AIIMS becoming 'doctors' factory' for export: Ramadoss

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'Over 60 percent of the AIIMS passouts are going outside India. It's becoming a doctors' factory that is producing talent for foreign countries and not for the poor Indians,' Ramadoss said.

'They pay a few hundred rupees as tuition fee for a whole year as against lakhs of rupees paid by the students studying the same course elsewhere,' the minister told IANS on the sideline of an official function here Tuesday. more

I support Ramadoss if NO OTHER motto is there than explained by him, but why not Sign Degrees with Signed Condition to SERVE in RURAL India for first 5 years and than AIIMS Doctors are free to go/join anywhere they wish.:)
 
Stick said:
but why not Sign Degrees with Signed Condition to SERVER in RURAL India for first 5 years and than AIIMS Doctors are free to go/join anywhere they wish.:)
This should be imposed on all major technical institutions including, but not limited to, AIIMS, IITs and IIMs.
 
You don't know how much effort it takes to become a doctor. A 5.5 yr MBBS course (which is now 6.5 yrs I think).

Add to that a master's degree is a requirement to get anywhere in this field. An MBBS grad or even a diploma after MBBS can never advance beyond assistant professor in his medical career thanks to fscked up MCI(medical council of India) rules.

Give that much of your life and time away and then have someone preach to you on how you should serve your country does not go down very well with me. If that is so, it should be a requirement for all forms of careers.

Comparing a doctor to a s/w engineer, an MBBS grad works for 12 hrs a day on a average and earns 8000-15000 if he's lucky(except in Kerala where things are slightly different). A s/w engineer may work for 6-7 hrs a day effective, can make mistakes and can draw a far decent pay packet. Oh..and did I mention the onsite opportunities? A doctor has to answer exams again like the US MLE to get re-certified due to the lack of a proper understanding with foreign nations. No such thing for other professions.

I don't blame anyone for supporting that fool Ramadoss. They do not have all the facts. Though AIIMS is different from other medical institutions, it still is victim to the petty politics of Ramadoss' ego problems.
 
Our governament has become a bunch of fools who just work for their own gains and never contribute anything to the poor man (maybe some money during elections) And create problems for comman man just feed their egos. - Does he have any answer for this??

The point he has raised does not justify what he is doing.
 
sydras said:
I don't blame anyone for supporting that fool Ramadoss. They do not have all the facts. Though AIIMS is different from other medical institutions, it still is victim to the petty politics of Ramadoss' ego problems.
I fully understand what a person has to go through to become a respected doctor. But doctors must not forget that whatever they paid as tuition fees was not enough for their education, and it is the people of this country who actually pay for their higher education through income taxes. Is expecting an year or two of community service too much in return?

Indeed, this is true for all high-education careers, which is exactly why I included IITs and IIMs too. All these institutions and their students should learn a few things from AFMC and their policies.
 
meh, as much as i hate underpaid doctors, Engineering has become the haven of gold diggers. As someone who actually studied engineering for the love of it , i feel sorry to see so many without the basic aptitude for engineering trying (and worse , suceeding) in becoming engineers , just for the money . I'd hate if everyone started to become doctors purely for the money.

Me , I never became a doctor because i could never hold the responsiblity of a human life in my hands :( , and i respect those who do .
 
delhiboy1000 said:
i dont know whether u r a doc or not; but u have taken a very empathic viewpoint! Kudos to u !

My brother has just completed MBBS. I have seen him go through a lot of misery...the sleepless nights he spent, the amount he studied...and that too to get an MBBS which nobody considers very useful these days. Add to that a year and a half of a miserable internship where you are treated like a second rate apprentice by some (not all) overworked doctors and are made to work two or three 12 hour shifts in a row. At one point, he had no time to eat lunch in between his work.

He is now struggling to get into MD. Unfortunately, there are very very few MD seats as compared to MBBS in India. The MCI likes it this way and they are in connivance with the medical colleges to sell MD seats.

The medical colleges in turn pay the MCI council members and politicians associated with these colleges huge sums of money to get certification for post graduate MD seats. The cycle goes on. The noblest of professions yet again compromised by our babus.
 
Yamaraj said:
I fully understand what a person has to go through to become a respected doctor. But doctors must not forget that whatever they paid as tuition fees was not enough for their education, and it is the people of this country who actually pay for their higher education through income taxes. Is expecting an year or two of community service too much in return?

Indeed, this is true for all high-education careers, which is exactly why I included IITs and IIMs too. All these institutions and their students should learn a few things from AFMC and their policies.

Medical fees are three or four times that of engg fees. I don't have the figures right now but it was like 75K per year for dental and 1.25K for medical.
I don't know about govt colleges though.

Post graduate fees are 4 lakh per year. Again, don't know about govt colleges. But my tirade isn't just restricted to AIIMS.

My bro told me of a case where there was this one poor student who got in by merit hadn't paid his fees for a year. The college, though aware of his financial condition and the fact that it had collects donation to the tune of crores every year (that too only for MBBS seats) still decided to remove him from the college. The other students and seniors disgusted, organized a contribution for that year and every other year therafter and paid his fees in full.

A doctor mostly does community service wherever he goes. It still is one of
the noblest professions and I feel ashamed to see my brother's friends and seniors calling me sir etc. while I know the truth that they are tirelessly sacrificing their life everyday in service of humanity while I'm happily able to spend time blogging and doing whatever I like when I feel like it during my work day.

I get what you are saying about doing community service. The thing is, the no.of doctors coming out are very low and that is the main problem. Add to that a pathetic salary and an exhausting workload from being overworked due to shortage of doctors and medicines(my bro told me when he was doing his internship that docs give a tetanus shot to people with severe illnesses as no antibiotics are avbl in rural areas) in most hospitals and you get this problem.

And the people from these rural areas don't stand a chance to become doctors given the fees and those that do are the generally the first ones to take off to the US etc. as they just want a ticket out of their miserable existence. If you ask me, they should own up and go back to do service to the place they came from as they are most familiar with the problems of their towns but how am I justified in asking them to do so? I have not experienced what they have.
 
@ sydras :man you all your facts right!! you've watchin your bro very closely :D

this is how it goes...atleast in maharashtra which supposedly has the most no of MBBS seats...

You slog it during 12th to get a good score in CET so that u can get into a Govt Medical College...where the fees are abt 6-8k per sem (9 sems in all)...then you work hard to pass every exam (no ATKT) for 4.5 yrs.
Then you work like a fool for 1 year...mostly menial n clerical jobs most of the time(get files...arrange files n similar rubbish) during the so called internship...when you shld actually be learing something useful...
But during the internship all you can think abt is gettin a PG seat...that again is based on a CET....so along with the menial jobs all we do is study...to be able to get a PG seat...this leaves no time to look at the patients and gain practical exp.

Then they give you the MBBS degree (which is pretty useless by itself these days)....then you are expected to work in a rural area without any facilities for a year or pay 1 lac to release the bond :D

Now things being to become crappier...there are like 500 PG seats for all faculties in Maharashtra and this has 50% reservation....and for these 500 seats over 6000 students apply each year...
And with each passing year the no of students appplying increases....so imagine the possibility of gettin a PG seat if you belong to the open category...

The problem is the MCI n Govt dont want to increase the no of PG seats...infact during the past few years the no of PG seats has gone down...

So what happens is there are loads of MBBS docs' (most usually dont know jack...coz the course reality is like that)....and very few PGs (these guys get to learn n do the real stuff..)
And the Govt n ppl cry abt the lack of quality docs available....i mean if a MBBS student doesnt have any PG opportunities how is he/she goin to gain exp and be able to serve the ppl?? If you arent lettin enuf ppl gain exp and learn there are goin to be problems....

So whatever few PG students are there in Govt hosp are over worked like crazy....i have seen residents go without changing clothes or having a bath for days...barely having time to eat a meal....and the hostels they stay in are infested with rats...crockroches...flies etc...
i mean no one would live in such filthy conditions!! but the PG students do and get a salary of 12k!!!

And a PG course lasts for 3 yrs min....there are no pay increaments.

And now the Govt expects us to work in the rural areas for 3 years or pay 15 lacs after 3 years of PG...

Is this fair??
Docs are made to work like bonded labourers literally during the PG years (i am not kidding)....there are no incentives...
No one comes looking for us except patients....we dont have any campus selections with fat pay packets....

And we try to apply for higher studies we are made to jump thru hoops like the USMLE ( a 4 part exam) etc by all countries....and to beat all this when you get a foreign degree the MCI doesnt even recgonise it!!

so we are stuck between the deep sea and the devil....

Everyone passes the MBBS exam....but very few get a PG seat...so what does a MBBS passout do?

study all over again for another year for the PG entrance exam (its only once a year)...and if you dont succeed keep trying...it sometimes takes ppl 2-3 yrs to find a PG seat after MBBS!!!

the other option is to take up a job at a hosp which pays not more than 10-12k...and there is no scope for pay increments or anything cause you are just MBBS!! and today everyone wants a specialist....
Bottom line is who can survive with a salary which maxes out at 10-12k???

If the Govt gives incentives like being able to pursue higher education...good salary...good working conditions...why wont docs work anywhere??

But the Govt is too lazy to think abt all such things....simples facts are no higher education means lack of no of specialists..
 
Wraith..you hit the nail on the head. I was not able to reply with details and figures as I am not a doctor but you put down the situation exactly like it is.

Also, just want to say, all you young people out there trying for an MBBS, keep in mind that the next 5 yrs (pass % in MBBS is 50% and is darned hard to get esp in 1st year..try getting it for 5 yrs) + 1.5 yrs(internship - you will have to slog this one out) + 3 years (that too if you get MD on first attempt) of your live are gone. You would be better off in jail. You will watch all your friends finish their degrees, get a job, get married and settled etc in front of your eyes.

You may get married but you will not have a good social life and if you are not emotionally strong, you will be a nervous wreck who feels he signed his life away by getting into this field. Even after you get an MD, you will be at the mercy of an endless stream of patients and can never really enjoy the money you make in your life.

You know what all doctors really want. They tell me...a good night's sleep. That's all they crave for and that's what they do when they go on a vacation.
 
^^ heaven forbid if some ailing patient dies - then doctors are easy scape goats to be beaten black and blue and their hospitals/ nursing homes vandalized for something which is not their fault.

u ppl lead a life on a swords edge!!
 
good points raised there vy sydras and wraith.

Its hell of a life if you become a doctor, if you go out in market to purchase something people say you are a doctor whats the problem. While you charge the patient, they say we are not good earning and you are a doctor you will get some other rich patients which we never get :P.

Anyways lets compare the scenario :
An US grad after passing out from university MD degree(its called MD but still its equivalent to MBBS) takes a qualifying or licensing exams and then is able to either do PG or join service.

The kind of job they are elligible to get is enormous, anything from clinician to assistant to many other research jobs too.

The pay packages are really good as per their own standards. and as they go to remote places the packages gets more attractive. And in clinics they are supposed to see only patients and take care of them.

If you are lucky enough to secure a PG seat its just money raining even if you dont sweat a little.

Imagine 200k US$ package per annum, vacations twice a year totalling 3 weeks accumulative, you only see 25 patients a day not more, once a week emergency call and one in every 4/6 sundays emergency call.

Now lets see Indian scenario :

First and foremost you serve a Personal Bond to government to serve the rural area for requisite period (1-5 years according to conditions and state).

Then you live in fear of passing out by grace of shoddy teachers and university.

After you obtain an MBBS degree, you are courageous and rebeleous enough to serve the needy persons you go to commissionarate office to get he job.

Instead of giving you the place of your desire they throw you to a place which is difficult to access by raod.

They expect you to remain present in the PHC and do the duties.
The duties include serve the higher ranked officers (not medical but administrative like DDO, Deputy Collector, Collector, DM).
You are responsible for work of support staff of PHC including nurses, health workers, servants, ward boys, drivers.
You have to fullfill the targets of various state sponsored schemes like malaria control, tb control, family planning, make and maintain the register.
You need to frequent the Headquarters thrice in a week to attend the meetings with higher babus, in jeep / ambulance without two wheels.

Afterall this at the end of month you are paid a princely 15k rupees.

If you survive this torture then you can exmine the patients.

And access to you as cheap as hitting a stray animal with a stick, people comein your office without knocking, without appointments.

Now you are not that adventourous and go for PG, if yuo are lucky enough and get a seat within first trial get yourself prepared for the biggest torture of the life.

The residency system is really painfull to complete. You are responsible for everything happening in wards, you dont get time to brush, bath, eat, sleep.

I remember taking baths twice a week during my first year eventhough being in relatively lighter loaded branch like ENT. while people in Orthopedics and Surgery have history not taken bath for 1 month altogether.

During emergency days you are on your feet for almost 48 hours at a stretch.

With so much diffficulties and with a big amount luck when you pass out from PG, you have two choices join government (little respite here as specialists are placed in little better placed centres) or go on your own.

the salaries do not improve much just upto 20k in beginning.

If you join government you get reprimanded by government for doing your job sincerely. (Yes its a stark truth)

Here is a true story:
One of my friend was working in a district hospital as a gynecologist, during the 2002 post godhra riots he was deputed to a refugee camp in Ahmedabad City.

The camp was in high risk area, there was a case of delivery while he was stationed there, to the best of his abilities he conducted the delivery and patient and the newborn were well taken care off and happy.

After his deputation was over he was called by Commissioner of Health, Gujarat State and was reprimanded for not conducting his duties (horrible!), he was blasted why did he conduct the delivery and he should have instead send the patient to the medical college associated hospital. (imagine a situation now if patient is transferred to a bigger referral hospital and during transit some complication arises) then again the doctor is a scapegoat and fired immediately.

very next week he resigned from the job and started his own private practice he is well settled now ( A happy blessing in disguise).

So working with a double edged sword over you head is really painfull.

Thats why people head west wards.

Mr. Ramadoss if you read this better make such arrangements that a qualified doctor can deliver better care to INdian Citizen. In trying to take over the premier health institution of the country rather egoistically you are forgettting the basic hippocratic oath of doctors.

IMO this is a saga of dirty Congress politics which is being thrusted upon us the same was the control over IIM saga is running so is the case with AIIMS.

when An IIM-A grad lends an offshore jobs with multimillion dollors job its flashed everywhere as the success of Indian Economy. While an AIIMS grad goes for better prospect to abroad he is cursed.

Both are financed by people of india.

God bless my country from this dirty politicians.
 
Imagine 200k US$ package per annum, vacations twice a year totalling 3 weeks accumulative, you only see 25 patients a day not more, once a week emergency call and one in every 4/6 sundays emergency call.

Only if you are a specialist ie PG, a MD after the internship is on approx 100k or what GP makes. Expect to do you internship again as the US does not recognise that of other countries. I'm talking NY rates here, expect its similar on the west coast and possibly lower in between.

During residency (few years depending on the speciality), i was making more in the US fresh out of college as a techie than a cousin that started interning over there. After living in the US, i'm under the impression its only the doctors that make the big bucks there (that too after several years, break even after 12 yrs) any other profession is not very different in terms of relative pay. I don't blame ppl for trying to go there in droves..so much so that the AMA has stipulated that, on completion of your residency, if you are a foreigner you will spend 4 yrs in an under-served area or return back to your country for 2 (if you are foreign educated). Which again most would prefer to come back for a cpl of yrs on vac and then return back to the US, instead of serving the 4 in a god forsaken place.
 
medpal said:
and as they go to remote places the packages gets more attractive. And in clinics they are supposed to see only patients and take care of them.

True. My uncle was offered double or triple the salary to go to North/South Dakota(I don't remember which) in the US as it is a cold place and remote also. Now why doesn't the govt do something like that out here....wait I could just hear the laughter arising from that statement. There are no medicines even reaching the rural areas in India.
From what I hear, doctors rely on the placebo effect to get patients well...oh and I think it's a saline(salt water I believe) shot(and not tetanus as my bro was pointing out) that is given to cure illnesses.
Did I mention that many times, the docs are beaten up in these areas if the relatives of a patient can't understand why the patient has died? But to be honest, this kind of thing could happen anywhere. Try working under those conditions people.
 
^^ i cant agree more with you!!

I mean as doctors....pay keep sayin "you touch a patient and charge 500 bucks" and stuff like that...even though the person sayin it might say it as the joke...he/she proabably has no idea what a doc has to go thru to reach that stage!!

Only a big shot consultant can charge that much....not all docs are that lucky to reach that stage...

During my internship i have seen what the residents have to go thru during their duties....its a case of being over worked and underpaid!!

A resident has to started his rounds at 6 am even on a normal day....cause of the sheer no of patients in the ward...the doc to patient ratio in govt hosp is just pathetic...

During the weekly emergency days....i cant even think of a way of how to write all that happens!! Like medpal said the resident is on his feet for almost 48 hrs!! You barely get to eat or drink...forget takin a break...

The sheer no of patients coming to govt hosp is enromous...you shld see the crowds in govt hosp opds!!

IIM and IIT exams are covered by news channels....their awesome campuses...classrooms....etc are covered in detail!!

Has anyone spared a thought for the various medical entrace exams?? Has anyone seen the pathetic living conditions that the residents have to live in??
If they showed the govt hostels on TV you'd be shocked to see the down right pathetic and unhuman living conditions. The hostel rooms are no better than slums!!
To top this residents fall prey to malaria...dengue etc living in such horrible conditions..

How would expect a person living in such conditions to give his 100%??

Is the govt is concerned abt all this?? it surely isnt!! And as a result the whole nation suffers...

And as for Mr Ramadoss...he doesnt know jack abt the living and working standards of doctors!!

Its all hunky dory sitting in an AC cabin and passing comments like AIIMS has become a factory and crap!!

Give us better working conditions....make our salaries on par with others...and why wouldnt we stay in our own country???
 
this thread was a great insight to all you folks lives .. kudus to you guys. my respect has increased a hundred fold. had no idea about a lot of things.
 
^^ Exactly, my neighbour was doing MBBS but never knew life was so hard for you folks. hats off ppl..
 
Yamaraj said:
Indeed, this is true for all high-education careers, which is exactly why I included IITs and IIMs too. All these institutions and their students should learn a few things from AFMC and their policies.

you mean people not from iit's and iim's can run off to the US?

ps. that ramadoss is an idiot
 
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