@BullettuPaandi
> Granted, I didn't know about all these supplements available for anyone without a prescription. I didn't know people just buy these supplements out of their own whim.
There is huge demand for these kind of supplements which does not require Dr. prescription since those are considered as health supplements.
If not used carefully, those can cause serious problems indeed. If used with enough care, can be helpful too.
Curcumin + pepper extract is considered to have inflammation reducing properties, people with several conditions allegedly benefits from this.
Unlike India where medicines are cheap, these kind of supplements are a hit in western countries where medical care is expensive.
For eg., heard people using this / similar compounds as supplements against rheumatism or similar conditions where western Drs. just prescribe pain killers.
And there are thousands of such supplements in other countries derived from hundreds of herbs all over the world. I personally have witnessed one of the most famous companies collecting tons of herbs from South India for scientific studies, which are patented and sold for huge amount later. Lot of things does not work as we think and as said in wikipedia.
Bro, can you spill the beans and say everything directly ? You are quoting yourself and giving vague hints which I am unable to understand.
No one has the time to reverse engineer our quotes and figure out the meaning of our original posts so when you quote, quote the entire relevant stuff so that everyone can understand. Here, even the quoted guy (me) is confused about what is quoted, why and where is the 'assumption' you are talking about ?
Now you post one more confusing reply and I will send you a turmeric supplement.
Bro, can you spill the beans and say everything directly ? You are quoting yourself and giving vague hints which I am unable to understand.
No one has the time to reverse engineer our quotes and figure out the meaning of our original posts so when you quote, quote the entire relevant stuff so that everyone can understand. Here, even the quoted guy (me) is confused about what is quoted, why and where is the 'assumption' you are talking about ?
Now you post one more confusing reply and I will send you a turmeric supplement.
Had no idea. Thought I was being clear. Basically this - you're sharing adverse effects of turmeric supplements & saying "Turmeric has no health benefit other than its ability to give yellow color in the food" and I'm saying "Turmeric supplements having adverse effects doesn't necessarily mean that Turmeric has no health benefit".
In the links you posted above (copyright protected, not allowed to even copy paste, haha !), it is evident that such supplement market is huge in these countries.
So, people were underestimating these supplements, over-dozing without due care, some manufacturers not making quality products, etc. have turned products market into a 'hot potato'.
Food supplement section of famous French(?) mega corpn. Sanofi alone itself might be enlightening
There even nutritionists, etc. prescribed such supplements.
The Italian article is asking to wind down the 'claims', not stop selling altogether...
All the while they are saying these are not helpful, cannot be 'absorbed' in body, there are heavy metal toxins, etc., they were overdosing on this !
Everything over the limit for body is toxic... This is becoming funnier.
People taking statement " Indian kitchen is a medical cabinet" type statement in true sense.
Get half kilo badam, sit & eat in one go, now you got all the nutrients in one shot. Lol.
And remember not just one product in the kitchen is a medicine, it is the combination that makes it healthy. And over a long period of time. Instead of that people looking to west for capsule & round tablets, scientific evidence & processed food.
I quote Dr B. M. Hegde: Modern/Western medicine for a quick fix, like road injury,etc. But for others Indian.
Turmeric has no medicinal property and it can cause serious liver damage if ingested in capsules form containing black pepper or with any other substance which can increase its absorption.
In 1995, the United States awarded patent on turmeric to University of Mississippi medical center for wound healing property. The claimed subject matter was the use of "turmeric powder and its administration", both oral as well as topical, for wound healing. An exclusive right has been granted to sell and distribute. The Indian Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) had objected to the patent granted and provided documented evidences of the prior art to USPTO. Though it was a well known fact that the use of turmeric was known in every household since ages in India, it was a herculean task to find published information on the use of turmeric powder through oral as well as topical route for wound healing. Due to extensive researches, 32 references were located in different languages namely Sanskrit, Urdu and Hindi. Therefore, the USPTO revoked the patent, stating that the claims made in the patent were obvious and anticipated, and agreeing that the use of turmeric was an old art of healing wounds.
Traditional Knowledge (TK) is a living body of knowledge that is developed, sustained and passed on from generation to generation within a community, often forming part of its cultural or spiritual identity.
www.mondaq.com
India has forced the US Patent and Trademark Office (PTO) to revoke a contentious patent it granted two years ago to researchers in the United States on the use of powdered turmeric (Curcuma longa) for wound healing.
The PTO withdrew the patent on 13 August after a year-long legal battle with India's Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), which argued that turmeric, a native Indian plant, had been used for centuries by its people for wound healing, and so lacked the “novelty” criterion required for patenting.
Indian scientists claim this is the first time that a move in the United States to patent a traditional remedy from the developing world has been successfully overturned. Earlier efforts by an international coalition of environmentalists to get the US patents on products of the neem tree cancelled ended in failure (Nature 377, 95; 95; 1995).
[NEW DELHI]India has forced the US Patent and Trademark Office to revoke a contentious patent it granted two years ago to researchers in the United States on the use of powdered turmeric (Curcuma longa) for wound healing.
Possibly no subject in science has inspired more nonsense than quantum mechanics. Sure, it’s a complicated field of study, with a few truly mysterious...
@Mr.J
Thanks for brining this up, the issue is actually deep and known to some extend. There are vested interests and lobbies at play rather than purported pure scientific evidences alone, to say such interests does not exists at all will be misunderstanding.
Unfortunate reality is that as a country (can't mention culture, what if trigger somebody!) we are very weak at protecting our interests.
Our intellectuals are more into self criticism, less intelligent acutely supportive of our own corruptness, that those with enough wisdom keep silent and live their own life.
Found an unfortunately funny thing on net today (for FDA enthusiasts):
I backed my statement with the case studies of real patients, so liver damage due to turmeric is real. Read the entire post before calling something 'utterly false'
Acute liver injury following turmeric use in Tuscany: An analysis of the Italian Phytovigilance database and systematic review of case reports https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32656820/
Where is the demonstration ? The patent authority cannot verify the claims, so it is a false statement that the product worked as intended. The working of a medicine can only be verified with high quality medical evidence and not from patents. There are many fraudulent patents.
The so called 'turmeric product' was used for wound healing and not for oral consumption as a supplement which is the cause of liver injuries. Just to clarify, when I said that the turmeric has no medicinal property, I was not talking about its application on wounds. I was talking about oral consumption as a medicine and supplement. I was also talking about liver damage because of turmeric. That doesn't mean I am endorsing that turmeric can heal wounds if applied externally.
Below are some quotes from the patent. Observe the bold parts and skip the rest. Anyone can read the entire patent though. Mr J was kind enough to post a link here.
Administration of curcumin in mice significantly reduced the scavenging of peroxides and other activated oxygen species turmeric inhibits chemically-induced epidermal ornithine decarboxylase activity, epidermal DNA synthesis, and the promotion of skin tumors in mice
Fat metabolism is likewise influenced by curcumin. It can render bile non-lithogenic in mice
The anti-inflammatory properties of curcumin were shown to inhibit the 5-lipoxygenase activity in rat peritoneal neutrophils
Furthermore, curcumin inhibited the proliferation of rabbit vascular smooth muscle cells.
The present inventors postulated that turmeric may have significant antineoplastic, antioxidant, antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties when given orally or applied topically.
It is postulated that turmeric contributes to the treatment of chronic ulcers through the following mechanism:
the inventors chose to fashion full-thickness circular wounds on rats and allow them to heal by secondary intention.
In the animals treated with local and/or oral turmeric.
Experiment 1
Thirty-two Sprague-Dawley rats (275 grams) were kept under NIH guidelines and fed water and rat chow ad libitum
It has been recently shown that curcumin decreased p24 antigen production in acutely or chronically infected cells with HIV-1, a paradigm of anti-viral activity.
Oral administration of curcumin in human volunteers has been shown to significantly decrease the level of serum lipid peroxides (33%), increase HDL cholesterol (29%), and decrease total serum cholesterol (11.63%)
Observations after reading the patent
-I lost count how many times I read words like 'animal', 'rats', 'mice' 'postulates' etc. A study done on mice and animals has no significance as clinical evidence. It is the responsibility of the 'inventor' to validate his postulates with clinal trials.
-Not only this, but the patent claims that turmeric can help in HIV, cancer, managing cholesterol and a few other diseases.
-It also claimed that turmeric may have antineoplastic, antioxidant, antibacterial and anti-inflammatory properties.
In short, according to the patent, turmeric can help in cancer, HIV, cholesterol control, it is an antioxidant, antibacterial, anti inflammatory, antineoplastic and so on. Everything under the sun is possible by using turmeric. Just because a patent was granted that doesn't mean everything claimed is true. The inventor has to do clinical trial to validate his postulates.
Then the patent cited examples of 2 patients to prove the effectiveness of turmeric on leg ulcers. Yes, only two. Do note that case histories are the weakest form of medical evidence. These two cases were related to using turmeric directly on wounds.
Moving on,
The point of my post was to explain the liver damage caused by turmeric, not to indulge in endless discussions on the imaginary health benefits of turmeric.
What next ? Health benefits of eating Mercury because Sadhguru claims that he eats Mercury ? Just because mercury is poisonous that doesn't mean it does not have any health benefits right ?
Had no idea. Thought I was being clear. Basically this - you're sharing adverse effects of turmeric supplements & saying "Turmeric has no health benefit other than its ability to give yellow color in the food" and I'm saying "Turmeric supplements having adverse effects doesn't necessarily mean that Turmeric has no health benefit".
I posted a link of the study which concluded that turmeric has no health benefits in rheumatoid arthritis. It was a double blind randomized placebo-controlled trial, a high quality medical evidence. See my first post. Also, there is no evidence of turmeric being useful as a medicine or a supplement. The studies which are favoring turmeric are doing their research on cell culture, mice etc which is not a clinical evidence. That is why I claimed that turmeric is good for color and nothing else. Extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. The burden of evidence is on the person who is making the claim and not the other way around. When I claimed that turmeric is causing liver damage I backed it with case studies of real patients. If new evidence comes in future in favor of turmeric then the situation will change.
Lastly, Turmeric supplements can cause liver damage because turmeric is toxic to liver. One can get the same harm if one start consuming turmeric regularly with black pepper. Turmeric milk without black pepper is safe because of turmeric's poor bio-availability. Turmeric as a spices in the kitchen is also safe. This is what a hepatologist said whose job is to manage critical liver patients.
It is not just about turmeric but it is about pseudoscience. Turmeric takes a long time to destroy your liver but other herbs and supplements can do that in a few days. The tendency of using some random herb/spices as a supplement or a medicine needs to stop.
Hmm .. given the high consumption of turmeric as a supplement especially in Umrika and urope, one would of thought that the studies would consider a much bigger and better distributed sample. The words like rare or two or one, and that too patients with pre-existing liver ailments, do not really imply statistical significance when extending those outcomes to the entire population who consume this supplement. Moreover these do not include any healthy people.
Here is a "dated" one that does summarize few studies involving "healthy" folks and impacts -
Turmeric, a spice that has long been recognized for its medicinal properties, has received interest from both the medical/scientific world and from culinary enthusiasts, as it is the major source of the polyphenol curcumin. It aids in the management ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
This somewhat recent "draft" paper from UK FSA summarizes many studies in this area -
While they do conclude on the link to hepatotoxicity (referred as idiosyncratic drug reaction) they don't agree that piperine improves the bioavailability of curcumin.
And here is a fairly comprehensive coverage of research studies on its impacts -
The yellow polyphenolic pigment known as curcumin, originating from the rhizome of the turmeric plant Curcuma longa L., has been utilized for ages in ancient...
www.frontiersin.org
You can choose what you want to believe but my view is that if you are taking any "health" supplements, then please do so under medical supervision.
I posted a link of the study which concluded that turmeric has no health benefits in rheumatoid arthritis. It was a double blind randomized placebo-controlled trial, a high quality medical evidence. See my first post.
Point is - The very existence of such studies/researches means that this is very much a work in progress. No one in the Academia is realistically writing about pretty much known scientific facts, either opposing or otherwise. You can still read such papers if you want; I'll link a few I found just to post this. But, if it's not the line of work you're in, it's pretty much a pointless exercise. One shouldn't have to read all this, and it's often better & much simpler of an idea to (bear with me here again) -
I tried my fair share of reading through such papers back in the pandemic until I gave up, so couldn't be bothered to read through all these. But, from what I've skimmed through, it seems -
1. There's some evidence at least in a logical sense (that would be the ones from "case series and reports" I guess, in your triangle.
2. There has been some human trials. Much of trials performed 'in vitro', as they call it, seems to be older. So, I guess there's some statistical significance required in those to perform human trial, much of which seem to be newer.
3. Almost all of them end with, more studies required.
I think it's better to end the discussion regarding turmeric. We are not getting anywhere. Those who want to have turmeric, please go ahead and enjoy it, and those who don't want to have it, please refrain from doing so.
At least nobody here is supporting Homeopathy and Ayurveda fraud. I would be more concerned about using alcohol and heavy metals as a medicine.
Please also avoid listening to these pseudoscientists like Jaggi Vasudev (Sadhguru) for your dietary advice unless you want a one-way ticket to death.
And I would request folks to refrain from blindly taking social media at face value. The self-proclaimed experts almost always have their own motivations, monetary or otherwise.
When in doubt or if you need information, then please talk to a real qualified expert - your doc or your nutritionist.
@TEUser2K1
This is one of the most absurd studies I have ever read in my life. Nine servings? It doesn't take a study to conclude that if someone is binge-eating like that, they are likely experiencing depression. Correlation does not imply causation. There are many studies that suggest that sleeping more than usual can lead to disorders. It's not that people who sleep more will become ill; rather, they are sleeping more because they are ill. Similarly, people may be depressed, and that's why they engage in binge eating with whatever food they can find. They can be depressed for a multitude of reasons in their life, such as work, love life, failures, family issues, getting less likes/views on their social media posts and more. What exactly are these "ultra-processed" food items? It's a very vague definition.
> This is one of the most absurd studies I have ever read in my life. Nine servings? It doesn't take a study to conclude that if someone is binge-eating like that, they are likely experiencing depression.
Just like how they study turmeric, isn't it ? Lol. /s
I've seen normal people using processed foods as their staple food daily, many cultures have such lifestyles. Not everyone, but many, especially youngsters. That is how life is in different geographies.
Anyways, my point is take all these studies with your own discerning.
@TEUser2K1
My point is that they initially experience depression, which leads to excessive food consumption. Most ultra-processed foods are effortlessly consumed. Binge eating is a prevalent symptom of depression and many behavioral disorders. It's challenging to attribute depression to any specific food without full control in research studies. In today's complex lives with numerous moving parts, it's easy for anyone to experience depression. Embracing a simpler, minimalist lifestyle can help reduce stress for everyone.
Explaining it for the last time. The source of research papers
I posted two kind of links in my original post. 1) Clinical trial
Only one link of a phase 3 clinical trial because it was published in August 2023, it concluded that turmeric has no use in treating rheumatoid arthritis.
2) Case studies of patients.
A few studies of liver injuries because of turmeric. A single link discussed cases of 1-2 to 20 patients so had I posted only one, then someone would have said that 1-2 cases of liver injury cannot decide anything. That is why I posted 10-12 links so that people can understand the gravity of the situation. These were not studies which we can choose to believe or not. These were cases of patients who suffered liver injury. Both 1) and 2) were picked by a hepatologist.
Decades of research, a work in progress.
When a claim is made that turmeric is antioxidant, antibacterial, anti inflammatory, antineoplastic, can help in HIV, cancer, cholesterol, Alzheimer then it is the responsibility of the claimants to conduct clinical trials and substantiate their claims. These claims are decade old so where are the clinical trials ? These people cannot keep on claiming loads of BS even after decades. These guys will keep on publishing endless research papers for academic and professional advantage and we will keep on waiting for more studies.
However, these findings should be interpreted cautiously because of the significant heterogeneity between included studies (I2 > 50%). There is a need for further RCTs in future. Future research should focus on standardising the dosing and formulation of turmeric therapy. Further research, however, is necessary due to the still too few studies assessing pure curcumin Larger, well-designed studies are needed to validate our findings in strictly selected disorders in order to potentially consider curcumin as an add-on therapy.
And last but not the least, below is the meta analysis, which was cited by our favorite turmeric study " Curcumin: A Review of Its’ Effects on Human Health"
However, the total number of RCTs included in the analysis, the total sample size, and the methodological quality of the primary studies were not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions. Thus, more rigorous and larger studies are needed to confirm the therapeutic efficacy of turmeric for arthritis.
In short, studies say a) Turmeric is good in lab, It does a lot of things to mice, rats and cells inside a lab. b) Turmeric seems to be working on humans in xyz disease but data is not enough to conclude anything. So, it may be helpful in a disease but we don't know when to use it, in what amount and what are the side effects. Now go conduct more research.
But I can find 10 research papers which say otherwise?
Quality of study is important. Look for double blind randomized-controlled trial and meta analysis/systematic reviews . Avoid rats and mouse studies. Your favorite research paper is probably already covered in a meta analysis and as usual the conclusion will be "We need more research bro".
But Turmeric supplement users overdosed that's why their liver failed Pick a random turmeric supplement of your choice and it will have 500 mg of turmeric extract per serving which is enough to cause liver injury if consumed regularly.
@ ibose I think you raised some good points about Statistical significance .
It is important when we are talking about a issue in which we cannot precisely identify the cause. For example, suppose only 3-4 people suffered head injuries after falling from bikes in an area, can we say that the cases are too less and bikes are safe without helmet considering there are thousands of bikes in an area? The injury pattern and cause from just a few cases are enough to tell us that an unprotected head is dangerous on a two wheeler.
A liver injury has a pattern. There are experts who can differentiate between a liver injury caused by paracetamol, alcohol or herbs. The doctors identified that the cause of liver injury was turmeric. It was not a guess work. In many cases the patient fully recovered when turmeric use was stopped. This is the reason why a few cases were enough. Doctors published these cases whenever they come across these. There are hundreds of such cases and I listed about 10-12. They couldn't include healthy people in their studies because they were not treating healthy people.
There were no pre-existing liver ailments in the studies I posted. The first draft you posted above also talked about a few cases of liver injures and even there, it was specifically mentioned that there were no pre-existing liver issues.
Lastly, @everyone
The above guy is a hepatologist not a random influencer like fit tuber or beer biceps. There may be hundred of such cases in India not just because of turmeric but because of random herbs used as medicines and supplements. Unless docs start evaluating each and every liver failure thoroughly we cannot be sure and hence we should listen to what an expert is saying.
Turmeric is a spices, use it like that. Enough turmeric for today.
Curcuma longa is a perennial herb that belongs to the Zingiberaceae family. To date, literature includes more than 11.000 scientific articles describing all its beneficial properties. In the last 3 decades various surveys by the U.S. Food and Drug ...
For example, suppose only 3-4 people suffered head injuries after falling from bikes in an area, can we say that the cases are too less and bikes are safe without helmet considering there are thousands of bikes in an area? The injury pattern and cause from just a few cases are enough to tell us that an unprotected head is dangerous on a two wheeler.
So shall I also say train and air travel are unsafe as there is a chance of accident howsoever small the probability ?
Nuts and fish are not safe because it can cause allergy ?
Not wearing helmet is not the direct cause of injury, is it ?
Correlation in a small biased sample does not indicate cause for the entire population. This old text should be a mandatory read for everyone -
That is funny, and to a certain extent, criminal. That is like the last minute market surveys you do in our management course filling up responses on your own when no one is looking and then concluding why deodorants get sold more in the summer than winter.
There are thousands of clinical trials undertaken for medicines, supplements or nutraceuticals where a control group of healthy population is included just to identify the side effects. Lookup human clinical trials for curcumin and see what they say. No one stopped them from doing proper human trials but I believe Covid could be one of the reasons why there aren't more recent ones. So let them do a proper human trial of the supplement over a period of time to identify the evidence. Why are the regulatory agencies not mandating a human trial before any of those supplements get sold or stopping them from being sold till they complete one ?
My point remains that if you conclusively identify x out of y to have an issue with the supplement, y is significant. I don't even see a y in any of the quoted cases.
Using words like rare or may or not sure, oh well... please come back when they are sure.
Here is what one study says -
"Idiosyncratic drug hepatotoxicity (IDH) occurs in 1/500 to 1/50,000 individuals exposed to a particular drug (the prevalence of idiopathic hepatitis in the community is estimated to be 1/100,000) (Kaplowitz, 2005). IDH has been associated with a variety of pharmaceutical drugs as well as food supplements, notably kava kava. IDH is variable, person specific and occurs for many drugs, but also does not occur for many others. Idiosyncratic events are not caused by the drug itself but by reactions unique to the individual who is exposed to them (Apica and Lee, 2014). However, without the drug there would be no effect. IDH is generally too rare to be detected in clinical trials, though elevated ALT levels may be an indicator. As a general rule, an ALT level greater than three times the upper level of normal is considered to be a sensitive indicator of liver toxicity (the marker is not completely specific since muscle injury may elevate ALT levels). While this is nearly universally described for idiosyncratic liver toxicants, it is not always predictive of overt idiosyncratic toxicity."
Reading this only gives me cognitive dissonance; I don't know what others feel.
So more research and clinical trials are needed to conclusively prove that consumption of the supplement beyond a specific dose can cause liver problems in healthy folks and under what conditions. Till that happens let's stop all this alarmist crap. As I mentioned, talk to your physician, who knows and understands more about your medical history and physiology than you yourself, guy on Twitter or studies on the net. You are not your own doctor and less even for others.
> Pick a random turmeric supplement of your choice and it will have 500 mg of turmeric extract per serving which is enough to cause liver injury if consumed regularly.
The problem here is that you don't want to understand, not that you can't understand.
Nobody should be talking such supplements 'regularly'. General concensus with some of these supplements is that you take 5days aka 'cycles'.
Heck, eating heavy fatty food regularly will eff you up. Everything in excess is bad for body, even food. Eat prawns a lot regularly, your cholesterol levels will shoot up and you may face consequences, for some same with eggs. It is not because prawns are not food, it is because you are misusing it.
Just because paracetamol is a safe pain killer does not mean you take few of them everyday whenever you feel pain in leg after walking. Same with such health supplements.
For those who want to understand, they all understood what this all is about. Hope we will be able to move on to more meaningful discussions.
about what is quoted, why and where is the 'assumption' you are talking about ?
