Ssreek
Herald
This is weird.
How to clean the inside of a washing machine and keep it that way
- Thread starter blr_p
- Start date
rr9
Forerunner
SkyWreak
Discoverer
Are i was aking photos of exactly which parts of washing machine ?? Or just random clicks which were taken for reference.
blr_p
Oracle
Did you use Vanish at all? that should have handled any sludge. Citric acid would have taken care of the scaling. I asked for feedback but you never replied back.
Granted a manual cleaning is the best but the purpose here is not to have to dismantle the machine if at all possible.
It sounds like the machine got stuck and no cleaning cycle would have helped so you went with disassembly.
Wish you mentioned you planned to do a dismantle so we could have given you some pointers on what to document.
Photos showing the state of the drum and tub as you described. For example or here
What state was the drum spider in? this is the most important part but you didn't mention it.
This would then help to come up with ways that avoid what happened with your machine or at least reduce the problem. At just five years old there was a lot of residue for the pump to get clogged. Sounds like it was never maintained or whatever you used for cleaning did not work.
This problem will recur with any front loader you get in the future in as little time if you do not make changes to how you use the machine.
So what changes will you make in how you use the machine based on what you saw?
What detergent did you use? what temperature washes. What wash cycle do you usually use. How often you maintained the machine if at all and what you used.
Was it really scaling you saw or just cheap detergent residue. Do you have hard water?
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SkyWreak
Discoverer
No i didn't used the vanish and citric acid , my laziness and availability of IFB descal in home to blame here (I know you said that the stuff doesn't work but i thought it will be be better that nothing).
Last cleaning with the desacal was done about a month back .
The machine was getting stuck every time at drain cycle due to clog in the waste water route, so i skipped the chemical clean and went with a manual disassembly just to pressure wash each and everything
(No electronic components were harmed ).
Actually parents told me to call the tech but the DIYer in me woke up and i just started to dismantle the machine without properly documenting anything
(Just took the pics so i don't forget the wire and plumbing connections ).
Here are some pics which i hope will help in assessing the deposits
It had corrosion all over not as bad which is shown Here But it will not hold for another 5 years . The drum had deposits at outer surface (Looked like hardwater deposits).
The heater coil was covered in about half mm of deposits . tried every non abrasive method but it was really hard to remove finally dipped it in diluted acid(bathroom cleaner) and scrubbed with utensil scrubber. the deposits somewhat came off the not satisfactory.
By the assessment i think i will do the cleaning cycle every month instead of the 3 month which i use to do . (Using Vanish and citric acid from now on.)
Ghadi Machine wash OR surf excel matic powder is mostly used (added directly to drum with cloths ) .
Quick Wash or Cotton normal washing cycle is used according to the load (Other ones are also used but rarely, these two are mostly used)
Quick wash - 800 RPM / 40 c - 60c temp / extra rinse.
Cotton normal - 1400 RPM / 40c temp / extra rinse / prewash (extra detergent is added in the detergent box for actual wash cycle )
Yes we have hard water here . TDS is about 900 - 1100 .
rr9
Forerunner
Interesting is how the outside of the inner drum is so dirty but the outside dum is not
@blr_p Interesting how the Lyzol working on the grime here is very well demonstrated.
update: the Lyzol in the video is Lysol Hydrogen Peroxide Multi Purpose Cleaner
Lyzol floor cleaner ingredient list from amazon : Benzalkonium chloride solution, Tetra sodium EDTA, Isopropyl alcohol, propan-1-2-di-ol, perfume
Not sure how these two compares.
@blr_p I did a time lapse of the Tub Clean Cycle of my Samsung top loader 2 HR total time shown
@blr_p Interesting how the Lyzol working on the grime here is very well demonstrated.
update: the Lyzol in the video is Lysol Hydrogen Peroxide Multi Purpose Cleaner
Lyzol floor cleaner ingredient list from amazon : Benzalkonium chloride solution, Tetra sodium EDTA, Isopropyl alcohol, propan-1-2-di-ol, perfume
Not sure how these two compares.
@blr_p I did a time lapse of the Tub Clean Cycle of my Samsung top loader 2 HR total time shown
WASH : Fill full tub water : WATER IN
WASH : wait till 95 min : WAIT 15 min
WASH : Spin for a few secs at 95 min : SPIN
WASH : wait till 90 min : WAIT 5 min
WASH : Spin for a few secs at 90 min : SPIN
WASH : wait till 85 min : WAIT 5 min
WASH : Drops full tub water at 80 min mark : WATER OUT
WASH : Spin for a few secs at 80 min : SPIN
RINSE : Half tub water start 77 min to 71min : WATER IN (half? maybe a bit more)
RINSE : Tumble from 71min till 51min : TUMBLE 20 min
RINSE : Drops water at 50 min mark : WATER OUT
RINSE : Spin empty from 50 min till 40 min : SPIN 10 min
RINSE : Fill water till 33 min rem : WATER IN (75%? maybe full)
RINSE : Tumble from 33 min till 13 min rem : TUMBLE 20 min
SPIN : Drops water at 13min rem : WATER OUT
SPIN : Spin till 0 min : SPIN 10 min
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blr_p
Oracle
After years of searching, I'm now confident as to the reason for spider failures or why the drum support in a front loader gets corroded. It's called microbial corrosion, biocorrosion or microbe influenced/induced corrosion.
It's actually a fungus or mould that likes crevices which are plenty inside a washing machine given how the tubs are constructed. What happens is the fungus settles on the drum support. With time it grows colonies. If cold washes are common these colonies expand. With time they develop a slime or biofilm. This acts as a shield and protects them. What causes the damage is due to metabolism this fungus secretes acetic acid and it is this acid that corrodes the aluminium alloy spider over time. The guys over at UKwg have been explaining it this way for years but that term I bolded was missing and it made no sense to me how microbes could attack metal. Well, they can. Now you can google it and understand more. In some videos, I saw it can even affect concrete pipes used for sewage. Dissolves the concrete away and those are several inches thick.
The remedy is to disrupt the formation of these colonies early on. It becomes harder later because once the biofilm forms it acts as a protective barrier for the damn critters. That guy telling me he got 18 years of use in a hard water area is mind-blowing. I'd have thought ten years in a hard water area would be pretty good going given the average is half that but you can see why the Lysol helps. I will comment later about the dosage as I think it needs to be more than mentioned on the bottle.
Cleaning (tub cleans every 30 washes), sanitising (boil wash with nothing once a month or frequent hot temperature washes) and biocide (think Lyzol, oxygen bleach etc). This pretty much matches what I've heard repair guys advise to maintain the machine and now I understand why. Lysol is a new discovery.
A second less common reason is aggressive or corrosive water. Read this and you can see water testing is required. Water that is acidic. Frequently soft water that corrodes pipes like copper and lead under certain conditions. We don't have those pipes here since PVC is used and there will be no signs like blue stains as would happen with copper pipes. Happens with untreated well water or borewell water. This is less common. For most people on city water, the first reason is the main culprit.
So many reasons I've heard over the years are incorrect. Galvanic corrosion is a common one which is wrong. I knew it was chemical corrosion but did not realise the mechanism. People going on about how a front loader has a design flaw are also clueless as to the causes. If the drum support was made of steel instead of aluminium alloy it would last longer. True but eventually even the steel would get attacked.
Now if you have hard water, scale will form over the biofilm and act as a further barrier. Unless you remove the scale you can't get at the microbes. So people think hard water causes corrosion. Indirectly it does. The use of fabric softener creates a greasy film over the biofilm which again is difficult to remove. Cheap detergent that coats everything inside the machine and does not dissolve is also a reason.
If you have not maintained your front loader for several years chances are the spider is already corroded and there is little that can be done to save it. It will break over time. What you can do is delay that a little. Whereas if you are regular with cleaning from the start you can enjoy your machine for many years to come. 10 to 14 years if not more.
It's actually a fungus or mould that likes crevices which are plenty inside a washing machine given how the tubs are constructed. What happens is the fungus settles on the drum support. With time it grows colonies. If cold washes are common these colonies expand. With time they develop a slime or biofilm. This acts as a shield and protects them. What causes the damage is due to metabolism this fungus secretes acetic acid and it is this acid that corrodes the aluminium alloy spider over time. The guys over at UKwg have been explaining it this way for years but that term I bolded was missing and it made no sense to me how microbes could attack metal. Well, they can. Now you can google it and understand more. In some videos, I saw it can even affect concrete pipes used for sewage. Dissolves the concrete away and those are several inches thick.
The remedy is to disrupt the formation of these colonies early on. It becomes harder later because once the biofilm forms it acts as a protective barrier for the damn critters. That guy telling me he got 18 years of use in a hard water area is mind-blowing. I'd have thought ten years in a hard water area would be pretty good going given the average is half that but you can see why the Lysol helps. I will comment later about the dosage as I think it needs to be more than mentioned on the bottle.
Cleaning (tub cleans every 30 washes), sanitising (boil wash with nothing once a month or frequent hot temperature washes) and biocide (think Lyzol, oxygen bleach etc). This pretty much matches what I've heard repair guys advise to maintain the machine and now I understand why. Lysol is a new discovery.
A second less common reason is aggressive or corrosive water. Read this and you can see water testing is required. Water that is acidic. Frequently soft water that corrodes pipes like copper and lead under certain conditions. We don't have those pipes here since PVC is used and there will be no signs like blue stains as would happen with copper pipes. Happens with untreated well water or borewell water. This is less common. For most people on city water, the first reason is the main culprit.
So many reasons I've heard over the years are incorrect. Galvanic corrosion is a common one which is wrong. I knew it was chemical corrosion but did not realise the mechanism. People going on about how a front loader has a design flaw are also clueless as to the causes. If the drum support was made of steel instead of aluminium alloy it would last longer. True but eventually even the steel would get attacked.
Now if you have hard water, scale will form over the biofilm and act as a further barrier. Unless you remove the scale you can't get at the microbes. So people think hard water causes corrosion. Indirectly it does. The use of fabric softener creates a greasy film over the biofilm which again is difficult to remove. Cheap detergent that coats everything inside the machine and does not dissolve is also a reason.
If you have not maintained your front loader for several years chances are the spider is already corroded and there is little that can be done to save it. It will break over time. What you can do is delay that a little. Whereas if you are regular with cleaning from the start you can enjoy your machine for many years to come. 10 to 14 years if not more.
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Finally found this thread and gave a quick read through. Thanks @blr_p for all the research and insights on maintaining a washing machine.
I did a tub clean (without any additives) on my LG 7kg FL yesterday for the first time after buying it almost 6 months back. The cycle timer was 1 hour 15 mins. The panel did not show the water temp and RPM. I have taken some videos of it running. Will post later.
Did notice some small particles in the water when it was running. Also felt a lot of heat coming off the glass door. Foam did not build up much and anything that built up died down quickly once the water settled. The machine sprayed water all sides. Given that there was no clothes the noise was much higher than a normal cycle. Did not notice any smells in the tub.
Now should I run a cycle with descaler/ citric acid or Vanish? Need to get hold of some fresh whites/ mops to run if required. Should I choose tub clean for cirtric acid and vanish or regular wash cycle?
Citric acid - Any links for prime fulfilled options? Also Vanish powder has 2 options - Pink and White - Which one to get?
I did a tub clean (without any additives) on my LG 7kg FL yesterday for the first time after buying it almost 6 months back. The cycle timer was 1 hour 15 mins. The panel did not show the water temp and RPM. I have taken some videos of it running. Will post later.
Did notice some small particles in the water when it was running. Also felt a lot of heat coming off the glass door. Foam did not build up much and anything that built up died down quickly once the water settled. The machine sprayed water all sides. Given that there was no clothes the noise was much higher than a normal cycle. Did not notice any smells in the tub.
Now should I run a cycle with descaler/ citric acid or Vanish? Need to get hold of some fresh whites/ mops to run if required. Should I choose tub clean for cirtric acid and vanish or regular wash cycle?
Citric acid - Any links for prime fulfilled options? Also Vanish powder has 2 options - Pink and White - Which one to get?
blr_p
Oracle
You need a biocide. There are two options Vanish or Lizol
50gm of Vanish with some mops should work in a tub clean cycle OR a scoop full (60ml) of Lizol directly in the drum with a mop or two in a Cottons 65 with Intensive option selected.
Citric acid will have to be run separately and you will need 100gm or two scoops (the kind we used to get with detergent) in a tub clean
With Lizol you can mix the two as they do not react with each other. So the citric acid goes in the drawer and the Lizol in the drum.
How hard is your water?
2kg Citric Acid
I'd run a boil wash that is cottons 95 with nothing at least once a month.
If you can post a full video that would be good. Just to see whether there is any change from earlier models. I don't expect it though.
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blr_p
Oracle
Why I don't recommend fabric softener. Just see the residue it leaves on the drum. If you must use it then be regular with maintenance.
Very simple tip by this Kenyan repair guy. Always power off at the mains outlet when done. No chance of surges affecting the electronics during thunderstorms.
Something most won't think of. Cockroaches can take out a control board
Though less likely with LG's as their boards are covered in epoxy. No component level fixes possible but then chances of failure from things like this is less.Finally, a mystery problem explained. Some years back a relative of mine complained his Samsung front loader was tearing clothes.
Turns out the older Samsung models had a gap between the drum and the gasket. And during the spin cycle clothes could get caught in there and tear. This gap can also eat up small items like socks so a washer bag as he recommends to wash smaller items is mandatory if you don't want t call service because a sock ended up blocking the drain pump.
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rr9
Forerunner
This is same too. Right?
blr_p
Oracle
For the purposes of descaling, I don't think there is a difference. One is food grade while the other is not.
Helps to look at pricing which seems similar. I don't know what you could adulterate citric acid with to make it cheaper.
Buying in bulk is easier than smaller packs as if stored correctly in an air-tight container citric acid won't spoil.
blr_p
Oracle
Specifically, yes and in the amount specified.
My concern is the amount specified by India Lizol to clean the floor isn't enough for a machine so I've quadrupled the dose to match the recommended dose abroad.
in India they mention a capful or 15ml per 4 litres water to clean the floor. In the UK or US, the amount is 60ml or two caps. See here for the American Lysol
Says to use 2 oz (60ml) per US gallon which is just under 4 litres.
Or consider the British equivalent which is called Flash and it says two caps which is 2 x 30ml per five litres of water.
There seems to be some standard abroad with dosage for these products.
But the Indian instructions say capful or 15ml per four litres.
I don't believe the Indian version is 4x more concentrated than the American variant
My concern with using this product for the intended purpose isn't health related or whether it will harm the machine.
My concern is it not working because it was underdosed and I did not receive the benefit of using it.
So I'd rather hit the machine with a proper dose and have the peace of mind it is doing EXACTLY what I intend it to do.
With a regular wash of five litres of water use a scoop full. But if you use LG's tub clean which uses 15 litres of water then you need to use three scoops or 150ml
I ran 60ml with a Cottons 65 wash and there was a nice lemony scent coming from the machine which I did not sense when I used just a capful of 15ml
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Cool there are laundry sanitizers available in the market, I guess with the same composition.Specifically, yes and in the amount specified.
My concern is the amount specified by India Lizol to clean the floor isn't enough for a machine so I've quadrupled the dose to match the recommended dose abroad.
in India they mention a capful or 15ml per 4 litres water to clean the floor. In the UK or US, the amount is 60ml or two caps. See here for the American Lysol
Says to use 2 oz (60ml) per US gallon which is just under 4 litres.
Or consider the British equivalent which is called Flash and it says two caps which is 2 x 30ml per five litres of water.
There seems to be some standard abroad with dosage for these products.
But the Indian instructions say capful or 15ml per four litres.
I don't believe the Indian version is 4x more concentrated than the American variant
My concern with using this product for the intended purpose isn't health related or whether it will harm the machine.
My concern is it not working because it was underdosed and I did not receive the benefit of using it.
So I'd rather hit the machine with a proper dose and have the peace of mind it is doing EXACTLY what I intend it to do.
With a regular wash of five litres of water use a scoop full. But if you use LG's tub clean which uses 15 litres of water then you need to use three scoops or 150ml
I ran 60ml with a Cottons 65 wash and there was a nice lemony scent coming from the machine which I did not sense when I used just a capful of 15ml
blr_p
Oracle
Yes, for removing smells from laundry. But here I'm using Lizol to clean the machine. Non-targeted products work out cheaper.
Dettol no longer sells its sanitizer product in India so Savlon is the next equivalent. Mentioned here
The composition is similar. Both have QATS to deal with microbes. Lizol works out slightly cheaper per litre if you go with larger volumes.
Of interest is the dosage Savlon & Dettol recommend. Savlon says to use 80ml (or two caps full) per laundry load in the last rinse which is around 15 litres in front loaders. So clearly Lizol's 15ml one cap direction to clean floors isn't adequate for cleaning machines.
The second interesting point is that Savlon also says to use the same amount in semi-automatics that use much more water. That means you don't need to use a proportionately higher dose of Lizol due to the larger volume of water in top loaders as I previously thought.
Dettol recommends a full cap which works out to 120ml in the rinse cycle.
So a full detergent scoop (60ml) of Lizol in a cottons cycle with five litres of water or 3 scoops (180ml) in LG's tub clean cycle should be about right to get the job done
If you add 100gm of citric acid to the drawer. You have a DIY two-in-one descaler & cleaner with less foaming. Always add Lizol directly to the drum. There won't be any residues left behind in the drawer that way.
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blr_p
Oracle
This video is not as complicated as it sounds but it makes the point I'm driving at very well.
TAED is an oxygen bleach activator found in Vanish powder. It mixes with sodium percarbonate to produce peracetic acid that enables cleaning at temperatures as low as 30 degrees. That is how just soaking in Vanish is good enough to loosen stains. Otherwise, heat is required when using plain percarbonate and the water temperature needs to be a minimum of 50 degrees. So TAED is an innovation that allows lower temperature cleaning.
What surprised me is in their research they found bacteria growth after just 30 washes. So I guess that's where the recommendation from Afresh to use their tablets every 40 washes comes from. Do the same with Vanish as recommended or Lizol+citric acid with the same frequency.
TAED is an oxygen bleach activator found in Vanish powder. It mixes with sodium percarbonate to produce peracetic acid that enables cleaning at temperatures as low as 30 degrees. That is how just soaking in Vanish is good enough to loosen stains. Otherwise, heat is required when using plain percarbonate and the water temperature needs to be a minimum of 50 degrees. So TAED is an innovation that allows lower temperature cleaning.
The reason is there is as yet no known way to include oxygen bleach in a stable state in liquid detergents. Only powders. This is why Vanish powder contains oxygen bleach and liquid Vanish does not. Liquid Vanish uses optical brighteners instead and will not clean a machine or kill any bacteria.
Since no powder detergent in India includes oxygen bleach, just add some Vanish to the powder. Say 10gm Vanish for every 30gm of detergent powder per wash. The idea here is if you do it every wash the machine will remain clean and not need the second option. But will work out more expensive over time.
See the first post in the thread, where Vanish is suggested as a machine cleaner
This option is unavailable in India as it refers to detergents containing oxygen bleach with TAED.
What surprised me is in their research they found bacteria growth after just 30 washes. So I guess that's where the recommendation from Afresh to use their tablets every 40 washes comes from. Do the same with Vanish as recommended or Lizol+citric acid with the same frequency.
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blr_p
Oracle
From Electrolux Thailand
They recommend using 2-3 caps (presumably 60-90ml) of an "antiseptic disinfectant" on a Cottons 90 cycle to deal with bad smells. I say don't wait for smells and be regular with maintenance.
When you look at the bottle, it reminds me of regular Dettol Antiseptic
No clear instructions about cleaning surfaces. Just says to dilute but not by how much. But Dettol also has another product called Dettol Disinfectant
Comes in three scents. They're calling it a modern, multipurpose hygiene liquid. But you can't use it to treat wounds like the previous one.
This one mentions floor cleaning as well as working as a laundry sanitizer. Maybe this is why they discontinued their earlier laundry sanitiser product. And the interesting part is it says one cap at 15ml per litre. Which means 60ml per four litres or in line with the dosage mentioned previously. It also features the same ingredient Benzylalkonium chloride as Lizol.
They recommend it for shaving and bathing so these chemicals are definitely safe from a health perspective in the machine. In fact I'd argue the opposite, a mouldy machine is more health endangering than a clean one
The only difference is the price is Rs.100 more for the volume compared to Lizol. Don't know why. Mabe Lizol sells in much larger volumes given they offer them in 5L packages.
If Dettol makes it then so does Savlon.
Savlon calls it a Multipurpose Disinfectant Cleaner. Sounds good. Same chemicals, same dosage. The only problem is it's more expensive than Dettol Disinfectant and twice the cost of Lizol. Cheaper to buy the 500ml Savlon bottles instead
I'm glad we've established the 60ml per four litres though
They recommend using 2-3 caps (presumably 60-90ml) of an "antiseptic disinfectant" on a Cottons 90 cycle to deal with bad smells. I say don't wait for smells and be regular with maintenance.
When you look at the bottle, it reminds me of regular Dettol Antiseptic
No clear instructions about cleaning surfaces. Just says to dilute but not by how much. But Dettol also has another product called Dettol Disinfectant
Comes in three scents. They're calling it a modern, multipurpose hygiene liquid. But you can't use it to treat wounds like the previous one.
This one mentions floor cleaning as well as working as a laundry sanitizer. Maybe this is why they discontinued their earlier laundry sanitiser product. And the interesting part is it says one cap at 15ml per litre. Which means 60ml per four litres or in line with the dosage mentioned previously. It also features the same ingredient Benzylalkonium chloride as Lizol.
They recommend it for shaving and bathing so these chemicals are definitely safe from a health perspective in the machine. In fact I'd argue the opposite, a mouldy machine is more health endangering than a clean one
The only difference is the price is Rs.100 more for the volume compared to Lizol. Don't know why. Mabe Lizol sells in much larger volumes given they offer them in 5L packages.
If Dettol makes it then so does Savlon.
Savlon calls it a Multipurpose Disinfectant Cleaner. Sounds good. Same chemicals, same dosage. The only problem is it's more expensive than Dettol Disinfectant and twice the cost of Lizol. Cheaper to buy the 500ml Savlon bottles instead
I'm glad we've established the 60ml per four litres though
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Common/Very useful topic but way too lengthy..
We use a Samsung top loading washing machine 6.5 kg (as suggested by a member on this forum).
We clean it once a month with default machine parameters with liquid dish cleaner (entire process takes 2 hours, water is filled upto top most level = 5)
I hope if there is something more to do ?
We use a Samsung top loading washing machine 6.5 kg (as suggested by a member on this forum).
We clean it once a month with default machine parameters with liquid dish cleaner (entire process takes 2 hours, water is filled upto top most level = 5)
I hope if there is something more to do ?