Apple introduces over-ear AirPods Max for Rs 59,900
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EQ is the only answer for an Audiophile, even with the most expensive gear I am seeing people are still not happy and are using EQ to alter the sound.
EQ is something i don’t wanna uses. gone are the days when we used to play with music match jukebox eq settings. i don’t have time to keep changing the eq settings for different songs.
to me it seems from the initial reviews is that the sound quality is not that great. convince of using part is already checked by airpods pro.
being very heavy is also something i wouldn’t prefer.
ps: i am comparing this with hd6xx on fulla schit.
Well I am using EQ in my dac/amp to tame the aggressive nature of Etymotics. It's just a 1 time change and the device remembers it on boot up. It's more like tuning the sound signature. But not every iem responds to EQ very well, for that it also needs technical chops.
Regarding the early reviews I don't think people who will buy these are looking for very good sound quality, that crowd is only 5% of the potential buyers.
No offence to anyone, but I do not trust the headphones subreddit.
People there make huge posts on EQing headphones without even knowing the absolute basics of EQ.
For example most of the experts don't know the meaning of high/ low pass, ducking, shelves, Q values and similar rudimentary things of audio engineering.
It takes years to master the art.
Spotify forces engineers to use -14dB LUFS at master chain with -1dB TP at most. If your band exceeds the -14dB LUFS, they force you to limit the true peak value of -2dB....Imagine a full 5/6 member rock/ metal band with a complete drum kit, distorted guitars, screaming vocals with target LUFS of -14dB!!
When this is the standard, how on earth can someone judge the quality of headphones/ earphones with Spotify!!??
The Spotify EQ!! How do you know if they are adding a compressor or not if you change some values? You cannot even change the Q value around a particular frequency!!
Moreover if a headphone or IEM needs EQ to sound balanced, what's the point of buying a good/ bad one? In theory we can change the sound of any pair of headphones/ speakers to something more expensive ( Sonarwork Reference SW was built for this purpose to check mixes in studio) But in practice that never really works.
Please understand I have no intention of bashing Apple. I don't know much about technicalities of wireless audio. But I do know the airpod Pros don't sound natural at all.
For me judging quality is a very simple process of 2 steps
1. Listen to a song that I've mixed myself... directly from the DAW's master out-that's for neutrality ( as I am fully aware of the original as I mixed it myself) as I'm not using any external SW which may change the output.
2. Listen to some nicely mastered popular music ( mostly Steely Dan stuff as the mastering is top notch) to understand the timbre, soundstage etc.
Airpod Pros failed miserably in both tests. But it's not only Apple, almost all wireless headphones I've heard distort sound...some more ( XM4 absolutely crazy amount, Airpod Pros a little less possibly, Sennheiser's Momentum TWS/ PXC 550 a lot less)
Now please tell me if I'm not following common logic and basics of audio engineering.
If you're using Ety ER4 and EQing them, you don't like neutral IEMs or using badly ripped or produced music.
If it's ER4SR, I do understand...but that's how live rock music on stage sounds ( piercing), but ER4XR ( though described as extended range) does have slightly toned down treble for normal listeners.
I still love the Etys, best example of what a properly tuned dynamic driver can do. That's the bass I enjoy most, extremely fast with a beautiful lean mid bass which never ever destroys the vocals ( male vocals)
Buddy, if you ever play any instrument on stage without earphones, you will realise why musicians ( not electronic music) don't care about bass in their music. I am playing bass for more than 2 decades in small bands, being able to listen to all the notes live very recently (after being able to afford a pair of customs) with metal bands.
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rdst_1
Juggernaut
The problem with this line of thinking is, that sound quality is very very subjective. For example, I bought HD 25 on your recommendation. I want to say that they are exactly what you told they would be. And still, frankly speaking, I don't like them one bit.
What I am trying to say is that one can measure all parameters and design a very accurate piece of equipment on the basics of audio engineering, but that doesn't mean that everyone will like that type of sound signature.
Whenever someone who is new to audio world asks me which headphone/IEM to buy, the first thing I ask them is to educate themselves on the type of sound signature they like. And then try and audition as many as they can from the devices offering that sound signature and then buy one which makes them happy.
Sound signature choice is so subjective to an individual's tastes that I don't even bat an eyelid when someone says that something costing 500-1000 bucks sounds better to them than something costing 25-50k. It is completely alright they feel this way and one should never discount anyone's personal choice or try to impose one's own choice on them as I have seen many people do, including you, who thinks that only the sound signature you like is the correct one and everything else is garbage. I know you are very passionate about audio production and hence the way you say what you say. But frankly, someone's trash is someone's else's gold is perfect when it comes to headphones/IEMs and other audio reproduction equipment.
As someone raised a point about EQ, again it would be good to know the intricacies, but even if I don't, I can still choose an EQ preset and see whether I like it or not. And if I do, then it is perfectly fine if I use an EQ, even if I don't know what goes in the background. For example, ever since I first used it, I always use the Rock EQ preset with my HD650s.
For the HD25, I used the DTS 3D surround feature of my phone because it makes them sound better to me. And that is the most important thing, how they sound to me. Not how they score on the audio engineering specifications.
True, many people don't like Grado, HD25 like sound. But was my description inaccurate?
My measurement suggestions was to assess a headphone easily and quickly without going into FRCs.
It is perfectly fine not to like a true representation of sound ( if you're not producing music yourself)
Harman target curve is not a flat one, the 2013 version had perfect lower frequency loudness ratio, but the later ones have too much low end emphasis with a dark sound. Millions love it, I don't.
I'm pretty sure you will love Sundara ( a definite upgrade over HD 650/600, but not a major departure from sound signature)
HD25 is actually a studio/ outdoor monitor, which the DJs brought into people's attention.
Drummers love them for the sharp transients...if you listen very carefully, it can pick up snare ghost notes even in a fully mixed song.
If you visit a studio you will inevitably see at least one pair...they're used everywhere for drum replacements ( after the SS Trigger treatment) specially in rock/ metal music.
Keep them buddy, despite the apparent filmsy look, they will easily last for 3-4 decades, you can change each and every component. A lot of care was given during it's creation.
The only headphones Sennheiser often repairs for free after 2 years.
My measurement suggestions was to assess a headphone easily and quickly without going into FRCs.
It is perfectly fine not to like a true representation of sound ( if you're not producing music yourself)
Harman target curve is not a flat one, the 2013 version had perfect lower frequency loudness ratio, but the later ones have too much low end emphasis with a dark sound. Millions love it, I don't.
I'm pretty sure you will love Sundara ( a definite upgrade over HD 650/600, but not a major departure from sound signature)
HD25 is actually a studio/ outdoor monitor, which the DJs brought into people's attention.
Drummers love them for the sharp transients...if you listen very carefully, it can pick up snare ghost notes even in a fully mixed song.
If you visit a studio you will inevitably see at least one pair...they're used everywhere for drum replacements ( after the SS Trigger treatment) specially in rock/ metal music.
Keep them buddy, despite the apparent filmsy look, they will easily last for 3-4 decades, you can change each and every component. A lot of care was given during it's creation.
The only headphones Sennheiser often repairs for free after 2 years.
rdst_1
Juggernaut
Oh I am definitely keeping them. And I did say in my long post above that they were exactly as you had described them.
But I was only trying to say that there are a lot of things which are very subjective in life and the sound signature one likes is one of them.
I have so many analogies for this as well. For example, there are many restaurants these days that deny to serve ketchup. Now I understand their POV, which is very similar to yours' when it comes audio reproduction. They want that their preparation and recipe doesn't get muddled due to the taste of ketchup. However, it is equally alright, that after trying their way, I still want to use ketchup on my Pizza/Noodles because that's they way I like it. People should be open to try their way but even they should be open to people not liking their way after they try it.
Beautiful analogy mate!! Perfect!! BTW, what's the deal with following a member here in TE?
Some people have started following me... please be cautious, I'm a certified crazy person.
If it's audio/ medicine...fine, but I know nothing about tech!!
Some people have started following me... please be cautious, I'm a certified crazy person.
If it's audio/ medicine...fine, but I know nothing about tech!!
I am using ER2XR it's little brother, single DD driver unlike BA on the ER4. It has a modest +2db sub bass boost, along with DD texture bass. Timbre is better then ER4 according to Crinacle because it does not suffer from BA timbre that can make it sound artificial and plastiky. I actually like the Diffuse Field Target curve Etymotic is following, it is close to my preference. It's just that my dac/amp also have little analytical signature being equipped with ESS dac. Etymotics needs a warm source to shine along with redbook files. For normal streaming services Diffuse Field Target curve can sound little harsh.
May I know which pair of customs are you using?
Some low end 64audio 3 driver set up. They usually keep on changing their model numbers slightly..don't remember the exact model, A3 possibly. It's old now, but still isolates pretty well.
The Etys I had for the longest time were ER4P. I meant to write what properly tuned BA drivers can do in terms of coherence and speed...not dynamic drivers of course...
AFAI can remember, timbre of 4P was not bad, the 4SR and XR, not really remember the exact sound, pretty similar to 4P, but it's audio memory, I may be wrong also...don't have anything now with me, but the 4P is there back home.
Isolation was tremendous in all of them but the 4P goes really shrill in live stage situations.
Yes, I also prefer DFT over Harman..yes ESS Sabre DACs have a sandpaper like quality to them. With AKM gone..that's the only option, but the newer ESS possibly sound warmer. M3 Pro has a warm sound.
Good to know that young people are still ripping CDs!!
The Etys I had for the longest time were ER4P. I meant to write what properly tuned BA drivers can do in terms of coherence and speed...not dynamic drivers of course...
AFAI can remember, timbre of 4P was not bad, the 4SR and XR, not really remember the exact sound, pretty similar to 4P, but it's audio memory, I may be wrong also...don't have anything now with me, but the 4P is there back home.
Isolation was tremendous in all of them but the 4P goes really shrill in live stage situations.
Yes, I also prefer DFT over Harman..yes ESS Sabre DACs have a sandpaper like quality to them. With AKM gone..that's the only option, but the newer ESS possibly sound warmer. M3 Pro has a warm sound.
Good to know that young people are still ripping CDs!!
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Ravikumar1996
Apprentice
I have never purchased an Apple Product till date
Apple products are costly but they have created the brand in the market and the quality we can not compare with any other products.
Apple products are costly but they have created the brand in the market and the quality we can not compare with any other products.
Some early impressions from the review god of audio world, here
@red dragon
AKM is still rolling and in-fact Etymotic have released a wireless adapter for the lineup with AKM dac.
@red dragon
AKM is still rolling and in-fact Etymotic have released a wireless adapter for the lineup with AKM dac.
AKM factory has been burnt down to ground. These are previous stocks.
www.audioholics.com
If the APM sounds similar to DT770 ( I didn't buy them, the store happily refunded in full as there's a huge demand for this) or even M40X..I would say Apple did a fantastic job!!
Name one wireless headphone ( except the Grado, but it's open back) that sounds close to DT770!!
I tried almost all the major ones and none sounded even close to DT770 ( a sound I'm not exactly very fond of but very very familiar)
Let's take an example...a well mastered song that everyone is familiar with...Do It Again..Steely Dan..not from Spotify, but a CD rip to normal 16 bit FLAC.
Listen to it in your phone/ computer with inbuilt DAC amp with M40X/ DT770 ( use a cheap amp in low gain if the phone can't power the DT770 250 ohms)
Now listen to it again with 1000XM4...the difference will be day and night.
Now imagine a wireless can ( APM in this context) sounding like the M40X/ DT770...that's phenomenal in my book!!
If the review is true, Apple has done a fantastic job!!
Fire Destroys AKM Audio Chip Factory: Can 2020 Get Any Worse?
An inferno that blazed for three straight days devastated the AKM semiconductor factory in Nobeoka City, Japan. Read on to learn how this will this affect audio products from your favorite manufacturers.
www.audioholics.com
Name one wireless headphone ( except the Grado, but it's open back) that sounds close to DT770!!
I tried almost all the major ones and none sounded even close to DT770 ( a sound I'm not exactly very fond of but very very familiar)
Let's take an example...a well mastered song that everyone is familiar with...Do It Again..Steely Dan..not from Spotify, but a CD rip to normal 16 bit FLAC.
Listen to it in your phone/ computer with inbuilt DAC amp with M40X/ DT770 ( use a cheap amp in low gain if the phone can't power the DT770 250 ohms)
Now listen to it again with 1000XM4...the difference will be day and night.
Now imagine a wireless can ( APM in this context) sounding like the M40X/ DT770...that's phenomenal in my book!!
If the review is true, Apple has done a fantastic job!!
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Yes definitely, considering how good can a decent $100 closed back headphone sound is no easy feat. Beyond that law of diminishing return kicks in and the sound quality difference stars to minimise. For a normal consumer that in itself is enough who doesn't care about sound that much let alone audiophile.
Listen to this guy, he sounds excited for sure.
Listen to this guy, he sounds excited for sure.
Fair points but big Ifs. Assuming that there are no biases is a big assumption which hardly holds true. A lot of paid reviews/promotions/fight to get subscribers just by jumping on the hype train is the most common formula for success of youtube channels nowadaysAKM factory has been burnt down to ground. These are previous stocks.
If the APM sounds similar to DT770 ( I didn't buy them, the store happily refunded in full as there's a huge demand for this) or even M40X..I would say Apple did a fantastic job!!Fire Destroys AKM Audio Chip Factory: Can 2020 Get Any Worse?
An inferno that blazed for three straight days devastated the AKM semiconductor factory in Nobeoka City, Japan. Read on to learn how this will this affect audio products from your favorite manufacturers.
Name one wireless headphone ( except the Grado, but it's open back) that sounds close to DT770!!
I tried almost all the major ones and none sounded even close to DT770 ( a sound I'm not exactly very fond of but very very familiar)
Let's take an example...a well mastered song that everyone is familiar with...Do It Again..Steely Dan..not from Spotify, but a CD rip to normal 16 bit FLAC.
Listen to it in your phone/ computer with inbuilt DAC amp with M40X/ DT770 ( use a cheap amp in low gain if the phone can't power the DT770 250 ohms)
Now listen to it again with 1000XM4...the difference will be day and night.
Now imagine a wireless can ( APM in this context) sounding like the M40X/ DT770...that's phenomenal in my book!!
If the review is true, Apple has done a fantastic job!!
Yes, I'm totally with you on this. Though I've not heard it myself, I simply can't believe a wireless headphone can sound like DT770 yet.
I'm fully aware of Apple's previous association with Fostex etc. but I'm not yet fully convinced with Crinacle's measurement methods specially when it comes to wireless audio.
Yes, I do understand FRC with speakers and to some way wired headphones, but with wireless audio it's not that easy.
Even the retired grandpa of audiophile community and king of measurement himself started to doubt his own graphs before retirement.
I can really go deep with technicalities with measurements, but no conventional audio engineering textbook is published for wireless audio yet and I won't comment on something that I don't understand / can't comprehend to a reasonable level.
This product is interesting for audio consumption. But I am not much interested in consumption only. For me a good headphone is both enjoyable for casual listening and usable as a precise tool for studio.
I have gladly paid almost triple this amount on Focal headphones ( as they can be used for both)
IMHO, it's not very wise to trust audiophiles' review on headphones. They just don't understand / refuse to understand the physical properties of audio( audio engineering) and tend to focus on the psychoaural aspect of sound (primary auditory cortex area A1 of our temporal lobes...what we call perception of sound quality, it's called Tonotopic mapping) which is a complex grey area.
I'm fully aware of Apple's previous association with Fostex etc. but I'm not yet fully convinced with Crinacle's measurement methods specially when it comes to wireless audio.
Yes, I do understand FRC with speakers and to some way wired headphones, but with wireless audio it's not that easy.
Even the retired grandpa of audiophile community and king of measurement himself started to doubt his own graphs before retirement.
I can really go deep with technicalities with measurements, but no conventional audio engineering textbook is published for wireless audio yet and I won't comment on something that I don't understand / can't comprehend to a reasonable level.
This product is interesting for audio consumption. But I am not much interested in consumption only. For me a good headphone is both enjoyable for casual listening and usable as a precise tool for studio.
I have gladly paid almost triple this amount on Focal headphones ( as they can be used for both)
IMHO, it's not very wise to trust audiophiles' review on headphones. They just don't understand / refuse to understand the physical properties of audio( audio engineering) and tend to focus on the psychoaural aspect of sound (primary auditory cortex area A1 of our temporal lobes...what we call perception of sound quality, it's called Tonotopic mapping) which is a complex grey area.
Damn, i didn't know that AKM made everything in only 1 factory. I guess ESS will take up more ordersAKM factory has been burnt down to ground. These are previous stocks.
Fire Destroys AKM Audio Chip Factory: Can 2020 Get Any Worse?
An inferno that blazed for three straight days devastated the AKM semiconductor factory in Nobeoka City, Japan. Read on to learn how this will this affect audio products from your favorite manufacturers.
rdst_1
Juggernaut
I feel, that there are just too many factors in play when it comes to wireless audio. I used a friend's PXC 550 today and it doesn't support APTx HD. Now even that would have some consequence on the sound quality. I liked them but they had very low volume for my liking as well as not enough clarity for songs in which a lot is going on. Didn't like the way it was handling drums and bass in general. However, I did like them over the XM3 from the faint recollection I have of them when I had auditioned them for 10 minutes. Of course, a proper A-B comparison test would be better as I had heard the XM3 long ago.
I'll stick to wired stuff for now.
I'll stick to wired stuff for now.
Can somebody tell me why/how camera industry ( specially Sony) is suffering from this AKM tragedy?
On topic: I completely forgot about one superb wireless headphones..closed back but no ANC..the Drop Panda (THX)
It's possibly the best sounding wireless headphone I ever tried.
Unfortunately I managed to break it ( please don't ask how) within a week.
This is THE wireless headphone to beat in my book.
Anybody looking to buy wireless headphones, should consider this ( difficult to source, out of stock or very long waiting period at least in Europe, anything from the drop.com is a PITA outside US)
It's the same with all high quality wireless headphones, as the drivers are less efficient ( XM4 goes loud because of compensatory gain of 8:1 compression and obvious cheap drivers fed by cheaper DAC and an obnoxious warm sounding amp)
PXC 550 handling bass poorly compared to XM4!! That's interesting!! 550 has a huge obnoxious peak at lower treble, but the bass is not so bad, slow for sure, but not XM4 level slow ( the entire tuning of 1000XM4 is strange and very poorly implemented in mid bass, that crazy ass mid bass distorts even the podcast vocals considerably) You can record yourself talking and listen to it with XM4, you won't recognise your own voice. If you like that kind of tuning XM4 will be perfect for you.
It's the only headphone I know of with this kind of timbre. A piccolo often sounds like horn.
If you listen to something with a loud brass section ( Hans Zimmer type soundtracks) it's impossible to distinguish the trumpet, tuba and trombones. It will make a thick syrupy sound with zero clarity.
I can make the HD600 almost similar to that. Load a wav file in Presonus Studio one..add the followings in the master chain in the same order
1.U-he Presswork or Fab filter pro C2
Set the ratio to 8:1, with a fast attack and slow release ( don't remember exact values)
Keep the compensation gain untouched
2. U-he Satin or Steven Slate's tape emulator, take any preset with the word analog in it ( yes, it's this crude)
3. Slap in an EQ (Pro Q2) make a huge 4dB bump with a wide Q around 200-400 Hz, now Sony's logic.. people thought we don't have treble..boost 3dB around 16KHz..our idiot customers don't know they have lost their hearing around this frequency...they will discover things..airy..floaty highs
4. A bad limiter for brickwalling ( hey! Some have heard about the loudness war, but they don't understand anything about limiting)
Congratulations!! You have ruined your headphones output, but now you have a punchy, head splitting, nut shaking bassy headphones with plenty of trebles.
Final touch: cover up this joke of a signal chain with a nicely wrapped app where fruitcakes can distort the sound even more.
Do it once ( takes less than 5 minutes if you are familiar with these tools) you will understand what I mean.
Sorry it's a long post..if possible read it and try at home. We, the snob audio fools don't EQ our cans, but we do know how to use it rather well.
On topic: I completely forgot about one superb wireless headphones..closed back but no ANC..the Drop Panda (THX)
It's possibly the best sounding wireless headphone I ever tried.
Unfortunately I managed to break it ( please don't ask how) within a week.
This is THE wireless headphone to beat in my book.
Anybody looking to buy wireless headphones, should consider this ( difficult to source, out of stock or very long waiting period at least in Europe, anything from the drop.com is a PITA outside US)
APTx HD and APTx are very very close. NO!! The volume isn't low at all..go to the developers option and find something like unlink with absolute volume or something. Now swipe down the volume on the PXC touch pad ( which should not bring down the volume slider in your phone) Now crank up your phone's volume to maximum, and finally swipe the volume up the earcup...it will go to earsplitting level.
It's the same with all high quality wireless headphones, as the drivers are less efficient ( XM4 goes loud because of compensatory gain of 8:1 compression and obvious cheap drivers fed by cheaper DAC and an obnoxious warm sounding amp)
PXC 550 handling bass poorly compared to XM4!! That's interesting!! 550 has a huge obnoxious peak at lower treble, but the bass is not so bad, slow for sure, but not XM4 level slow ( the entire tuning of 1000XM4 is strange and very poorly implemented in mid bass, that crazy ass mid bass distorts even the podcast vocals considerably) You can record yourself talking and listen to it with XM4, you won't recognise your own voice. If you like that kind of tuning XM4 will be perfect for you.
It's the only headphone I know of with this kind of timbre. A piccolo often sounds like horn.
If you listen to something with a loud brass section ( Hans Zimmer type soundtracks) it's impossible to distinguish the trumpet, tuba and trombones. It will make a thick syrupy sound with zero clarity.
I can make the HD600 almost similar to that. Load a wav file in Presonus Studio one..add the followings in the master chain in the same order
1.U-he Presswork or Fab filter pro C2
Set the ratio to 8:1, with a fast attack and slow release ( don't remember exact values)
Keep the compensation gain untouched
2. U-he Satin or Steven Slate's tape emulator, take any preset with the word analog in it ( yes, it's this crude)
3. Slap in an EQ (Pro Q2) make a huge 4dB bump with a wide Q around 200-400 Hz, now Sony's logic.. people thought we don't have treble..boost 3dB around 16KHz..our idiot customers don't know they have lost their hearing around this frequency...they will discover things..airy..floaty highs
4. A bad limiter for brickwalling ( hey! Some have heard about the loudness war, but they don't understand anything about limiting)
Congratulations!! You have ruined your headphones output, but now you have a punchy, head splitting, nut shaking bassy headphones with plenty of trebles.
Final touch: cover up this joke of a signal chain with a nicely wrapped app where fruitcakes can distort the sound even more.
Do it once ( takes less than 5 minutes if you are familiar with these tools) you will understand what I mean.
Sorry it's a long post..if possible read it and try at home. We, the snob audio fools don't EQ our cans, but we do know how to use it rather well.
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