Car & Bike Ather scooters

I have a nagging question.
125cc, 110cc, 100cc in ICE please compare which EV 2w is equal to its class in ICE. Do include all models in Aether, Ola, TVS, Hero etc.,
Bit confusing to explain to old people. I generally don't bother with cc considering the drive in EV is within the city and not long haul travel.

Not sure why you are taking this so personally. Difference between owning EV vs ICE is exactly what OP asked in #2.

You can easily sell an ICE scooter after 5-6 years of usage and get back a significant fraction of the initial investment.
EV will inevitably have reduced range, and the cost of a new battery will be high - you can rebuild an ICE multiple times + factor in maintenance costs for that money.
Lower resale value of the EV was the point I was making.

desiibond said:

Lets say ICE motor dies after 6 years. Since it is out of warranty, have to pay how much? I can also 'assume' that it will break.

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You already are assuming...
Our Activa has done 1.2 lakh+ km on the same engine.
My OG 390 Duke is at ~80k on the same engine.
Even if the engine blows up, cost of a rebuild is nowhere near that of a battery pack. Hope you understand this simple point.
The only thing I'm actually worried about is ever increasing ethanol content in petrol, which can destroy fuel system and engine.

I found this simple and easy to understand article on cost of ownership ICE vs EV : https://www.businessinsider.in/busi...-vs-a-petrol-scooter/articleshow/89119184.cms

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"The takeaway from this is that while an electric scooter might have a significantly higher upfront cost, it falls drastically the more you ride.

This is purely because of the significantly higher cost of petrol when compared to electricity, on a per kilometre basis.

So, if you are someone who commutes a lot, it might make more sense to opt for an electric scooter. If your daily commute is not high and you do not wish to spend more money upfront, it makes more sense to stick to a petrol scooter."

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That is precisely what I'm saying. Unless you ride a lot, EV is actually more expensive.

However, the more you ride it, the more you wear out the battery. Unlike a phone, you are not upgrading your EV every so often and getting a new battery right?

BUT: EV is the future. If you can live with its limitations, you should definitely switch to it. ICE is really only required for long outstation trips

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?dOuBtFiRe? said:

I have a nagging question.
125cc, 110cc, 100cc in ICE please compare which EV 2w is equal to its class in ICE. Do include all models in Aether, Ola, TVS, Hero etc.,
Bit confusing to explain to old people. I generally don't bother with cc considering the drive in EV is within the city and not long haul travel.

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Usually higher cc = more torque. This is what you can notice in everyday riding, and EV will have lots of torque (acceleration)
Activa 110cc = 8.9 Nm
Activa 125cc = 10.4 Nm
Ather 450X = 26 Nm

For reference KTM 250 Duke = 25 Nm

You can find torque figures in specs and compare that to bikes (scooters have way less torque relatively)

n1r0 said:

Not sure why you are taking this so personally. Difference between owning EV vs ICE is exactly what OP asked in #2.

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Aah. My apologies. Did not see that.

n1r0 said:

You can easily sell an ICE scooter after 5-6 years of usage and get back a significant fraction of the initial investment.

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Given the high cost of new EVs, resale value for Ather scooters is pretty high. If maintained well, One can easily sell a 3-4 year old 450x with very good battery life for 70k to 80k. With Ather protect, if I have a degraded battery, I can get it upgraded and when I sell, I get even better resale value as the battery is of full capacity.

The only low area is when you end up with degraded battery and do not have Ather protect.

But the same applies to ICE as well. An ICE scooter that was not maintained well develops engine issues and this too lowers resale value.

Overall though, at this point of time, there are more takers for used ICE scooters mainly because of constraints around charging infrastructure and comparatively low cost of used ICE scooter in relation to used EV performance scooter. Five years from now, given how more and more are going for EV scooters, this is going to change. Will it flip or not, only time will tell.

n1r0 said:

EV will inevitably have reduced range, and the cost of a new battery will be high - you can rebuild an ICE multiple times + factor in maintenance costs for that money.
Lower resale value of the EV was the point I was making.

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Again wrong. ICE scooters drop mileage really quickly. This has been known since the entry or scooters like Activa. It’s easier to rebuild an EV and get another 8-10 years of life as the only component to change is the battery. Unlike an ICE where you have too many moving parts that undergo wear and tear. Unless you change the engine, you will not get back the reduced mileage due to wear and tear.
So, rebuilding EV is easier and more practical compared to rebuilding so many components from ICE.
It’s also less complicated where you do not have half yearly festival (from 3rd year) of changing parts to keep up quality. Ignore changing and bam, your engine starts to deteriorate.
When you add up the cost of oil change filter plugs and other components , you recover the initial difference faster than you think..
This peace of mind where you do not have to worry about engine and every other component is only in an EV. For atleast 5 years, just ride. The better your ride efficiency is, the longer the quality of battery.

n1r0 said:

You already are assuming...
Our Activa has done 1.2 lakh+ km on the same engine.
My OG 390 Duke is at ~80k on the same engine.
Even if the engine blows up, cost of a rebuild is nowhere near that of a battery pack. Hope you understand this simple point.

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I just said that I can assume that engine will die as well to make a point that you have to stop assuming that battery will die in 3-5 years which is very inaccurate.

n1r0 said:

That is precisely what I'm saying. Unless you ride a lot, EV is actually more expensive.

However, the more you ride it, the more you wear out the battery. Unlike a phone, you are not upgrading your EV every so often and getting a new battery right?

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Partially correct. If usage is low, one can pick an EV like Rizta that is closer to Activa. Though it costs bit less, it has the typical EV performance and comfort of a family scooter. If onroad price of Activa is 1L (thought it was 80k, correct me), a difference of 25k is easily recovered in 3-4 years even if the running is just 5000kms per year. Even with 450x, the amount is recovered in 6 years. Given that the usage is lighter, battery is going to last lot longer. Either way, by the time we reach 10 years, I have saved enough on EV that even a battery change would not make it pricier.

Having moved from Honda Aviator to Pulsar NS 200 and having Ather 450x, I would say

Bike > reliable EV scooter > ICE scooter > EV bike.

This is taking into account:

• Initial cost.
• Running cost per kilometer.
• Service intervals.
• Service cost.
• Ride quality and performance.
• Safety and stability.
• Degradation in engine/battery, cost to replace parts in ICE and battery in EV.
• Long term usage (3years of EV, 4 years of aviator and 9 years of bike).

This is from experience and not from watching youtube videos or reading articles or assumptions like 'battery will die in x years', 'have to replace battery after x years' etc. If still one feels that ICE is better, showing battery as the reason, its okay. Some ICE makers who are not able to adapt to changing industry are clinging on to this point, though it is not a concern at all. Also, these points were valid few years ago when there was no clarity on how long a battery can last. Things changed a lot in past few years. EVs are more affordable now, there is lot of clarity on battery life and health, battery costs are coming down as well. On the other hand, ICE price is going up, petrol price is going up, parts prices are going up. With this said, those who are arguing that ICE is better without even owning an EV, least you can do is to go and talk to those who are using reliable EVs like the TVS iQube, 450X and get your 'FUD' cleared.

There are few quirks with EVs:

• have to remember to charge. Atleast once a month or two, I end up with case where there is very less charge as we forget to charge it for two three days. I drop wife at her schools using bike and keep scooter for charging. This is not a problem if you have dedicated charger at your parking spot. If you have to charge it using portable charger and there is no rain cover for scooter the. rain is major deterrent. It rains for half a year in Bangalore and we time our charges according to clouds in sky. Thankfully, moving to own flat next year and will have dedicated charger.
• These are heavy scooters due to battery. Elders and ladies may find it difficult to move it by hand.
• No center stand for models that have battery pack under foot rest. This makes tyre change really cumbersome.
• Lot fewer service centers in rural areas. Riding to a city just for service does not make any sense at all. Stick to ICE if this is for rural use.
• Initial range anxiety is real. I used to charge my scooter using Ather grid initially but it has been 2+ years since I last used Ather grid charger. We are used to timing our charging as per our needs.

Will try to add anything else that I recollect.

?dOuBtFiRe? said:

I have a nagging question.
125cc, 110cc, 100cc in ICE please compare which EV 2w is equal to its class in ICE. Do include all models in Aether, Ola, TVS, Hero etc.,
Bit confusing to explain to old people. I generally don't bother with cc considering the drive in EV is within the city and not long haul travel.

Click to expand...

Its not a straight forward comparison. Unlike ICE that delivers peak power and torque at specific rpm, an electric motor delivers peak torque from get-go. Most visible difference was when we started getting electric push-pull trains replacing diesel push-pull trains. Electric push-pull train used to pick up speed by the time it left the station, which was not possible at all for diesel powered trains.

450X and Ola S1 Pro are comparable to 200CC bikes like NS 200 and RTR 180.
iQube, Rizta are comparable to 125cc scooters and are actually faster than most ICE scooters, second only to specific models like NTorq that are designed for better acceleration.

psyph3r said:

Video: Ola Showroom Set On Fire In Karnataka By Disgruntled Customer

A 26 year old man has been arrested for allegedly setting fire to an Ola Electric showroom in the southern Indian state of Karnataka over unsatisfactory servicing of a recently-purchased e-scooter, a police official said on Wednesday.

www.ndtv.com

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However funny it was , thank God nobody got injured. Bugger went with Ola fully knowing that it has lot of issues with reliability. Probably person who could not control his horses. Became beta tester, burned his fingers and burned entire showroom.

desiibond said:

Having moved from Honda Aviator to Pulsar NS 200 and having Ather 450x, I would say

Bike > reliable EV scooter > ICE scooter > EV bike.

This is taking into account:

• Initial cost.
• Running cost per kilometer.
• Service intervals.
• Service cost.
• Ride quality and performance.
• Safety and stability.
• Degradation in engine/battery, cost to replace parts in ICE and battery in EV.
• Long term usage (3years of EV, 4 years of aviator and 9 years of bike).

This is from experience and not from watching youtube videos or reading articles or assumptions like 'battery will die in x years', 'have to replace battery after x years' etc. If still one feels that ICE is better, showing battery as the reason, its okay. Some ICE makers who are not able to adapt to changing industry are clinging on to this point, though it is not a concern at all. Also, these points were valid few years ago when there was no clarity on how long a battery can last. Things changed a lot in past few years. EVs are more affordable now, there is lot of clarity on battery life and health, battery costs are coming down as well. On the other hand, ICE price is going up, petrol price is going up, parts prices are going up. With this said, those who are arguing that ICE is better without even owning an EV, least you can do is to go and talk to those who are using reliable EVs like the TVS iQube, 450X and get your 'FUD' cleared.

There are few quirks with EVs:

• have to remember to charge. Atleast once a month or two, I end up with case where there is very less charge as we forget to charge it for two three days. I drop wife at her schools using bike and keep scooter for charging. This is not a problem if you have dedicated charger at your parking spot. If you have to charge it using portable charger and there is no rain cover for scooter the. rain is major deterrent. It rains for half a year in Bangalore and we time our charges according to clouds in sky. Thankfully, moving to own flat next year and will have dedicated charger.
• These are heavy scooters due to battery. Elders and ladies may find it difficult to move it by hand.
• No center stand for models that have battery pack under foot rest. This makes tyre change really cumbersome.
• Lot fewer service centers in rural areas. Riding to a city just for service does not make any sense at all. Stick to ICE if this is for rural use.
• Initial range anxiety is real. I used to charge my scooter using Ather grid initially but it has been 2+ years since I last used Ather grid charger. We are used to timing our charging as per our needs.

Will try to add anything else that I recollect.

Its not a straight forward comparison. Unlike ICE that delivers peak power and torque at specific rpm, an electric motor delivers peak torque from get-go. Most visible difference was when we started getting electric push-pull trains replacing diesel push-pull trains. Electric push-pull train used to pick up speed by the time it left the station, which was not possible at all for diesel powered trains.

450X and Ola S1 Pro are comparable to 200CC bikes like NS 200 and RTR 180.
iQube, Rizta are comparable to 125cc scooters and are actually faster than most ICE scooters, second only to specific models like NTorq that are designed for better acceleration.

Click to expand...

Look, please don't diss the venerable Aviator just because your's had bad mileage.
My Aviator continues to provide about 40+ kmpl even in her 16th year, on rural roads.
The argument against EV 2 wheelers in general, is still that there was a chance for all manufacturers to make provisions for a removable battery, standardise its connectors and implement a plug and play model. This was not done, and here we are, waiting 3-4 hours to charge a scooter. There seem to be no future plans to standardize the batteries, and make them removable.
For folks in cities, where many charging stations are available, EVs are a no brainer. For the other folks who live in small towns such as myself, where the next town is 55 kms away, and a round trip isn't possible on a single charge, we just cannot buy EVs. I know the Rizta provides 120+ kms, however, add in a pillion, some provisions on the footboard, and some elevation changes to the road, and a 110 kms round trip is difficult without recharging.

desiibond said:

However funny it was , thank God nobody got injured. Bugger went with Ola fully knowing that it has lot of issues with reliability. Probably person who could not control his horses. Became beta tester, burned his fingers and burned entire showroom.

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Second time I'm seeing that word in reference to Ola Electric. Care to elaborate?

And i found this


Seems happy. Being on a specialised forum you would think this person was adequately forewarned not to proceed but still went ahead. The only clue why is these were the only options avaliable where he is from. Presumably either these or nothing...

blr_p said:

Second time I'm seeing that word in reference to Ola Electric. Care to elaborate?

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There are dozens of insta reels pretty much every week of disgruntled customers posting videos of Ola service centers, it's littered with dozens of bikes lying around with no resolution. Contrary what Mr.Kilvish Agarwal claims in his shitty keynotes, the end user experience for a lot of buyers has been horrendous. Apart from okinawa and the no name shitty chinese bikes, Ola holds the record for the most number of bikes that have gone up in flames.

The bike was basically designed by a Dutch company named Etergo which Ola acquired and rushed to market without proper testing, it was designed keeping European roads in mind which is why it had that weird suspension in the initial models. They later switched to telescopic forks after dozens of bikes snapped in half due to our world class roads.
Instead of launching a product that was thoroughly tested before market launch like the Ather and Ultraviollette models, they're fixing the problems as and when they appear.

There were a few instances where it also went in reverse in full speed lol.

blr_p said:

Second time I'm seeing that word in reference to Ola Electric. Care to elaborate?

And i found this

Bought an Ola S1 Air in Manali: Ownership review with likes & dislikes | Team-BHP

BHPian AdityaDeane recently shared this with other enthusiasts.SAIR (???) - It is an Urdu term. Its common meanings include Trip, Ride, Pleasure Trip, Spin, Outing, Excursion and many such terms, as per ...

www.team-bhp.com

Seems happy. Being on a specialised forum you would think this person was adequately warned not to proceed but still went ahead. The only clue why is these were the only options avaliable where he is from. Presumably either these or nothing...

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There is always the ever reliable Activa, when EV is not an option.

desiibond said:

There is always the ever reliable Activa, when EV is not an option.

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Yes but like a lot people he seems bitten by this EV bug. Got to have it.

blr_p said:

Yes but like a lot people he seems bitten by this EV bug. Got to have it.

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There are only two EVs that I call reliable and dependable.
1. Ather's 450 series.
2. TVS iQube.

Any EV other than two is toss of a coin, like all those Micromax and Chinese phones from early smartphone days.
It's ironic though that Hero that owns like 40% of Ather makes shitty EVs under Hero brand.

desiibond said:

There are only two EVs that I call reliable and dependable.
1. Ather's 450 series.
2. TVS iQube.

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When did you reach this conclusion?

Sometime this year or earlier

blr_p said:

When did you reach this conclusion?

Sometime this year or earlier

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why? is there anything that can be added to this list?

desiibond said:

why? is there anything that can be added to this list?

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That guy from bhp bought his Ola in Nov '23. Don't know if he asked for advice as his post on the forum starts with the review. Nobody is telling him what you said. Maybe trying to be polite or ignorant.

psyph3r said:

There were a few instances where it also went in reverse in full speed lol.

Another Ola scooter goes into reverse mode in full speed, leaves rider severely injured - ET Auto

India's largest electric scooter maker Ola Electric's cup of woes refuses to ebb. After an incident of fire in Pune that led to a recall and multiple cases of battery drainage, a fresh case of a scooter suffering from a bug and reversing on full speed has surfaced. It left the 65-year-old father...

auto.economictimes.indiatimes.com

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This article is from May 2022 so the info to be wary about Ola was out there for some time now.

See the market share as of Feb '24
1) Current market leader Ola has 41% which they doubled from 21% the year previous. Did they buyout someone. Stunning jump. So many willing beta testers out there mesmerised by this brand?

2) TVS at 17.7%

3) Bajaj Auto at 14.2%

4) Okinawa 13%

5) Hero 12%

6) Ather energy 11%

7) Greaves Electric 3.2%

Don't laugh at that guy who set fire to the shop.

It's not obvious to the general public that the best choices are market positions 2) & 6). Most would take the safe/easier choice and go for 1). Probably explains the repairs backlog they have. Statistically they would also have the most negative comments online.

Must have taken some research and the experience has validated it. No complaints with Ather.

Why are they penultimate in the list?

Is Ather a choice only for tier 1 cities.

blr_p said:

That guy from bhp bought his Ola in Nov '23. Don't know if he asked for advice but nobody is telling him what you said. Maybe trying to be polite or ignorant.

This article is from May 2022 so the info to be wary about Ola was out there for some time now.

See the market share as of Feb '24
1) Current market leader Ola has 41% which they doubled from 20 the year previous. Stunning. So many willing beta testers out there mesmerised by this brand?

2) TVS at 17.7%

3) Bajaj Auto at 14.2%

4) Okinawa 13%

5) Hero 12%

6) Ather energy 11%

7) Greaves Electric 3.2%

Don't laugh at thst guy who set fire to the shop.

It's not obvious to the general public that the best choices are market positions 2) & 6)

Must have taken some research and the experience has validated it. No complaints with Ather.

Why are they penultimate in the list?

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Why do Ola have such high sales numbers? IMO, they are the only performance scooter makers in India that can be purchased irrespective of location. Ather and TVS iQube etc sells scooters only from showrooms while Ola has this book and deliver to home model. Only now they started to setup showrooms in some places. The reliability concerns are still there for Ola and it will take some more time for them to reach stability. Ola's reliability too is toss of a coin. Is it really bad? No, it is getting better as they are ironing out issues. It was 'the bone breaker' in its first few months.

blr_p said:

Is Ather a choice only for tier 1 cities.

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Tier 1 and Tier 2. Ather is expanding as well but they seem to be taking a very cautious approach and ramping up production and service experience. See how thin their network is. This is why most Ather buyers are city dwellers.

Ola on the other hand, you can book it and get it delivered anywhere in India. God only knows how people are getting it serviced. Probably, many are not even thinking of service, treating it like mobile phone.

desiibond said:

Ola on the other hand, you can book it and get it delivered anywhere in India. God only knows how people are getting it serviced.

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That reviewer recently said the closest Ola servicing centre closed down and now the nearest is over a 100km away (!)

How is going to take it there?

desiibond said:

Probably, many are not even thinking of service, treating it like mobile phone.

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Not working, trade it in for some price reduction and get the latest model. Much faster than waiting for service.