US India diplomatic row over Devyani Khobragade escalates

@blr_p :
Basically anything can be deemed as racist these days in the arena of PC. That is why our caste logic is fitted to being racist too. Though overall it is defined as "calling out someone for a aspect where they are clubbed or generalized".


Example:

1. You are a moron : addressing an individual.
2. You all are morons: addressing a bunch of Indians.

First would not be racism, the second would be; but the context is important, and what all is undersigned.
 
blr_p said:
Racism means you want to kill people of a certain type. That's it.
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i guess you refer to your own special dictionary, authored by yourself.

& yes that diplomat, going by those FB posts, is racist.. saying "its vegetarians that are doing the raping not the meat eaters" & "it applies to Indians not Westerners" is racist in most people's definition of the word & not just by the politically correct ones
 
filmguy said:
i guess you refer to your own special dictionary, authored by yourself.
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I refer to an insight that has stood numerous tests. That's what makes it valuable.

9 out of 10 of you are going to disagree. That's fine. I used to be part of that brigade.

filmguy said:
& yes that diplomat, going by those FB posts, is racist.. saying "its vegetarians that are doing the raping not the meat eaters" & "it applies to Indians not Westerners" is racist in most people's definition of the word & not just by the politically correct ones
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its just a generalisation. Does not mean much.
 
filmguy said:
i guess you refer to your own special dictionary, authored by yourself.

& yes that diplomat, going by those FB posts, is racist.. saying "its vegetarians that are doing the raping not the meat eaters" & "it applies to Indians not Westerners" is racist in most people's definition of the word & not just by the politically correct ones
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Our countrymen calling them racist is like a pot calling the kettle black. Believe me, most Indians would qualify as worse racists than them if Indians own social media and forum posts are any yard stick.

I think the May's posts just sarcastic about the discriminative behaviour of Indians. What do you think of statements/articles from Indians that say that eating meat, Chinese food or non Indian food in general make men want to rape? Isn't that discrimination and stereo typing as well. Isn't that what prompted such posts?

I think the sole reason why most of us Indians categorize everything as racism is because of the very discriminative nature of our countrymen. Our countrymen think they are somehow superior to everyone else and think they deserve special treatment and when they don't get it, its categorized as racism.
 
sid_donnydarko said:
Foreigner + In India + spread False facts = A strict no no

Alicia May's comments were about the rise of rape reports in a largely vegan community. For someone who sports an avatar supporting women power, i find it very strange that you seem more concerned with the racial perspective of the comments in question. Is it because Alicia May is an American woman?
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It was sarcasm. To show-case the insular and livid nature of our Indian society.
 
Lord Nemesis said:
Our countrymen calling them racist is like a pot calling the kettle black. Believe me, most Indians would qualify as worse racists than them if Indians own social media and forum posts are any yard stick.
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I use the same logic to reply to this as well. No we are not racist unless we have a deep seated hatred and advocate violence against others. When have we ever done that ?

The most traumatic incident to occur in this country in the last 100 years is partition. Nothing else comes close.

Sorry, you've going to have to use other words to describe our behaviour.

Lord Nemesis said:
I think the sole reason why most of us Indians categorize everything as racism is because of the very discriminative nature of our countrymen. Our countrymen think they are somehow superior to everyone else and think they deserve special treatment and when they don't get it, its categorized as racism.
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It's not just Indians, its the product of PC. We've lowered the barriers for racism.

Say bad things about your people = not racist
Say bad things about other people = racist.

This is the nonsense that is being propagated.
 
blr_p said:
I use the same logic to reply to this as well. No we are not racist unless we have a deep seated hatred and advocate violence against others. When have we ever done that ?

The most traumatic incident to occur in this country in the last 100 years is partition. Nothing else comes close.

Sorry, you've going to have to use other words to describe our behaviour.
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You don't need to have a deep seated hatred and advocate violence for it to be defined as racism. While racism specifically pertained to discrimination based on race earlier, these days the same word is often used to describe many other types of discrimination as well.

Let me give some examples

My "X"an employee looks weaker than my dog because he doesn't take enough protein. Many "X"ans I met are like that.
This is simply a statement. There is nothing wrong about it. it may be right or wrong.

All "X"ans are weak. My dog looks better than any "X"an.
This is stereotyping. While it is also not good to jump to conclusions, it is not uncommon and there times when there is statistical or observational evidence behind such statements to show that many if not all follow that pattern. Often this can also become the basis for discrimination.

All "X"ans are useless. I will make sure to fail them in tests. I will never hire any "X"ans for jobs.
"X"ans don't deserve as much as "Y"ans. They should only get half even if they do the same work.
All "X"ans are inferior. They should not have any rights and should be enslaved.
I have a fear of "X"ans. I will use a stun gun on any "X"an that ever comes near me.
I hate "X"ans. They should be driven away from our town.

These are all cases of active discrimination and can qualify as Racism whether there is any intent of physical violence or not.

And FYI, even violent discriminative actions are not so uncommon in India as you seem to think they are. If you consider all caste, religion, region based discrimination as racism, there is plenty of violent displays of racism in the country. Even foreigners are regularly targeted for violence like burglary, abduction, rape and murder because they stand out due to their white or black color or because they stand out as foreigners. Most of these do not even make it papers. Embassies have been regularly giving advisories regarding this particularly about cities like New Delhi where such crime is rampart.
 
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filmguy said:
guys defending the 2 diplomats, remember you're not "real" since you dont belong to the "real world" :rolleyes:
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And what school of thinking do you subscribe to ?

I know you don't agree with what i said. So what do you agree with.

cannot really respond otherwise.[DOUBLEPOST=1389826910][/DOUBLEPOST]LN what is your intent with the following.

Lord Nemesis said:
Believe me, most Indians would qualify as worse racists than them if Indians own social media and forum posts are any yard stick.
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You state that most indians are already racists. How many indians engage in social media to begin with. less than 10% of that figure but leave that aside. Its a very large sample. So how much is most in a country of 1.2 billion plus.

By your yardstick close to a billion. By my yardstick only those that instigate riots or advocate and engage in violent behaviour. How many here ? a lot fewer. Those dissing others don't qualify because its meaningless.

I'm keeping the definition of racism simple and defined as opposed to blurring lines and generalising. Very difficult to get justice that way whereas with mine its an imperative. What is actionable and what is not. And yet we see how slowly the wheels of justice turn even with my definition. This is the reality.
 
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Posts on this thread just amazes me. It shows how self flagellant we as a people are. So the justification for US diplomat's behavior is that "we do the same" or there are people who talk about "chinese food causing rapes". Are you serious?

I am just imagining a situation where you have an Indian diplomat posted in US drawing a parallel between steak and the school shootings. Would the Americans say - we can't call that guy racist or hurtful because we have the Klu klux or white supremacists between us. Or we racially profile black inmates every year?I dont see that happening.

We would rather say "He/she shouldn't talk like that. He/she is a diplomat and something better is expected out of him/her. Oh! we are so racist. Caste-ism is in our blood etc etc" Simply put, the amount of righteous behavior is amazing. And then we wonder why our politicians bow in front of another country.

Now this has surfaced:
http://www.firstpost.com/india/mult...merican-embassy-school-unearthed-1343915.html
I am sure we are going to find a way to self flagellate as to how Indians are lax at paying their taxes etc etc
 
sid_donnydarko said:
Is your idea of an apt response aggressive misrepresentation of facts by the government, media and the online public? Followed by passive aggressive bullying of American diplomats by retracting privileges? Over-reaction does not improve the efficiency of an investigation. If there is some sort of tax scam then we need only thoroughly investigate, convict and expel guilty diplomats. Bullying a bully does not make us any better.

The FB comment in question was revealing, sarcastic, racist and disturbing from four different perspectives. The diplomat's wife, a woman first, left behind those comments in disgust of the local attitude towards women.
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You, sir, are the whole definition of "debating on the internet":
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2011-06-03/?Page=2
Cause no where I talked about any facts(aggressive or misrepresented or both combined), rather the reaction on comments by diplomat's wife on this thread.
I did say "I am sure we are going to find a way to self flagellate as to how Indians are lax at paying their taxes etc etc" -- but you did put a new spin on it - passive aggressive bullying. Well then thats what it is - You are correct. (Sorry the troll trap failed!)
Though there is the marvel - "Bullying a bully" - Weren't they naive, up standing, law abiding etc some pages ago. Makes me go hmmmm on your credibility. Added you to my ignored list. Thanks for the nonsensical point you made.
 
All the nod-winks are going to be up-turned and laxity in rules are going to be curbed, basically. I think it is good: the extra privileges which the US diplomats and their related criterion had in the past as gestures of being our guests from a country of importance -being- removed. It is sad to see, that this was initiated or became a catalytic factor when one of our own was at the receiving end in America, but it is a good start.

As a side note: my school used to have game tournaments with AES (and BS too). Athletes from our side (a good proportion were European and American too) were amazed at ACSA (being in India); how in the 80's and early 90's they had products which were not available in India. Even the toilet-paper and Coke/Pepsi were imported (when these soft-drinks were not in India)...! What, times show...! Sigh...!
 
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This entire thread is hilarious beyond belief. People actually quoting NYPD rules and all. Plenty of other rules being quoted, and from what I could gather many are actually justifying how Americans acted and rubbishing our reaction.

Diplomats around the world get away with murder literally and we have people defending NYPD ? I wonder if these very same people have read the rule book on road blocks outside the US embassy in India ? (Do they even care their liberties are being taken away), plus a whole lot of other stuff that has been coming in the papers of late, where did the rule book go then? Diplomacy is about give and take. Should we go in and arrest all the US diplomats wives for working without a Visa ? From what I can see, that maid lived like a goddamn princess compared what she would be living if she was in India, and the whole thing was provoked for a reason, god knows what.

Grow some Cohones people, learn to stand up for yourself instead of finding every opportunity to brown nose Goras.

The only good thing that came out of this is, the Govt finally wakes up to they are not as important to Americans as they would like to think
 
sid_donnydarko said:
I've always found us to be insular. But considering its now in vogue to self-flagellate don't you think we, at least the under-privileged would jump at the first opportunity to work in a country; a country that they've been brought up to believe is far superior to ours in every way. Just today, i asked someone from the lower class whom i meet daily and he said he'd jump at the first chance to get out of here even if its a small break with the same measly pay. Sure, the sample size is grossly small but i'd say its indicative in some way.



The legal perspective tells us that Sangeetha stands to benefit only if the settlement comes through. But this perspective also reveals something else. If she wasn't intelligent enough to figure out that the settlement would never work out then there's no way she's intelligent enough to be part of some CIA conspiracy and is easily deceivable by the Khobragade's. I for one never thought for a second that a settlement was on the cards at any moment no matter how wealthy a "mark" Devyani is. Having said this, Its more likely that Devyani was the one taking advantage of Sangeetha even though she looked after her.



She'll have scrounge out a living if we assume that her plan to extort Devyani failed. But if she's dumb enough to be taken advantage of its safer for herself and her family in America when the dust settles on this case.



Well maybe its a trend now but there is the possibility that this case is an exception.



I never quoted any rules. I was trying to understand the situation from the perspective of a US marshall whom i confused with an NYPD officer out of ignorance.



USG has just recently asked for the same privileges to be restored. Expel the guilty if convicted.

So what if she lived like a princess abroad; Devyani could've still been underpaying her on US soil? This case is at best a cultural mess. USG's made a mistake when they thought they had a solid case on their hands without considering the implications with respect to cultural differences and bilateral-relations. Preet's mistake was that he thought we would find his righteous statement appealing. He should've stuck with the law alone. Our mistake is over-reacting, misrepresenting facts and then indulging in passive-aggressive bullying to teach the Americans a lesson in an attempt to appear to be the victims of some massive conspiracy. Everyone's going home a loser. An embarrassing mistake only to be countered by another from the opposition.



Tell that to the corrupt politicians who fold their hands and wear white shirts.

Tell that to the Indian professionals who fall all over goras only to end up b**ching about the same goras when they return to India upon losing their foreign jobs.

Tell that to the Indians who become patriots in a split-second over a pay raise.

Tell that to the Indians who b**ch about India only to turn around and criticize a foreign nation.



You can't become patriotic overnight just because you want to.

We Indians think we're entitled to make mistakes; contradict ourselves and blame everyone else except ourselves since
1) We were ruled by the British
2) We are a developing nation

We need to start raising standards instead of lowering them.



Giving someone the benefit of the doubt and brown-nosing are two entirely different things. Expelling the diplomat was the right thing to do. Making a scene by confusing undiplomatic behaviour with racism in a fit of unchecked rage is embarrassing. The ones doing the brown-nosing is our government.
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Sorry if I am not in a forgiving mood to give benefit of doubt. If it were upto me, I would have half a dozen of the Americans in our stockades and not one would be crossing security lines without a thorough frisk/check. Call it what you want.

and please correct your post, half the things in there which you attribute to me, are not mine.
 
sid_donnydarko said:
I've always found us to be insular. But considering its now in vogue to self-flagellate don't you think we, at least the under-privileged would jump at the first opportunity to work in a country; a country that they've been brought up to believe is far superior to ours in every way. Just today, i asked someone from the lower class whom i meet daily and he said he'd jump at the first chance to get out of here even if its a small break with the same measly pay. Sure, the sample size is grossly small but i'd say its indicative in some way.
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If he could get the same with another employer in the same city then why go further. A least the environment is the same, that insular bit comes back and bites unless you are sufficiently motivated. Ok, so its a step in the door. If things improve with the next job then it was worth it otherwise not.

sid_donnydarko said:
The legal perspective tells us that Sangeetha stands to benefit only if the settlement comes through. But this perspective also reveals something else. If she wasn't intelligent enough to figure out that the settlement would never work out then there's no way she's intelligent enough to be part of some CIA conspiracy and is easily deceivable by the Khobragade's. I for one never thought for a second that a settlement was on the cards at any moment no matter how wealthy a "mark" Devyani is. Having said this, Its more likely that Devyani was the one taking advantage of Sangeetha even though she looked after her.
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there is no CIA conspiracy of any sort :D

She did not have to figure out too much, the lawyers did the rest. An ambitious lead prosecutor is always looking for a case with good PR.

There is no mark here, sangeetha saw an opportunity and took it. I really doubt there is the possibility of any out of court settlement here. Devyani is out of the country but her kids and us born physician husband are still in NYC.

sid_donnydarko said:
She'll have scrounge out a living if we assume that her plan to extort Devyani failed. But if she's dumb enough to be taken advantage of its safer for herself and her family in America when the dust settles on this case.
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if she wins her case then its not extortion. I think chances are good going by malhotra's case.

sid_donnydarko said:
Well maybe its a trend now but there is the possibility that this case is an exception.
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The T visa can be exploited and this is one more example.
 
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