In one para : what's wrong with our modern diet.

[TEUser2K1]

@guest_999
> You mean when an electrical engineer tells you to not touch those 2 wires hanging from a board you would still try by touching those wires?

Can you try a bit harder guest_999, your example is not bringing out the best in you

 

[guest_999]

@guest_999
> You mean when an electrical engineer tells you to not touch those 2 wires hanging from a board you would still try by touching those wires?

Can you try a bit harder guest_999, your example is not bringing out the best in you

There are many things in the world in which you defer to professionals in that field whether you like it or not. If you don't like a particular professional then find another one but don't say that no professional advice is required in that field because you don't like it. If you look hard enough you can always find some professionals who might agree with your viewpoint.

 

[TEUser2K1]

Can people even remotely doubt professionals involved in decisions like:

https://www.business-standard.com/india-news/fssai-relaxed-pesticide-norms-in-april-allowing-10x-more-residue-in-spices-124050400269_1.html

is the only question here guest_999.
No big big doubts like whether to touch smarting live wires, etc. Keep such doubts within your ilk to solve and leave others alone here ?
People here have bit of commonsense about what they are discussing, have some standards I mean.

So called professionals also sold everything from thalidomide saying such things are safe, all kind of PPFAS, BPA, etc. was extremely safe very few years back. So, keep that kind of professionalism with you, no need to preach and act like captain wikipedia smarty pants.

 

[Abhi_Mahant]

1. IF you seem to believe that calorie in = calories out is junk then I would advise you to read more about thermodynamics and then about nutrition and how stuff is digested and then about how the digested components are used by body immediately, or stored by body for later use.

It also depends on the metabolic rate, people can remain slim even if they eat a lot of calories with a high metabolic rate.

 

[TinTinSnowy]

It also depends on the metabolic rate, people can remain slim even if they eat a lot of calories with a high metabolic rate.

Metabolic rate impact is minimal. Everything comes down to your caloric intake end of the day.

 

[guest_999]

People here have bit of commonsense about what they are discussing, have some standards I mean.

Exactly so next time come with some "professionals" supporting your viewpoint instead of saying stuff like "Common man is supposed to to blindly believe 'science' and those with big big degrees without an iota of doubt and questioning." Common man is called "common" for a reason same way "professional" is called "professional".

So called professionals also sold everything from thalidomide saying such things are safe, all kind of PPFAS, BPA, etc. was extremely safe very few years back.

And that's why they are professionals because they do continuous research & correct their findings accordingly. Even broken clock tells correct time twice in a day but that doesn't make a broken clock a replacement for a working clock so don't use such arguments to say professionals are not to be trusted.

 

[kiran6680]

IF you seem to believe that calorie in = calories out is junk

Junk is not a very useful word for this discussion - which is the reason why it is typically only used as a strawman argument. But, yes, calorie in = calorie out doesn't help much , for the following reasons :

1. It is tautological. It doesn't add anything to the discussion that is not already well known. Like x = x. Very true, and very useless statement, getting zero marks in all the infamous algebra questions asking to find x.

2. Calorie out is highly variable, unknown, difficult to measure.

3. Calorie in is also somewhat difficult to measure. Hope nobody here is taking the calories printed on food boxes as a gospel truth, rather than as a general guideline. One takes variable amount of energy from the same food - a lot depends on fat in feces, gut flora, and the micro-organisms excreted, among other things. To say nothing of how certain foods affect calorie out, making bomb calorimeters even less helpful.

4. Most importantly - and hence saved for the last - thermodynamics doesn't care about health, quality of life or even life/death of the person. In other words, no one sane ever has the goal of losing weight at any cost - death, disease, extreme discomfort, inability to work etc. When people say they want to lose weight, indirectly they are saying that they want to lose weight without losing :
A. life
B. basic comfort in life, maybe they can take some discomfort
C. ability to keep a job
D. health. They might even be hoping to improve their health.

But before they can put their goal in so many words, some smartass says calorie in = calorie out, killing the discussion. BTW, getting amputated or even cremated is an even more sure shot way to lose weight, consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[TEUser2K1]

So called professionals also sold everything from thalidomide saying such things are safe, all kind of PPFAS, BPA, etc. was extremely safe very few years back.

@guest_999
And that's why they are professionals because they do continuous research & correct their findings accordingly. Even broken clock tells correct time twice in a day but that doesn't make a broken clock a replacement for a working clock so don't use such arguments to say professionals are not to be trusted.

If you are not eating thalidomide now, that is only because somebody found these professionals were not always right.
Nobody is saying to blindly distrust professionals, but only to trust but verify.
I mean, most people here have some basic understanding and standards of what and why they are in discussion. They are not children, so have some class.

 

[guest_999]

If you are not eating thalidomide now, that is only because somebody found these professionals were not always right.

And that somebody was also a professional, surely you are not saying that you can win case in court/regulatory authority against professionals based only on your "beliefs".

I mean, most people here have some basic understanding and standards of what and why they are in discussion. They are not children, so have some class.

Class? This is a science related discussion not political one & as far as science is considered there are a significant number of adults who practically know nothing even believing stuff like flat earth theory & fake moon landings so better to not assume anything beforehand. I don't care about what anyone says here as none of them are professionals as long as they say it as their own opinion or back it with some professional source. No need to say "X is right because I believe so & all professionals are wrong because I believe so".

 

[TEUser2K1]

@guest_999
> surely you are not saying that you can win case in court/regulatory authority against professionals based only on your "beliefs".
No body is claiming belief's here, its you who are blindly 'believing' some designations or degrees.
Only discussion is about professionals should be vetted and verified far better than now.

Like how professionals in this case should be vetted and verified for better:

https://www.business-standard.com/india-news/fssai-relaxed-pesticide-norms-in-april-allowing-10x-more-residue-in-spices-124050400269_1.html

> Class? This is a science related discussion not political one
Yes, the way you convey your ideas lacked class. So no further discussions, because it's not worth it. Because the rest of your sentence are still showing your class which is not worth of any comments ahead.

 

[TinTinSnowy]

quality of life

I don't see how being on a small caloric deficit/surplus diet will impair the quality of life. If anything, the quality of life will improve once you reach the normal, estimated healthy weight as per TDEE. I felt bloated and weak when I was obese. In fact, obesity is the most dangerous disease on this planet as it leads to so many health issues.

I went on a 200-calorie deficit (10% less than my estimated TDEE) a few years back and got rid of the excess body fat. I've been at my maintenance weight for a few years now.

It was difficult at the start to measure my body fat %, calculate TDEE, count calories, and use measuring cups/bowls for my food. In fact, I have a nutritional table of major food chain items stored on my mobile to refer to in case I get food from outside. I enjoy eating two McVeggie burgers occasionally, but when I do, I make sure to regulate my intake for the rest of the day, as each burger contains 400 calories. That leaves me with just 1200 more calories to consume if I ate 2 of them.

I still count calories to this day, even though it's not totally accurate, to keep my health in check.

 

[kiran6680]

I don't see how being on a small caloric deficit/surplus diet will impair the quality of life.

It may not, and I didn't say it does. But there are so many solutions to the equation calorie in = calorie out, and the fact that these 2 things are equal is the least important part of finding the solution for oneself. Obviously they are equal. So when one says the least important thing, while not saying the more important things e.g. staying alive, quality of life etc., it is obviously not helpful.

If you say 200 calorie deficit does not affect quality of life much, that is saying something useful. But if you were to say calorie in = calorie out, you would have said nothing useful.

I still count calories to this day, even though it's not totally accurate, to keep my health in check.

Wow, this table is interesting, seems to be added later. Do you know what the "Not recommended" means ? Obviously it must include some protein. And they can't say eating protein is not recommended.

Yes, counting calories helps the numerically inclined people think more easily. But how do you deal with the recursive nature of it ? E.g.

Step 1 : body weight x, calculate 200 calorie deficit, after a while body weight y < x.
Step 2 : After a while, the same food is equilibrium or maybe 100 calorie deficit due to lower body weight. So food reduced further ?

Asymptotically this reduces your food to zero ? Not a big deal I know, time period to reduce the calories to less than 1000k might be over 100 years, but still curious how you handle it.

EDIT : I ask because calorie out depends on body weight. And body weight typically reduces if you are on calorie deficit.

 

[TinTinSnowy]

Do you know what the "Not recommended" means ?

I believe there is no Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein set by NIHS, which could be why it is labeled as 'Not recommended'.

but still curious how you handle it.

I didn't increase the deficit further; I kept it the same, but the progress slowed down. It took me a year to return to my normal maintenance weight. I used this calculator to determine my TDEE and had my body fat percentage scanned with a DEXA scan.

TDEE Calculator: Learn Your Total Daily Energy Expenditure

Use the TDEE calculator to learn your Total Daily Energy Expenditure, a measure of how many calories you burn per day. This calculator displays MUCH more!

tdeecalculator.net

I measured my weight weekly using a scale and used this calculator to get a rough idea of where my weight should be after x period at certain deficit. https://www.losertown.org/eats/cal.php

Now, my body weight has been hovering around 68 kg for a few years, which is also my maintenance weight. I don't measure things frequently nowadays as I think I'm subconsciously eating at maintenance / get the feeling of full.

Wow, this table is interesting

The nutritional values of popular food chains like Domino's, McDonald's, etc., are available online on their respective websites for reference. Most people I know either underestimate the calories they eat or overestimate them, then they blame their metabolism and move on. Having a basic idea of calories can be helpful to achieve the desired weight.

 

[guest_999]

It took me a year to return to my normal maintenance weight. I used this calculator to determine my TDEE and had my body fat percentage scanned with a DEXA scan.

Just stay within BMI index 18-25 & do a full body checkup every year & show it to a good MD doctor, if everything looks fine then rest all depends on your luck (genetics & environmental factors).

 

[TinTinSnowy]

Just stay within BMI index 18-25 & do a full body checkup every year & show it to a good MD doctor, if everything looks fine then rest all depends on your luck (genetics & environmental factors).

Thanks! My BMI is within the range, and I get an annual full-body check-up done for myself and my family. I'm happy with where I am and lucky not to have any known health issues. True rest is indeed a stroke of luck

 

[guest_999]

Like how professionals in this case should be vetted and verified for better:
https://www.business-standard.com/i...0x-more-residue-in-spices-124050400269_1.html

You/activists can file a PIL in High Court/Supreme Court & the court will ask for a certified report from "foreign professionals" in your support & then ask for a similar report from "FSSAI professional experts" & will then compare & decide.

Yes, the way you convey your ideas lacked class. So no further discussions, because it's not worth it. Because the rest of your sentence are still showing your class which is not worth of any comments ahead.

It is amusing that you seem so stuck on class despite seemingly having no "professional degrees" to speak of & which you completely look down on when it is those degree holders that are usually accused of using "class" as excuse to shy away from debate. I am out of this thread now anyway.

 

[kiran6680]

I didn't increase the deficit further; I kept it the same, but the progress slowed down

Actually you decreased the deficit slowly - because calories out decreased as your weight decreased.

Now, my body weight has been hovering around 68 kg for a few years

Weight not changing much is further proof that deficit decreased and for (a few - 1 ) years there is zero deficit.

But I get your point - you had a 200 kcal deficit once, that didn't degrade your quality of life, you kept the "calories in" almost constant since then, and lived happily ever after! I learned something.

 

[TEUser2K1]

@guest_999
> It is amusing that you seem so stuck on class despite seemingly having no "professional degrees" to speak of & which you completely look down on when it is those degree holders that are usually accused of using "class" as excuse to shy away from debate.

Professionals or Degree holders lacking class or standards is the why requests for:

> You/activists can file a PIL in High Court/Supreme Court & the court will ask for a certified report from "foreign professionals" in your support & then ask for a similar report from "FSSAI professional experts" & will then compare & decide.

There probably are better professionals in India itself, for such a silly thing about watering down standards no need to go to phoreign.
Also why courts too needs to be bothered for this is why the lack of class. Getting educated with degrees will not automatically achieve that.

> I am out of this thread now anyway.
Bye.

 

[kiran6680]

Why are cancer cases soaring in India?

The number of people suffering from cancer will rise exponentially in the next two decades, health experts have warned.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[ssslayer]

Junk is not a very useful word for this discussion - which is the reason why it is typically only used as a strawman argument. But, yes, calorie in = calorie out doesn't help much , for the following reasons :

1. It is tautological. It doesn't add anything to the discussion that is not already well known. Like x = x. Very true, and very useless statement, getting zero marks in all the infamous algebra questions asking to find x.

2. Calorie out is highly variable, unknown, difficult to measure.

3. Calorie in is also somewhat difficult to measure. Hope nobody here is taking the calories printed on food boxes as a gospel truth, rather than as a general guideline. One takes variable amount of energy from the same food - a lot depends on fat in feces, gut flora, and the micro-organisms excreted, among other things. To say nothing of how certain foods affect calorie out, making bomb calorimeters even less helpful.

1) It is the only quantifiable and measurable means of knowing why one is gaining fat, and therefore the easiest way to cut it. The reason why my points needs repetition is because folks like Gary Taubes want people to believe that they can stuff themselves all the time (overeat), and if they shift from X diet to Y diet they can continue overeating and magically cut fat.
"The real mettle of LCHF is proven only when you deliberately consume more calories than your previous diet and still end up losing body fat / weight."

2) LOL, why do you need to measure it? If you are putting on fat on your waist: it means you are eating & drinking more calories than your body is expending. Ergo, you just need to consume lesser calories (e.g. 200 kcal deficit as mentioned by @TinTinSnowy, it could be any other number 500 kcal, 400, 1000 ...).
Calories in = Calories out doesn't mean you need to weigh and measure everything, it means there is a guiding principle that helps you understand the situation and take appropriate actions. e.g. you may know Kinetic energy = ½ mv 2. Therefore, you should know that driving fast is going to be quadratically more dangerous than driving slow (in case of collision accident).

3) As I clarified, [calories in - calories out - excretions = fat gain] is a principle of thermodynamics. We are not using it to stop and measure each and every aspect of our lives. Nutrition labels, you may belittle it, but is extremely helpful if you observe the calories in a piece of pastry/cake (500 kcal for a small wedge) vs calories in a typical roti (100 kcal) to take decisions and hold yourself accountable for the amount of fat you carry.

4. Most importantly - and hence saved for the last - thermodynamics doesn't care about health, quality of life or even life/death of the person. In other words, no one sane ever has the goal of losing weight at any cost - death, disease, extreme discomfort, inability to work etc. When people say they want to lose weight, indirectly they are saying that they want to lose weight without losing :
A. life
B. basic comfort in life, maybe they can take some discomfort
C. ability to keep a job
D. health. They might even be hoping to improve their health.

But before they can put their goal in so many words, some smartass says calorie in = calorie out, killing the discussion. BTW, getting amputated or even cremated is an even more sure shot way to lose weight, consistent with the laws of thermodynamics.

The above points are absolutely tangential, and I can't fathom what it is to do with the argument about LCHF promoted by Taubes vs simply knowing and cutting your calories (food & drinks)

It also depends on the metabolic rate, people can remain slim even if they eat a lot of calories with a high metabolic rate.

Metabolism (how your internal organs consume/expend energy) + work output (how your skeletal muscles consume/expend energy) IS the calories out part of the equation.
No one can ignore that; it is indeed quite an important part.

I have no intention of discussing absolutely anything with you, given your tone.

You are right.

Enjoy life.

All I said subtly was that Gary Taubes is a fool, and you are feeling offended? This is the exact hero worship that authors like Gary want, and I abhor (as hinted in my last line).