Router help EDIT: Got Asus RT-N13U

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Can you clarify what the router-repeater link speed would be like?

If we place the repeater where the base stations signal is halved.

For g the link speed on the repeater would be 27Mbs
For N150 its 32Mbs
For N300 its 64Mbs

Halve those again past the repeater.

13, 16 & 32Mbs

What throughput do you expect with those link speeds ?

The signal strength the repeater gets from the router is what matters. Her signal to the repeater does not.

bear in mind i'm not advocating placing the repeater where the router signal is halved more like where its one third. The signal at the client will be weaker but the throughput will be higher. half is easier for illustrative purposes.

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

If we place the repeater where the base stations signal is halved.
For N300 its 64Mbs

Halve those again past the repeater.
32Mbs

What throughput do you expect with those link speeds ?

Why not ~30Mbps? I'm not sure why the router-repeater link at 64Mbps would only be capable of 6Mbps (even taking into account the theoretical 'halving' since its repeating). Collisions shouldn't be a problem with so few clients, and hopefully his network channel isn't noisy.

bear in mind i'm not advocating placing the repeater where the router signal is halved more like where its one third. The signal at the client will be weaker but the throughput will be higher. half is easier for illustrative purposes.

I didn't understand this. Is it so the wireless clients don't see the other router and thereby keep the channel clearer?

 

[toxicdrift]

soo what do i get ?

 

[blr_p]

Why not ~30Mbps? I'm not sure why the router-repeater link at 64Mbps would only be capable of 6Mbps (even taking into account the theoretical 'halving' since its repeating). Collisions shouldn't be a problem with so few clients, and hopefully his network channel isn't noisy.

Because the repeater is placed at some distance from the router, naturally there will be a drop in speed at the repeater. It then has to repeat that signal thereby halving it.

link speed is what the device tells you it connected at. Throughput is what speed you can expect. The low figure is throughput.

I didn't understand this. Is it so the wireless clients don't see the other router and thereby keep the channel clearer?

Client gets whatever speed the repeater can give it. If repeater sees a weak signal then client gets half that speed.

Lets say he places the repeater in his sisters room. The laptop cannot see the router but it can see the repeater. But the repeater is getting a very weak signal, it then halves it. This will result in an even slower signal at the laptop.

3 walls at 40 feet

router (1)|.............. (repeater)(2)|................. (3) | client

1 wall between router-repeater, 2 walls between repeater-client

Lets say N300 client @ 20Mhz

Router puts out 150Mbs, Repeater links at 100-120Mbs, repeats @ 50-60Mbs, client is expected to link at ~30Mbs

What is the expected throughput at the client ?


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soo what do i get ?

Those rj-11 jacks in both your rooms, are these seperate phone lines or an extension.

 

[toxicdrift]

they r seperate but i can manage to hook them as a extention i think.

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

3 walls at 40 feet

router (1)|.............. (repeater)(2)|................. (3) | client

Router puts out 150Mbs, Repeater links at 100-120Mbs, repeats @ 50-60Mbs, client is expected to link at ~30Mbs

What is the expected throughput at the client ?

The 50-60Mbps halving assumption for repeating speed is based on both router-repeater and repeater-client links having the same speed, i.e. 100-120Mbps. Technically in your case the repeater is "repeating" at ~30Mbps. Not optimal, but probably frees up more air time for router 1 and its clients. Makes more sense re-positioning the repeater - perhaps after wall 2 - where it links to the router at the same speed the client links to repeater. Assuming you can get "repeating" speed up to 40Mbps, then 8Mbps actual throughput should be easy.

I think the bigger question is what is actual throughput efficiency vs link speeds?
I've seen a simple Linksys USB G stick connected to a WL520GU router about 20 feet away through 1 wall easily max out an 8Mbps internet connection, so its surprising that an n router would struggle for throughput efficiency. Even bottle says his 450Mbps link delivers about 160Mbps actual throughput, so even 1/3rd of 40Mbps should be nearly double your 6Mbps estimate.

 

[toxicdrift]

im planning to order this one - http://www.snapdeal.com/product/tplink-300mbps-wireless-n-range/640529?pos=7;45

and get a tp link 4300 n router for the room.. u guys think it should be fine?


and my wl520gu couldnt reach her room. .. i sold it / also if i do a parallel connection of the rj11 jacks, to her room? how does it work? ive called my local phone guy, see if it can be done

 

[blr_p]

The 50-60Mbps halving assumption for repeating speed is based on both router-repeater and repeater-client links having the same speed, i.e. 100-120Mbps.

Its based on what the repeater links at and then halves.

Makes more sense re-positioning the repeater - perhaps after wall 2 - where it links to the router at the same speed the client links to repeater. Assuming you can get "repeating" speed up to 40Mbps, then 8Mbps actual throughput should be easy.

No not after wall 2, repeater must be closer to the router than client for client to get the best speed. client may get a weaker signal but will be able to do more with it.

I think the bigger question is what is actual throughput efficiency vs link speeds?

I've seen a simple Linksys USB G stick connected to a WL520GU router about 20 feet away through 1 wall easily max out an 8Mbps internet connection, so its surprising that an n router would struggle for throughput efficiency. Even bottle says his 450Mbps link delivers about 160Mbps actual throughput, so even 1/3rd of 40Mbps should be nearly double your 6Mbps estimate.

Yes, I get similar through two walls at 20 feet. link speed of 65Mbs, throughput of 15-20Mbs. The client indicates 3/4-4/4 bars strength even at that distance and is a N150.

It would seem that taking 80-90% off the link speed for throughput is excessive, 2/3 is closer.

So once again....

3 walls at 40 feet

router (1)|.............. (repeater)(2)|................. (3) | client

1 wall between router-repeater, 2 walls between repeater-client

Lets say N300 client @ 20Mhz

Router puts out 150Mbs, Repeater links at 120-150Mbs, repeats @ 60-75Mbs, client is expected to link at ~45-60Mbs, giving a throughput at the destination of 12-20Mbs

key poiint here is it assumes the client is a N300, if its not then the starting speed will not be 150 Mbs but 65-72Mbs and the destination will receive 6-10Mbs.

So we need to confirm whether the dell is a N150 or N300.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-find-unknown-device-drivers-by-their-vendor-device-id/

@toxicdrift
What is vendor id & device instance id of the wifi card in the dell ?

 

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im planning to order this one - http://www.snapdeal.com/product/tplink-300mbps-wireless-n-range/640529?pos=7;45

and get a tp link 4300 n router for the room.. u guys think it should be fine?

No its not fine, the N13 will give you better range than the 4300.

The tp-link wdr3500 uses the same 2.4Ghz radio as the wdr4300. The 3rd antenna on the 4300 is receive only so if there is lots of uploading it will be better but your sister will be mainly downloading.

Why are you even considering a dual band router ? Do you have any 5Ghz clients

and my wl520gu couldnt reach her room. .. i sold it / also if i do a parallel connection of the rj11 jacks, to her room? how does it work? ive called my local phone guy, see if it can be done

I explored this avenue and its a dead end. If the question was asked 10 years ago there were solutions like this netgear or cisco. What they do is create a gateway with which you then connect other computers to the rj-11 jack and they are identified but they only promise 10Mbs or 10BASE-T which might be lower in practice. Wifi has killed these phoneline products. HomePNA 3.1 came out in 2006 but there are very few products out there using phoneline (coax is preferred) that are available let alone reviewed.

If you get your local phone guy to do it then this is the headache you will have to deal with.

Your choice atm is either powerline or 2xN13s. Pending your reply about whether your dell laptop is a N150 or n300.

Another idea and this is a very long shot, is whether your ISP will allow you to share the same account on two different telephone numberse. Conceivably this should not be too difficult to do on their backend, whether they would be willing is another question.

Presumably you & your sister are using two accounts presently ? Hence the main purpose of your thread to consolidate on one account and share out to her.

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

Its based on what the repeater links at and then halves.

Sorry but your idea of repeating is incorrect. Please think over it since the concept is very simple

1. Its not possible to 'repeat' at 65Mbps if your client is bottlenecking it with a 30Mbps link.
2. You are assuming repeating speed 'magically' halves. It doesn't. Its just a rough estimate we make. The reason we assume repeating speed roughly halves is based on the repeater spending half the air time receiving and half the time transmitting - but this is only possible if both the links are at the same speeds. If one of the link speeds i.e. Client goes down, it spends more air time with that slower link which leaves less air time for the faster link slowing it down too. Get it?

 

[toxicdrift]

its a pci\ven_8086&dev_4232&subsys_13218086 Device description is Intel(R) WiFi Link 5100 AGN and N Mode is enabled lol though i dont have a n router yet. . and no i cancelled the other connection a few months back.. so i dont think the rj11 bit will work.. i guess its two n13s then? no point getting the 4300 if its no good i dont have any dual band devices.. but i thought it would be more futureproof .. i guess n routers should be fine.. what do u guys suggest ??

 

[blr_p]

2. You are assuming repeating speed 'magically' halves. It doesn't. Its just a rough estimate we make. The reason we assume repeating speed roughly halves is based on the repeater spending half the air time receiving and half the time transmitting - but this is only possible if both the links are at the same speeds. If one of the link speeds i.e. Client goes down, it spends more air time with that slower link which leaves less air time for the faster link slowing it down too. Get it?

So you're advocating equal distance for router-repeater and repeater-client ?

Only in this way will repeating actually be halved.

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

^ Equal link speeds, not distances.

 

[toxicdrift]

lol i hope both u guys figured all your queries and confusions now if u could only help me with minee please?

 

[blr_p]

^ Equal link speeds, not distances.

I say link speed router-repeater is more important than repeater-client in terms of throughput on the client. There was a good article on SNB that explained this subtle point but i cannot locate it.

If he gets his routers we will do a little test and see...

lol i hope both u guys figured all your queries and confusions now if u could only help me with minee please?

Your 'old dell' laptop happens to have a dual band N300 wifi card in it.

Are you interested in being a pioneer ?

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

lol i hope both u guys figured all your queries and confusions now if u could only help me with minee please?

Hehe sorry

its a pci\ven_8086&dev_4232&subsys_13218086 Device description is Intel(R) WiFi Link 5100 AGN

i guess its two n13s then? no point getting the 4300 if its no good i dont have any dual band devices.. but i thought it would be more futureproof .. i guess n routers should be fine.. what do u guys suggest ??

Yeah I have the 5100 AGN too. Its N300.

5GHz doesn't travel too far. What most people do is set up the 5GHz band for the clients operating on router 1, and setting 2.4GHz for the repeater. But in your case since you don't have any 5GHz devices, it wont help. Might as well pick up the N13U if it has better 2.4GHz performance than the TP-Link.

I say link speed router-repeater is more important than repeater-client in terms of throughput on the client. There was a good article on SNB that explained this subtle point but i cannot locate it.

I say they're both equally important and you need to balance it. Its so obvious! What good is high throughput on the router-repeater link if it can't feed the client equally fast? As I said the only thing I can think of is it freeing up airtime for the first router's clients. But whats the point if only the Internet is being shared?

 

[toxicdrift]

ok guys thanks , i picked up two n13u .. hopefully these should sort it out. now the wait for flipkart to deliver

 

[blr_p]

I say they're both equally important and you need to balance it. Its so obvious!

That's the point its not obvious.

What good is high throughput on the router-repeater link if it can't feed the client equally fast? As I said the only thing I can think of is it freeing up airtime for the first router's clients. But whats the point if only the Internet is being shared?

You asked what was the relation between link speed & throughput, well once you throw in a repeater it works as a function of the speed the repeater gets. And that is determined by where the repeater is located.

As i mentioned earlier, repeater next to the client, great link speed lousy throughput. repeater closer to the router, lower link speed higher throughput at the client. A weaker signal can give more throughput that's the non-obvious bit. If the focus is on getting max throughput all a repeater does is extend range by 50%, beyond that throughput drops, but you get range.

Lets see what the test will reveal, though i figure once he gets it working we won't be able to get an answer on this.

 

[Crazy_Eddy]

You asked what was the relation between link speed & throughput, well once you throw in a repeater it works as a function of the speed the repeater gets. And that is determined by where the repeater is located.

As i mentioned earlier, repeater next to the client, great link speed lousy throughput. repeater closer to the router, lower link speed higher throughput at the client. A weaker signal can give more throughput that's the non-obvious bit. If the focus is on getting max throughput all a repeater does is extend range by 50%, beyond that throughput drops, but you get range.

You must be joking
We've assumed that throughput is roughly 1/3rd of the (actual) link speed. Are you telling me a client at a lower 30Mbps link speed will sustain the throughput of a repeater at a higher 100Mbps link?

 

[blr_p]

Are you telling me a client at a lower 30Mbps link speed will sustain the throughput of a repeater at a higher 100Mbps link?

if the repeater links at 100mbs, it repeats at 50Mbs.

Now if the client only has a link speed of 30mbs to the repeater, it will have a higher throughput than...

If the repeater linked at say 50Mbs, and repeated at 25Mbs. Thats what i'm trying to say.

You mentioned client is bottlenecking the repeater, client is not the bottleneck, the bottleneck is how good a signal the repeater gets to pass on to the client. Additionally, these are all n clients, if there were any g or b clients in here they would be bottlenecks regardless of how close they were to the router. As the radio can only talk one protocol at a time. Slower speeds with b or g mean slower speeds for everybody else for the duration of the conversation. So to prevent this the router is setup as 'n only' clients and not mixed mode.

Once a repeater enters the equation the relation between link speed & throughput at the client end is determined by the location of the repeater. This one third calculation will not apply in this case, only a throughput test will suffice. Cannot predict otherwise.

To get the best throughput at the client requires experimenting with repeater positions, closer to router is better and then doing throughput tests.