51-70k Need some suggestions to buy various components

[ThaBurger]

Hey folks,

I think it's about time I upgrade my aging PC and I would appreciate any advice you guys could give me.

I plan to upgrade within the next 6-8 weeks. If I can get significantly better deals/hardware, I don't mind waiting a few weeks more.

I didn't find a suitable place to add details in the template, so I've posted them after the template section.

1. What is your budget?
   • Approximately 45-60k, but it's flexible. Please suggest lower cost alternatives too.
2. What is your existing hardware configuration (component name - component brand and model)
   • CPU - AMD Phenom II X4 945
   • Motherboard - ASUS M4A78-EM/1394
   • GPU - ATI Radeon HD 5850
   • RAM - Corsair DDR2 2 GB x 3
   • Monitors - 2 x 18.5" LCD
   • SMPS - Corsair TX650
   • Case - NZXT Tempest EVO
   • Three hard drives of various capacities
3. Which hardware will you be keeping (component name - component brand and model)
   • GPU - ATI Radeon HD 5850
   • SMPS - Corsair TX650
   • All three HDDs
   • One of the monitors
4. Which hardware component are you looking to buy (component name). If you have already decided on a configuration then please mention the (component brand and model) as well, this will help us in fine tuning your requirement.
   • CPU
   • Motherboard
   • RAM
   • CPU cooler
   • SSD
   • Two Monitors
   • (I've added more details at the end of the post)
5. Is this going to be your final configuration or you would be adding/upgrading a component in near future. If yes then please mention when and which component
   • I might upgrade just about anything other than the CPU and the motherboard
6. Where will you buy this hardware? (Online/City/TE Dealer)
   • Bangalore
   • Open to online purchase
7. Would you consider buying a second hand hardware from the TE market
   • Yes
8. What is your intended use for this PC/hardware
   • Gaming
   • Browsing
   • Software development
   • Running multiple virtual machines
   • And for a few months, 24x7 usage
9. Do you have any brand preference or dislike? Please name them and the reason for your preference/dislike.
   • I have no brand preferences, but I need full Linux support.
10. If you will be playing games then which type of games will you be playing?
    • All sorts of games, mainly racing, action and FPS
    • I'm not much of a gamer, and I don't mind reducing the graphics settings if needed.
11. What is your preferred monitor resolution for gaming and normal usage
    • 1080p
12. Are you looking to overclock?
    • Most probably no, but a little bit of overclocking headroom would be good, as long as it doesn't come at an added price.
13. Which operating system do you intend to use with this configuration?
    • GNU/Linux - CentOS, Fedora, Debian, Mint
    • Windows 7 64 bit

Details

1. CPU
   • Quad core (HT would be great)
   • Good single-core performance
   • I would really like a CPU that supports AES-NI instructions, but it's not absolutely required
   • If possible, a CPU socket that will support upgrades for a few years (for upper-mid range CPU upgrades)
2. Motherboard
   • USB 3
   • SATA 3
   • At least six internal SATA connectors (only two of them need to be SATA 3) - please suggest a PCI-E SATA card if not.
3. RAM
   • 3 x 4GB DDR3
4. CPU cooler
   • Mid-range - Something decent that will keep the CPU cool even under high load and high temperatures. I won't overclock.
5. 120-160 GB SSD
   • Longevity is more important than raw performance.
   • I was considering the Samsung 840 Pro 128GB.
6. Two 21"+ IPS panel monitors
   • Don't need the fancy, expensive ones. I noticed that the entry level IPS monitors have become pretty cheap now. I'd like one of those (well, two of those).
   • Resolution of at least 1080p.
   • Don't mind boxier aspect ratios.

I want to thank all of you a lot in advance for your help.

Please feel free to post suggestions for changing my requirements. It's been years since I last updated myself with hardware news, and as such, I'm sure I have a lot of out-dated/false information.

Thanks again

Regards

 

[amitkher]

1. Would you play games in Linux?
2. You've decided on an SSD but not told about its purpose. Accelerating game loading? Development tools / compilation? SSD needs to be accessible from windows and linux ? If usage is very varied, SSD size needs to be increased.
3. I see lots of reboots in your life if you use windows and Linux both a lot. If development is on Linux and gaming on windows, have you considered developing in Linux VMs in windows? This gets rid of Linux friendly requirement for hardware.
4. PCI-E SATA cards are mostly Linux friendly, but not reboot friendly. I.e. they add to boot times as mostly they have their own BIOS and POST. Hardware RAID is not recommended for RAID controller costing less than $500, and software RAID solutions are typically incompatible between Linux and windows. Keep these in mind when going for cards,same goes for extra SATA controllers added by motherboard manufacturer.
5. 6 sata3 ports are easily available in I many intel motherboards released in last 2 months and AMD ones released in last 2 years. If you need more, H/Z87 chipsets allow for 8 SATA6 ports based on the chipset (by reducing 2 PCI-E lanes elsewhere) but I've not found any motherboard doing this, for any price, yet. You might want to wait for them - better than third party SATA controllers.
6. From most of your requirements, haswell system might make sense for you. But CENTOS may not get support for haswell till CentOS 7. Good use of SSDs has also not reached there. I see solutions for your problems only in kernels from last one year, that is when Intel was busy adding haswell support. CentOS has mostly 5 year old kernel code now.

 

[ThaBurger]

Thanks for your reply.

I guess I should have specified my usage more clearly. I plan to use Linux mainly, most probably Debian. Once in a few weeks, I might boot into Windows 7 for games or other Windows-only stuff.

1. Would you play games in Linux?

I might, but it's not an important requirement. Are there any problems that I might have to watch out for?

2. You've decided on an SSD but not told about its purpose. Accelerating game loading? Development tools / compilation? SSD needs to be accessible from windows and linux ? If usage is very varied, SSD size needs to be increased.

The SSD will contain Windows and most Linux partitions. Swap, /tmp, the pagefile and the Windows TEMP directory will be on HDDs or RAM disks. The main purpose is to increase performance. I think I'll need around 60 GB for Windows. Another 60 GB for Debian would be more than enough.

3. I see lots of reboots in your life if you use windows and Linux both a lot. If development is on Linux and gaming on windows, have you considered developing in Linux VMs in windows? This gets rid of Linux friendly requirement for hardware.

Linux will be my main OS, so I don't want to run it inside Windows.

4. PCI-E SATA cards are mostly Linux friendly, but not reboot friendly. I.e. they add to boot times as mostly they have their own BIOS and POST. Hardware RAID is not recommended for RAID controller costing less than $500, and software RAID solutions are typically incompatible between Linux and windows. Keep these in mind when going for cards,same goes for extra SATA controllers added by motherboard manufacturer.

What about the in-built SATA controller on the motherboard? I was planning to have a 4 x 2TB RAID 10 array some time.

5. 6 sata3 ports are easily available in I many intel motherboards released in last 2 months and AMD ones released in last 2 years. If you need more, H/Z87 chipsets allow for 8 SATA6 ports based on the chipset (by reducing 2 PCI-E lanes elsewhere) but I've not found any motherboard doing this, for any price, yet. You might want to wait for them - better than third party SATA controllers.

I think six will be enough. Thanks for the info.

6. From most of your requirements, haswell system might make sense for you. But CENTOS may not get support for haswell till CentOS 7. Good use of SSDs has also not reached there. I see solutions for your problems only in kernels from last one year, that is when Intel was busy adding haswell support. CentOS has mostly 5 year old kernel code now.

I see. I included CentOS just in case. If it has trouble with the hardware, I can use Fedora or Debian as my main OS and run CentOS in a VM.

 

[amitkher]

I might, but it's not an important requirement. Are there any problems that I might have to watch out for?

For all requirements other than graphics intensive games, Intel Haswell graphics is more than enough (desktop compositing, accelerated HD movie watching, multiple monitors, non graphics intensive games). But if you don't get a graphics card - graphics intensive video games are completely out. You might get one for enabling in Windows only, but then I see it is not value for money. AMD HD 2xxx and HD 3xxx have perfect support, so does Nvidia 9xxx series. These are old, newer ones will work, but might have issues.

Once in a few weeks, I might boot into Windows 7 for games or other Windows-only stuff

Other than games, most other stuff will work great on a windows VM. Even Vritualbox has a PCI passthrough support now, so hardware that linux doesn't have a driver for, can be directly seen by the windows VM.

The SSD will contain Windows and most Linux partitions. Swap, /tmp, the pagefile and the Windows TEMP directory will be on HDDs or RAM disks. The main purpose is to increase performance. I think I'll need around 60 GB for Windows. Another 60 GB for Debian would be more than enough.

Page file on RAM disk , funny. I thought windows support for RAM disk is not great? Anyway. If you are aware of space requirements, then no problem.

What about the in-built SATA controller on the motherboard? I was planning to have a 4 x 2TB RAID 10 array some time.

Yes, like I said, "same goes for extra SATA controllers added by motherboard manufacturer". E.g. Marvell or ASMedia controllers that motherboard manufacturer typically add. They are unlikely to have any significant processing power of their own - they ride on your CPU's processing power, no better than software RAID (btrfs has come a long way, ZFS on linux is also doing great though need DKMS for kernel updates). Imagine a situation when motherboard is fried , and manufacturer is giving you trouble to RMA it. Just to save your data, you would have to buy another motherboard of the same rascal company which is again likely to get fried. Not a great situation to be in, right?

Problem with btrfs RAID or ZFS RAID is that the data is not accessible when you are on windows. If that is fine, since Linux is going to be your main OS, I would advise this rather than hardware RAID.

I see. I included CentOS just in case. If it has trouble with the hardware, I can use Fedora or Debian as my main OS and run CentOS in a VM.

Ok, note that Debian stable will have the same problem. Use Debian testing / Fedora for best hardware compatibility.

Based on all this, I see :
ASRock H87 Pro4 - Rs 7350 + shipping : http://www.theitdepot.com/details-ASRock H87 Pro4 32GB DDR3 Intel Motherboard_C13P18032.html
Intel 3 GHz LGA1150 4430 i5 4th Generation Processor : 12733 shipped
2*Philips IPS LED monitor E-line 21.5 - 2*9000 + shipping : http://www.primeabgb.com/index.php?...tegory_id=479&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53
RAM : 3x4 will deprive you of an extra free RAM slot for future as well as alignment of RAM. Get 2x8=16GB RAM. For Haswell, I have not yet come across information about the best value for money frequency of RAM, but this looks ok. Corsair Vengeance DDR3 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) PC RAM (CMZ16GX... Rs 8745 shipped. Not too sure of this, though.
Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO Cooler : Rs 2355 shipped. Can be postponed until you see a need for it, or decide to "overclock" by upgrading your processor to an unlocked one. Unlocked Haswells don't do well in virtualization, though.
Samsung 128GB 840 Pro Series SSD : Rs. 9049 shipped
Total 58232 + shippings. (without graphics card).

 

[ThaBurger]

For all requirements other than graphics intensive games, Intel Haswell graphics is more than enough

I want to keep my existing HD5850.

Other than games, most other stuff will work great on a windows VM.

The main purpose of Windows is games, so that won't work.

Page file on RAM disk , funny. I thought windows support for RAM disk is not great?

Perhaps, I don't know. I was just thinking about taking care of my SSD - it's my first. Some programs act up if there's no page file. So I thought I might have it on an HDD or a RAM disk (whichever works).

Yes, like I said, "same goes for extra SATA controllers added by motherboard manufacturer".

Sorry, I was a little confused when you said "extra." Motherboard newbie here

Ok, note that Debian stable will have the same problem.

Darn. Please tell me Mint or Ubuntu are unaffected by this. I have no clue how much or what kind of code they share with Debian.

2*Philips IPS LED monitor E-line 21.5 - 2*9000 + shipping

Is this model better than the entry-level IPS displays from other manufacturers? Just curious.

RAM : 3x4 will deprive you of an extra free RAM slot for future as well as alignment of RAM.

I'm intrigued. What's RAM alignment? (Google wasn't of much help at all)

Get 2x8=16GB RAM.

Is it still (if ever) true that having three RAM sticks helps get the most performance with DDR3 (I recall hearing something about triple channel and stuff)? And would it be worth buying 3 x 8GB RAM to get that extra performance?

Can I get a better CPU + motherboard combo keeping my HD5850? Also please suggest lower cost alternatives if possible. I'm still not sure how much CPU power I actually need.

Thanks a lot for your help. Much appreciated.

 

[amitkher]

I want to keep my existing HD5850.

Not a problem. HD5xxx works reasonably well In Linux, just not as great as HD2xxx and HD3xxx. If you have any problem, you could disable the AMD graphics card as long as you are on Linux and enjoy the perfect Intel graphics support. Lower performance of Intel graphics should not matter for your usage scenario.

The main purpose of Windows is games, so that won't work.

Correct. Reboot to windows.

Perhaps, I don't know. I was just thinking about taking care of my SSD - it's my first. Some programs act up if there's no page file. So I thought I might have it on an HDD or a RAM disk (whichever works).

I checked a few years ago, and found only expensive software for RAM disk in windows. Not being much interested in windows myself, I did not pursue the matter. If you know about operating systems theory, you'd realize why it is funny to use a RAM disk as page file. Anyway, with 16GB (or even 12), need for page file is purely ornamental for your use case, as you say - some programs act up. In most games, you wouldn't actually use much of page file, so storing it on spinning rust hard drives should be fine.

Darn. Please tell me Mint or Ubuntu are unaffected by this. I have no clue how much or what kind of code they share with Debian.

Ubuntu and Mint-debian edition are based on Debian testing. So should have enough Haswell support already.

Is this model better than the entry-level IPS displays from other manufacturers? Just curious.

This is one of the first cheap IPS displays that was available, I use it, still is one of the cheaper ones, has good reviews, and response time is not too bad despite being a cheap IPS display. As far as comparison with other monitors is concerned - I am not qualified. From your usage scenario it seemed that it won't matter much.

I'm intrigued. What's RAM alignment? (Google wasn't of much help at all)

Is it still (if ever) true that having three RAM sticks helps get the most performance with DDR3 (I recall hearing something about triple channel and stuff)? And would it be worth buying 3 x 8GB RAM to get that extra performance?

Ok my bad, I didn't use the correct technical word (alignment). It is called Dual Channel RAM - placing RAM sticks in correct slots (indicated in manual, usually alternate slots for 4 DIMM motherboards) makes motherboard use them in parallel giving double the data rate. When using 3 sticks, one of the RAM sticks cannot get that advantage and the system suffers. For most usage scenarios, it doesn't matter noticeably, but why knowingly screw up your own system's performance.

As far as triple channel is concerned - that is reserved for Intel's high-end processors - the Xeons and i7-extreme editions. DDR3 is still dual data rate only, even if it is the third generation of the standard. So get RAM sticks in pairs for best results.

Can I get a better CPU + motherboard combo keeping my HD5850? Also please suggest lower cost alternatives if possible. I'm still not sure how much CPU power I actually need.

HD5850 wouldn't matter, your main usage scenario doesn't need any more than Haswell graphics, HD5850 should also work. The processor I suggested is best in my opinion - even has vt-d which some more expensive locked i5s and i7s don't have, and none of the unlocked processors have it. Being cheaper, you can upgrade in 1, 2 or 3 years more easily than if you spent more now. Even if next - gen processors are incompatible with the motherboard, better Haswell processors are very likely to be available later. Money better spent this way, in my opinion.

You can get the i7-4770k with pro level z87 motherboard and increase the price by total 10k more, but I don't see the need for that given your use case, and I don't see much value for increased expenditure. And then you are not much interested in overclocking, neither are Haswell processors themselves much interested in being overclocked as they run hot.

 

[ThaBurger]

You can get the i7-4770k with pro level z87 motherboard and increase the price by total 10k more, but I don't see the need for that given your use case

I doubt I'll go that way, but I'll keep it in mind. An i7 does get me bragging rights.

I thought about your advice and the config you suggested, and I realized your suggested config is absolutely brilliant -

• The IGP should save a significant amount of power (my HD5850 increases its frequency and runs hotter as I add monitors) and it supports up to three monitors, which is exactly what I need.
• The CPU has AES-NI which should help me with Truecrypt/dm-crypt/eCryptfs.
• I read a little about VT-d and I think I'll find it useful.
• The motherboard has all the features I need.

I just have two more question -

1. Is it easy to switch between the IGP and the HD5850 in Linux without physically removing the HD5850? I don't mind re-booting. I found some articles explaining how to do it in laptops with switchable graphics but none of them specifically said it would work on desktops too.
2. I couldn't find Linux drivers in the ASUS website. Could this be a problem?

Thanks a lot for the advice.

 

[amitkher]

Yup, I chose the processor because it has most of the features at a low price. Even without AES-NI, linux (at least dmcrypt) has been parallellized so performs well. Of course AES-NI is also used and helps.

1. No, it is not easy to switch in Linux. Switch while rebooting - BIOS / UEFI user interface should have a way to disable graphics card. No one is reviewing H87 motherboards these days so can't be 100% sure. In the worst case, open the cabinet and remove graphics card . Anyway you'll have to perform a manual reconnect of monitors to motherboard's slots from graphics card's slots.
2. In general, avoid going to device manufacturer's website for drivers. First check your linux distribution's way of installing drivers (Ubuntu and Mint will propose to install drivers from AMD automatically. Fedora has a repository for this). If drivers not found using distribution's way, always go to chipset manufacturer's website i.e. AMD in this case (ATI Radeon HD 5850).

Secondly, by default most linux distributions will use the open-source drivers which have lower performance but are much more stable. Use them first, and go for driver installation only if performance is seriously affected.

 

[random2]

@TheBurger

VT and VT-d are available only in non-K Intel processors. If you want them, dont go for 4770K

If your VM usage is heavy, its better to have it.

 

[ThaBurger]

Switch while rebooting - BIOS / UEFI user interface should have a way to disable graphics card.

Yes, but will Linux be fine with a switch? Will I have to do anything extra to let it know that I changed the GPU?

Anyway you'll have to perform a manual reconnect of monitors to motherboard's slots from graphics card's slots.

That's far less inconvenient than removing the GPU.

In general, avoid going to device manufacturer's website for drivers.

Sorry, I meant to say ASRock, not ASUS. I was looking for drivers for the on-board chipsets, specifically the audio chipset and the LAN card. Now that I googled it again, I found drivers for the audio chipset, but not the LAN card. Must have made a typo before.

Sorry for the nooby questions BTW, I have very little experience running Linux outside a VM. I normally just use the standard KVM/VMware/VirtualBox emulated hardware.

VT and VT-d are available only in non-K Intel processors. If you want them, dont go for 4770K

Thanks for the heads-up!

If your VM usage is heavy, its better to have it.

Definitely. I can live without VT-d, but I absolutely need VT.

 

[amitkher]

Yes, but will Linux be fine with a switch? Will I have to do anything extra to let it know that I changed the GPU?

You bet Linux will be fine. I boot the same operating system(same hard drive) on 2 completely different systems with different hard drives. No issues. But I avoid (and ask you to avoid) AMD's non-open-source graphics drivers if possible. Try the default open source drivers and there should be no problem switching. With non-open-source drivers, no guarantees.

That's far less inconvenient than removing the GPU.

Right. My 12 year old computer also had a switch to disable AGP graphics and use onboard. I am 99% sure ASRock would have a switch to disable graphics card in UEFI - but not 100%.

Sorry, I meant to say ASRock, not ASUS. I was looking for drivers for the on-board chipsets, specifically the audio chipset and the LAN card. Now that I googled it again, I found drivers for the audio chipset, but not the LAN card. Must have made a typo before.

To hell with ASRock. It has Intel LAN "card". Intel hardware works great with Linux, no need for "installing" drivers. Realtek audio also works great with Linux. Actually I recommended this motherboard with all this in mind. Maybe I should have explained the reason behind the choice.

Sorry for the nooby questions BTW, I have very little experience running Linux outside a VM. I normally just use the standard KVM/VMware/VirtualBox emulated hardware.

Ok, I was wondering how you are 50% familiar with linux and 50% nooby. This explains it - VM experience. Don't worry, non-VM experience would blow your mind.

 

[ThaBurger]

Don't worry, non-VM experience would blow your mind.

I sure hope so. I'm still looking for comparable Linux alternatives for Foobar2000 and Trillian, but I should finally be able to make the switch in a couple weeks.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll buy the components you suggested soon (might change the monitors though - the bezel on that Philips monitor is huge)

 

[amitkher]

I sure hope so. I'm still looking for comparable Linux alternatives for Foobar2000 and Trillian, but I should finally be able to make the switch in a couple weeks.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll buy the components you suggested soon (might change the monitors though - the bezel on that Philips monitor is huge)

Ok, take someone's advice about RAM too. As I said earlier, I am not sure of optimal RAM frequency with Haswell as no one seems to have reviewed it from that perspective. The heat spreaders of the Corsair Vengeance RAM might interfere with CPU cooler too.

 

[ThaBurger]

Ok, take someone's advice about RAM too. As I said earlier, I am not sure of optimal RAM frequency with Haswell as no one seems to have reviewed it from that perspective. The heat spreaders of the Corsair Vengeance RAM might interfere with CPU cooler too.

Alright. I'll make a post in the appropriate hardware section when I'm ready to buy.