Suggestions for 2 Split AC's

[laugh]

Normal OG, Toshiba, high end panasonics, and even high end Samsungs and LG, will always cost more, the real question is, how many hours a year do you expect them to run. If its 600-1000 as most contemplate, then a sharp will do, but the moment you start talking 1500+ hours a year, you have to start being more discerning then just the price. Also, Heat pump inverters can be considered if you are in supercold areas and use heaters in winter.

Why do you think Sharp will not perform when we do 1500+ hours a year? Almost all AC's in offices will do those and more. I have OG and love it but I hate overpaying!, at the same time if it's worth it I don't mind paying. Can you elaborate on how OG is superior to say Sharp.

If we compare Civic and Mercedes I can convince anyone with the budget that Mercedes is superior. It's longer, more powerful, more stable, better suspension, better legroom, better headroom,better thigh support, better brakes and what not.

I would also like to point out earlier I had said Inverters operating range is about 10/15 - 125% of their rated capacity. This was disputed by pointing sharp as an example, I have rechecked and the higher end inverters do operate 10/15-125% of rated capacity.

Sharp's operating range

Cooling Capacity Range [BTU/Hr]: (5,460 - 18,000 - 20,500)
Rated Cooling Capacity: 5.27 kW/ 18,000 BTU/Hr
Rated Power Consumption: 1,440 watts

 

[RishiGuru]

laugh, as TheIndian said you can opt for O General air conditioners. Quality is said to be excellent though I have no first hand experience. They are very expensive and their Inverters can do a 46 degree centigrade max just like Sharp.

The Sharp 1.5 Ton Inverter cost INR 41K in Kolkata, where as O General Inverter costs INR 53K. Make your choice. Sharp are true VFM products where you get complete "paisa vasool". Go with Inverters, non-Inverters as per your needs and depending on your budget gun for the brand. Sharp, O General, Panasonic all makes good Inverters.

Best of luck.

 

[TheIndian]

Why do you think Sharp will not perform when we do 1500+ hours a year? Almost all AC's in offices will do those and more. I have OG and love it but I hate overpaying!, at the same time if it's worth it I don't mind paying. Can you elaborate on how OG is superior to say Sharp.

If we compare Civic and Mercedes I can convince anyone with the budget that Mercedes is superior. It's longer, more powerful, more stable, better suspension, better legroom, better headroom,better thigh support, better brakes and what not.



Sharp's operating range

Cooling Capacity Range [BTU/Hr]: (5,460 - 18,000 - 20,500)
Rated Cooling Capacity: 5.27 kW/ 18,000 BTU/Hr
Rated Power Consumption: 1,440 watts

All your arguments of more room etc in a Mercedes will fall flat if you take a similar sized one, it will probably be more cramped, but yet better. More of that later.

True all ACs in an office will do that and more, but will a Sharp be able to do it for 10 years trouble free like the Generals ? That is the million $$ question. I believe you have seen this for yourself personally in the window units. Its all about build quality and operating life hours. I assume you are used to computing we get 120mm fans ranging from 250 to even 2000+ now, what is the main difference? Why the huge price difference, Initially all are silent, no problems what happens are 12 months? the cheap ones get noisy. Another area as you will see, it drops only to 30% of rated, not 10-15%. If you want specifics, you would have to do your own research.

I am not into promoting Ogeneral specifically, my real point is Sharp is not the top of the AC pyramid as is being made out in several threads. Is Sharp a good AC? the answer is yes, is it good VFM? again yes, but is it the best or among the best, not by a long shot. The personal choice is yours to make.

 

[TheIndian]

laugh, as TheIndian said you can opt for O General air conditioners. Quality is said to be excellent though I have no first hand experience. They are very expensive and their Inverters can do a 46 degree centigrade max just like Sharp.

The Sharp 1.5 Ton Inverter cost INR 41K in Kolkata, where as O General Inverter costs INR 53K. Make your choice. Sharp are true VFM products where you get complete "paisa vasool". Go with Inverters, non-Inverters as per your needs and depending on your budget gun for the brand. Sharp, O General, Panasonic all makes good Inverters.

Best of luck.

We have had apple fanbois, android fanbois, AMD and Intel fanbois even, now we have a SHARP one too who tends to snort at anything that is not sharp.

OGenerals operating range ambient is 52c not 46,

 

[cranky]

At a very generalised level, the best way to work out the lowest running cost is to see what the exact heatload in your room is and then the actual cooling capacity.Most AC manufacturers have some version of this calculator on their website, and there are enough free-field resources to help you reach an approximate heatload estimate for your room/s.

There is a *very* big difference between operating power between the two states of the airconditioner - compressor draws about 70% of the power.

Basically, you can achieve power savings by oversizing the airconditioning units to about 1.5x of the actual requirement (or the next higher tonnage), and to be safer 2x. In the long run, the runtime of the compressors will be 2x lower. Star ratings are useless as are the gimmick of 'Inverter' units. Yes, they do have power saving merits but if you actually run the numbers for a 1.5T (5 star, 80% duty cycle) versus 2.5T units (1+1.5T, both 3 star, 40% duty cycle) over a five-year period, the latter usually has a lower TCO but higher initial outlay.

The max saving (and max cost) you ever encounter is with the compressor in the 'ON' position. Simply having it switched off is the best way to save power in a AC unit. Two units have other benefits too such as more even coverage, and the ability to switch one off on not very hot days.

 

[RishiGuru]

We have had apple fanbois, android fanbois, AMD and Intel fanbois even, now we have a SHARP one too who tends to snort at anything that is not sharp. OGenerals operating range ambient is 52c not 46,

I am not here to argue with you, but my suggestions are not vague and baseless as yours.

To prove my point that the O General Inverters have a 46 degree max operating temperature I am providing their Inverter spec list:

O general website link: http://www.generalindia.com/invertors.aspx

 

[TheIndian]

I am not here to argue with you, but my suggestions are not as vague and baseless as yours.

To prove my point that the O General Inverters have a 46 degree max operating temperature I am providing their Inverter spec list:



O general website link: http://www.generalindia.com/invertors.aspx

As you have often said, their site specs are incorrect, yesterdays ad in the paper said 52.

And just to clarify, is SHARP at the top of the AC pyramid , and / or higher than General ?

 

[TheIndian]

I would like to add, I have done this research over 5 years back. At that time inverters were available in only three brands Toshiba, Carrier, and General. Daikin too had it, but never had any stocks ever. While I am not upto speed on the recent specifics, the overall scenario still remains the same. My objective it to point out the alternate choices available to the user, and make his own judgement call on the infomation available. My opinion is my opinion, it is not mean't to be thrust on others as the last say on the subject. But when a false statement is made out to be the absolute truth, I will point that out too. Which is what is happening with Sharp

 

[laugh]

At a very generalised level, the best way to work out the lowest running cost is to

see what the exact heatload in your room is and then the actual cooling capacity.Most AC manufacturers have some version of this

calculator on their website, and there are enough free-field resources to help you reach an approximate heatload estimate for your

room/s.

There is a *very* big difference between operating power between the two states of the airconditioner - compressor draws about 70%

of the power.

Basically, you can achieve power savings by oversizing the airconditioning units to about 1.5x of the actual requirement (or the

next higher tonnage), and to be safer 2x. In the long run, the runtime of the compressors will be 2x lower. Star ratings are

useless as are the gimmick of 'Inverter' units. Yes, they do have power saving merits but if you actually run the numbers for a

1.5T (5 star, 80% duty cycle) versus 2.5T units (1+1.5T, both 3 star, 40% duty cycle) over a five-year period, the latter usually

has a lower TCO but higher initial outlay.

The max saving (and max cost) you ever encounter is with the compressor in the 'ON' position. Simply having it switched off is the

best way to save power in a AC unit. Two units have other benefits too such as more even coverage, and the ability to switch one

off on not very hot days.

I think this is the tried and tested old school method. Bifocals were advertised few years ago as the " new thing" few years ago

but they have been around for decades.

As you have often said, their site specs are incorrect, yesterdays ad in the paper

said 52.

And just to clarify, is SHARP at the top of the AC pyramid , and / or higher than General ?

The one con I see with OG apart from the price is their service. I never had to use it but every technician I meet/ Dealer cautions

me about this. I am trying to reach OG customer care and their store since this afternoon by phone but no one is attending. I will

pay them a visit tonight or tomorrow.

O general website link: http://www.generalindia.com/invertors.aspx

I had a look at the spec sheet before and it shows that they have better range than Sharp but their EER is lower. I will ask the

store guys regarding "all aluminium" and "construction type"

Thanks again to everyone who participated in this thread. I need more help from you. I will try to write a detailed (It can never

be in the league of Rishiguru's) review once I zero in on a model.

 

[TheIndian]

To put it another way
Sharp - Maruti of AC world
Panasonic - Honda and Hyundais
OGeneral, Toshiba, Trane - Mercs

Look forward to your decision and report.

 

[RishiGuru]

I need more help from you.

I am available.

I will try to write a detailed (It can never be in the league of Rishiguru's) review once I zero in on a model.

Great. I hope yours be better than mine. All the best.

 

[cranky]

I think this is the tried and tested old school method. Bifocals were advertised few years ago as the " new thing" few years ago

but they have been around for decades.

I can't tell if you're joking or serious.

A 1.5T inverter AC/80% duty cycle from the pic in this thread (Fujitsu/OG, I assume) will consume 21000 units over a 5 year lifetime if running 8 hours a day.

Two 1T ACs from LG, the lowest-priced model and 'only' 3-star, will consume around 13,500 for the same period running at 40% duty cycle.

Depending on what you pay for electricity, that may end up as a saving of over 20k on electric bills. I have not even factored in the differential running costs by powering the second unit only when needed. The initial outlay should be very similar in both cases, only the cost of installation of the second AC is a slightly higher cost.

For larger units, the saving multiplies quite significantly. Two units need more horizontal space, but that is a small price to pay.

 

[rdst_1]

I can't tell if you're joking or serious.

A 1.5T inverter AC/80% duty cycle from the pic in this thread (Fujitsu/OG, I assume) will consume 21000 units over a 5 year lifetime if running 8 hours a day.

Two 1T ACs from LG, the lowest-priced model and 'only' 3-star, will consume around 13,500 for the same period running at 40% duty cycle.

Depending on what you pay for electricity, that may end up as a saving of over 20k on electric bills. I have not even factored in the differential running costs by powering the second unit only when needed. The initial outlay should be very similar in both cases, only the cost of installation of the second AC is a slightly higher cost.

For larger units, the saving multiplies quite significantly. Two units need more horizontal space, but that is a small price to pay.

Can you please elaborate a bit more as to what configuration you are suggesting.
From what I could infer you are saying to get 2 ACs installed instead of 1 and run them both together.

 

[cranky]

^^Exactly.

Except that when you don't need as much heat removal, you can use only one. And you can mount them for more effective coverage of the area.

The Fujitsu in the pic above is using 1,480W average and I've approximated 80% duty cycle/8hrs/every day/5 years

Two LGs use 1130W each, and with the same parameters I've approximated 40% duty cycle.The LGs have approx 30% more cooling power when combined.

One has to arrive at their exact heatload and usage and work out the individual cases, but in most scenarios of heavy usage, two units work out cheaper than one. For light usage or lower heatload (lower floors, not much sunlight, predominantly humidity removal and similar applications), a smaller unit *may* be cheaper.

My point is that the struggle about brands and technology don't make sense unless the math has been worked out. The price of the AC is a smaller percentage of TCO than is probably imagined, hence it makes sense to first see what the cheapest way is. Inverter ACs only save power when the compressor is on. The 1,480W of the Fujitsu inverter, for example, is not much less than the 1,675W of the cheapest 2-star 1.5T AC: http://www.lg.com/in/split-ac/lg-LSA5UR2F Over the same usage the difference of ~3k units is more than averaged out in difference on the initial price. The 2-star is therefore cheaper to own in the long run. For less usage the differences become even more marginal.

FWIW I used LG as a benchmark brand because they are as nondescript as you can get, and probably among the cheapest brands you can find. Brand fanboyism of any brand does not make sense in this discussion - airconditioning is a utility, and should be treated as such. All the marketers have done is add one layer of fiber cloth to the filter, use copper instead of aluminum as they were always supposed to, brand those features and charge premiums. I trust TE members to be more sensible and able to use objective sense in discussions like this.

 

[RishiGuru]

Inverter ACs only save power when the compressor is on. The 1,480W of the Fujitsu inverter, for example, is not much less than the 1,675W of the cheapest 2-star 1.5T AC: http://www.lg.com/in/split-ac/lg-LSA5UR2F Over the same usage the difference of ~3k units is more than averaged out in difference on the initial price. The 2-star is therefore cheaper to own in the long run. For less usage the differences become even more marginal.

I believe you are omitting a big plus regarding Inverters. They do not always run at their rated power input like non-Inverters. My Sharp 1.5 Ton after five minutes of operation goes down to 200 watts consumption figure even though the compressor is running at very low speeds. After that with set 27 degree indoor temperature it always hover around 100 ~ 300 watts and sometimes go up to 500 watts max. It will never cross the 800 watts figure leave alone the its rated power input of 1440 watts if you keep it constant operational state.

 

[cranky]

Neither do non-inverters. The 200W you see is the fan operation when the compressor is in 'off' state. Even regular ACs cycle their power state and turn the compressor off when the room temperature has reached the set level.

And that's not recent either, my 13-year old Carrier window AC does exactly the same thing.

That is exactly why duty cycles have been used - please read the post carefully. The point is you must be able to reach the desired temperature quickly, hence the sizing considerations of the unit.

The biggest problem with AC use in our country is that people undersize the AC for the actual requirement and the compressor runs all the time because the room never reaches the preset temperature. That is due to idiocy and not a fault of the AC units.

The only possible advantage of the inverters is the ability to increase the compressor power under heavy load. I will give it that, because regular ACs will only run at their max compressor power and never more.

 

[RishiGuru]

^^Exactly. Except that when you don't need as much heat removal, you can use only one. And you can mount them for more effective coverage of the area.

Inverters air conditioners do just that. You are suggesting to initially cool the area with two non-Inverter air conditioners and then shut one down to let the other maintain the temp.

In other words you are suggesting to reduce the total cooling capacity by shutting off one of the ACs. The Inverters also are born on the principle of varying cooling capacity. My 1.5 Ton which maxes at 1.8 Ton while coming down to 0.4 Ton cooling capacity when required.

And also you do not have the extra burden and cost to fit two ACs.

 

[RishiGuru]

Neither do non-inverters. The 200W you see is the fan operation when the compressor is in 'off' state. Even regular ACs cycle their power state and turn the compressor off when the room temperature has reached the set level.

And that's not recent either, my 13-year old Carrier window AC does exactly the same thing.

Nope. The compressor is on since I have seen when its 100 watts the compressor shuts down but as it reaches 200 watts, I compressor turns on and I can hear the compressor running on the ODU even though the ODU fan is off!!!

One of my AC ODU is in the verandah, so I have done lot of experiments!!!

 

[cranky]

What you hear in the ODU is the coolant pump.

Compressors do not operate at 200W, they will clog almost immediately.

I wonder if you even know how an airconditioner actually works and what part of the job is done by the inverter and what part is the compressor. Please educate us on how exactly an inverter AC works.

 

[cranky]

Exactly. Inverters do just that. You are suggesting to reduce the total cooling capacity by shutting off the one of the ACs. The Inverters also reduce cooling capacity. My 1.5 Ton which maxes at 1.8 Ton comes down to 0.4 Ton when required.

And also you do not have the extra burden to fit two ACs.

I think you miss the point totally. I have no interest in continuing this discussion because it seems you are stubborn to a fault. Have you done the math before buying or not? Can you show me the math? If not, this is a subjective and silly argument.