A Report on efforts to raise awareness about ISP's Fair Usage Policies (FUP)

[kekerode]

When you talk about the good of the common man, I assume that you are talking about the knowledge sharing aspect of the internet. I guess the gram panchayat wants to get more information to increase their agricultural productivity and not sit in a quorum to watch streaming porn. A few GBs a month is enough for information gathering.

100% correct

But most of people who have problem with FUP are leechers only (torrent, porn, warez etc downloaders and/or uploader)

I suggest that there should be unlimited plans but with high price (at least more than Rs 1.5k) which should put limit on such activities

 

[m-jeri]

....................pron..... pron.....

 

[Gaurish]

When you talk about the good of the common man, I assume that you are talking about the knowledge sharing aspect of the internet. I guess the gram panchayat wants to get more information to increase their agricultural productivity and not sit in a quorum to watch streaming porn. A few GBs a month is enough for information gathering.

The whole idea behind FUP is that they can sell internet connection to more subscribers and ensure bare minimum experience to them. It can happen by throttling the leechers. So I guess you should root for the FUP plans and request for changing the title of the thread.

I don't know why you fail to notice applications like eGovernance,Video conferencing & Tele-medicine, Education,real time weather report for Agriculture, Knowledge Sharing, Google Earth for extensive maps, Hosting in India.

Internet is bit more than p0rn:| Its a tool which has changed the way we communicate in totality. sadly in India, Internet is slow and costly comparison to rest of the world.

I wish for fastest and cheapest internet in our country

 

[manu1991]

When you talk about the good of the common man, I assume that you are talking about the knowledge sharing aspect of the internet. I guess the gram panchayat wants to get more information to increase their agricultural productivity and not sit in a quorum to watch streaming porn. A few GBs a month is enough for information gathering.

The whole idea behind FUP is that they can sell internet connection to more subscribers and ensure bare minimum experience to them. It can happen by throttling the leechers. So I guess you should root for the FUP plans and request for changing the title of the thread.

Have ISP's ever said that they are straining their capacities to supply to more customers and hence need to implement FUP . AFAIK India has one of the lowest internet penetration levels .

Most importantly , its about government having stupid policies like NIXI , where ISP's have to pay a fixed charge / GB . Also not unbundling the local loop . All these policies are distorting incentives and impeding competition .

Case in point , Airtel used to have ridiculous GPRS tariffs , the unlimited plan was for 499 /- . Then Aircel / Docomo etc came with low priced plans and airtel now has a 98 Rs plan with a FUP of 2 GB . A FUP (or data limit if you want to call it) of 2GB is more than sufficient for mobile phones and you dont see people complaining about it .

 

[Renegade]

What is eGovernance? It is a chatroom, a website and a blog. What is there to egovernance that is getting stifled by FUP? How many GBs do we need to do all that?

Video conferencing and Telemedecine - How is the end user getting impacted, unless we want to have a cocktail party in front of our video wall? Are we still talking about FUP and common man or are we now talking about the industry and the companies. I don't think FUP applies to them. You think a doctor will operate over the internet. I thought they had separate links with QoS agreements for that.

Even if they do, consider this. Doc - I am sorry the connection speed has dropped as someone else on a unlimited connection is using his torrent client on the same line. Dont worry its a 4GB file, I will close your heart as soon as its done.

Real time weather report is just few bytes of data flowing through at a certain frequency. How many GBs does that amount to?

Knowledge sharing. Unless you want to share knowledge only through videos.

Google Earth - I think you can increase the cache to prevent loading again.

Hosting in India - Err? Are we still talking about FUP and end users?

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Anyway you now seem to be fleeting away from FUPs. What is the agenda of this discussion thread?

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Have ISP's ever said that they are straining their capacities to supply to more customers and hence need to implement FUP . AFAIK India has one of the lowest internet penetration levels .

As opposed to they coming out with a press release that "this year we will make 4 times more profit by implementing FUP".

If they have to keep building capacities to service their existing greedy customers who want to pay in pennies, I dont think they will be able to increase the penetration. Even if the gov mandates it.

Most importantly , its about government having stupid policies like NIXI , where ISP's have to pay a fixed charge / GB . Also not unbundling the local loop . All these policies are distorting incentives and impeding competition .

Again, are we still discussing FUP here? Should I assume that you are saying that operators are forced to implement FUP because of the Government? So FUP is not the devil.

Case in point , Airtel used to have ridiculous GPRS tariffs , the unlimited plan was for 499 /- . Then Aircel / Docomo etc came with low priced plans and airtel now has a 98 Rs plan with a FUP of 2 GB . A FUP (or data limit if you want to call it) of 2GB is more than sufficient for mobile phones and you dont see people complaining about it .

And this is relevant how? Why is 2GB not sufficient for a PC? In fact I just went to the Airtel site and the unlimited connection is available for 900 pm. It has a throttling of speed at 8GB.

 

[Aces170]

People giving excuses that FUP affects regular users, forget rural people who hardly utilize data intensive application. You stop your leeching, and FUP is not going to affect you in anyways, I had a month where I didn't leech and the usage was under 6gb, this was with casual youtube browsing too.

Regular users are not going to breach FUP to affected by it, I had the chance to look at local cable guy's usage graphs, under 5% of his users were utilizing over 80% of the bandwidth. If your usage does require a lot of legit HD video streaming or the likes, then a lease line is warranted. Don't get me wrong, I am as pissed as the next guy on the FUP, but please dont give examples of India's development stopping due to FUP and crap...

 

[Gaurish]

@Renegade - all these things I listed use internet in some way. and what's my point against FUP is:

* Misleading Consumers, Selling Limited plans as "Unlimited"

* FUP is Hampering growth of internet in india, Instead of ISP decreasing prices and increasing bandwidth. they forcing users to curtail their existing usage. We are going backwards.

FUP make sense for countries with high speed connections with decent FUP limits.But not for india where connections are slower. for example 4mbps with 8GB limit is ridiculous

 

[Aces170]

* Misleading Consumers, Selling Limited plans as "Unlimited"

* FUP is Hampering growth of internet in india, Instead of ISP decreasing prices and increasing bandwidth. they forcing users to curtail their existing usage. We are going backwards.

There is no misleading, the plans are unlimited, just your speed gets capped after a limit.

Prices, are decreasing, bandwidth is increasing. When was the last time in early part of the century, were you able to have a usage of 8gb a month for 500 odd bucks.

Although I agree with the latter part, that 8gb is a little too less for today's usage, but anything over 20gb a month shouts illegal downloads.

FUP is here to stay, unless you are ready to shell big bucks. Dont expect a 100gb monthly data usage for 1000 bucks, its economically not feasible in India atm.

 

[Renegade]

@Renegade - all these things I listed use internet in some way. and what's my point against FUP is:

If you are going to keep repeating your points without reason then I guess I should stop posting.

* Misleading Consumers, Selling Limited plans as "Unlimited"

Are you hallucinating or do I need a eye test? None of the plans listed on Airtel website as unlimited have a download limit. They truly are unlimited. *I check for Mumbai*

* FUP is Hampering growth of internet in india, Instead of ISP decreasing prices and increasing bandwidth. they forcing users to curtail their existing usage. We are going backwards

FUP make sense for countries with high speed connections with decent FUP limits.But not for india where connections are slower. for example 4mbps with 8GB limit is ridiculous.

Can you please define growth? Is there a index in the Human Development Index which includes a internet bandwidth test after the end user has downloaded 100GB in a month. Are we slipping in the global rankings on that index?

We discussed all of the areas that you listed. I dont see at which point does growth get stifled.

That speed (4mbps with 8GB limit) is ridiculous because you are obsessed with filling your HDD with stuff.

 

[Revolution]

OK,I don't need real 1mbps UL @1K.
So,which ISP giving 128kbps BB 5GB FUP @100/- ?
Actually all ISP in India r cheaters & mFckers too...

 

[Gaurish]

Consider this:

Let's assume that we're looking at costs of Rs 17/GB from the international pipes to the user for the large players who buy far more bandwidth - the average discount between STM-1 (155mbit/s) and STM-64 (10 gbit/s) is over 50%.

We look at the FUPs by the companies such as Airtel.

20GB should cost them about Rs 340 + tax.

50GB should cost them about Rs 850 + tax.

Yet, you can not buy either of these options for less than Rs 1,000 at any speed: therefore, the profit margins are about Rs 750 and Rs 950 respectively.

Even if you put in the latest ADSL2+ or VDSL equipment in each building (which could allow speeds of up to 50 mbit/s or more), The purchase price of this equipment works out to about Rs 100-120 per month per customer over 2-3 years (maybe less).

Even if you take in to account any other fees which may arise (establishing points of presence can be expensive), the monthly cost per customer wouldn't exceed a further Rs 200 per month per customer. Therefore, that's still Rs 450 and Rs 650 that I can't seem to account for. In fact, the only way to account for the remaining Rs 450 (or more) is if every single customer actually saturates their connection 24/7 for the rest of the month.

We can also look at the over-usage charges on data-plans at various ISPs: often from Rs 0.4 to Rs 0.8 per MB, which works out to anything from Rs 410 to Rs 820 per GB. Considering that 1GB of traffic costs them well under Rs20, this is daylight robbery!

as you can see, these greedy corporations are making hell of lot windfall profits at expense of of us - the consumers

There is no misleading, the plans are unlimited, just your speed gets capped after a limit.

Since when we have limits on something that is Unlimited? If you want to sell plans this way, don't label them as "Unlimited". I have no problem how bsnl markets its plans, as its clearly stated. where as with Airtel they mislead Innocent customers.why the **** they write --> * - T & C apply instead of giving details like bsnl

When was the last time in early part of the century, were you able to have a usage of 8gb a month for 500 odd bucks..

Still we are far behind that the rest of the world. we rank 63, a country ours like do better than that.

Although I agree with the latter part, that 8gb is a little too less for today's usage, but anything over 20gb a month shouts illegal downloads.

Yes, 20gb/month is enough for 99% normal users. then again, check the cost of getting 20GB bandwidth on a connection, its not affordable. this is the reason, broadband peneration in our country is just 6%:no:

FUP is here to stay, unless you are ready to shell big bucks. Dont expect a 100gb monthly data usage for 1000 bucks, its economically not feasible in India atm

you will get amazed to discover how much bandwidth capacity India has and this greedy trio is sitting on it. About 80% of installed submarine cable capacity is not being used. so there is room for reducing prices

 

[6pack]

wow, people are after downloaders. We leechers who cry foul over fup should stop downloading a lot and shift to lowest possible plan. that way we won't be buying any extra harddisks, no more extra hours of comp staying always on, etc. Impacts would be :-

1- Indian computer dealers wont sell their stuff like new hdd's and other mass storage products off fast. They will get a small drop in their sales figures, but most probably it wont hurt their bottom lines.

2- less bill outgoing towards the isp. good for us. But they will get a hit in profits, but it won't make much of a difference to them. They are milking off customers as it is.

3- lesser monthly power bills. we will save about 300-500 bucks a month. the power company will be sad and happy at same time. Happy cause we electricity hogs now use less power, and sad cause they loose money in the process.

4- No more data hungry users = no incentive from the Govt or isp's to give faster broadband speeds or give better service. So most probably, in a few years we might end up with dialup speeds again for 500 or 800 bucks a month. No data hungry users = less money = isp's will think of milking people more in another way.

So do we make an impact on development of the country? You people who shun us can decide on that.

 

[Gaurish]

That speed (4mbps with 8GB limit) is ridiculous because you are obsessed with filling your HDD with stuff.

wow...are you serious on this? having a 4mbps connection with 8GB limit? atleast my usage is more than that on a 512kbps connection.And No, I don't stream p0rn if you want to know

 

[Renegade]

So do we make an impact on development of the country? You people who shun us can decide on that.

Your post is full of absolute junk.

How much do the sales of HDD (to end users not companies) add to the GDP of our country? I thought all regions of India were struggling with power shortage. If you are happy with paying less to the ISP and they are fine whether they get more from you or not, then your entire point is utter bullshit.

You can add more bullshit to your argument by saying that the bill payment involves banks and with lesser bill, lesser cash will change hands and the turnover of a bank will decrease which will lead to collapse of the indian banking industry and eventually Indian economy.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

wow...are you serious on this? having a 4mbps connection with 8GB limit? atleast my usage is more than that on a 512kbps connection.And No, I don't stream p0rn if you want to know

AFAIK unlimited connection do not have a download limit. They have a speed limit and I was talking only about speed. So you are saying that you are fine with a 512Kbps connection. Great get a FUP which downgrades you to 512 after 8GB.

 

[Aces170]

Still we are far behind that the rest of the world. we rank 63, a country ours like do better than that.Yes,

20gb/month is enough for 99% normal users. then again, check the cost of getting 20GB bandwidth on a connection, its not affordable. this is the reason, broadband peneration in our country is just 6%

you will get amazed to discover how much bandwidth capacity India has and this greedy trio is sitting on it. About 80% of installed submarine cable capacity is not being used. so there is room for reducing prices

1. Last time I checked, we were a developing country, you do know we rank much lower in human development index? You cannot expect a developed country infrastructure in a developing country because err we are developing!!

2. I never said 20Gb is what normal usage is about, I said over 20GB and chances are you are leeching, as I posted earlier all your regular surfing and work can be done under 8gb too. There are people like Bikey etc, who were pretty satisfied with fast/limited connections.

3. Please enlighten me, on how much is India's capacity, and how much is being utilized with some sources please.

@6pack your argument is flawed. You are trying to justify to illegal downloads, it wont hold milk anywhere.

 

[Gannu]

impacts would be :-

1- indian computer dealers wont sell their stuff like new hdd's and other mass storage products off fast. They will get a small drop in their sales figures, but most probably it wont hurt their bottom lines.

3- lesser monthly power bills. We will save about 300-500 bucks a month. The power company will be sad and happy at same time. Happy cause we electricity hogs now use less power, and sad cause they loose money in the process.

So do we make an impact on development of the country? You people who shun us can decide on that.

wtf!

 

[blr_p]

What is the agenda of this discussion thread?

You saved me a lot of typing as when i asked about 'make', you got the idea where i was hinting.

As to why we need better options, the best argument i read was in Vaibhav's petition that was made a yr or two back. It was about the future. The world is increasing bandiwdth at a much faster pace than we are. So the question to ask is not whether we are ok today but how will we fare tomorrow ?

Ten yrs ago would you have thought you'd be admin on a tech forum. The net is crazy when some app comes up it goes critical and then within a yr or two its on everybody's lips and becomes lexicon.

Now if evreybody else abroad has access to cheap & fast connections, chances are you're going to get richer more data heavy apps coming down the pipeline. Whenever capacity is created the human finds a way to fill it with some junk or whatever and call it innovation.

Where will we be in that world, if we do not make steps to at least keep up. I think prices for broadband have been static for at least the last 5 years. In that time my speed has gone from 256kbs to 386kbs whereas cell phone rates steadily touched rock bottom, worldwide. Now in those five years how many more customers did the ISPs add to their bottom line ?

This is what the push is about

 

[Gaurish]

3. Please enlighten me, on how much is India's capacity, and how much is being utilized with some sources please

Okay, let me try

First, here few real world comparisons of Speed in India vs Speeds Globally

1) Youtube - Huge difference

2) Speedtest.net - Average speeds of 34mbps against mere 1.39mbps in India

And now, I quote Forbes report dated Feb, 2010
there is no shortage of submarine bandwidth in India, therefore addition of new capacity will not affect current prices all that much. This is born out from data compiled by TRAI, showing a total capacity of 18.6 Tbps across all existing submarine cables reaching India. A mere 0.5 percent of this capacity was used in 2008.

Source: Forbes India - The Long Arm Of Broadband
See you can see only 0.5% of the capacity being used but still these companies are applying FUPs. here more discussion on this:http://www.techenclave.com/broadband-forum/current-state-broadband-our-country-ruled-160841.html

 

[Renegade]

@blr_p

To counter that argument I would have to think of an application which puts excessive demand on the network which cannot be serviced by current plans. I cannot think of one. Ten years ago I was unable to open yahoo.com and ask the a/s/l of a teenage girl sitting in USA without getting frustrated with the dialup. Now I can do everything that the net has to offer.

From what I can make out from your post, the real issue then is the penetration and access to internet. You need cheap plans and you also need cheap computers and then you need people who are obsessed with the internet.

As for the future, Gaurish will explain to you in detail how much bandwidth we are already sitting on and are therefore ready for the future when it comes.

@Gaurish and probably other touchy downloaders - As I mentioned earlier, I am just playing the Devil's Advocate so don't get offended by anything that I say. Who doesn't love cheap unlimited bandwidth.

 

[blr_p]

Oh i realise we are sitting on a lot of dark fiber so capacity wise, technically speaking isn't an issue, but the million-dollar question is whether it will be affordable or not.