Does your front loader WM rinse well ?

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Front loaders are supposed to be more economical in detergent, power consumption , water bla bla (than top loaders)

But does less water used mean less available to rinse well ?

Are you happy with the rinse ability of your front loader ? or do you feel it does not do the job as well.

Note that i'm not asking how well your WM washes clothes, i expect your machines to do well in washing clothes, am asking whether you find not all soap was removed.

as i read around i find people complaining about this inability of front loaders. These people usually have some skin allergy, eczema etc and think there is still detergent left over in the clothes. The flip side is those that do not have these problems have no issue with whether a front loader rinses well or not. They have no complaint.

How to tell if it rinses well, some people put the clothes in a bucket of water and see some soap residue in the water. This does not mean too much but its the simplest way.

One expects there would be as little soap residue after a wash cycle is done.

 

[Vasishta.Sushant]

Yes the front loaders use quite less water than their top loading counterparts. I personally use Rinse+/Rinse+hold options to ensure that there is enough emphasis on the rinsing. On the default cycles I've also felt that rinsing isn't as good as its with the top loading ones.

 

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So how many rinse cycles is that.

default is 2, so now it becomes 4. How much more time does 2 extra rinse cycles add ?

Ability to add additional rinse cycles would be an essential feature to have in a front loader.

 

[tech.addict]

Rinsing ability is directly proportional to wash load. I usually find that if I fill 3/4th of the tub with clothes it produces acceptable result. Sometimes I use the "medic rinse" program in my machine (LG) when I feel the wash load is more.

 

[asingh]

How are these better than the top loaders. Apart from being heavier.

 

[NotMyRealName]

The 'tumble wash' effect of the vertically spinning drum causes all round turbulence which would provide a better wash quality than in a top loader with a horizontal tub-spin motion.

Question here, though is rinsing. IMO, from personal experience, i've seen that spin cycles are what kill clothes the fastest. I especially hate that automatics do a spin after ever wash and rinse cycle. What i do is manually intervene and after the first wash, drain the water but cancel before the spin. Have it fill water and rinse, then drain and cancel. My cycles total 1 x wash with detergent, 2 x rinse in fresh water and then a final light spin cycle. If there was a lot of detergent used in the wash, then i may have a third rinse or till the water looks clear. It's a bit of a PITA that i have to keep going to the machine and hitting a couple buttons every 20 mins or so, but i'm satisfied. And Ocd if you haven't figured already...

 

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The 'tumble wash' effect of the vertically spinning drum causes all round turbulence which would provide a better wash quality than in a top loader with a horizontal tub-spin motion.

It can also handle a larger load because the clothes are not dependent on water for buoyancy. But this gets countered with the lack of rinse power of front loaders vs top loaders. So it would seem the trick is to load them less but then this auto load sensing business kicks in and uses less water (!)

Question here, though is rinsing. IMO, from personal experience, i've seen that spin cycles are what kill clothes the fastest.

I've seen you mention this in other threads and wondered why it happens. Why does a spin damage clothes.

if anything an impeler that rotates with clothes inevitably touching as happens in top loader ought to do a much better job at damaging clothes. Front loaders are more gentle on clothes which i would think is an important parameter in their favour.

if you find the drum is damaging clothes then it might have to do with the design of your drum. There is quite some design variance here between vendors. Some drums are easier because they tend to snag clothes less. Ergo spins don't damage clothes as much as with other drums.

I especially hate that automatics do a spin after ever wash and rinse cycle. What i do is manually intervene and after the first wash, drain the water but cancel before the spin. Have it fill water and rinse, then drain and cancel. My cycles total 1 x wash with detergent, 2 x rinse in fresh water and then a final light spin cycle. If there was a lot of detergent used in the wash, then i may have a third rinse or till the water looks clear. It's a bit of a PITA that i have to keep going to the machine and hitting a couple buttons every 20 mins or so, but i'm satisfied. And Ocd if you haven't figured already...

All you want is the freedom to configure your own wash cycle. Not to be told how it should be done. But if companies allowed that then they'd lose those coveted A+ efficiency ratings they so crave.

I don't understand as yet why a spin is even necessary in between rinse cycles. wet the clothes, spin them, wet them spin them. Why not just the final spin at the end.

If you think you're crazy there are people who add water through the detergent dispenser because they think there isn't enough water to do the wash. What these people all miss is the machines of yesterday (less environmentally friendly) that rinsed with lots of water and never gave them any skin problems. Now, since they add more rinse cycles any savings water wise or power wise are moot.

Some of them even run another wash cycle without detergent. So that's 5 rinses now. How long does that wash take

 

[NotMyRealName]

I didn't mean that a front loader spin damages clothes. In fact i've never owned a front loader (used a few for a while though). I meant that a spin cycle in general is very rough on clothes, and clothes that have been through excessive spins show more signs of fraying and loose fibres. Nothing to do with the drum, or agitator/impeller itself, but the sheer violence of the spin itself. Front loaders are probably more gentle during the wash cycles. Btw, someone once told me that hot washes also damage clothes sooner even though they clean better.

The spin between cycles is probably to expel as much soapy water as possible so less water is needed to rinse. My cousin working in chennai, when i visited him, told me to do the spin-between-washes thing on a friggin semi-auto machine after i told him that even after 10 (yes TEN) rinse cycles there was still soap in the water, due to the crappy hard chennai water.

My panasonic top loader, actually has an extra rinse option in one of the programs, but i don't even bother with that because that will be just one more spin cycle in between. So basically i just do three wash cycles, the first with detergent and soak, the next two with plain water on speedy cycle, and then a speedy spin. takes about an 1-1 1/2 hours total including the soak. Works for me, i'm very happy with the wash results.

Interesting article there btw.

 

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Rinsing ability is directly proportional to wash load. I usually find that if I fill 3/4th of the tub with clothes it produces acceptable result. Sometimes I use the "medic rinse" program in my machine (LG) when I feel the wash load is more.

Yes, loading is one factor and looks at it from the other way.

Ever seen white residues on your clothes after washing and thought... “I’ve used too much detergent in that load!” Well, not necessarily! Despite the evidence, the chances are that you’ve actually put too much washing in the load rather than too much detergent!

Today’s energy efficient washing machines use less water. Too much laundry will soak up all of the water so there isn’t enough to completely dissolve the detergent.

To prevent this from happening, leave a gap about the width of your hand between the top of the drum and the laundry.

A washing machine works by immersing the laundry in a solution of water and washing detergent and tumbling it. Modern, low water fill washing machines are designed to use less water, so owners of these should be particularly careful not to overfill. For the best possible results, there has to be enough water for the detergent to dissolve and enough space for your clothes to move around. If the gap between the top of the drum and the laundry is less than a hand’s width, your machine is probably too full. If this is the case, the laundry may soak up so much water that there isn’t enough left to dissolve the detergent!

You should be aware that more delicate fibers and faster wash cycles require a smaller load to give the garments more space to move around.

 

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I meant that a spin cycle in general is very rough on clothes, and clothes that have been through excessive spins show more signs of fraying and loose fibres.

Nothing to do with the drum, or agitator/impeller itself, but the sheer violence of the spin itself.

Don't know what to make of your statement very rough on clothes.

How to define excessive spins ? Is 1200 RPM spin worse than 800 or 400.

If you put wet clothes on a counter and press down on them with your hands that is what a centrifuge does. it seems more gentle than the traditional way of thrashing clothes on a stone like we used to do in the days of yore.

Do the clothes come with washing instructions. If not then its a lottery whether to machine wash or not.

Some clothes should should not be spun and the labels indicate that should be hung to dry.

Front loaders are probably more gentle during the wash cycles. Btw, someone once told me that hot washes also damage clothes sooner even though they clean better.

Temp has to be matched to the material. Some can't take more heat.

The spin between cycles is probably to expel as much soapy water as possible so less water is needed to rinse.

Hmm, by wringing the clothes they will be able to absorb water again otherwise they will just be saturated. So the spin dries them so they are ready for the final rinse cycle. This would removes more soap than if the intermediate spin did not take place.

My cousin working in chennai, when i visited him, told me to do the spin-between-washes thing on a friggin semi-auto machine after i told him that even after 10 (yes TEN) rinse cycles there was still soap in the water, due to the crappy hard chennai water.

Adding more soap to hard water will make it harder to remove. Better to use a water softener and normal amount of washing powder. The detergent labels recommend doubling the dosage in hard water but i don't think its necessary.

It depends on the hardness of the water. If its moderately hard then Ariel contains water softener so you would not need any chemical water softener to be added.





Surf from what i can tell does not have any water softener. Figures, as its cheaper than ariel.

Those two images show the differences in the detergent.

For surf, if its heavily soiled then you need little more soap with hard water instead of double if it was lightly soiled.

But for Ariel same amount is needed regardless of lightly or heavily soiled or hard/soft water if lightly soiled. Its only heavily soiled with hard water that requires a double dose.

The other thing i notice is ariel does not distinguish between front or top loaders, they have one product for both. Whereas Surf has two products. Presumably a low sudsing variant for front loaders.

My panasonic top loader, actually has an extra rinse option in one of the programs, but i don't even bother with that because that will be just one more spin cycle in between. So basically i just do three wash cycles, the first with detergent and soak, the next two with plain water on speedy cycle, and then a speedy spin. takes about an 1-1 1/2 hours total including the soak. Works for me, i'm very happy with the wash results.

Top loaders are always going to be faster at doing the wash. Though i now think those intermediate spins are helping to remove more soap.

 

[tech.addict]

I meant that a spin cycle in general is very rough on clothes, and clothes that have been through excessive spins show more signs of fraying and loose fibres. Nothing to do with the drum, or agitator/impeller itself, but the sheer violence of the spin itself. Front loaders are probably more gentle during the wash cycles.

Actually it is the wash cycle not the spin cycle that damages the clothes. While in wash the clothes are wet and soaked with detergent and they are subject to various motions inside the wash drum. In a front loader the clothes are subject to a fall from top of the drum and it is repeated. In a top loader the clothes are in contact with an agitator which is much more damaging to the clothes as it rubs the clothes physically.

Compared to that when in spin the clothes are kept stationary on the inner surface of the drum and water is extracted from the clothes by centrifugal force. The clothes hardly moves so chance of damaging is almost nil.

However, if you dry the clothes with a high RPM (1200) and keep the clothes in the dryer in semi-wet condition longer before you hang them to dry your clothes may become too much creased.

So hang the clothes to full dry as soon as possible after using the spin dryer.

 

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In a top loader the clothes are in contact with an agitator which is much more damaging to the clothes as it rubs the clothes physically.

This is what i think too but when i consider the laundrettes i've used over the years, every single one of them was a top loader. I don't recall ever noticing clothes being damaged. I always used the cold cycle ie the one at the lowest temperature and dumped everything in. With a liquid detergent.

Compared to that when in spin the clothes are kept stationary on the inner surface of the drum and water is extracted from the clothes by centrifugal force. The clothes hardly moves so chance of damaging is almost nil.

yep

However, if you dry the clothes with a high RPM (1200) and keep the clothes in the dryer in semi-wet condition longer before you hang them to dry your clothes may become too much creased.

So hang the clothes to full dry as soon as possible after using the spin dryer.

This is where the rinse+hold comes in. Avoids the final spin if you're not there to pull the clothes out. So clothes remain wet thereby reducing creasing.

 

[NotMyRealName]

I understand the theory of what you guys are saying, and kinda agree with it too. However, when I was using the previous machine, an lg, and also a whirlpool before that, from the time i figured out to interrupt the spins between cycles and only use the final spin, that too as short as possible, my clothes have had less damage, than when the machines used to do their auto madness. Dunno how to explain it. We could just call it psychological and leave it at that. But i've learnt my lessons, and i will take whatever effort i can to reduce spins when i wash.

Also, I've almost never had creases. I give the clothes a light shake before hanging them, with shirts I usually hang them with the pocket neatly patted in place, ditto with the collar, and other than those annoying cotton shirts that will crease no matter what, most of my shirts dry out looking perfect. I rarely iron my clothes. Just the cotton trousers that will crease and those cotton shirts. Just take a little extra effort hanging to dry.
And the amount of time it takes to line dry clothes that have had a short spin compared to a long 5-10 minute spin is not that much more.

Since, it was mentioned, ima ask, is liquid detergent just a gimmick? Or how is it better?

 

[NotMyRealName]

How to define excessive spins ? Is 1200 RPM spin worse than 800 or 400.
If you put wet clothes on a counter and press down on them with your hands that is what a centrifuge does. it seems more gentle than the traditional way of thrashing clothes on a stone like we used to do in the days of yore.

By excessive spins, i meant the ones between cycles. Not the speed of the spin itself. Also, nothing washes my white bath towels cleaner than my aunt bashing them on the family washing stone back in my native place! Anyway, I was talking spins and not fabric torture...

Temp has to be matched to the material. Some can't take more heat.

What I was told is generally, a hotter wash is more damaging than a cold one. Of course specific temps matter. As well as the material. For example, soft fabric t-shirts should always be hung on a line and not a hanger, or they'll develop hanger-droop. Shirts though, as i've mentioned elsewhere, benefit greatly from properly positioned on a hanger, with the buttons done (even collar), the collar neatly folded and the pocket pressed flat.

The other thing i notice is ariel does not distinguish between front or top loaders, they have one product for both. Whereas Surf has two products. Presumably a low sudsing variant for front loaders.

Aren't all auto detergents supposed to be low suds?

 

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Since, it was mentioned, ima ask, is liquid detergent just a gimmick? Or how is it better?

Supposedly does a better cleaning job at low temps. Does not contain any bleach so safe with colours. The better part i think comes in only if the clothes are more soiled. Lightly soiled and the difference is less noticeable and probably not worth the extra cost.[DOUBLEPOST=1393796068][/DOUBLEPOST]

Aren't all auto detergents supposed to be low suds?

The newer higher end top loaders that use less water require low suds than older ones that use more water.

Noticed on surf's site that they do not recommend LG at all. Anybody else is ok. Though in theory surf's front loading product should work just fine.

Ariel otoh is endorsed by LG.[DOUBLEPOST=1393840257][/DOUBLEPOST]

my clothes have had less damage, than when the machines used to do their auto madness.

But i've learnt my lessons, and i will take whatever effort i can to reduce spins when i wash.

Describe the nature of the damage.

I take it you zip up pants and button up shirts, that you don't mix clothes with abrasive buttons with others. Doing any of these will damage your clothes much more with any machine.

 

[NotMyRealName]

I mentioned it already, mild fraying and those loose fibres etc.

Yes, trousers are zipped, I almost never unbutton my shirts anyway, separate types/colours and do all the other good things. Point I was trying to make is, everything else constant, there was less wear when i started skipping the spin between cycles.

 

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How long would it take to manifest ? a few weeks or over a few months. If its the latter then its harder to pin down.

 

[NotMyRealName]

Honestly, i don't really remember. It's been so many years. All i can remember is there was this phase when my whirlpool would kill brand new clothes (so i'm guessing couple months?) and when i skipped spinning, the clothes survived better.

 

[tech.addict]

I'm using washing machine from 1992. For last three years I'm using a fully automatic front loader. We are a heavy user (use our machines everday at almost full load). After the purchase of the front loader we realized that what we were missing in terms of wash quality!! Never faced any durability issue with durability of clothes!! I still wear clothes that were purchased two years back.

 

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My cousin working in chennai, when i visited him, told me to do the spin-between-washes thing on a friggin semi-auto machine after i told him that even after 10 (yes TEN) rinse cycles there was still soap in the water, due to the crappy hard chennai water.

Going to take another stab at this since i got it wrong last time.

hard water needs more soap to overcome hardness and then some more to wash.

soft water takes less soap to lather up but here is the interesting bit, it requires more water to remove (!) as soap clings to the clothes more in soft water.

hard water is difficult to wash with but does not pose a problem for rinsing, or to remove from clothes since its difficult to get soap into the clothes to begin with.

So its soft water that requires more rinses. Either use less soap or you need more water/rinses to get it off the clothes after. In soft water & lightly soiled better to use less than what the vendor recommends.

That 'soap' you saw in the water isn't soap its soap scum.

Hard water contains dissolved calcium (or magnesium) salts that react with soap solution to form an insoluble scum that should be seen as a white cloudiness