Does your front loader WM rinse well ?

[NotMyRealName]

Your theory is slightly off. Don't wanna get into too much detail but the bottom line is, my soft water in new bombay rinses perfectly clean in 2-3 fresh water rinses without spinning between cycles, while even after 10 rinses, there were still visible suds (scum or whatever) in the machine in chennai. Meaning the rinsing wasn't really happening there without spinning the soap out of the clothes after each cycle. Doesn't matter, i'm never living in chennai after my 2nd visit there, and to top it all even proper beer is incredibly hard to get there. We got some beer called black pearl the last time for 180 bucks a bottle, which i figure is because you will lose one eye and have to wear a pirate patch over it after drinking that crap...

 

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well, you're using a top loader and using a lot of water to do it with so rinsing shouldn't be an issue. Even if you overdo the detergent you won't notice the difference. But with a front loader the right amount of detergent matters, for the load and the water to yield the same result.

What got me thinking was people were putting their towels in water after a wash and finding the water go a bit cloudy. Was that soap or was it residue that had deposited on the clothes. If they washed in hard water then it was residue so does it matter. With hard water they will always have residue. So the hope is more rinses will get it out otherwise you end up with stiff feeling clothes.

What clued me into the soft water thing was when going through the bosch manuals, i came upon the rationale for the rinse plus option..

Rinse plus - Additional rinse cycles,extended washing time. For areas with very soft water or for further improvement of the rinsing result.​

Its soft water that may need more water to get the soap out.

 

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Was chatting with a friend the other day and he tells me his samsung 5kg FL that he bought 2.5 years ago for 22k damages clothes but his whirlpool TL that served him previously for 8 years did not. In short, don't buy this samsung FL.

Strange as we always hear how FL's are supposed to have a gentler wash action and have no agitators or what not. Then i started to research this as i knew he wasn't making things up and it turns out its very easy to damage your clothes in a FL as well as damage the FL itself as well.

The reason a FL washes better is it tumbles the clothes more and mimics hand washing. More friction, the longer the cycle. Soiled clothing is going to get cleaner in a FL than in a TL without extended soaking beforehand. Whereas in a TL, the clothes just swirl around. The clothes don't really rub up against each other as much. This results in poorer cleaning but its more gentle.

He comes from a 4 person household so that's a lot of washing. There is a tendency to overload a washer as a result, so longer wash cycle, more friction and overloading. What do the clothes labels say. If its cotton, the tendency is to use a cotton cycle, which is the most intensive cycle. Now there are lots of cotton, some are more delicate. They shouldn't be washed in a cotton cycle but rather the synthetic cycle. The synthetic cycle in most washers only takes half the load as a harder wearing cotton cycle. Mixing clothes up is going to result in the weaker items taking the brunt over time. Some clothes don't even come with washing labels, as there is no govt requirement in India to do so, its voluntary. Cheaper clothes with cheaper dyes, weaker stitching means even synthetic cycle might be too much friction. You only find out after the fact and over a period of time.

The problem with overloading takes its toll on the machine, its working harder and then it has to spin a heavier load. Takes it toll on the drum support or spider over time. He said he washed at 30 and figured it would be ok. But temperature is just one parameter here.Detergent plays a role too, if its a 40 degree wash you want colour safe detergent. nothing with peroxide in it otherwise colours will fade. Any detergent that advertises oxy or kills germs is out. Has to be colour safe and powder. Liquid tends to gunk up the tub and fabric softener more so, best to use powder. Now too many low temp washes isn't good for the machine. Ideally a whites wash at higher temps with a detergent with bleach once a week is good as it washes out the residue left by the low temp washes that everybody uses for colours and power economy, failing which a monthly maintenance boil wash with the same bleach containing detergent is mandatory at least once a month. Cleans out any bacterial & fungal buildup on the outer tank. Can't kill germs with body temperature water, needs to be over 60, preferably 90. Its weird to think a washing machine needs to take a bath itself but it does to clean out the outer tank or tub that you cannot see as the container in which the water to wash the clothes is contained gets dirty otherwise.

Overdosing detergent leads to more residue and is bad as well. So what is the right dose ? depends on the water, soil level and amount of clothes. Too little leads to an inferior wash. This is where a premium detergent pays for itself over a cheaper one. Generally speaking premium detergents do a better job at low temperatures, than cheaper ones and leave less residue in the drum over time. For reference, lightly soiled is anything that is not in contact with skin and only worn once. Otherwise its medium soil.

Optimal loading for a FL is just under 60% full or a hands width from the top of the port opening. But in many places i find the recommendation of a hands width from the top of the drum which results in 80% full. Ariel themselves recommends this. But i think the 60% load recommendation is safer over the long term as clothes absorb water at different rates so lighter load on the machine means lesser wear & tear on the bearings and better washing & rinsing. And the clothes need to be dropped in and not packed in. Smaller the machine means its harder to follow this rule so sizing based on requirement is important here both for machine longevity as well as clothes. These weight ratings are useless for consumer to gauge capacity as manufacturers employ professional folders to pack the drum solid and then say you can wash so many clothes etc, its complete bunk. To add to the confusion only the cottons wash is to rating spec the rest of the programs are half load or less. In the US FL's are spec'd in terms of drum volume in cubic feet and not weight. Much more useful.

it amazes me that so much needs to be known to optimally use a FL. Very little of this comes into the picture in a TL or at least not to the same extent. Its easy to go wrong with a FL and end up blaming the machine when its operator error.

 

[axeman]

Front loaders are supposed to be more economical in detergent, power consumption , water bla bla (than top loaders)

But does less water used mean less available to rinse well ?

Are you happy with the rinse ability of your front loader ? or do you feel it does not do the job as well.

Note that i'm not asking how well your WM washes clothes, i expect your machines to do well in washing clothes, am asking whether you find not all soap was removed.

as i read around i find people complaining about this inability of front loaders. These people usually have some skin allergy, eczema etc and think there is still detergent left over in the clothes. The flip side is those that do not have these problems have no issue with whether a front loader rinses well or not. They have no complaint.

How to tell if it rinses well, some people put the clothes in a bucket of water and see some soap residue in the water. This does not mean too much but its the simplest way.

One expects there would be as little soap residue after a wash cycle is done.

Have had front loaders at home since 1997. Never had any issues. Of course, make sure you buy a good one and not something which has been made to a cut/ low price. Like everything, you get what you pay for.

If you are looking to buy a new one, let me know, and we can discuss.

 

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Have had front loaders at home since 1997. Never had any issues. Of course, make sure you buy a good one and not something which has been made to a cut/ low price. Like everything, you get what you pay for.

How many FL's have you been through since then, mention the brands and repairs history. And what is the avg number of washes per week. Trying to get an idea of life of these units.

If you are looking to buy a new one, let me know, and we can discuss.

Getting close to finalising so will start a new thread.

 

[axeman]

How many FL's have you been through since then, mention the brands and repairs history. And what is the avg number of washes per week. Trying to get an idea of life of these units.


Getting close to finalising so will start a new thread.

Brands have varied from Siemens to Indesit to 'local / unbranded' here in Mumbai to current LG. Our machine is often used twice daily, size always 6kg+ in current terms. A machine on an average lasts us 8 years. Note that the Siemens was left behind with the house and the local was thrown out since it was relentless.

 

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2 washes a day for around 8 years translates roughly into 5k+ washes. That's double the duty cycles of what a midrange can manage. Read this article and tell me what you think. By their reckoning you would have seen problems around the 4 yr mark. So either you've managed to beat the average by a large margin or their estimates are very conservative for mid ranges.

Have you ever had bearings changes or drum/spider replacement done on any of your machines. With the cheaper machines ie 6kg and under these repairs will be disproportionate to the cost of the original cost but with a mid-range, it could save you an even higher replacement cost of a new machine later taking inflation into account. As once the bearings are replaced you can count on a few years extra. The sign is usually the machine making more noise than earlier and getting progressively louder over time. Course if the spider breaks there is a risk of the tub being damaged too which would make repairs prohibitive. Have to catch it before this happens.

Since your size was always 6kg+ you just broke into the mid range. All the under 6kg+ are entry level. I've noticed that those weightings have increased over the years, probably more powerful motors but the drum capacities remains the same so a 5.2, 5.5 or even 6 all have the same drum capacity. Same with a 6.5, 7 & 7.5. Build quality is the same between models of the same brand just larger capacity and more features for the higher price.

 

[axeman]

Not many problems. Indesit rusted in Mumbai weather, and the rubber cover around the door tore up once. Needed replacement. Local one was made by someone who supplied to industry (hotels) and had started to get into the household segment. He has ended up making machines for the known brands. That one had cracked rear hose and jammed filter once, but never any other issue. LG has not needed anything so far.

This usage is normal for our household. Yours may vary.

Add : water is not hard or highly chlorinated. Always use detergent from ariel for front loaders. There was another brand preferred earlier, can't recollect the name, I think acquired by a larger brand.

Add 2: always made sure the drums are stainless steel, and local one, body as well. The body is the first part to give up in coastal areas. Plus no overloading or stuffing.

 

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Since you mentioned Ariel, have you ever tried the colour & style variant or do you only use the matic one which has the front loader image on it. This is good for the machine but i think it will be harder on colours. Matic is good for whites at 60.

I don't see too much suds with the Ariel colour version over the matic and its cheaper too but no front loader image on it. Not sure but i think the only difference is the presence of peroxide bleach in the matic and no bleach for the colour which means colour& style is the right one to use with coloureds. Course a boil wash at the end of the month with either henko or ariel matic is needed. If you only use matic then you're good but i have to think colours will fade sooner than otherwise. Bleach does not need high temps to do its job, low temps work just fine.

What dosage do you follow ? std 60 gm full scoop or less with a full load, say for medium soil since your water isn't hard.

Ariel is what the repair guys recommend, better washing at low temps and better for the machine as well. It will also soften hard water in larger doses. Hard water need a detergent that does this otherwise there will be scale buildup. You'd never think the kind of detergent you use affects the machine but the repair guys say it does.

Ariel is the premium product from P& G and Tide is the value product. Abroad surf is considered value and persil is the premium. We don't get persil over here and surf has been in the country for very long. Going by pricing surf sells at just 10% less for the same weight. I don't see any germ killing advertised on surf so their front loader variant should be good for colours but not for whites. If only surf is used for low temp washes then a monthly maintenance wash at high temp is necessary.

What i've yet to find out is whether ariel colour or surf matic use enzymes. At low temps ie 40, enzymes clean better than without. i see the words bio used in ariel abroad but it does not appear on the ariel or surf packaging here. Instead we see better stain removal for both.

 

[axeman]

Since you mentioned Ariel, have you ever tried the colour & style variant or do you only use the matic one which has the front loader image on it. This is good for the machine but i think it will be harder on colours. Matic is good for whites at 60.

I don't see too much suds with the Ariel colour version over the matic and its cheaper too but no front loader image on it. Not sure but i think the only difference is the presence of peroxide bleach in the matic and no bleach for the colour which means colour& style is the right one to use with coloureds. Course a boil wash at the end of the month with either henko or ariel matic is needed. If you only use matic then you're good but i have to think colours will fade sooner than otherwise. Bleach does not need high temps to do its job, low temps work just fine.

What dosage do you follow ? std 60 gm full scoop or less with a full load, say for medium soil since your water isn't hard.

Ariel is what the repair guys recommend, better washing at low temps and better for the machine as well. It will also soften hard water in larger doses. Hard water need a detergent that does this otherwise there will be scale buildup. You'd never think the kind of detergent you use affects the machine but the repair guys say it does.

Ariel is the premium product from P& G and Tide is the value product. Abroad surf is considered value and persil is the premium. We don't get persil over here and surf has been in the country for very long. Going by pricing surf sells at just 10% less for the same weight. I don't see any germ killing advertised on surf so their front loader variant should be good for colours but not for whites. If only surf is used for low temp washes then a monthly maintenance wash at high temp is necessary.

What i've yet to find out is whether ariel colour or surf matic use enzymes. At low temps ie 40, enzymes clean better than without. i see the words bio used in ariel abroad but it does not appear on the ariel or surf packaging here. Instead we see better stain removal for both.

Standard ariel. Also never bleach or blue in the machines. Always have that done by hand, rinsing etc in the machine in such cases. Dosage is related to amount of clothes that go inside.

We also clean our small rugs, blankets, curtains etc in the machine.

 

[blr_p]

Standard ? standard has pictures of hand wash & top loader on the back. Now, there is also a front load variant which they charge more for. From what i can tell the only difference between standard and matic/front-o-mat is that its a low suds formula.

Have you noticed any excess suds/foaming with ariel standard compared to matic. If not i don't see why to pay more for the matic version. Both products are essentially the same.

I am assuming that you are dosing correctly. Ariel recommends 60gm (one full scoop) for a 80% full drum with soft water and normal load ie not too heavy with light to medium soil.

By bleach i was referring to oxygen bleach which ariel standard and henko oxy incorporate, its a peroxide based bleach. Ordinary bleaching powder ie hypochlorite or Clorox should never be used in a FL as it will corrode the aluminium alloy drum support and destroy the stainless steel drum.

Another thing i can confirm is both surf & ariel contain enzymes, they are biological powders. So they will do a better job at stain removal in low temps than detergents that do not contain enzymes. The proof is they both companies advise not to use their products on natural fibres like wool or silk as enzymes will destroy these fibres.

 

[Criminal]

Have you noticed any excess suds/foaming with ariel standard compared to matic. If not i don't see why to pay more for the matic version. Both products are essentially the same.

i've noticed that the costly matic branded powders produce almost no foam. the regular stuff creates a mess in washing machines.

 

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That's the idea of low suds, otherwise the foam gets in the way of cleaning and can create a suds lock. There had to be a purpose for introducing ariel front-o-mat/matic in the first place so i wonder how axeman manages.

From what i can tell surf matic does not advertise it has any bleach but the ingredients list mentions it. Surf india tells me its safe for colours & whites. This is actually a compromise. it will bleach colours more than a product that is colour safe and won't clean whites or rather disinfect them at higher temps as well as one that contains oxygen bleach.

 

[tech.addict]

I once used Ariel for toploader in my FL - it was a mess!!
I don't like the smell of Ariel so I use Henko for FL. I used Surf excel FL too but Henko is cheaper and cleans similar. If you need bleach for your whites wash them separately and add some Vanish along with the detergent.

 

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So when axeman says 'regular' what he really means is ariel matic or front o mat as it used to be called earlier. That is the only ariel product that will not over foam with FL's. Every other product in the ariel range is for top loaders. They are most likely going to over foam if used in a FL.

The problem with matic when using with colours is that it will bleach them over time. Slowly but surely. The same will apply for Henko matic which advertises oxy clean or oxygen bleach. Has anyone noticed this ? I certainly did with ariel matic in a load of dark colours in a white twin tub. Did not happen with surf matic or ariel colour & style. You can't easily see the colour of the water in a FL without a nice white background and then the water drains out which you can't see either.

henko matic & ariel matic are meant to be used for whites and run at 60 degrees hence the bleach for whiter whites. Works better than just optical brighteners. They can also be used for maintenance washes as they will help to disinfect the outer tub. Vanish is just a pot of bleach with some perfume that is expensive, its not needed. Henko or ariel matic both contain bleach and will do the same. Ariel matic says its suitable for top loaders too, why pay 20% more when ariel complete & colour & style already exist for top loaders. No need for ariel matic in a top loader.

Surf matic is an interesting one, it does not advertise oxy anything, no germ killing mentioned on the packaging either. But when i asked them to send me a list of ingredients i noticed bleaching agent in the list. i find this curious. Others say they kill germs or do whiter whites but surf does not. Leading me to think this is the one to use for colours in front loaders. As Surf matic contains less bleach than ariel matic or henko matic. Thing is if you only use surf with 40 degrees washes, you need to run a boil maintenance wash once a month with henko or ariel matic. Tide could be a cheaper substitute here as i think it contains bleach too but no enzymes. No need for enzymes in a boil wash as they don't work at high temperature anyway.

Its so much simpler in the uk, there is a ariel for whites and there is an ariel for colours. two detergents for two different purposes, like there is with ariel but only or top loaders in india. These 2-in-1 products are a compromise of sorts. Consider why does ariel even offer colour & style for top loaders if Ariel complete will do the job in the first place ? Ariel colour does not contain any bleach. It wont fade colours, its meant to be used for colours only. Just cannot use it in a FL

Ariel & surf will not accept this. Naturally as they don't offer products to do this specifically as yet in india for front loaders.[DOUBLEPOST=1397074419][/DOUBLEPOST]

I don't like the smell of Ariel so I use Henko for FL.

Hehe, ariel had a problem with this in India and had to introduce an additional product with a different perfume. It was called spring clean. Don't see it any more so i guess they've since blended perfumes in their latest repackaging for this decade.

It seems what smells 'clean' differs between cultures

 

[?dOuBtFiRe?]

So what exactly is best to use with FL Washing Machines.

 

[superczar]

Thats a long thread for sure - Here are my two paisas to the thread..
I've been using Surf Excel Front Load powder for the last several years (Think it's surf - Purple box with a pink/orange smudge is what I remember)
Also use a fabric softener in the additive chamber- Cant remember the brand .. Tallish bottle, rather nice and fresh fragrance -
Post the wash, I dump the half dry load into a Front loading dryer (dunno if there are any top loading dryers)
Never had any problems with clothes dying early or detergent residue being left on clothes
I suspect detergent residue will remain if you use a normal detergent (designed to froth a lot) or a top loader detergent

 

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So what exactly is best to use with FL Washing Machines.

heh, i'm been trying to work this one out. surf excel matic at low temps, henko matic or ariel matic at higher temps.

Depends what temperature the bleach gets activated. If these companies tell us which oxygen bleach is used. Oxygen bleach is supposedly colour safe. But there are different kinds of oxygen bleach.

sodium perborate only gets activated 60 degres and above. If that's what is used in these powders then so long as you stick to 40 degrees for colours there should be minimal colour run.

sodium percarbonate activates at lower than 60 degrees, this one will start bleaching/disinfecting at a lower temp.

percarbonate is more expensive than perborate and i notice the cost of ariel is half over here compared to in the uk. in the uk ariel sees the need to provide a colour version ie without bleach. so maybe they use percarbonate in the regular for uk. Whereas in india they gives us a 2 in one. suitable for colours & whites. So maybe they're using perborate here. This is my conjecture. Surf is also a 2 in one.

One thing is sure, no matter which powder you use, a maintenance boil wash once a month is required to disinfect the tank. As minimal bleaching/disinfecting takes place at lower temps.[DOUBLEPOST=1397126983][/DOUBLEPOST]

I suspect detergent residue will remain if you use a normal detergent (designed to froth a lot) or a top loader detergent

My take on the rinse problem is people were overloading AND using a liquid detergent. People use liquid because it dissolves better so it needs more water to remove. There is no need to use liquids. powders will work fine.

 

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On another forum i read that regular as in the top loading detergent does not over foam in a FL so long as its on 30 or 40 degree washes. It's the 60 to 90 degree washes that cause the foaming. Cannot use intensive wash option either.

can anyone confirm this works using the dosage recommended by the soap maker on a full load ?

 

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Thinking about washing machines again

Detergents and dosage. Depends on 3 factors.
- water hardness
- how soiled the clothes are
- quantity of laundry

Of late i've noticed more fomaing when using ariel. This is with a full load and recommended amount of detergent ie one scoop = 60gms.

could not figure it out until i did a water hardness test. When i did the test back in Jan i got a reading of somewhere between 150-175mg. Tested it few days back and it was 100-125mg. So the rainy season means softer water. Softer water means less detergent required. Using 45gms on a full load now and half that if less. Course the tricky thing here is when hardness does increase, and you do not relaise it you will beusing less detergent than you need to. So only do it if you can test your water.

Don't see as much foam with surf. makes me think it's constituted for a different water hardness.

Ariel is set higher than the surf.