Delhi gang-rapists sentenced to death

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Please refer to this article - Activists: Indian Media Sensationalized Delhi Gang-Rape Case

This is an interesting angle that i'm not too clued up about. The state of juevenile justice in the country.

However, according to a recent Times of India report, “a statutory body ruled that the evidence against the juvenile belied media reports that he was ‘the most brutal’ of the six accused persons.” The report cited the Aug. 31 confidential order passed by the Juvenile Justice Board.

That's the thing, we cannot see the order so the rumours run wild. I don't recall the juvenile being mentioned as the most violent in the judgement. So it was a media creation.

Asthana condemned the rape coverage, saying, “His [juvenile’s] name, location, parents, religion, school—everything was revealed by media. Journalists reported from his house, and from his school, with incorrect and exaggerated reports.”

This is clearly a screw up. Juvenile identities are to kept confidential. Nature of the crime committed does not change the fact that a juvenile was involved.

As an aside be sceptical about what that particular website site says about China, its known for hyping things up which is ironic given the article. Have gotten shot down by chinese posters whenever i've quoted articles from there on other forums.

 

[asingh]

I keep bringing this up to remind everyone that if ordinary people are capable of premeditating such violence than who's to say that either myself or yourself aren't capable of similar crimes? The members who justify the death penalty by ONLY either

Then how are we to ever define non-ordinary people. Who can differentiate between the ordinary or the ordinary. It is equivalent to saying a non-doer can never assess a doer. It hardly makes sense to me. So you telling me that all the judiciary and judges and machinery which is out there, is not capable to judge a human of a crime, goes they can also do a similar crime due to being a man, human, and having a brain. So can a cop not issue you a speeding ticket, cause he himself can sit in a car and drive it beyond the designated speed limit. Please help me understand this line of thought, cause I am not getting it at all. Anyone is capable of any crime to be honest. So..? What does that mean...? We stop punishing people for crimes. Would not that be fallacious and extraordinarily weird at a societal level. Entity "A" cannot be judged by entity "B","C"; cause "B" and "C" also have the augmentation to underpass what "A" did. Plain weird, Sid. Or is this some sort of abstraction, which I am missing out on.

a) sympathizing with the victim

That could be happening. But people are also seeing the court proceedings and the circumstantial evidence pointing towards those men.

b) to save the tax-payers money
or
c) a & b
do so only because either they're frustrated or they'd rather avoid the hassle of investigating the case from all angles which is convenient for them.

I doubt it is a matter of tax money...! Which other angle you think should be taken. I am sure the judgement can be taken to a further appellate.

This case has stirred such a sh**storm against an already inept government ranging from petty finger-pointing to a mass riot, that no one wants to know if the government has properly investigated the case in its entirety since December 2012. All that everyone can think of is putting the rapists to death, even after its been revealed
a) that they've been misled by the biggest names in the media industry to believe that the juvenile was the most violent
b) a few sane activists have filed legal proceedings against the Indian media for sensationalizing the case

So you are saying the investigation should be more deeply probed. Those men had a lawyer to represent them. What more is needed...? They pleaded not-guilty (or some did); and said they were not present at the crime scene. But evidence (but we have yet to see that visibly) has been put in court and they have been proven guilty. Now what..? In this manner all judgements should be questioned and further analyzed..? Who has the time and machinery for this. Where is the faith in the system. It hardly matters who was the most violent or not, just that those people should be bought to justice if they committed the crime. A year has gone by to ascertain this delta. Fine, we can let it linger longer. But one day, the resultant will have to come out, right. Then even your arguments will hold water. How long can we let this go. 4 years, 5 years. Will your argument have varied then, though a time continuum is not a good basis to measure the sanctity and brevity of a judgement and its lateral proceedings, but how else can we measure this "quality"; if that is what you seek..?

These are the biggest indicators of emotionally compromised sentiments, misdirected anger, unbalanced priorities and herd mentality.

I seriously doubt the judiciary is following herd mentality..! As I mentioned in my prior replies (to which I have not replied to you -but- will); there is a lot of anger and discontentment out there. Specially for the plight of woman hood. And it is all coming out now. But the judiciary is talking their time, and a balanced decision should come out. It is not some kangaroo court, like you are making it sound.

How can you simply dismiss the fact that ordinary people committed such a brutal crime? Doesn't it shock you in the least bit? Are you implying that its only natural for all of us to be capable of such brazen and blood-curdling violence?

And what has this "shock" got to do with the judgement. Are you not back-tracking to what you stated. Is this not herd-mentality...? So you telling me: when a judgement is made, and a case is filed, a full societal study should be tacked on. And if it has not been undertaken, then it should be carried out for a fitment with the original charge-sheet. What is this..? Let me break it down:
1. A study is done why the rape was done.
2. We find out it was "x" factor which was the catalyst for step "y".
3. Step "y" is considered a crime.
4. So what is factor "x"...?
It is the root cause, right. Is this not apparent in the case of these four men. You want me to spell it out, why they raped her and shoved a rod up her womb..? Or are you saying that is also doubtful, and should be analyzed. I am sure the lab reports would have conformed to this..? This argument sounds stupid to me, and absolutely makes no sense. Not at this moment at least. You want to "bake" shock (and its upstream metrics) into the judgement. Does that not go against to what you said. Or is the "shock" reserved just for the psycho-analysis and RCA of the crime. Which is fine, but why bring it up here, and use it to buttress your argument against people who want some format of justice for the guilty proven (though you doubt that too).

Its imperative that the police investigation covers a case from all angles using psyche tests including studies that would normally be conducted post-verdict. I for one wouldn't like a post-verdict study to reveal a case was concluded in haste due to a rushed investigation. My idea of a progressive society is if there are more people who'd risk asking if the case was studied thoroughly instead of belligerently pressurising the government to pass a lopsided judgement.

All angles is a non-exhaustive term. There are factors of: time, money and human labor. And sorry to say, Sid, that is how the world works. What psychological tests you suggest be conducted. That girl is dead, and was never in a position to undergo these tests, anyways. Has not the testimony of her friend been taken into account.

Please refer to this article - Activists: Indian Media Sensationalized Delhi Gang-Rape Case

It hardly matters, if he is vindicated for the crime...! That is what I feel. If he makes it into the juvenile bracket he will be out soon. Ask your self: would you like to be near a person like that, or let females be near him. Sorry to say, I would not. I am not some hippie, smoking pot; and tree huger. Though nor are you...! People can have evil in them, and it has to be controlled or curbed off.

That was sarcastic in nature. Since nobody cared to analyze a), justifying the death penalty by ONLY sympathizing with the victim OR saving the tax-payers money is as baseless as condemning gym-instructors, fruit-sellers, bus-drivers and the unemployed as potential rapists.

Any one can be a potential rapist. We all are. Yes. It is shocking but the truth. Who is a potential rapist...? Someone who has raped before..? What is the definition..? You still feel these four are potentials, or actually that is yet to be proven..?

**************************prior replies**************************

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.in/2010/05/circling-behavioral-drain.html
This is what is happening to our country. Everyone who is supporting the death penalty on this thread, including yourself, are trapped inside a behavioral sink. That is why you cannot see beyond the death penalty and the fact that constructive measures like increasing patrol duty, increasing the size of the police-force, restructuring laws, etc elude you is proof that your attitude is affected by external factors. Does anyone even realize that this was the first crime committed by the likes of a bus-driver, a gym instructor, a fruit seller and a juvenile with no past history of violence. They're just ordinary people, no different from anyone on this thread except in social-standing, committing violent acts of crime.

No.
You got the crux of the exhibited experiment and its linear mechanisms grossly incorrect...! You are just taking our (the posters here) activities and applying it to that thought process. Did you not read, what else is a perpetrator for those factors which humans can start to show. Yes, India is in a behavioral sink, but similar to those rats, and how they became sexual predators and cherry-picked they weaker portion of their race. Is that not happening all around us. Are not women picked on, and molested and given a difficult time. The err in your argument is: application of post preventive doctrine to a current scenario and reverse extrapolating. I feel, that is incorrect, so am arguing with you incessantly.
Only ordinary people commit a crime...? Are they still "ordinary" after committing a crime. What you think the answer should be to this..? Can not normal people commit a crime.

http://www.dw.de/the-death-penalty-is-not-the-solution/a-17087181

Basically making women more empowered, and telling men to keep them selves under control. So what should be do with future criminals against women...? Just take them to a room, sit in a circle and talk about it. Will it work...? For all cases. Empty out our prisons, an not have justice proceedings..? I hope you agree to my 2nd suggestion, cause then you will cross-question the whole-process like you have above, and call them ordinary citizens like us all...!

FYI, women in India were treated much better before independence. Our's is an isolated and insular culture that was fine until the Britishers came along. Hinduism is primitive only when directly compared to modern western culture. Otherwise Hinduism is fine by itself in isolation.

That does not matter. What matters how they are being treated now. Which is basically sh**. I hope you agree to this, at least. Being isolated and insular does not justify any such behavior. Why should it..? Cross cultural comparisons are non-generic in applicability, but forced marriages and non-consensual body contact / sex, really have no berth in any culture. Be it open-world or grid-locked to a geo-political region.

**************************prior replies**************************

There is no doubt that there is serious issue in India right now. But know that at the same time, South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, etc., countries that can be considered at the level of India or better were /are facing similar issues. As far as my understanding goes, South Africa is far worse than India. What would you say in such a scenario. By painting all Indian men gangrene, don't you think you are going a bit overboard ? By these comments, you are knowingly or unknowingly are creating unexpected and unnecessary conflicts between genders. All those Indian fathers, brothers, husbands who loving nurtured their family till date will stand looking down, as insulted and honorable men generally do at such rants.

You know what, India is beyond comparison when it comes to gender differences. And we all know that. Maybe the tribes of Africa can beat us in being worse or Pakistan, but does it matter. If my neighbor is living in a bad situation, should I too..? Or not try to improve it. Are you blind: not to see it on the streets. Can women walk around in fitting slacks (even in cities) without being starred and gawked at..? Why do we have separate sections in the Delhi Metro for women...? This speaks for all the honorable fathers/brothers/husbands too. Cause our gender = M. That is how I see it, to be honest. Oh, and this is not a rant...? God, knows why you would say that, and not keep it civil. Why am I going over board...? Have you really not seen the condition out in the streets specially at night, when women walk out. And it is getting worse day - by - day, as our society gets more corrupt and people can get away with crime. Munirka where this happened, is like a few kms to wear I live. That place is not isolated. But it still happened, right. If this is a rant, then I guess we all are blind..! LOL.

Now, the last thing we need is having boundaries drawn between genders as if in a war. Create fences and you can make sheep out of people.

It is needed in India. Go ask any lady/girl out in India. Who goes to office by public commute.

Gender politics is already being well exploited as vote bank by political parties. The fact that 'Aam Aadmi' Indian men are clueless about fully women centric laws, overtly balanced against men, being passed in the parliament every fortnight does not mean that it will not cause any impact of those on the society later. Attack by new age feminism arose form garbage bins of west is another issue.

Which is sad. But our politicians are bad, and we all know that. You said it, women centric laws. Why were they even created. Cause there was some issue right. I agree, feminism has had is ups and down. What I say, is not feminism, it is just protecting a part of our society. The most important one...!

Free market globalization have turned common man more materialistic and there is not go back from here. It will be gross ignorance to think that daily news full of scams, corruption, nepotism, violence done by their own leaders have no bearing over the man on the road /subconscious psyche of collective society.

So what you are saying: free market-->materialistic society-->scams, corruption-->psychological affect on common man. So..? What is justified or should be corrected. What does this support or is it fortitude for some other aspect.?

What we need is a better value system to be implanted on urgent priority on our leaders, then on common man, before having death penalty enforced on underage children.

Our leaders are a lost cause. Please do not club populace with governance (the drivers). Specially in India...! But I agree, our leaders need to be corrected, maybe even wiped out...! LOL.

 

[asingh]

I never suggested any of what you mentioned above. What i find disturbing is that almost all of the men in India are demanding the death sentence without thinking things through. I couldn't care less if the death penalty is served(or not). All that matters to me is constructive thinking in the form of a balanced debate. It is sickeningly hypocritical that almost all Indian men would demand blood when they cannot even identify with the rapists. Serving the death penalty will only help enable them and boost a male's power conscious ego.

How are men supposed to identify with the rapists..? What is the reason for this..? What else is needed to be thought through, or are we just going round-and-round in circles. I have put my points across why post-analysis is better rather than getting into it right now. You made it apparent that the justice delivered may not be correct since it is biased and there is a herd-mentality. Is criminal empathy always needed..? Specially when the scope was so large. How, non-disclosure of this is hypocritical. Or you want us all thinking like an NGO..? No one will get a boost, if those guys are cooled off.

If this were true then why is it that majority of the posts in this thread repeatedly mentions how gruesome the crime was instead of elaborating on the court proceedings? If we're lucky, the death penalty will temporarily curb such violence after which the crime rates will reach levels similar to the numbers before the death penalty was made mandatory.

Cause it was gruesome, and it is cemented in peoples mind. If they had rib-tickled the girl and walked off, this scenario would never have happened right. So you telling me: the brutality should isolated and then the judiciary proceedings should be carried forward. No one even knows what exactly is happening inside the court room, or have they divulged it all out..? I am not really sure. The death penalty is not going to take the level drastically down, but it will send a strong message across. It is similar to how we are actually booked when we jump a light vs. bribing. We all have gone to far into criminal and petty hazard in our daily lives.

No No No. Just because the government is inept doesn't mean that even the people need to make decisions hastily.

Where are people making decisions...? It is not only one person. A whole machinery is at work. I do not see any haste here..? What was done hastily..?

I was talking about the people hungry for bloodlust and not the judiciary, who by the way are doing their best even when under a lot of pressure from the public.

Okay, probably it was clear to me. I think the judiciary is doing fine. I am not sure, where you see blood - lust, specially in terms of women's right in India. Which has one of the worst records around this in the worlds.

How did you conclude that i was talking about psychological tests solely for the female victim in this case? Either you're arguing for the sake of arguing or you're under the impression that i'm a nincompoop.

Sid, watch you mouth..! Thanks. People read a lot into each others posts, and can be "stand corrected'. Right. I asked you "questions" in the same fragment which you quoted, which leaves it open for YOU to clarify your post. No, I do not think you are a moron. Sorry. I did mention also: why exhaustive is not always possible.

The article was geared towards the irresponsible media. Had you read the article atleast once, you'd have understood.

You are loosing it..! LOL.
I read the article. And I replied what I felt deemed fit from it. Just attack the argument, and not me. It does not matter what the media is doing (that is my reply to you); if he gets into the "j" bracket, then he will be free soon, ready for reforms. In India. My stand was: the virile media holds no value here, specially for the juvenile, if he gets out soon...! As per the clause.

It had nothing to do with the rapists. Blindly/Hastily supporting a violent penalty for a violent crime is as ignorant as labelling only the unemployed, fruit sellers, bus drivers and gym instructors as potential rapists.

I really do not think that their professions were being labelled to rape. As I said: any one can be a rapist. Or the instigator for forced - sex. Those statistics are scary.

The rapists are victims of the behavioural sink while the male posters, who are genetically predisposed towards violence, fail to recognize an oddity in the nature of the crime. Why is it that there isn't a single post in this thread that talks about reforms in law-enforcements? I thought of a few didn't i? Is increasing patrol duty at night a waste of time and money? You've also failed to elaborate on any of my suggestions even after quoting my post. If yourself and the other male posters, supporting the death penalty, are really concerned about the plight of women in India then where's the harm in training female police officers or equipping women with tasers/pepper sprays or even encouraging women to take up classes in self-defence/martial arts?

People have recognized this trend to be honest. That is why there are so many protests. It all boils down to the plight of the women here. Increasing beat-patrol would be good, I agree with you..! The other various mechanisms which you mentioned, are hyper (or meta) to the crime. Are you not getting that. They are over and above. Just cause there are no preventive measures (which you suggest) for an activity; does not mean societal methods of reprimand / example setting / punishment should cease when the activity is observed or documented for occurence. Also: it would be better for the health of this thread, if you cease to address the "whole board" as a single entity. That is why people are getting annoyed with you, and you are facing a back-lash. It is detrimental, Sid.

Like you, I agree that women are being treated poorly in today's world especially because women feel that reforms to empower women aren't being implemented fast enough and possibly deliberately. Having said that how difficult is it to come up with a few suggestions like the ones i've mentioned above.

Not difficult at all..! The suggestion for reforms.

Drawing fences between two genders makes sense only if both are on equal footing. Fencing off the weaker sex for their own protection makes them look even weaker in the eyes of the stronger sex.

I really do not see any other way. Why do we walk down the street with our female acquaintances or not let them travel alone at night..? I would rather have 'em ring fenced (and others see them as weaker), then dead in a hospital in South East Asia...! Can you not see how much we have rotted and become cancerous as a full society. The basin of civilization, hosting one of the first documented populations in the world, landing point of the fabled Aryans, epitome of excellence for Nazi Germany (racially) -and- now what are we. It is sad. Nothing to be proud off. See, I understand where you are coming from. Caning vs. caring. It is a delicate balance and decisions are hard...!

 

[ithehappy]

Nothing you say can or will ever convince me that extreme measures or harsher laws is the solution. If anything it will make a lawless land even worse. I will continue to hold my ground because i see the Delhi Gang rape case as a sign for us to intellectually reform ourselves. Here is an opportunity to step up to first-world societies while avoiding mistakes they made in their pursuit of progression. And what do i have in support of my argument? The contents of this thread.

LMAO. Who gives a damn about what convinces YOU? Why trying to make a big deal of yourself? You've pretty nicely built a third class construction, and then you yourself are talking about stepping up to first class? Are you psychologically alright?

Btw, anyone has any update on this? How long this nonsense holding up is gonna take?

 

[ithehappy]

I think you don't really understand anyone's point, let alone mine. What's this winning thing you keep bragging about? What's to win here? What's at stake? What's really wrong with you?

You're back. Nice to see you again. What exactly is this third class construction that i've built for myself? Do you really believe that you win an argument whenever you question someone's mental condition?

 

[ithehappy]

Oh boy, it's like speaking to a wall. I don't know of an injection that I can push and you will understand what I am trying to say here. And I am laughing so hard that you think I have some deep-seated grudge on hold. Dear Lord! FYI, Just after 30 seconds after typing this message I will go back to the game I was playing, I come back here often when I am tired of playing, or sometimes in middle of work. I will commit suicide on that day if any forum nonsense gets me and affects my real life by 0.01%
Now secondly, no, I don't believe in majority/minority nonsense either. If a comment is valid, it's valid, even if just one person in this universe says that and all others disagree. In this case, your comments are hilarious, so it's not a case of numbers.
Thirdly, it's really childish that after this long you ask me why I think you are mentally unstable. Read your own comments and relate the actual situation with it, see if you find anything. But I am sure you will be unable to.
Then, I have not been polite because, how should I put it....your comments are disgusting, yeah that sounds right.
Also, there's nothing to prove, it's not e=mc2 that I need to prove.
And lastly, what the hell does this mean, people whose opinion are similar to mine? Are you talking about the rapists here? I bet you are. Because only three kinds of people will agree with you, a- your obnoxious duplicates, b- all the wild animals (with all the respect to them as their brain architecture is different than ours), c- needless to say all the scumbags, rapists, murderers and those m-----------s. Now take your pick. And dear mods, kindly don't ask me to hold my language here, if you can, ask those scumbags to hold their genitals.

 

[ithehappy]

Lol, man, I really feel sad for you. How long does it take you quote me in sections and your replies anyway? Wish I had that much time.

 

[avi]

Lol, man, I really feel sad for you. How long does it take you quote me in sections and your replies anyway? Wish I had that much time.

lol, I have not read your replies, but usually say these kinda stuff when they don't have strong arguments to back them up

 

[ithehappy]

lol, I have not read your replies, but usually say these kinda stuff when they don't have strong arguments to back them up

And then the same comment applies to you too.

 

[avi]

yeah, but I am not in the discussion

 

[ithehappy]

yeah, but I am not in the discussion

That's good, you're not surrounded by idiots then.

 

[avi]

dude, even I can make such replies. I can call someone idiot or say I feel sad for them, insult or post some stupid meme. anyways, you are missing my point.

 

[ithehappy]

Lol, I'm not missing your point. From the day that idiot came in touch with this topic this topic was never about any point anyway.
Do realize what has gone in this previously before getting involved. I've seen so many, too many smarta$$ like him who juggles with words and make their point politically polished, sooner or later everyone realizes the fact, it's about time.

dude, even I can make such replies. I can call someone idiot or say I feel sad for them, insult or post some stupid meme. anyways, you are missing my point.

 

[dexBG]

 

[avi]