 20k.
 
20k only for speakers or what??

1. Your this point consist of 2 usage - One is Gaming/Movies and the other one is Music. Now you have to priorities your basic need in this like More movies/gaming or Music?

2. This is not possible AFAIK, may be other guys can help you in this if any such thing exist.

3. In 5.1 - There are 2 front channel speakers, 1 center channel speaker & at last 2 Rear Channel Speakers but in 7.1 channel - Everything remains the same as 5.1 in this except there are 2 more speakers introduced in this as "Left Rear Surround" and "Right Rear Surround". - These set-up are good for Movies/Games but useless for Music.

4. Sound Card is always recommended to reveal the true performance of speaker system. Now will it fit on your motherboard or not, how can one know until he knows that what motherboard you have. Does it have PCI or PCIe slot, obviously all the motherboard these days have these slots so it definitely will fit on your motherboard. It definitely worth spending on the soundcard. Discrete ones are always better.

DAC's in speakers will always work if you feed digital signals to the speakers.


You are a very confused guy :bleh:
 
Whoops! I should've copied my config from that thread, too. Sorry, I didn't have perfect control of my senses or thoughts at the time. But you could've just clicked that link to the original thread, to see the text below! :p

My config is:

Core i5 2500k
Corsair Vengeance 1600 MHz RAM - 2 x 4GB
Asus Maximus IV GENE-Z Motherboard
Cooler Master Silent Pro M600 PSU
Seagate Momentus XT 250 GB HDD
Cooler Master Elite 431 Plus Mid Tower

I don't have a graphics card at the moment; I'm using the onboard HD 3000 Intel graphics - which is surprisingly good - for the time being. I will get an Nvidia GTX 680 in a few months. I'm using Altec Lansing BXR1121 speakers and a friend's old 19 inch Samsung monitor, both of which I will replace, maybe before getting the graphics card.
Click to expand...


And like I commented on that thread some time ago, if I'm able to get a UPS that serves my needs for around 10k instead of 20, I'll use the remaining money for the speakers, bringing my total audio budget to 30k. And if that's not enough, I don't mind saving up for one or two months and adding 10k more. I don't want to wait more than that, so the bottom line is, the audio budget is from 30k-40k at the most.

Edit:
I play games, watch music, and movies equally. My speakers are in use most of the time for any of these reasons.

So are 7.1's better for gaming than 5.1? Most games don't have support for more than 5.1 channels do they?

The motherboard link is in this post. And it most probably SHOULD fit. Can you suggest a few good cards that will suffice for my needs so I could read their reviews? I remember reading about the Asus Xonar that you apparently own, in the course of my googling for answers. How much difference would you say it makes to your setup, and how useful is it exactly? What things, specifically, can you do with it that you can't with your onboard audio?

I didn't understand what you said about the DAC's. And yeah, I am. :)
 
40k-45k is reasonable enough for a entry-level 2-channel system, or a entry level surround system. Drop down to 30k and you can only get a HTiB solution, or a very basic 2-channel system. At our original 20k like I said, you are in PC audio territory, not high fidelity any more.

Guitars sound terrible on home audio speakers. Even a Rs. 2500 Stranger Cube 20 amp will sound better than a 1L system playing directly from a guitar pickup. If you have an amp simulator you can get away with it, otherwise you might want to junk that goal.

For surround systems my choice would be the Boston Acoustics Soundware XS (23-25k) with a cheap receiver (15-18k), should tide you over. It will work fine off the optical input off your PC, and do great at gaming and some movie watching. It's not so hot for music though. For a little more you can put together a system with the JBL Control 1 and a small receiver, adding speakers for better expandibility.

For stereo I would look at the KEF Q300 (28-29k) with a nice amp - you can choose from Marantz, Denon and NAD entry level offerings. If you can sacrifice some bass, the Q100 will save you a bit of money. There are also some nice studio monitors at those prices if that floats your boat - m-Audio BX8 and some of the Behringer offerings. Genelec has the 8010 at the upper end of your budget, but those are very small driver-wise. Still worth checking out.

Almost every software program allows you to slave itself to a given sound output. You have to go into the software control interface and set the output to the one you need. It is possible to do this if you have different sound devices installed. On a single card, you will get only one stream. Windows 7 exposes the front panel audio as an independent output if your motherboard supports it.

to your question of 7.1 and 5.1, they are marketing gimmcks. Two great speakers will always sound better than 6 or 8 crappy ones.

Lastly, DAC is a much-abused term. A DAC in the context of home audio is a discrete unit in a box that takes a digital input from a second discrete device and converts it into analog audio, the stuff we can actually hear after it's amplified. Look at some Wikipedia links.

At your budget, a surround system will not need a DAC (not enough quality downstream). Your stereo system will.

You are a very confused guy
bleh.gif
Click to expand...

I concur.
 
I've done some reading in the past few days, and come to some conclusions. Got a few new questions, too.

1. I've decided to drop the idea of recording myself play the guitar, for now. Like you said there are better options.

2. I've realized from reading stuff like this - that it's better to spend more on a 2.1 than the same amount on an entry-level surround system. And that my budget will need to be increased - so I'll save up for (and find) a good setup later, and use the Altec Lansing bxr1121 speakers for the time being. Thanks for the suggestions though, they were very informative! I'll use this thread again when I get speakers. :)

3. My priorities are:
1) Getting SOMETHING that will let me listen to hi-fi audio from my PC TODAY, for 20k INR. I can always save up and keep adding on to the setup later. (Okay maybe 30k next month but I'M IMPATIENT!!)
2) Making sure everything I get will last 2 years AT LEAST.

Which option is the best?

Option 1.
a) Get a DAC, connect it to the PC directly, either via USB or S/PDIF optical out, without a sound card
b) Get a pair of hi-fi headphones (Stereo / Surround / Stereo with simulated surround...?) & use it directly with the DAC / amp.

Option 2.
Get a sound card and hi-fi headphones now, without an amp / discrete DAC. (A sound card IS an onboard DAC, right? Or is it better to get a discrete amp / DAC? But then what's the purpose of getting a sound card? Lost again...)

Whichever option it is, please suggest at least a few brand names per component - headphones, DAC, sound card - so I can read up on them! :)
 
You seem to be sitting on a pile of money and you seem to have that itch to spend. I sir, am from the kanjoos audiophile tribe. I believe that audio nirvana for you is far, FAR cheaper than you think it is. If you are looking for a high from buying a ton of expensive equipment, please be my guest. But If you choose the red pill, you'll find that the truth is much simpler.

Let me break down your questions.

What sort of speakers do you need to buy?
You plan to listen to music mostly, and a few games right?
get yourself a pair of good IEM's. What sort of earphones do you have? even entry level IEM's can blow away fancy headphones or speakers. I think 1K is a good price point, and no need to spend more than 2k for IEM's. Unless you know what you're looking for spending more than 2k on IEM's does not make sense. If you're looking for headphones, try the JVC HA RX 700 or 900. I'd seen a pair on classifieds going for as low as 2200.

I agree that your BXR1121's need to go, but buying speakers is an entirely different thread, and we'll deal with that once we get there. In the meantime, listen to your IEM's and headphones, and decide on what sort of tonality you want for your speakers. what do you want, slam or extension? warm or bright? laid back or forward?

Do you need a DAC or a soundcard ?
you have a Analog Devices ADI 2000B(1988B) codec on your motherboard which is among the better ones you can get. Remove all the fluff from your audio chain - disable all the effects, everything, Install foobar, ssrc or another good resampler, Kernel streaming or asio as available
I had written a basic guide to it an eternity ago
http://www.techenclave.com/guides-tutorials/improve-your-music-playback-20019/
most of it is outdated, but the principle remains - get the cleanest path to your output. you'll have to hunt for the plugins yourself.

And last, a word of caution. The path to high fidelity is paved with good intentions, but one day you'll feel that you're listening to the recording, and not the music any more. One day I felt that enough was enough, and no more rebecca pidgeon, and swore that if anyone made me listen to spanish harlem once more, I'd GTFO. While some may argue that I'd never seen the depths of what good audio - which is true to an extent - I've not spent more than 1L in audio equipment, and around half of that was in my car, nor do I have golden ears - there are people here who can hear the difference between a lossless flac and a wav - I can barely hear the difference between 320Kbps and 256.

For me, even though there was always something better, good enough is good enough, and more than half the music i love was from the 60's and recorded on much older equipment, and having them being surgically dissected on a hi fidelity system? Nah! -Even on a good recording, When you listen to Eric Clapton's unplugged version of "Running on Faith", do you want to be thinking about all your lost loves, and that forlorn hope, or how realistic that slide guitar sounds?

Me? I just wanted to feel and enjoy the music.
</rant>:p
Further edit: Sp^wn you lazy bum! I should have known when you said BXR1121. Call me bugger :bleh:!
 
^^^ truly sensible and very practical advice.
I also had the itch and kept on spending and spending, dumping earphones, amps and players one after the other to get the ultimate experience.
spend hours trying to identify the best combination of equipment and at one point i realized i was tying to pick up the smallest possible sound or the hiss instead of enjoying the music and life has been much better after that.
 
3. My priorities are:
1) Getting SOMETHING that will let me listen to hi-fi audio from my PC TODAY, for 20k INR. I can always save up and keep adding on to the setup later. (Okay maybe 30k next month but I'M IMPATIENT!!)
2) Making sure everything I get will last 2 years AT LEAST.

Which option is the best?

Option 1.
a) Get a DAC, connect it to the PC directly, either via USB or S/PDIF optical out, without a sound card
b) Get a pair of hi-fi headphones (Stereo / Surround / Stereo with simulated surround...?) & use it directly with the DAC / amp.

Option 2.
Get a sound card and hi-fi headphones now, without an amp / discrete DAC. (A sound card IS an onboard DAC, right? Or is it better to get a discrete amp / DAC? But then what's the purpose of getting a sound card? Lost again...)

Whichever option it is, please suggest at least a few brand names per component - headphones, DAC, sound card - so I can read up on them!
happy19.gif
Click to expand...


What's the room size , placement of speakers you prefer - Stands or Bookshelfs/PC Desk-Table and how far do you intend to listen music ( feet / meter or even bloody inches will do it :head2:)?

For Trance and EDM music the woofer size and speaker sensitivity counts a lot as small sized driver will play around with air in less volume than bigger sized drivers similarly a high SPL speaker with small efficient driver will sound good than speakers with big size drivers.But at your budget you don't need to think about much as it should be path of actually.


PC based audio you need following :
Soundcard / DAC
Amplifier
Speakers / Headphones

At 20K Rs Budget , i would rather go with following chain in.

1. PC ( Soundcard Asus Dx 5K Rs ) --> Tripath T2020 Amplifier( Helder's DIY kit 4-5K Rs ) --> Cambridge Audio S30 ( 10K Rs )
S30 has little less bass as compared to others in same price range.

Or
2. PC ( No soundcard ) -- > USB DAC ( DIY kit based on PCM 2704 , 6Krs ) --> Tripath T2020 Amplifier ( DIY kit 4-5 K Rs) --> Swans Wharf's Diamond 9.1 ( 16 Krs )/Sonodyne 1501 ( ~ 11 K Rs )
Bass is better than S30 / Sonodyne produces more punchy and tight bass.

Or
3. PC ( Asus STX card 7.5K Rs ) --> Norge 2060 Amplifier ( 9K Rs )/ -->Sonodyne 1501 / MS Aviano 2( 18-19 K Rs)

Or
4. PC ( Asus STX ) --> Swans 1080 ( 10K Rs ) or Swans 200mkii ( 16K Rs )
Yes you just need PC and speakers as both are powered speakers( Active speakers ) not even soundcard is needed (though i prefer soundcard )

Option 1 is best for you as it falls well in your budget and you can atleast hear things that you might have been missing out ...Option 2 is kind off experiment and Option 3 is for bigger budget and proper solid state AMP( Indian made :) ).
Option 4 is Active setup ,for those who don't like plugging wires in/out.



Note :Tripath T2020 Amps needs speakers with at least 87db+ sensitivity though 91db+ is recommended and can be had from ebay.uk/ USB DAC kits can also be obtained from ebay.uk

First Rule- Listen to different speakers if possible with different Amp's.Indian brands will cost less and are VFM when compared to international brands while building music system on shoe string budget or being in " Trying Out Zone ".
Second Rule - DIY Kits can kick some serious air out of branded ones when assembled/made properly keeping each parameters evenly matched with others.So if you have patience then DIY way is better and cheapest.Better get a catch of some one experienced DIY'er and pay him for his service.
 
the OP is dangerously close to buying a set of ATH M50's. I'm out of reasons why its a bad idea. Anyone got anything to contribute? (which does not involve spending MORE money - like saying he'll need a better DAC or amp)
 
@dreamCatcher

TDA7498 is good chip...but SHURE boards needs some modification of Caps for full efficiency( by that i mean full capacity of delivering continuous 100 W or close to that ) specially output filters as they need some serious modifications( read upgrade ).Good caps of 2.2~2.4 uF will do the job in series ....but then price will rise which makes this board less attractive.
This AMP board doesn't have Volume control so you need to think about it.

Don't know about power supply but i guess you must be thinking to use laptop power supplies...as per spec sheet but i think you need a good one for this.

Go for proven TK2050 based design if not then try this one and let us know how it feels with or without changes.
Check " diyaudio.com " for more about this board...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
jhononweed said:
dreamCatcher

TDA7498 is good chip...but SHURE boards needs some modification of Caps for full efficiency( by that i mean full capacity of delivering continuous 100 W or close to that ) specially output filters as they need some serious modifications( read upgrade ).Good caps of 2.2~2.4 uF will do the job in series ....but then price will rise which makes this board less attractive.
This AMP board doesn't have Volume control so you need to think about it.

Don't know about power supply but i guess you must be thinking to use laptop power supplies...as per spec sheet but i think you need a good one for this.

Go for proven TK2050 based design if not then try this one and let us know how it feels with or without changes.
Check " diyaudio.com " for more about this board...
Click to expand...

jhononweed

Yes I agree the board is not complete and requires a separate volume control module and few other improvements and modifications. I was thinking of a 24v internal PSU, not the ones used for laptops. I also came across a board which used TK2050 chips in bridged mode to achieve 100 W per channel, don't remember the make or model, but had a couple of good reviews. TK2050 amps are one of the best that Tripath ever produced, would you agree?

I don't want to hijack this thread, but while you are here, do you recommend a single board like the one above for a 5.1 DIY, or is it better to go with five modules of 1 x 100 watt TK2050 based custom solution. I really hate those bulky receivers and want to have a small 10" x 10" amp to run speakers like Monitor Audio BX2 (5 channel + sub) or W Diamond 10.2 . I know the sound signature of both these speakers are different, but just giving you an idea. And this will not be used in a home theater kind of a setup or anything, it is just for the PC.
 
It depends on how the sound signature that shure board will produce with its original / replaced caps.As i said earlier it needs some major capacitor job along with custom made volume control or pre-amp though computer based volume control can be had only if you happen to use HTPC which is again bulky matter or foobar DSP which changes matter to stereo output rather than AVR....
So here it comes on following :

Shure TDA7498 + two 2.4uF or even higher caps each in series for output filter + Volume control / Pre-Amp + Power Supply = Jacked up Total adventure cost( You can get decent enough AVR with that kind of money )

Adding Volume or Pre-Amp will again be bulky so i would rather take TA2050 in bridge mode.

And this will not be used in a home theater kind of a setup or anything, it is just for the PC.
Click to expand...
5.1 PC setup or Stereo set up from PC ?...if later then Shure board is utter useless and pricey.

I am no expert on AVR or Stereo set ups but can say this :
To get proper soundstage in 5.1 setup, neither of BX2 or Diamonds will provide any form of uniqueness with this shure board and best Stereo setup consists not more than 2 speakers in pair be it FS / BS or TL.

So choose what you want in your sound set up rather than going for cosmetic appearance.

Feel free to PM me for more.
 
Will the CA S30 perform adequately directly from the uDAC without an amp? I don't listen at a high volume but am curious about the musical forward midrange sound they are supposed to have. I won't have enough budget after getting them(for 10k off flipkart :() to get an amp as well. I'd recently bought an Circle Arko 80W which is good but sounds a bit too bright for my taste and so was thinking of going for something better. Will the S30 be enough of an upgrade over the sound of the Arko?
 
greenhorn said:
nope :p
you most definitely need an amp
Click to expand...

+1

The output power of the uDac will be in terms of few hundred milli-watts (Thousandth of a watt), while your typical speaker will require 10's of watts. Hooking up the uDac directly to speakers would likely burn out the uDac's internal amp (meant for HP/IEMs).
 
it works fine with the arko/mx5021 speakers with the knob set the same as my ath-t500 headphones... does the s30 need so much power? i don't understand this stuff :ashamed: i'm guessing there is no volume control on the s30; i.e no internal amp and hence it won't work properly?
 
chiron said:
Will the CA S30 perform adequately directly from the uDAC without an amp? I don't listen at a high volume but am curious about the musical forward midrange sound they are supposed to have. I won't have enough budget after getting them(for 10k off flipkart :() to get an amp as well. I'd recently bought an Circle Arko 80W which is good but sounds a bit too bright for my taste and so was thinking of going for something better. Will the S30 be enough of an upgrade over the sound of the Arko?
Click to expand...

Pair it with Tripath TA2020 based AMP( 50-70 $ max from ebay.com) and hear S30 go lively.
Topping TP20 Mark2 Class T Amp TA2020 25W Amplifier | eBay

Chances of baking uDAC is almost 100% if you use it with S30.

If you haven't purchased S30 then better look at Swans active speakers...or try pairing Arko speakers with DAC or AMP's.
 
chiron said:
it works fine with the arko/mx5021 speakers with the knob set the same as my ath-t500 headphones... does the s30 need so much power?
Click to expand...
As mentioned earlier, the uDac's output power is very low, in terms of 100's of milli-watts. This is sufficient to drive headphones, but woefully inadequate for speakers. Your Arko/MX speakers are powered, ie, they have an internal amp that amplifies this low power into the 10's (or 100's) of watts that they require. Most speakers meant for use with computers are powered (they have an internal amp)

chiron said:
i don't understand this stuff :ashamed: i'm guessing there is no volume control on the s30; i.e no internal amp and hence it won't work properly?
Click to expand...
You've nailed that correctly. The S30's are passive speakers, ie they don't have an internal amp. You'll have to feed your speakers from an external amp, which is in turn fed by the uDAC. The chain should be like

Computer -> uDAC -> Amp -> Speakers

Most 'audiophile' speakers are passive (no internal amp) since this allows the owner to upgrade amplifiers & speakers separately, as per his convenience. Most 'computer' speakers are powered (they have internal amp) since this is more convenient to user as he needs to buy only one package.

As jhonweed mentions, the TP20 is known to pair well with the S30, and its very affordable (ie, compared to the usual 'audiophile' amps). You should check the thread on HFV regarding the TP20 amp.
 
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