Audio Audiophile and gears

I have spent the past few days trying to find an answer. Does using a higher power amp with the same hardware help in better detail retrieval, enhancing the soundstage and instrument separation etc. And from what I have read and discussed at other places, it seems that almost all evidence is anecdotal.
In simpler terms, an amp should have enough power to drive the HP/speaker. Now everyone talks about impedance, whereas the more important factor here is 'Sensitivity/Efficiency' instead. These are the power requirements of a HD650

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As you can see these are next to nothing and any cheap amp has enough power to drive them easily. This is because despite having an impedance of 300 ohm, they also have an efficiency of 103dB at 1V.

Now, see the power requirements for a 50 ohm Hifiman HE-6. It needs a lot more power to be driven properly because of it's low efficiency of 83.5dB and that is why Hifiman recommends to pair them with their EF6 Amplifier which can serve 5W per channel which is in the territory of Speaker amps.

View attachment 110179

So basically, my question is, why do some people design and others buy amps which are very clearly overpowering and are not needed for a specific hardware. Same thing is for DACs. The spec to judge a DAC by is SNR. And even small dongles are exemplary in that regard including the very capable Apple dongle as so many of us have found out.

So why this mad rush to design and buy stuff that is clearly not needed. I can understand the need of better power supply designs to provide cleaner power but all the marketing hype is always about amp power or some other thing which really doesn't matter and most people have nothing but 'placebo' due to the expensive hardware they just bought.

I would love to be taught more about these things from fellow learned members.

Edit - This question and discussion arose because I find that I prefer listening to my HD650s at comparably higher volumes as I find that the details and instrument separation aren't that good at lower volumes. People talk about using higher powered amps for better SQ at low volumes, but there is no science to support it at all. In my case, I think it is my hearing and my forever clogged nose and ears which might be ultimately responsible for me having to use higher volumes.

While all the science is great, most of us enjoy gears which don't necessarily measure the best and have some amount of harmonic distortion. Today many amp manufacturers in the quest of SINAD make amps which measure really well, but don't sound even a single bit good musically. While measurements do help us understand the science whether you like the sound or not can be judged only post an audition. This topic of science vs subjective audio has been discussed to death so to each his own , but based on actual experience myself and also feedback from many seasoned members I can say that a very good measuring amp does not equal very good sound output.

Coming to the point of driving the headphones, you are right that its not impedance alone but the sensitivity which matters to understand how easy a headphone is to drive. As you mentioned when pairing a headphone with an amplifier it is not just the power but also.the synergy. I had a matrix M-Stage HPA-3B amp which did almost 3.8wpc , could drive majority of the headphones with ease but the HD6x0 sounded dry and lifeless. When I upgraded to a different SS the synergy was much better and the SQ also went up a notch or two. As you move higher up the chain till a particular price point for amplifiers and DACs, there will be an improvement in department of soundstage/ treble details/mids / instrument separation and the improvements will be miniscule higher you go in the price. The HD600 scale tremendously as you go higher up the chain and can take on headphones many times it's price and hence the recommendation to pair it with a good well built amplifier ( OTL in most cases) . I have tried the HD600 across amplifiers of various price ranges and can attest to the fact that they behave differently with various amps and its certainly not attributed to power reserve since they run at 1/4th of the dial with a 200 mw tube OTL. Also the lower volume listening with a better amplifier is not based purely on the aspect of more power, but is more dependent on transducer I feel. A headphone which needs higher amount of power will not ideally suit low volume listening regardless of the amplifier. I like to listen to HD600 on low /medium volumes as opposed to the Hifiman Ananda, Ananda sound much better at higher spl levels despite being relatively easier to drive compared to old gen planars

Finally to give my view on power reserve, the most important reason to have reserve power is to support the dynamic swings of power required in certain passages ( not sure how much of importance it holds in headphones as opposed to speakers), this results in better dynamics , much better lows and eventually making you feel the soundstage and presentation also has improved for the better. Secondly the amplifier should not be over driven or driven to near edge limits which can result in either a blown amplifier or in majority of the cases a shorter lifespan ( hardly happens for headphones as you will screw your ears before that happens).
 
I do remember someone on Head-Fi measured Hiby FC3 recently and to him it measured best so far even surpassing Chord Dave. But when people bought it and compared it against Lotoo Paw S2 then it faired poor in SQ department. Mind you he is all science type guy and measures all his equipment.

Let your own ears be the judge. I almost never read reviews when it comes to audio and only buy gear based on people's personal opinion and popularity.
 
I do remember someone on Head-Fi measured Hiby FC3 recently and to him it measured best so far even surpassing Chord Dave. But when people bought it and compared it against Lotoo Paw S2 then it faired poor in SQ department. Mind you he is all science type guy and measures all his equipment.

Let your own ears be the judge. I almost never read reviews when it comes to audio and only buy gear based on people's personal opinion and popularity.

True, shilling is highly prevalent these days and its difficult to trust commercial reviews. User opinions across various forums seems far more valuable as input
 
True, shilling is highly prevalent these days and its difficult to trust commercial reviews. User opinions across various forums seems far more valuable as input
Honestly even if it is not shilling , its just these things are so subjective , someone may actually like a certain equipment but you may hate it is almost like as variable as food choices and how we order diffeent stuff at same place, having said that measurements and science do have their place but in the end I would agree with Nalin let your ears make the decision .

On a side note this was one of the best stuff I read on this / similar subject from NwAvGuy http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html . In fact later he was banned from head-fi for pointing it lot of shilling and pointing out flaw in shiit designs back in the day. Pretty good read regardless !
 
Honestly even if it is not shilling , its just these things are so subjective , someone may actually like a certain equipment but you may hate it is almost like as variable as food choices and how we order diffeent stuff at same place, having said that measurements and science do have their place but in the end I would agree with Nalin let your ears make the decision .

On a side note this was one of the best stuff I read on this / similar subject from NwAvGuy http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html . In fact later he was banned from head-fi for pointing it lot of shilling and pointing out flaw in shiit designs back in the day. Pretty good read regardless !

No doubts , ears are the best judge. What is bright for one is neutral for other , as we have different tolerances & preferences & with age we lose out hearing the higher frequencies. But with lack of oppurtunities to audition/return majority of the audio gears in India user opinions and reviews are the only way out unless we have someone locally willing to host personally to audition their gears, thanks to Covid that also has gone for a toss now.
 
I understand that sound quality is subjective. I can also understand that every piece of equipment will bring it's own characteristics, which I feel they shouldn't, but then I haven't felt these different synergies that you guys are describing and maybe that will change my mind. I guess not being able to audition stuff easily in India, is why I look towards science more than subjective opinions and reviews as they would help me make a more intelligent choice (something I presume but could be totally wrong). I didn't know what kind of sound I liked, until, thanks to Amarbir, I could audition tens of different IEMs and settled with the RE-1 and after that bought the HD650s because they supposedly sounded similar. I don't yearn to own multiple high end HPs and would like to waste as little money as I can buying audio equipments but that isn't possible without auditioning stuff. Everyone raves about OTL amps being the perfect companion for my 650s but that could be completely wrong for me and I would have no way of knowing that. So I was just trying to see if science can help me bridge that gap, but it seems that might not be possible in the real world. And I can understand that. HD650s themselves are notorious for being musical and forgiving, so who am I to say that amps and dacs shouldn't add any of their characters to the sound chain.
 
Next CanJam is @ London 23rd and 24th October, followed by Shanghai in December (Possibly the first weekend, forgot the dates)
Singapore is possibly on last weekend of March or first week of April 2022.
I attended the Berlin CanJam in 2017 (shifted from Essen to a much more expensive city) Audio Technica impressed everone with their Bluetooth headphones ( forgot the model numbers)
As Nalin suggested, go in a big group of 10-15 people, you will love it.
If anybody is planning for London pre Diwali (don't know the date of Diwali) please let me know..

All of you guys have very valid points. IMHO (well, nobody asked for it...) graphs/ charts etc. don't matter all that much to someone who is just trying to enjoy music.
In fact I'm envious of that guy who loves his 1000XM4 and enjoying his music. But most of us in this thread are suffering from OCDs of various degrees and it's also true during mixing/ mastering (even sometimes during tracking) process the greats of the craft often use eyes instead of ears with great results (which younger ears can appreciate more)
I've seen the process of EQing by 60 plus year legendary producers in frequency ranges they can't hear even @ or >5dB boost ( meaning 65 or more+ 5dB), yet they are so damn experienced with frequencies of various instruments, nothing sounds abnormal with their mixes ( 17.4 kHz is a frequency that we loose the earliest, 15 kHz is where people over 40 struggles, 12 kHz is where 50 plus guys loose)
So in a situation where we can't audition certain product, graphs, FRCs are better than nothing.
However personally I try to avoid reddit discussions and random websites for headphone reviews ( as many people write entire reviews without even trying the headphones once!!)
 
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Save up money and visit Singapore, they host CanJam every year there. This is the easiest way to get your hands on all top level stuff.

If there are enough guys interested here, we can arrange a group trip together for the next event that will happen in 2022.

Probably better than wasting in gears here just to try stuff , also singapore has many stores including jaben , LenmeyourEars? and quite a few others who let you try / demo gear in fact I bought my grados sr60s and Sen px 100 ( now sold ) from singapore afte trying them many years back in singapore as I was hesistent to spend that much money on headphones ( at the start of my audiophile journey ) when I as happy wth my Rs 500 earphones that came with my walkman

Sg is great place for audiophile community and ofc you get canjams too there
 
I am guessing the cheapest return flight to Singapore will be 20k and at least another 20-30k for the stay even if one cheaps out with the accommodation and food.
So this option doesn't work for a budget audiophile like me. Yes, the experience would probably be one of the best, but personally I'd rather spend the 50k in losses, buying and then selling hardware available in India, unless you guys are saying that the price difference for the hardware alone will cover the trip costs, like it does for Dubai and iPhones.
 
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On a side note this was one of the best stuff I read on this / similar subject from NwAvGuy http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html . In fact later he was banned from head-fi for pointing it lot of shilling and pointing out flaw in shiit designs back in the day. Pretty good read regardless !
Just finished reading this and wow, this is fantastic. I think this should be required reading for people who are serious about spending money on audio (and wine :p). What a brilliant, well-written piece. Thanks for sharing!
 
Another typical audiophile problem. Since the Deva is wired balance internally but comes with a 3.5 TRS end which goes to your source's output.
Since it's TRS and all 2.5 balanced male connrectors are TRRS ( pretty obvious why) I swapped the stock cable with 3.5 TRRS in both ends ( the stock one comes with TRRS to the headphone and TRS to the audio source)
Now with DAPs ( tried a M3 Pro) the wire works fine as unbalanced. But in phones ( checked with 2 Samsung and 2 iphones dongled up) it goes crazy, only left ear in some, only right ear in some.
The cable itself is perfectly fine, works with all headphones and DAP but not with phones as source.
IMG_20210728_203821.jpg
BTW, the wire doesn't have any mic in it. Still waiting for the 3.5 female to 2.5 TRRS male connector. But I doubt it will work balanced. Am I doing something wrong?
Can someone please post a link of any single wire with balanced out (2.5/4.4/XLR)
 
Another typical audiophile problem. Since the Deva is wired balance internally but comes with a 3.5 TRS end which goes to your source's output.
Since it's TRS and all 2.5 balanced male connrectors are TRRS ( pretty obvious why) I swapped the stock cable with 3.5 TRRS in both ends ( the stock one comes with TRRS to the headphone and TRS to the audio source)
Now with DAPs ( tried a M3 Pro) the wire works fine as unbalanced. But in phones ( checked with 2 Samsung and 2 iphones dongled up) it goes crazy, only left ear in some, only right ear in some.
The cable itself is perfectly fine, works with all headphones and DAP but not with phones as source.
View attachment 110308
BTW, the wire doesn't have any mic in it. Still waiting for the 3.5 female to 2.5 TRRS male connector. But I doubt it will work balanced. Am I doing something wrong?
Can someone please post a link of any single wire with balanced out (2.5/4.4/XLR)
Because the TRRS ground can be interpreted differently in mobiles.
I use a similar cable for balanced connections with a 2.5 adapter. For unbalanced I use the stock cable.
 
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Just finished reading this and wow, this is fantastic. I think this should be required reading for people who are serious about spending money on audio (and wine :p). What a brilliant, well-written piece. Thanks for sharing!
i still have the oDAC designed and probably made by him with collaboration with someone. bought few chips some 10 years back and found 2 sealed ones new just a few months back :)
 
Just finished reading this and wow, this is fantastic. I think this should be required reading for people who are serious about spending money on audio (and wine :p). What a brilliant, well-written piece. Thanks for sharing!
Glad you liked it , I loved his blog back in the day and he does cover all major headphones and their measurements , also got clip zip due to his post a decade ago and still is one of my fav daps to this day , also he did invent o2 odac etc ( like above poster said ) etc but yeah this is my fav post re subjectivity in audio and a must read imo.
 
Glad you liked it , I loved his blog back in the day and he does cover all major headphones and their measurements , also got clip zip due to his post a decade ago and still is one of my fav daps to this day , also he did invent o2 odac etc ( like above poster said ) etc but yeah this is my fav post re subjectivity in audio and a must read imo.
Have been going through his blog since that question popped up in my head. His posts on Amps and Headphones impedances and efficiency are also very nice with simple information for layman understanding.
 
Another typical audiophile problem. Since the Deva is wired balance internally but comes with a 3.5 TRS end which goes to your source's output.
Since it's TRS and all 2.5 balanced male connrectors are TRRS ( pretty obvious why) I swapped the stock cable with 3.5 TRRS in both ends ( the stock one comes with TRRS to the headphone and TRS to the audio source)
Now with DAPs ( tried a M3 Pro) the wire works fine as unbalanced. But in phones ( checked with 2 Samsung and 2 iphones dongled up) it goes crazy, only left ear in some, only right ear in some.
The cable itself is perfectly fine, works with all headphones and DAP but not with phones as source.
View attachment 110308
BTW, the wire doesn't have any mic in it. Still waiting for the 3.5 female to 2.5 TRRS male connector. But I doubt it will work balanced. Am I doing something wrong?
Can someone please post a link of any single wire with balanced out (2.5/4.4/XLR)
No, It will not work in balanced connection. Though headphone is internally wired for a balanced connection but default cable is single ended (3.5mm TRS) at audio source.
As I can understand you want to try headphones in true balanced mode. We need a balanced out from an amp for it to work in balanced mode (just changing cable or using convertor will not work).
* Single end out from the amp can be used with a convertor or cable to run a balanced headphone.
* Balanced out from the amp should never be used for unbalanced headphones (though some brands do provides convertors but technically it's wrong, may end up destroying the amp).

Mobile phones don't provide balanced audio output, so even if we plug male 3.5 TRRS in some phone it take it as single ended+mic connection and doesn't send both channels signals separately, hence only 1 channel works.
BTW this cable is very good, I guess it's brand name is cablecreations.
 
Glad you liked it , I loved his blog back in the day and he does cover all major headphones and their measurements , also got clip zip due to his post a decade ago and still is one of my fav daps to this day , also he did invent o2 odac etc ( like above poster said ) etc but yeah this is my fav post re subjectivity in audio and a must read imo.
oh yeah, how did i even forget about using the clip zip with custom OS and 16 level eq. good old days, guess age is catching up with me.
used to have odac running my PSB+ NAD combo and clip zip + brainwavz M2 back in 2011-12. simpler days
 
I couldn't describe the situation properly.
I'm not even trying to get a balanced connection yet. I have amps with 4.4 and XLR outs.
The issue is when I'm using a TRRS cable at both end (as in the picture) sound is coming from one driver when used with a phone. However the same wire works fine with DAP in unbalanced mode.
The stock cable has TRRS ( goes into the headphones) and TRS ( goes to the source)
Couldn't try the balanced out of the amps as I'm still waiting for the converter.
And I couldn't find a single ended TRRS to 4.5/ XLR cable anywhere.
Yes, the cable is pretty good and inexpensive, bought from Amazon.de
Wow!! What kind of link is that!!??
oh yeah, how did i even forget about using the clip zip with custom OS and 16 level eq. good old days...
Was it Rockbox? Time just flies..I had a clip plus, what a wonderful small audio player. Did SanDisk kill the Sansa players?
 
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I know about the stock cable its TRRS to TRS, but why you wanna use a different cable (3.5mm TRRS to 3.5mm TRRS) with phone ?
TRS to XLR is available but single ended TRRS to XLR is difficult to find.
hopefully 3.5 female to 2.5 TRRS male connector you're getting should work with amp.
 
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