TinTinSnowy
Guide
This is another post not related to diet, but I think it adds value here since the discussion has expanded beyond diet. We should not be using antibiotics for normal illnesses.
In one para : what's wrong with our modern diet.
- Thread starter PoBoy
- Start date
Yes, they did. The paper you posted talks about Roussel Uclaf Causality Assessment Method (RUCAM) for causality assessment and quoted a few of the same papers as valid evidence which I posted in my first post. Some papers also uses 5 point expert opinion to do causality assessment. A few of the links I have posted have explicitly mentioned that they used RUCAM for causality assessment and if someone had opened just a few links then he would have seen it right away. Reposting the same links.
-American journal of medicine used a 5 point opinion
-A systematic review I posted has used both RUCAM and WHO-UMC systems.
-Another paper I posted also used RUCAM
-Another link
-Another one
-More
Not every paper I posted in my first post has full text so let's not baselessly accuse them of not doing casualty assessment. For example, this one has not mentioned RUCAM but turned out they performed causality assessment. Here is the full text
Moreover, not every case is documented. Many people stop using herbs after they get terribly sick and then they improve, a few dies and the most of the times the cause of death is reported as jaundice. My aunt died because of liver failure and the cause was never identified. Docs just told us that it was jaundice. One more person I knew died and again the cause was jaundice, we knew it was due to alcohol though. theliverdoc has treated plenty of patients with liver injuries due to herbs. There are plenty of such examples and one can dig his profile to know more. One example,
The paper you posted talks about how turmeric is so good, how it is used for thousand of years and then concludes that the cases are limited so there are more clinical trials needed to settle, if it is toxic or not. And here we are again back to the same point, 'do more research bro'.
Which brings us to your next point
A bigger sample is needed when we are talking about something which is useful, such as food, a supplement or a medicine and it has some benefits. Turmeric is neither. If the entire population is eating 500 mg of turmeric which does nothing, then even one death and a few hospitalizations are enough for us to press the panic button to avoid unnecessary health burden. Even if 1 in 10000 people are affected, it is still an unnecessary health burden.
What supplement ? What is incomplete which is being supplemented by turmeric ? First, decide if it is a supplement or a medicine. The paper on causality assessment of drug and herbs induced liver injury makes an interesting observation,
"so called herbal dietary supplements, an incorrect term that should be avoided as they do not supplement any diet"
Curcumin is not a supplement, it does not supplement anything and no health benefits are proven even after decades of research. Moreover the burden of evidence and the responsibility of clinical trials lies on the person who is claiming a million benefits. Its been decades and still there is nothing.
More research is needed to ascertain the benefits of turmeric, and even more research is needed to establish a cause and effect relation between turmeric and liver toxicity because there is always more research needed. Till then, let me sell a few thousand crores of turmeric supplements.
There are 9000 publications and 500 patents on Curcumin (Turmeric) and still no useful clinical data. How much time do they need? A few more decades maybe ?
Below is from an interesting paper which analyzed the decades of useless research with turmeric.
Curcumin has recently been classified as both a PAINS (pan-assay interference compounds) and an IMPS (invalid metabolic panaceas) candidate. The likely false activity of curcumin in vitro and in vivo has resulted in >120 clinical trials of curcuminoids against several diseases. No double-blinded, placebo controlled clinical trial of curcumin has been successful. This manuscript reviews the essential medicinal chemistry of curcumin and provides evidence that curcumin is an unstable, reactive, nonbioavailable compound and, therefore, a highly improbable lead.
Here is a graph which shows the trend.
This is a good point. Herbal and ayurvedic labels or ingredients are the best ways to sell something. Brands make sure the bare minimum regulations are met. Who need rigorous clinical trials when people are ready to buy their product anyway?
Experts are sure about that the turmeric is useless as a medicine/supplement and they are also sure that the so called 'supplements' causes liver injury. A few biased sample out of an entire population needs not be sure.
Train and Air travel makes you reach your destination. What is the advantage of eating 500 mg of turmeric?
Nuts and fish are food not Turmeric. Turmeric is a spices. No one ever said that turmeric should not be consumed as a spices.
A doctor treated his patient, he applied RUCAM to establish that the cause of liver injury was a turmeric supplement. Now instead of praising his work, let's mock him because he didn't conduct a clinical trial on the entire population. Wow! But when some people do conduct such trials let's ignore them.
I didn't recommend a 500 mg turmeric supplement with piperine extract to anyone. Who is trying to be a doctor here ? Not me.
But the crap of calling random herbs 'a supplement' will not stop right? Considering the meta analysis I cited in post 78 and now that I have told you again that the cause was established with RUCAM. There are hundreds of supplements selling in India which are good for nothing and toxic to liver. These are not tested for banned substance, no clinical trials, nothing. People are also using turmeric milk with black pepper. This is not a alarmist crap, this is a valid concern.
I agree. Also, people who are hell bent on finding benefits in random herbs should introspect because maybe they are the one who knowingly or unknowingly implying that these herbs are medicines, cure 100 diseases and work universally.
The guy on twitter is a hepatologist and a scientist who manages critical liver patients. Please do not try to downplay people you don't know.
Another twitter guy Dr Padmanabha Shenoy, and his team did a double blinded randomized placebo controlled trial on turmeric and even he was expecting some positive outcomes but found nothing. Turmeric (Curcumin) is as good as placebo for treating rheumatoid Arthritis
I have explained enough. No spoon-feeding anymore. If anyone has any more queries related to cause and correlation, statistics, patents and research papers then direct your queries to theliverdoc on X erstwhile twitter.
Last edited:
@TinTinSnowy
> We should not be using antibiotics for normal illnesses.
There are problems when such ideas / rules / opinions are misunderstood.
Depends on Drs who decide what is a 'normal illness'. How such conclusions are made, perceptions created and side effects.
Had some discussions with people in medical field and they have generally cautious approach on this.
Some Drs. purposefully or otherwise tend to over-stretch, avoids antibiotics where it is needed and the condition of patients worsens to dangerous levels.
So a case which could've been cured with weak doses antibiotics escalates so much that powerful antibiotics in high dosage is required (personally witness this happening with a collegue and everyone of us got stressed out about the whole episode).
Some say hospitals benefits out of such a nefarious situation too.
Actually don't want to comment all these 'unscientific' opinions of 'no scientific proof', but these are random disconnected anecdotes which should not be mainstreamed, though the same exists.
> We should not be using antibiotics for normal illnesses.
There are problems when such ideas / rules / opinions are misunderstood.
Depends on Drs who decide what is a 'normal illness'. How such conclusions are made, perceptions created and side effects.
Had some discussions with people in medical field and they have generally cautious approach on this.
Some Drs. purposefully or otherwise tend to over-stretch, avoids antibiotics where it is needed and the condition of patients worsens to dangerous levels.
So a case which could've been cured with weak doses antibiotics escalates so much that powerful antibiotics in high dosage is required (personally witness this happening with a collegue and everyone of us got stressed out about the whole episode).
Some say hospitals benefits out of such a nefarious situation too.
Actually don't want to comment all these 'unscientific' opinions of 'no scientific proof', but these are random disconnected anecdotes which should not be mainstreamed, though the same exists.
The link I shared debunked the studies which did not do any causality research and also pointed out how those that still did were flawed. It included links to studies which you had earlier quoted. Now lets look at a couple of studies you posted again in some detail -
So 10 out of 2392. Did they test if the rest consumed the supplement ? Where is the control population ? 3 contained Piperine and that led them to conclude it causes better absorption ? See the bolded part under Discussion. You can draw your own conclusions.
So 7 out of 73 ? Same questions as above.
I am not even looking at the remaining as they are looking at 1 or 2 cases in isolation.
www.who.int
www.who.int
And what does this commentary say -
Nelson and colleagues claim a lack of evidence for curcumin’s therapeutic benefits “despite thousands of research papers and more than 120 clinical trials” (www.clinicaltrials.gov). However, a PubMed search under ‘curcumin double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial’ yields 49 entries, of which 17 recent trials show efficacy. In addition, there are 27 other clinical trials and at least 5 animal studies of curcumin that point to therapeutic benefits (see full reference list online).
The assumption that a drug candidate must have a single known target and compatibility with high-throughput screening to enter the clinic can preclude promising drug candidates (R. L. Elliott Am. Chem. Soc. Med. Chem. Lett. 3, 688–690; 2012). Current detection methods for target engagement cannot gauge the full pharmacological spectrum of an investigational drug, so should be used with other screening paradigms. Also, the binding behaviour of curcumin to multiple molecular targets is associated with modulation rather than outright inhibition. And high-throughput screening is prone to technical artefacts that can make it a deceptive arbiter for excluding potential drugs.
Your entire premise is based on those studies which conclude that Turmeric is placebo and few studies which show limited patients having adverse reactions to long term use of large doses of curcumin, for whom the definite cause is unknown. Folks have shared studies concluding the opposite. No regulator has taken any steps to control this. There are so many stuff that you consume everyday and you will definitely find studies and research which point you one way or the other. My point remains that you do need long terms clinical trials with proper sampling representative of the entire population to determine the effect of Turmeric and the correct dosage, it can be consumed. Till that happens, please consult your own doctor and not biased individuals.
Results
Ten cases of turmeric-associated liver injury were found, all enrolled since 2011, and 6 since 2017. Of the 10 cases, 8 were women, 9 were White, and median age was 56 years (range 35-71). Liver injury was hepatocellular in 9 patients and mixed in 1. Liver biopsies in 4 patients showed acute hepatitis or mixed cholestatic-hepatic injury with eosinophils. Five patients were hospitalized, and 1 patient died of acute liver failure. Chemical analysis confirmed the presence of turmeric in all 7 products tested; 3 also contained piperine (black pepper). HLA typing demonstrated that 7 patients carried HLA-B*35:01, 2 of whom were homozygous, yielding an allele frequency of 0.450 compared with population controls of 0.056-0.069.Conclusion
Liver injury due to turmeric appears to be increasing in the United States, perhaps reflecting usage patterns or increased combination with black pepper. Turmeric causes potentially severe liver injury that is typically hepatocellular, with a latency of 1 to 4 months and strong linkage to HLA-B*35:01.Results
A total of 2392 cases of suspected drug-induced liver injury ..Discussion
The small sample size of this case series limited the genetic analysis. However, it is notable that 7 of the 10 patients carried HLA-B*35:01, a class I HLA allele previously implicated in green tea (Camellia sinensis), Garcinia cambogia, and Polygonum multiflorum hepatotoxicity. Genetic studies performed by our group and others suggest that there is a common susceptibility link in persons carrying HLA-B*35:01, making them sensitive to multiple polyphenols. Therefore, carriage of this allele may be a risk factor for liver injury from several herbal components.So 10 out of 2392. Did they test if the rest consumed the supplement ? Where is the control population ? 3 contained Piperine and that led them to conclude it causes better absorption ? See the bolded part under Discussion. You can draw your own conclusions.
Thirty-seven acute hepatic events, out of a total of 73 spontaneous reports related to CL, occurred in Italy up to September 2019. We describe here the seven cases (six female) reported by healthcare professionals operating in Tuscany (Italy) between December 2018 and July 2019 (Table 1). Patients' age ranged between 45 and 68 years. The daily dose of CL varied between 250 and 1,812.5 mg for an exposure period between 2 weeks and 8 months. Positive dechallenge was observed for the majority of patients. Applying the RUCAM score (Table S1), three cases were judged as “probably”, three as “possibly” and only one case as “unlikely” related to CL, while applying the WHO-UMC tool, five cases were judged as “probable”, one case as “possible” and one case as “unassessable”.
So 7 out of 73 ? Same questions as above.
I am not even looking at the remaining as they are looking at 1 or 2 cases in isolation.
Read the first line again. It clearly says that patients had pre-existing liver ailments.
Lol .. I don't know which branch of statistical analysis is this. The onus is on you to prove that it is harmful since you are claiming that and not on me to prove it is useful. If you really want to utilize your time better then focus on salt which is already proven to be harmful -
Indicator Metadata Registry Details
You will need to ask those who consume it as a "supplement". I don't. The burden of research is also on those claiming it is harmful. Please re-read the definition of a clinical trial -
Clinical trials
Your frustration appears to be with that people are profiting from this ?!! How about focusing that energy on alcohol and tobacco instead ?
I was implying the research on establishing a definite link between Turmeric and healthy people developing liver issues due to its consumption. I am yet to see any evidence among all this smoke and mirrors.
It is really convenient how you do not even hyperlink the paper -
And what does this commentary say -
Nelson and colleagues claim a lack of evidence for curcumin’s therapeutic benefits “despite thousands of research papers and more than 120 clinical trials” (www.clinicaltrials.gov). However, a PubMed search under ‘curcumin double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trial’ yields 49 entries, of which 17 recent trials show efficacy. In addition, there are 27 other clinical trials and at least 5 animal studies of curcumin that point to therapeutic benefits (see full reference list online).
The assumption that a drug candidate must have a single known target and compatibility with high-throughput screening to enter the clinic can preclude promising drug candidates (R. L. Elliott Am. Chem. Soc. Med. Chem. Lett. 3, 688–690; 2012). Current detection methods for target engagement cannot gauge the full pharmacological spectrum of an investigational drug, so should be used with other screening paradigms. Also, the binding behaviour of curcumin to multiple molecular targets is associated with modulation rather than outright inhibition. And high-throughput screening is prone to technical artefacts that can make it a deceptive arbiter for excluding potential drugs.
Folks like you, who are claiming that it is harmful.
So if something is useless, you will draw a conclusion that it is harmful for everyone. In which multiverse, does this work ? At least here, you got to prove it.Experts are sure about that the turmeric is useless as a medicine/supplement and they are also sure that the so called 'supplements' causes liver injury. A few biased sample out of an entire population needs not be sure.
The allegory was to your use of a helmet and your conclusion that absence of a helmet is the cause of injury.
Again, you are concluding something definite on the basis of a biased sample. Then you link to a study of something completely different - concluding turmeric has not benefit in a scenario. I praise the statistical process behind that but how does that prove that its harmful ?
So ? Do you personally consult with him now or have consulted earlier ? Do all TE members consult with him ? Does he know your medical history ? You know who does - your own consulting physician. Is the twitter guy in a position to pass medical judgement on all those who do not consult with him ? Stop glorifying folks without any reason.
Only if you stop telling others that it is harmful to everyone.I didn't recommend a 500 mg turmeric supplement with piperine extract to anyone. Who is trying to be a doctor here ? Not me.
Your entire premise is based on those studies which conclude that Turmeric is placebo and few studies which show limited patients having adverse reactions to long term use of large doses of curcumin, for whom the definite cause is unknown. Folks have shared studies concluding the opposite. No regulator has taken any steps to control this. There are so many stuff that you consume everyday and you will definitely find studies and research which point you one way or the other. My point remains that you do need long terms clinical trials with proper sampling representative of the entire population to determine the effect of Turmeric and the correct dosage, it can be consumed. Till that happens, please consult your own doctor and not biased individuals.
Last edited:
Another sad but interesting news:
www.indiatimes.com
The boy had a condition called ornithine transcarbamylase (OTC), where body cannot process ammonia properly.
Apparently, their parents were warned about the condition by Drs. and asked for visit.
Unfortunately, they gave protein drinks to him to bulk him up, badly effected him and he passe away.
His health condition is extremely rare and should have taken required treatments. If such people take unsuitable supplements, it can backfire on them.
But normal people can use such supplements in prescribed dosages without issue.
Indian-Origin Teen Dies After Protein Shake ‘Irreversibly’ Damaged His Brain
A 16-year-old boy named Rohan Godhania, who was of Indian origin and living in London, passed away after consuming a protein shake.
www.indiatimes.com
The boy had a condition called ornithine transcarbamylase (OTC), where body cannot process ammonia properly.
Apparently, their parents were warned about the condition by Drs. and asked for visit.
Unfortunately, they gave protein drinks to him to bulk him up, badly effected him and he passe away.
His health condition is extremely rare and should have taken required treatments. If such people take unsuitable supplements, it can backfire on them.
But normal people can use such supplements in prescribed dosages without issue.
nRiTeCh
Northstar
In just one line..Digital gadgets have made us digital slaves which has killed our good habits, schedules, peace, diet and health!
We are the last gen to come so far while the newborns and kids will soon be suffering from dozens of ailments which earlier only 50+ aged person used to suffer from. Add to it numerous mysterious auto-immune diseases. Soon, milk is gonna be a poison to all the kids as right now many of them are lactose intolerant.
So, most of the earned money is only going to be wasted into medical only to survive till 70-80s on ventilators, pumps, more medicines and less food. Welcome to the future!
Gone are the actual good healthy lifestyle days!
Don't know what is end of the world but surely in few 100 yrs human might not exists as even asteroids and meteors know human is gonna die the worse death due to their own mistakes..
We are the last gen to come so far while the newborns and kids will soon be suffering from dozens of ailments which earlier only 50+ aged person used to suffer from. Add to it numerous mysterious auto-immune diseases. Soon, milk is gonna be a poison to all the kids as right now many of them are lactose intolerant.
So, most of the earned money is only going to be wasted into medical only to survive till 70-80s on ventilators, pumps, more medicines and less food. Welcome to the future!
Gone are the actual good healthy lifestyle days!
Don't know what is end of the world but surely in few 100 yrs human might not exists as even asteroids and meteors know human is gonna die the worse death due to their own mistakes..
Last edited:
You just stirred a hornet's nest. I am sure that this thread will be locked down soon.
awestorr
Guide
Haha, i wonder if someones gonna quote a 200 words essay on this.
@awestorr
checked with google, is Ayurveda pseudoscience
Google's response:
"Classification and efficacy. Ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific because its premises are not based on science. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of Ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized."
checked with google, is Ayurveda pseudoscience
Google's response:
"Classification and efficacy. Ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific because its premises are not based on science. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of Ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized."
awestorr
Guide
To each its own ,i guess.@awestorr
checked with google, is Ayurveda pseudoscience
Google's response:
"Classification and efficacy. Ayurvedic medicine is considered pseudoscientific because its premises are not based on science. Both the lack of scientific soundness in the theoretical foundations of Ayurveda and the quality of research have been criticized."
Mr.J
Herald
Unless the remedies given in ayurveda prove effectiveness in trials the same way new medicines are proven to work, yes it is fraud. Science demands proof for claims.
Since this is a discussion about diets...
Drinking diet sodas and aspartame-sweetened beverages daily during pregnancy linked to autism in male offspring
news.uthscsa.edu
Seems aspartame research is going on and on...
Drinking diet sodas and aspartame-sweetened beverages daily during pregnancy linked to autism in male offspring
Drinking diet sodas and aspartame-sweetened beverages daily during pregnancy linked to autism in male offspring - UT Health San Antonio
Contact: Steven Lee, (210) 450-3823, lees22@uthscsa.edu SAN ANTONIO, Sept. 20, 2023 – A new published study led by researchers at The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio (UT Health San Antonio) has found an association between autism diagnosis in boys and daily consumption...
news.uthscsa.edu
Seems aspartame research is going on and on...
nRiTeCh
Northstar
Whoever came up with this concept of diet soda should him/herself die of soda and the chu masses flaunting diet sodas and even terming it healthy are the ones seen in hospitals then flaunting green teas!Since this is a discussion about diets...
Drinking diet sodas and aspartame-sweetened beverages daily during pregnancy linked to autism in male offspring
Drinking diet sodas and aspartame-sweetened beverages daily during pregnancy linked to autism in male offspring - UT Health San Antonio
Contact: Steven Lee, (210) 450-3823, lees22@uthscsa.edu SAN ANTONIO, Sept. 20, 2023 – A new published study led by researchers at The University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio (UT Health San Antonio) has found an association between autism diagnosis in boys and daily consumption...
Seems aspartame research is going on and on...
Diet soda concept is as good as poison with no poison yet free to die!
Emperor
Herald
I personally think, USA & it's ALLIES (Western World) FAILED to get patent (of Turmeric & Various Indian Hurbs) and failed to grab lucrative business, thus, may be, started to hate Turmeric etc. Read Here
Please search if all articles (that blaming Turmeric etc.) are by chance published after 1997 (after patent loss)?
Please search if all articles (that blaming Turmeric etc.) are by chance published after 1997 (after patent loss)?
Why does one require even a paragraph to find what is wrong in our diets?
It is simply that we are eating too much, too often.
Reasons: we have easily accessible food, low food prices (especially of the erstwhile luxury items like sweet stuff and fried stuff and refined products like bakery stuff), less physical work for entire awake duration (to keep us engaged and not think about food all the time)
It is simply that we are eating too much, too often.
Reasons: we have easily accessible food, low food prices (especially of the erstwhile luxury items like sweet stuff and fried stuff and refined products like bakery stuff), less physical work for entire awake duration (to keep us engaged and not think about food all the time)
@ssslayer
> It is simply that we are eating too much, too often.
This is may be true for new economy model influenced office workers, business owners, etc. living sedentary life. Mostly not because of choice, but because of situations and psychological reasons.
We must not ignore the massive truth that a huge percentage of Indians suffers from malnutrition.
-----------------
edit:
Bengaluru Court Orders Suspension Of X Account Of 'The Liver Doctor' In Defamation Suit Filed By Himalaya Wellness Corporation
www.livelaw.in
> It is simply that we are eating too much, too often.
This is may be true for new economy model influenced office workers, business owners, etc. living sedentary life. Mostly not because of choice, but because of situations and psychological reasons.
We must not ignore the massive truth that a huge percentage of Indians suffers from malnutrition.
-----------------
edit:
Bengaluru Court Orders Suspension Of X Account Of 'The Liver Doctor' In Defamation Suit Filed By Himalaya Wellness Corporation
Bengaluru Court Orders Suspension Of X Account Of 'The Liver Doctor' In Defamation Suit Filed By Himalaya Wellness Corporation
A Bengaluru Civil Court has passed an ex-parte injunction order to X to suspend the account of Dr
Last edited:
The link never debunked any study. The link said that RUCAM should be used in every liver injury case to confirm the cause and it considered only those studies in its review, which used RUCAM. The link however debunked your claim that the cause of liver injury was never identified. You didn't read your own link.
Where ? In your own universe ? Your paper cited a few other papers, which used RUCAM. Where did your paper prove that the RUCAM based citations were flawed ? A quote from your paper
"A number of reports have been issued that described the cases of highly probable drug-induced autoimmune hepatitis (DIAIH) ascribed to ingestion of Curcuma longa dietary supplement (Philips et al., 2020) That is, in contrast with the use, since ancient times, of Curcuma longa, as hepatoprotective (Rahmani et al., 2016; Tung et al., 2017; Peng et al., 2018) and for the treatment of digestive tract problems (Gera et al., 2017)."
So, 'ancient use' is author's argument against an industry standard casualty method which he himself brag about. Then he cites 4 papers to substantiate his claim out of which one is a proof of concept trial, two are again mine studies and last is nano formulations. The author is trying to downplay a paper which is a comprehensive analysis on reports of multiple patients with causality verified using RUCAM, using a mouse study. Is this how you find flaws? By citing studies on mice ?
And below is the conclusion of your paper. Anyone can read the whole paper from your link.
The overall limited number of cases worldwide, and the few toxicity studies available together with the preliminary determinations of regulatory organs seems to exclude the possibility of an intrinsic toxicity of curcumin. At the same time no solid evidence exists that the combination of curcumin and piperine could be the cause of hepatotoxicity. This seems to exonerate the spice which for millennia has been considered a panacea for all illnesses, indicating that the supposed Curcuma longa-related hepatotoxicity would be a baseless accusation. Overall, these type of food supplements should get the same level of attention from regulatory organs that is, given to drugs. Ideally, all the toxicity cases should be evaluated using a comparable method, as the updated RUCAM, and made available to the scientific community. For the specific case of curcumin, the number of cases reported is still too limited for definitive answer and only a more extensive clinical trial in presence of bioavailability enhancers could definitively settle this dispute
Another critical flaw in author's argument is, he talks about how effective turmeric is in curing many diseases while he himself call it a 'food supplement'. Food and supplements are consumed by everyone on a almost daily basis while medicines are supposed to be consumed by people who are sick. If turmeric is considered a medicine, then it cannot be a food supplement, and vice versa.
Those were not for for you. I reposted those links because you made a false accusation that cause was never verified in any case. There are a few hundred cases of turmeric and a few thousand of herb induced liver injury in last few years.
This is absurd. Looks like you didn't read your link again. Below is a quote from your own link.Lol .. I don't know which branch of statistical analysis is this. The onus is on you to prove that it is harmful since you are claiming that and not on me to prove it is useful.
You will need to ask those who consume it as a "supplement". I don't. The burden of research is also on those claiming it is harmful. Please re-read the definition of a clinical trial -
Clinical trials
"Clinical trials are a type of research that studies new tests and treatments and evaluates their effects on human health outcomes.
There are 4 phases of biomedical clinical trials:
- Phase I studies usually test new drugs for the first time in a small group of people to evaluate a safe dosage range and identify side effects.
- Phase II studies test treatments that have been found to be safe in phase I but now need a larger group of human subjects to monitor for any adverse effects.
- Phase III studies are conducted on larger populations and in different regions and countries, and are often the step right before a new treatment is approved.
- Phase IV studies take place after country approval and there is a need for further testing in a wide population over a longer timeframe."
Then remove salt from your diet since it is harmful. Let us know how it goes. Turmeric as a spices is not harmful and I will keep on using it.
I am not interested in whataboutery. The profit is the only reason why this crap is getting sold in the market. People know about the harms of cigarettes and alcohol, but herbal products are considered safe by consumers. No one sells cigarettes labelled as herbal and safe supplements.
Because It is extremely difficult to precisely identify the cause in every case especially in herb induced liver injury because herbal supplements are generally a cocktail of hundreds of ingredients. That's why well documented cases remains low. Patients also assume that herbal stuff is safe and don't report what they consumed. Many doctors used to include HILI in DILI cases. These are the things which can only be understood in clinical practice that's why expert opinion is also important.
Ahhhh, the comment. The comment talks about 17 clinical trials which showed efficacy. A lot of these are on arthritis. 3 out of these 17 papers say curcumin is useful in Rheumatoid arthritis. These three studies are already debunked by a phase 3 randomized placebo controlled trial published in a August 2023 paper I posted before. How many studies out of these 14 conducted phase 4 large scale trials ?
You conveniently shifted the burden of proof to others while these studies in your own link never conducted phase 4 clinical trials. There is nothing in these trials which translates to clinical practice. When something is effective and real, the results can be reproduced again and again. We don't need to do a research paper battles for real medicines.
Turmeric is not at all harmful as a spices. But, It can be harmful as a supplement. Folks like you have to prove the efficacy of Turmeric as a medicine and also prove it is NOT harmful. That is what clinical trial means according to your own link.
Both are separate statements. There is no correlation between these, there are separate research pointing towards both. May be in your metaverse people defend untested medicines and shifts the burden of proof to others but here in real world, you have to prove if your medicine works. Here, read again from your own link.
Only if you stop saying that it is not harmful just because the cases are rare. Moreover, just because something is useless that doesn't mean it is harmless.
I said that it 'can' be harmful; I never said it is harmful to everyone. Our liver absorbs toxins all the time that doesn't mean we should keep testing it for toxin tolerance. Why consume 500 mg of turmeric when it is not a supplement? Herbs like turmeric are not supplements because they don't supplement anything in the diet.
If the regulators are putting a herb in a 'supplement' category to remove the requirements of clinical trials then these fake supplements will be subjected to strong criticism. Till regulators and pseudoscience apologists wake up. This is why people seem biased to you.
That is just a baseless assumption. When did he pass medical judgement on anyone? Have you ever seen his tweets, read his papers ? He painstakingly verifies the cause of each liver injury using the same RUCAM that your own paper was bragging about and manages patients with liver issues. He talks about his own experience with patients.
Is he doing online consultations? NO.
Did he tell anyone to avoid or start any specific treatment related to any disease? NO.
Did he tell everyone not to take random untested herbal supplements ? Absolutely YES.
Did he tested Liver 52 and Coronil and found Lead in it ? YES that's why his account was withheld in India.
He recently managed a liver transplant free of cost. This was a case of a herb induced liver injury because of some herbal medicine. The boy was a donor and the father was a recipient. People can decide if it is a glorification or recognition.
That stuff is either food or a supplement. Turmeric and other random herbs are none of these.
A herb is not a supplement, It comes under the category of 'herbal supplements' due to poor regulation. There is no confirmed dose, no clinical trials done to prove its efficacy and safety from side effects. These supplements are a cocktail of hundreds of different ingredients which are not tested at all. These are not food, neither vitamins and minerals which are essential for our body. Herbal medicines/supplements can cause serious liver injuries. This ain't alcohol which will affect mostly men and can take many years. Herb induced liver injury HILI can happen in a few days and can affect anyone who consumes these products such as women and children.
If turmeric is effective in any disease then it has to be considered as a medicine by regulatory authorities, it must prove its efficacy and an absence of harm in clinical trails and its sale as a supplement should be immediately stopped. Till then the crap of selling herbal supplements needs to be called out.
Last edited:
Read it again. Quoting from it - "the weaknesses of LiverTox database approach include a case selection merely based on published case number"
Again, what does multiple mean - 1 or 2 or 10 out of how many ? Are those healthy individuals or patients with ailments ?
Still better than taking a leap from Green tea acting as a poison to certain patients and linking that to Turmeric as one of your studies mentioned. What rubbish !
That shows that you did not read it. Again quoting from your own quote of the paper - For the specific case of curcumin, the number of cases reported is still too limited for definitive answer and only a more extensive clinical trial in presence of bioavailability enhancers could definitively settle this dispute.
For the umpteenth time, instead of quoting a random number out of thin air, show me how many healthy individuals have been definitively identified to be taken ill due to consuming Curcumin and then show me what % is that of the total who consumed.
Yesss, finally we are getting somewhere. So now answer the same question - how many healthy individuals have been definitively identified to be taken ill due to consuming Curcumin and then show me what % is that of the total who consumed ?
You are confused. I have already mentioned that till appropriate clinical trials are conducted, anyone who is looking to consume it, should really consult their doctor first. My point on clinical trials was that none of those, which have been conducted till date, have not found Curcumin to be toxic. So if you are now saying it is toxic, you need to be able to replicate it via clinical trials and not just by picking up selective patient reports.
So you jump from Curcumin to herbs now ... muddying the waters are we. Even then all that is just a lame excuse. The active ingredient has been identified for decades now. We have made medical advances in leaps and bounds. Are you telling me they don't still know how and in what conditions it is causing adverse effects ? What will expert opinion do if they themselves do not understand ?
With your same argument, its amazing that the adverse effects of Curcumin cannot be reproduced again and again. We don't need research paper battles for that as well then.
Did your trial prove Curcumin is toxic ?
Supplement or medicine ? You appear to be confused again.
I don't need to prove anything. I have already stated earlier medical trials are needed to confirm the toxicity aspect.
Prove it. Research and trials have been already quoted on the benefits of Turmeric for healthy individuals.
That is great and I respect him for that. But I respect all those doctors more who do the same out of the spotlight. I also stand vindicated as quoting all of these is irrelevant in this entire argument.
Even then, they are duty bound to implement controls even after they get sold in the market as supplements. Quoting from the link -
FDA’s role in regulating dietary supplements primarily begins after products enter the marketplace. If a product is found to be unsafe or not otherwise in compliance with the law, FDA can work with the company to bring the product into compliance or possibly remove it from the market.
I don't see them banning anything in spite of your claimed "hundreds of adverse cases". They have adverse reporting in place. Please come back when they do something.
Last edited:
Boney Kapoor On Sridevi's Tragic Death: "She Used To Have Blackouts Due To Low-Salt Diet"
www.ndtv.com
Boney Kapoor On Sridevi's Tragic Death: "She Used To Have Blackouts Due To Low-Salt Diet"
Sridevi died in her hotel room in Dubai due to accidental drowning, on February 24, 2018
www.ndtv.com