Apple M3 chip
- Thread starter MrRobot
- Start date
Darth Vader
Forerunner
2L budget for a PC/Laptop and 16GB RAM is disproportionate config as well unless you run one custom app utilizing GPU Mem all day.
desiibond
Juggernaut
bhai, understand the meaning/feeling, do not go by literal statement.
Apple be like 8GB RAM is enough for everyone, forever.
Wondering how much it would've bothered the world's richest company to add mere 8GB more, assuming adding RAM for these devices is replacing m/b itself ?
Earlier, their selling point was ease and speed of working on multimedia files, which was fully valid those days. Now, I think intel /amd will wipe the floor with pear-shaped inc. devices on that aspect.
Probably, responsibility partially lies on those who buy these devices too.
www.macrumors.com
Wondering how much it would've bothered the world's richest company to add mere 8GB more, assuming adding RAM for these devices is replacing m/b itself ?
Earlier, their selling point was ease and speed of working on multimedia files, which was fully valid those days. Now, I think intel /amd will wipe the floor with pear-shaped inc. devices on that aspect.
Probably, responsibility partially lies on those who buy these devices too.
8GB RAM on M3 MacBook Pro 'Analogous to 16GB' on PCs, Claims Apple
Following the unveiling of new MacBook Pro models last week, Apple surprised some with the introduction of a base 14-inch MacBook Pro with M3 chip,...
www.macrumors.com
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Party Monger
Innovator
Cause the strategy is to pull people into the store with lower starting price and the make them get insanely priced ram and Ssd upgrades. You will now not find a single point that's vfm. All will seem equally good and you will keep climbing up their price ladder with upgrades. You try m3 you think you should get m3 pro. Get m3 pro and add a few upgrades? Might as well get m3 Max cause it has so much more.. And suddenly you're spending 3L.Apple be like 8GB RAM is enough for everyone, forever.
Wondering how much it would've bothered the world's richest company to add mere 8GB more, assuming adding RAM for these devices is replacing m/b itself ?
Earlier, their selling point was ease and speed of working on multimedia files, which was fully valid those days. Now, I think intel /amd will wipe the floor with pear-shaped inc. devices on that aspect.
Probably, responsibility partially lies on those who buy these devices too.
8GB RAM on M3 MacBook Pro 'Analogous to 16GB' on PCs, Claims Apple
Following the unveiling of new MacBook Pro models last week, Apple surprised some with the introduction of a base 14-inch MacBook Pro with M3 chip,...
I think the comparison was basis mainly on the price being same.
desiibond
Juggernaut
How? M2 pro model costs $1999 and M3 model costs $1599.
Apple is going to get hit with major abuse now if this happens to people. Blender is crashing on 8GB M3 MBP. RT too is disabled in Blender on 8GB memory models.
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Party Monger
Innovator
Vast majority of people got the Air for plain M chips. Macbook pro for the pro chips. Thats probably like 90% of their sales. They have tried to fcuk over a whole bunch of people. Selling laptops that cost 1000-2000$ with 8gb ram is another blatant customer abuse. I hope they get fcuked like they got with USB C.
Heisen
Forerunner
Devil's advocate here.
I see no problem with 8GB, in fact I'd take the 8GB model if I had only 1.7 lakh to spend, over the previous gen M2. Most people here are assuming that it's a pro model so it's got to have at least 16GB of RAM in the base model, actually there are plenty of tasks, use cases that will work just fine with 8GB RAM. Not everyone is a hardcore editor, or developer etc for them the option is there with 16GB and 24GB RAM.
From the article posted above.
While the 14-inch MacBook Pro with 8GB of unified memory is $300 more expensive than the M2 13-inch MacBook Pro it replaces, there are a number of other benefits worth considering aside from the faster processor, such as the larger, brighter mini-LED Liquid Retina XDR display, support for 120Hz ProMotion refresh rates, and better battery life. Other improvements include additional ports, a better 1080p FaceTime HD camera, a six-speaker sound system, Wi-Fi 6E support, and Bluetooth 5.3.
Obviously if you already have M1 or M2 macbook pro it won't make much sense to buy this 8GB model, it's perfect for the first time buyers. It's good for people who need little more bells and whistles than the macbook air.
Memory isn't everything. More than half the planet is running 8GB RAM currently and the things are working just fine.
I see no problem with 8GB, in fact I'd take the 8GB model if I had only 1.7 lakh to spend, over the previous gen M2. Most people here are assuming that it's a pro model so it's got to have at least 16GB of RAM in the base model, actually there are plenty of tasks, use cases that will work just fine with 8GB RAM. Not everyone is a hardcore editor, or developer etc for them the option is there with 16GB and 24GB RAM.
From the article posted above.
While the 14-inch MacBook Pro with 8GB of unified memory is $300 more expensive than the M2 13-inch MacBook Pro it replaces, there are a number of other benefits worth considering aside from the faster processor, such as the larger, brighter mini-LED Liquid Retina XDR display, support for 120Hz ProMotion refresh rates, and better battery life. Other improvements include additional ports, a better 1080p FaceTime HD camera, a six-speaker sound system, Wi-Fi 6E support, and Bluetooth 5.3.
Obviously if you already have M1 or M2 macbook pro it won't make much sense to buy this 8GB model, it's perfect for the first time buyers. It's good for people who need little more bells and whistles than the macbook air.
Memory isn't everything. More than half the planet is running 8GB RAM currently and the things are working just fine.
desiibond
Juggernaut
How many from that half of the planet pay 2L rupees for laptop with 8GB memory? I do not understand why you are J ustifying 8GB because MBP has these other features. I look at the price and it is absolutely justified that it has 16GB memory atleast. Even if you take home use case, one reason is to reduce caching and load content faster and the other reason is future proofing. Mac are used for years and years. Unlike Intel Macs, we cannot upgrade memory year or two later when 8GB becomes major bottleneck.
I still have MBP from 2017 and it has 16GB memory. My new one has M2 Pro with 16GB memory and 1TB storage. This is essential given how heavy content is these days.
MrRobot
Contributor
8GB RAM in M3 MacBook Pro Proves the Bottleneck in Real-World Tests
Apple's new MacBook Pro models are powered by cutting-edge M3 Apple silicon, but the base configuration 14-inch model starting at $1,599...
www.macrumors.com
Apples Clown Show.
superczar
Juggernaut
i get the 16gb ram..
But have always been curious about why people need a lot of storage these days.
Yes, in an ideal world, there would have been an equivalent laptop with upgradeable storage that i could slap in for cheap..
or apple storage upgrades would cost less than what they do .. but since both seem to be non real scenarios currently, why 1 TB on a laptop?
(of course this question does not apply if you are a pro video editor or such - this question is meant for normal users)
desiibond
Juggernaut
For normal use, forget about 1TB, pro itself is absolute overkill. Even for me, a 512GB would be just enough but I got very good offer on 12 core cpu and 19core GPU model that came with 1TB. Those extra CPU and GPU cores make big difference for me and I only paid 10k more than base M2 Pro MBP.
rsaeon
Guide
Macbooks haven't had upgradeable memory for a decade now. The best selling Macbook has always been the base tier with 8GB of memory.
It's possible with SSD caching and the new Apple Silicon architecture, Apple predicts that 8GB would be sufficient for the next few years of computing. Especially more so in laptops where multitasking is limited by the smaller screen size and laptops, by nature, are more for portable computing than a workstation replacement. That's why the better display, camera, speakers, wifi and more ports become more important than system memory.
With five screens, I run out of CPU faster than I run out of memory while multitasking on the M1. That wasn't true for Intel based macs.
It's possible with SSD caching and the new Apple Silicon architecture, Apple predicts that 8GB would be sufficient for the next few years of computing. Especially more so in laptops where multitasking is limited by the smaller screen size and laptops, by nature, are more for portable computing than a workstation replacement. That's why the better display, camera, speakers, wifi and more ports become more important than system memory.
With five screens, I run out of CPU faster than I run out of memory while multitasking on the M1. That wasn't true for Intel based macs.
desiibond
Juggernaut
That is because people have no other option. Those who are desperate for a Mac and do not have budget to buy one with 16GB are going with 8GB model. They are buying 8GB model not because they love it, they do it because they do not have a choice. Apple knows that the moment they make a 16GB/512GB MacBook Air as base model and sell it for same price as current base model, it will hit their MBP sales big time. It is not about 8GB being enough. They are doing this to push buyers towards Pro models. And now, even the base Pro has 8GB memory which is downright ridiculous.
When I pay 2L or more for a Pro laptop, I should not even be in a situation where SSD is used as memory. This is just unacceptable. It reduces performance and puts un-necessary stress on SSDs which have limited TBW. SSD is to store data and it has to be used in that way. Do not forget that if that SSD dies after warranty is over, Apple will make you pay for entire board. I don't give a rats ass about Apple's prediction on 8GB. It is not enough. I had tested simple use case of opening multiple tabs and watch a video on MBA that has 8GB of memory and did the same on MBP with 16GB of memory. There itself, there was difference and 8GB MBA started using SSD cache.
There is one more advantage of having surplus memory. Caching (of most opened files) happens in the memory itself which makes application load faster. This is mine right now on normal use where I have few webpages and few social media apps open. Look at the memory usage. How can you say that 8GB is enough? You see that 'Cached Files'. That is in-memory cache that keeps files that help loading websites and applications faster. With 16GB of memory, I am not putting stress on SSD and I am using memory for cache as well. Given that there is no need for aggressive file copy between memory and SSD, pressure on both comes down. In short, 8GB is absolutely pathetic for a laptop in 2023.
I am not sure why you are mixing up home using with professional use cases. For a normal user, Pro is absolutely not required. There are alternatives for camera/speakers/ports but you just cannot change memory. I can use my iPhone as webcam which is way way better than 1080p camera on MBP. I can have external speakers, I can have external display. Can I have external memory? NO. Once you pay for memory, you are stuck with it. Also, the new MacBook Air has very very good display, MagSafe charging, six speakers and 1080p webcam. No one is going to need HDMI port when on the move and if at home, a simple dock that has HDMI and microSD slots will do the job. I would close my eyes and buy the 13" MBA with 16GB memory and 512GB storage for 1.5L and save 50k if it is for home use. I can even go with the 15" MBA for normal use as there are offers and discounts coming up on MBA models this festive season. I can invest in a brilliant external display, keyboard, table, chair and what not which elevates experience compared to paying 2L just for pro-motion display.
This scenario arises when one uses DisplayLink way to connect multiple displays to M1 Mac which obviously cannot drive that many displays. M1 simply is not designed to drive multiple displays and Apple made it very clear. Try the same with M2 Max or M3 Max and you would not run out of CPU unless when you do processing that will utilise all of CPU cores. This is same with any PC hardware.
where do you score such offers? I never see them online.
this is because the mb itself doesn't support these many displays hardware wise, you are using a software-based solution which needs hardware, what do you think will happen?
desiibond
Juggernaut
I went to Imagine store in my office campus to purchase base M2 Pro MBP for 1.99L. I wanted in silver color. They mentioned that the other store has this higher M2 Pro variant on which they are running offer and I grabbed it instantly. It is not mentioned in their website as well. Probably they wanted to get rid of stock of non-base models, anticipating newer Macs.
rsaeon
Guide
Your arguments and frustration are valid and shared by many but the computing needs of people like us barely make for a single digit percentage of Apple's customer base.
Also, the parallels between PC hardware and Apple Silicon hardware are not entirely compatible.
8GB easily becomes constrained on a windows computer, but not necessarily so on an Apple Silicon system. Similarly SSD caching on an Apple Silicon system is not even close to the lagginess you'd see on a Windows computer. Apple doesn't use NVMe or AHCI to access storage — the nand chips interface directly with the processor. There's no protocol overhead or controller latency involved. Would a regular/pro user notice SSD caching on a single screen system? Early M1 power users didn't even know it was happening until they started looking at the TBW numbers on their SSD.
Tangentially relevant: https://dariuszwojcik.medium.com/the-life-expectancy-of-ssd-in-m1-macbook-ef1aa7e250a3
And it's not like I'm speaking hypothetically, my M1 is caching to disk all the time even with 16GB of memory (and I barely notice it — probably because I have too many screens to look at):
And that is without any of my image editing apps open, I'm just catching up on stuff that happened while I was asleep.
It's probably fair to say that Apple thinks you'll upgrade your Macbook before SSD wear and tear becomes a factor (likely 6 to 9 years). Apple does have experience from their iOS devices to make this prediction, it's not like they're stubbornly sticking to 8GB with no precedent. On Apple's scale, of course you'd prioritize the model with the lowest manufacturing cost and highest profit and most units sold. That was their reasoning when they killed the 17" Macbook Pro, it accounted for something like 2% of sales (it was my favourite computer of all time). The lowest tier model has had non-upgradeable 8GB for a decade now and people have been buying them for a decade so Apple keeps making them.
Most buyers of the base tier models aren't demanding professionals — those, like yourself, will pay more for 16GB memory, for which Apple is eager to charge. But for every one of us who does pay for the 16GB upgrade, there's probably 999 or 9999 others who are oblivious/happy with 8GB. 'Pro' has become a status symbol so buyers are gravitating to the 'Pro' models over the non-pro. It's a purchasing mentality that carried over from the iPhones. Remember, Apple's mainstream/core user base aren't buying workstation replacements, they're buying laptops.
I'm starting to believe that Apple's higher priced upgrades have little to do with the upgrade itself but overhead of their manufacturing to produce a SKU with non-standard specifications. Kind of like how you can get your initials embroidered on the headrest of a luxury car, for an additional price (it's never free or complimentary).
It's actually non-native apps (screenshot before I moved to remoting into a windows box for these apps):
M1 handles displaylink adapters a lot better than expected. CPU usage right now playing video on a displaylink screen:
Apparently I didn't notice that the M1 did actually ran out of memory and was caching to disk, ha.
Also, the parallels between PC hardware and Apple Silicon hardware are not entirely compatible.
8GB easily becomes constrained on a windows computer, but not necessarily so on an Apple Silicon system. Similarly SSD caching on an Apple Silicon system is not even close to the lagginess you'd see on a Windows computer. Apple doesn't use NVMe or AHCI to access storage — the nand chips interface directly with the processor. There's no protocol overhead or controller latency involved. Would a regular/pro user notice SSD caching on a single screen system? Early M1 power users didn't even know it was happening until they started looking at the TBW numbers on their SSD.
Tangentially relevant: https://dariuszwojcik.medium.com/the-life-expectancy-of-ssd-in-m1-macbook-ef1aa7e250a3
And it's not like I'm speaking hypothetically, my M1 is caching to disk all the time even with 16GB of memory (and I barely notice it — probably because I have too many screens to look at):
And that is without any of my image editing apps open, I'm just catching up on stuff that happened while I was asleep.
It's probably fair to say that Apple thinks you'll upgrade your Macbook before SSD wear and tear becomes a factor (likely 6 to 9 years). Apple does have experience from their iOS devices to make this prediction, it's not like they're stubbornly sticking to 8GB with no precedent. On Apple's scale, of course you'd prioritize the model with the lowest manufacturing cost and highest profit and most units sold. That was their reasoning when they killed the 17" Macbook Pro, it accounted for something like 2% of sales (it was my favourite computer of all time). The lowest tier model has had non-upgradeable 8GB for a decade now and people have been buying them for a decade so Apple keeps making them.
Most buyers of the base tier models aren't demanding professionals — those, like yourself, will pay more for 16GB memory, for which Apple is eager to charge. But for every one of us who does pay for the 16GB upgrade, there's probably 999 or 9999 others who are oblivious/happy with 8GB. 'Pro' has become a status symbol so buyers are gravitating to the 'Pro' models over the non-pro. It's a purchasing mentality that carried over from the iPhones. Remember, Apple's mainstream/core user base aren't buying workstation replacements, they're buying laptops.
I'm starting to believe that Apple's higher priced upgrades have little to do with the upgrade itself but overhead of their manufacturing to produce a SKU with non-standard specifications. Kind of like how you can get your initials embroidered on the headrest of a luxury car, for an additional price (it's never free or complimentary).
It's actually non-native apps (screenshot before I moved to remoting into a windows box for these apps):
M1 handles displaylink adapters a lot better than expected. CPU usage right now playing video on a displaylink screen:
Apparently I didn't notice that the M1 did actually ran out of memory and was caching to disk, ha.
you do know that a lot of it relies on the silicon lottery? and the fact if your ssd stops working and your laptop is out of warranty you are screwed?
yea this is exactly our point, Apple is nickel-and-diming us and being a cheap ass in general. Memory/storage is one of the cheapest thing you can buy these days and having a 8/256 SKU in itself is an atrocity, the minimum should be 16/512 without any questions asked. but I do agree with your one point, apple does this shit because they can get away with it, if only one time all the Apple fanboys just said to Apple, "Get out, we are not paying these prices only to get second class citizen treatment", Apple would learn from it, but until then it is what it is, though if the rumors are to be believed, Nvidia/AMD might release their own APUs and that's when the laptop market will become interesting again.
Y'all have an Imagine store in your office? Damn nice, never saw anything like that in Amazon.
desiibond
Juggernaut
Lets stick to MacBook Pro customer base as we are talking about Macbook Pros. This frustration is for everybody who is in 'need' of Pro models/hardware. 8GB just won't work out and we all end up paying more for 16GB or more memory. If someone with no need for a MacBook Pro buys 8GB memory MBP just to show off that Apple logo at Starbucks, that is his/her choice.
Yes, even in my case, when I run intensive tasks that need huge memory, SSD use starts to go up. My point is that in 2023, even for basic usage, there is unwanted stress on SSD and Memory. What this author did not factor in is the heavy amount of writes that happen to SSD when there is very little memory available for applications and OS. This brings down the life of SSD and the same is the case for memory. This is why base MBP (even MBA) should come with 16GB memory and MBPs with M3 Pro/Max should come with 32GB memory. I started searching to see if this view is correct and see what I found in Macworld. Again, when I am paying 2L for a laptop, I should not even be thinking about all of this. We are having this discussion because of the things that Apple is doing. https://www.macworld.com/article/33...d-you-be-about-your-m1-macs-ssd-lifespan.html
Each year, there is one Apple product that is an absolute waste of money. Till last month it was 13" MBP (Apple only knows why they released this pile of crap that is inferior to MBA in every possible way) and now it is the 14" M3 MBP.
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