You didn't talk about any of issues I mentioned.
You certainly lack courage.
And defining 'courage' for others? wow!
Demonetisation and its Aftermath
- Thread starter psyph3r
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You didn't talk about any of issues I mentioned.
You certainly lack courage.
And defining 'courage' for others? wow!
rdst_1
Innovator
If a state objective failed, shouldn't be the people who thought of it and implemented it poorly, should be made to answer for that.
If tomorrow, a bridge collapses and causes problems to people and kill a few, wouldn't you want that the people responsible for it be punished.
So why is it any different in this case.
Demonetisation isn't wrong in concept. But it can only be successful if it's implementation is fool proof.
So don't you think that the people responsible for carrying it out so poorly, be made to answer for the reasons of it's failure and for wastage of so much of people's time and taxes.
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NotMyRealName
Dunno, if people forgot already but there was a demonetisation previously, 2005 IINM, where older Rs. 500 notes were demonetised. NOBODY was inconvenienced by this, and many didn't even notice. But the single biggest proof that this was one if the BJP's biggest scams is that they scrapped 500s and 1000s and came out with 2000s ! If they were serious about it as a positive measure, they would have printed sh!tloads of 100s and then scrapped the 500 and 1k.
Well if that is what you think then I guess there is no point in continuing this. All I can say is that you have a wrong notion of courage(but as plus point you are in majority in India).
If there was no malicious intent & bribery,a human error is not enough ground on its own for a successful criminal conviction in any decent court of law(most one can do is fire the persons responsible).I can assure you no lawyer in India(or world) will be able to prove a malicious intent behind Modi's demonetization decision & human error(call it ego or mistake or whatever that suits you) will never be applicable against any politician in any decent democracy. As for your question about making responsible people answer for it,you do that by giving your vote against them which is what democracy is about.
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Northstar
Depends what you mean by made to answer. Filing a suit say for deaths caused ? i'd be surprised if there weren't any on that basis for compensation
This move pissed off a lot of people for various reasons so there is always your vote
It's one of a slew of measures that make transacting in cash harder without ID[DOUBLEPOST=1529502050][/DOUBLEPOST]
I think there was something similar even earlier, 70's i think but the details escape me
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Northstar
On a general level, laws passed by the govt are subject to challenge by the people. This what rule of law means. Govern by law is dictatorships and cannot be challenged.
if you can challenge laws then i don't see why suing the govt isn't applicable also, in a free country.
Subramaniam swamy seems to have made a mini career doing just that
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chiron
Herald
If you ignore the left/right wing ideology and look at how BJP and Communists operate in Kerala they are very similar and that is why I think there is so much political violence between them. Of course, political violence has been a thing especially in the northern districts between all political parties including Congress. I was against the Anna Hazare/Lokpal bullshit too which has now degenerated into AAP. I can't think of a better outcome than having regional parties and an unstable government. I am OK with the Congress because of their lack of any core ideology aside from going with the flow and pandering to public for votes but they have crippled themselves by having to have the Nehru dynasty be the leader. But then again, without having the Nehru dynasty at the top, Congress would split into regional parties as well because I can't see anything else holding them together. I think that being ruled by inefficient crooks who don't get along with each other is a better alternative to being ruled by powerful, manipulative, efficient and centralized ones.
Agreed, I've always felt that schadenfreude was the key reason that there was not a huge backlash against the move. Also, speaking out against the move obviously meant that you were a black money hoarder because why else would anyone be against this.
There was no system in place for NRI's to exchange old notes (at least that was the case for me in Canada) and so I am sure that would account for a very small percentage cash that didn't come back. Also, vast majority of black money hoarders would be small businesses and I think believing that 99% of them were organized enough to get their money exchanged is a huge stretch.
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rdst_1
Innovator
So you believe that there was no malicious intent or bribery involved in the failed implementation of demonetisation.
Maybe, Modi directly didn't take a bribe. But then he needs to ensure that the people responsible for the failed implementation, the one who took the bribes are behind bars.
Just not electing someone is not enough. We need stricter accountability, otherwise the politicians will keep taking the common people for a ride.
This was an effort which was designed and implemented from the very top. If they didn't have a malicious intent, even then, if their actions have caused so much loss of tax money and even human life, they should be punished to the full extent of law.
If a person accidentally kills another person without any malicious intent or bribe, they are still charged for involuntary manslaughter.
There was a time, when a railway minister of India by the name of Lal Bahadur Shastri resigned when a train derailed. His second resignation was accepted after another train derailed after three months, only because it would set an example of moral and constitutional responsibility. He was also a leader, who while holding the position of the Prime Minister bought a car on loan, which was paid out by her widow.
These were leaders who set examples of moral and ethical standards a leader should have. If it is too much to ask that there be leaders who have such high moral standards these days, then we should try and hold our current leaders to such high standards. That means we need to have stricter accountability by pulling our leaders to the courts and make them answer for their failures.
Congress also used to make a point that MMS isn't corrupt himself. Now BJP is making the same excuses. Just not being corrupt themselves is not an achievement if you failed to do the job that you were elected to do. Not getting re-elected is just not enough.
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Northstar
We saw this with the first UPA. BJP & commies, surprisingly seemed to be united in their opposition. This never made any sense to me until Alyssa Ayres mentioned the Indian right at some point loops back on the left. Only in India, lol. The Sangh has left tendencies which is why labour reform got no where. I don't know if the similarity is the cause for the violence but the commies use violence as policy, they see the BJP coming in as intruding on their turf and we see the results in dead RSS workers. Mamta isn't any different. When it comes to goons, the left has the most experience. What scared me about AAP is Hazare. His tactics. How much those tactics make up a part of AAP's gameplan isn't clear. For a party that should have done much better with the middle class their lackluster performance outside Delhi is surprising. With Congress if you get too successful, they cut you loose, Pranab, Mamta, Patnaik, Pawar. If Rahul says he will provide a platform then in some ways the Congress party has split into regional parties and Congress plays the role of a holding company where applicable. There is only so far you can go with Congress. Narasimha is an exception.
What will the story be like with the BJP. Yogi is clearly Modi's successor. Modi still have ten years left. If Yogi gets too big for his boots does Modi get replaced or does Yogi get his wings clipped. Open question. When it comes to ideology i don't know how serious BJP is about it. With Modi it was about soft hindutva. They'd throw a bone to the fringe now and then to keep them happy but have no intention of going further or at least that's what it appears like after four years. People who conflated Modi wave with hindutva wave are not the happiest lot. The aim of the game these days is about power, capturing it and retaining it. Say abcd to get voted. How powerful is down to whether they can get a majority. Can they or will it end up like the previous NDA. A coalition that has people that will not hesitate to pull support whenever like Jaya did.
Couldn't bring the money back but need to show they are serious about black money. Does not matter one bit whether it works or not. All that matters is people believe something was done about it. In some ways if BJP wanted to kill AAP notes ban was a good move. Now they can't be accused of being corrupt or supporting corruption.
Nitin Desai said something about how they only mention percentages reurned but not the actual amount. The anchor didn't question him further so i don't know if there was more to what he was saying
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NotMyRealName
Lol, this is priceless:
https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatim...d-termed-demonetisation-as-anti-poor-in-2014/
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/...nt-view-on-demonetisation-in-2014_a_21603904/
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ng-upa-govt/story-1HSYEYCaX3SaIsRS6q2rhJ.html
https://www.business-standard.com/a...isation-anti-poor-in-2014-116111101092_1.html
https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatim...d-termed-demonetisation-as-anti-poor-in-2014/
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/...nt-view-on-demonetisation-in-2014_a_21603904/
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...ng-upa-govt/story-1HSYEYCaX3SaIsRS6q2rhJ.html
https://www.business-standard.com/a...isation-anti-poor-in-2014-116111101092_1.html
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NotMyRealName
But that's exactly it! This had nothing to do with black money. And the proof of malicious intent that people are asking for is the introduction of the 2000 note. Dunno why people don't get this. There is nothing more to say that can defend this move. You don't demonetise to remove black money and then come out with a 4x and 2x higher denomination note. The obvious excuse of quickly (2-4x faster) recapitalising the economy will not hold water when it just makes it so easy to hoard even more cash.[DOUBLEPOST=1529513539][/DOUBLEPOST]Very interesting and ridiculously detailed blog: https://exclusivecoins.blogspot.com/2011/10/did-you-know-series-6-500-rupee-notes.html[DOUBLEPOST=1529513946][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, people, when talking about the cost of demonetisation in terms of loss to the country also add the costs of printing and distributing the new notes, and the costs of securely scrapping and destroying the old notes. I'm sure in total, we're looking at 1000s of crores lost. Just because someone arbitrarily and dictatorially thought it would be fun to see the opposition squirm.
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You can certainly challenge the constitutionality of note ban & you can certainly take it for granted that you will lose(in fact people did file cases & they did lose).In India there are no rules for suing govt for such cases,for that constitution needs to be amended first.On a general level, laws passed by the govt are subject to challenge by the people. This what rule of law means. Govern by law is dictatorships and cannot be challenged.
if you can challenge laws then i don't see why suing the govt isn't applicable also, in a free country.
Subramaniam swamy seems to have made a mini career doing just that
Whether opposition or ruling party,both agree on at least this much that Modi's style of functioning is autocratic & not even his cabinet ministers barring FM & HM knew about this decision announcement. Modi maybe morally responsible but he is not legally or even realistically responsible for bank managers taking bribes during note ban. Do you think PM of India has that much free time to monitor lakhs of branches or that there is even a mechanism for this(aka it is India not US where IRS has massive surveillance resources)? Also you are forgetting one very basic tenant of law,innocent until proven guilty.As for introduction of Rs.2000/- note if you think you have a theory which noted economists & lawyers failed to prove in courts then you should immediately become one & start charging the same fees as jethmalani does. It is court not Modi who will send somebody behind bars(govt can order arrest & file cases but get a good lawyer & you will most likely get bail within hours/days) & they will do so only if prosecution can prove it(reason why top SC lawyers like Jethmalani charges 15lakhs per hearing).
Killing a person involuntarily still involves direct cause of death tenant,what you are saying has no legal standing in any recognized legal system(hey it is not me who created the legal system that world follows).Moral standards are not black & white & are not fixed. Maybe Modi needs to take responsibility but if he doesn't then you can't say that he is less moral than any other leader in current time.
Many people here arguing about responsibility of leaders & such,here is a good quote by Joseph de Maistre: "Every nation gets the government it deserves"
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Northstar
https://blogs.economictimes.indiati...-at-two-similar-experiments-in-1946-and-1978/
This is how the IE of Madras reported it in 1946 and the day after and next day. When the Brits were in charge. Target was the black market and not necessarily hoarders
Does the reporting of those events change your thinking ?
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NotMyRealName
Change my thinking in what way?
I don't really care what the media says, when the very first reports (whatsapp from friends) of the demon.... broke, the first thought in my mind was, "there's no way this is legally possible" and "it won't hold up in court". Who knew at the time that everything was in their control...
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Northstar
What ever this govt said is exactly the same as the British govt said back then. This was part of a move that occurred in Europe as a way to cancel out war time loot, they just cancelled ut higher denomination notes prior to wars end[DOUBLEPOST=1529520686][/DOUBLEPOST]
Said the same things back then too
Said the same things back then too
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NotMyRealName
'They' will say anything to suit their agenda. Doesn't mean squat. Again, even supporters of demon... were aghast to hear that they actually released an even higher denomination note afterwards. Which is why this is nothing like all other demonetisations. This is an outright lie and abuse of power.
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Northstar
Had you read the links of the '46 ordinance you'd find its exactly the same. They replaced 100, 500 & 1000 with other notes
Party Monger
Innovator
Bhakts will continue their whataboutery. British, Worldwars, 1940s and other shit that have no context here. Yawn.
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