Indian BLACK MONEY: 1.45 Trillion USD (1450 Billion USD / 65,25,000 Crores INR)

[Satan]

@6pack

Those are all valid points and concerns although I'd still like to offer a counterpoint

1) Favoritism, Ego's and making nice to the boss are ubiquitous. There's no dodging that but irrespective of all that how often do we hear about multi-billion dollar scams affecting large corporate bodies? The reason we don't hear too much about it is because these companies, despite what goes on among the employees and management, know how to safegaurd what is theirs, which is what our country desperately needs. Corruption is here to stay just as man will always sin. We can never get rid of it completely. No plan is ever going to be a 100% fool proof but the need of the hour is to atleast minimise it to tolerable levels.

2) I wasn't really talking about handing over the country to large multinational corporations. That would probably result in a larger catastrophe than the one we are currently facing. What I was suggesting though is a better crime detection and prosecuting system. Despite having information, we are currently unable to do anything about it because the organsations responsible for tackling the guilty are themselves guilty. All we are looking for now is some justice. Leadership is a whole other ball game.

 

[sid_donnydarko]

I'd like to share a conversation i had with my father sometime ago. Before this conversation i was no different from any other disgruntled indian citizen and it was this conversation that helped me look at the big picture; the picture that has been alluding everyone like myself. During dinner my father started a topic on India's current state of affairs and sometime during this conversation he told me "Son, you will benefit more than we(dad's generation) ever did". And then it hit me. I had a truly fantastic moment of epiphany that left me frozen with food in my mouth.

First things first, look at the real big picture. Take into consideration that India achieved independence only 60 odd years ago. Ever since, we(india) have been under an enormous amount of pressure to catch up with the rest of the world. Don't forget that the majority of the indian economy was still dependent on it agraian roots after 1948. So we can all safely pat ourselves on the back for what we've achieved since then. Now most of you'd probably feel that we could've done a better job than what has been achieved so far. And for those of you who believe so, i'd like to tell you to wake up and realize it was NEVER easy to begin with. Yes we did have the advantage of gaining independence during the start of the second half of the 20th century; a time that saw more technological advances than in all of preceding history; a time that ushered in a new era that made the world's knowledge easily accessible to everyone through the internet, telecommunication, mass media, etc.

But with such lucrative advantages why is it that we indians still feel that we've not fully capitalized on such a golden oppurtunity? The answer is the human factor. While technology progresses at a certain speed, do not expect us humans to also adopt and understand technology at the same rate. We have our limitations and also don't forget that us indians had no choice but to evolve from a brit-repressed semi-agraian cultural and economic background. I wish it were as simple as "flipping a switch" but it isn't because we are "only human". And also add to the fact that we are a secular nation, which in truth makes it a whole lot tougher because a typical, average human being(let alone indian) will tend to be "religiously biased" and not "religiously tolerant".

Our current government largely, if not entirely, consists of politicians born during the 1940's and the 1960's. I won't go as far as saying that these politicians lack proper education let alone common sense(even though i'd like to ), but i'm pretty sure all of you would unanimously agree that most of them lack "world exposure". Hence you can't really blame them for trying to do their best to run a government in today's world. Is it really that surprising that these politicians had a choice when it came to cutting corners to run a government?

But then again couldn't these politicians try doing their best to save themselves some shame by learning from their mistakes? Or is it that we're(& media) being too harsh on them because we really do not know what it takes to run a nation? I don't have an answer. But i can reassure all of you that these politicians will eventually have to step down and this is when our generation literally steps in. What the existing political generation lacked in terms of broader perspectiveness/exposure/effective management is what the next political generation can introduce when they step in and take control of our nation. And i'm typing this with complete reassurance because it is inevitable that the current political generation will at one point have to "die out" and it is also inveitable that the next political generation that takes control will have to have some "proper" formal educational background that majority of the previous lacked. In short, the onus is on our generation to ensure that india is always on the right path by taking an active interest in politics and also learn from the mistakes of the ones we've succeeded.

What i find absurd even today is that there are some of us, if not most, who are still under the impression that we had it easy when we broke free of the British raj. The ones who believe so are the ones who constantly crib and i myself belonged to the same group until i realized that the bitter truth was that we indians undertook the gargantuan responsibilty of managaing our own nation the day we achieved independence. And responsibilty is not an easy task. It was destined to be a rough ride for all of us from the start. Corruption and mistakes was inevitable! Overnight success was never on the cards!

When i finally snapped out of that moment i laughed and told dad "one day i'll be telling the same to my children". I can't tell you when India will once again enter a golden period. I can't tell you if it is in the next 75 years or if it is right around the corner. But what i can tell you is that we will eventually be recognised as a developed nation.

 

[m-jeri]

^^

See. i had the same conversation with a frnd of mine. The "Our generation steps in" part.

Have you looked around whats happening to that generation?. A lot of em are glued to their phones and pc's, trying to imitate

western civilization in every aspect. They dont care to vote or even discuss civic issues sometimes. They live in a different space of time.

They want social networking, gadgets, hanging out, feeling up each other, get into a nice job. The end.Talking abt us actually.

There is also a section, actually a lot, that are carrying over the same rotten ideas that we are trying to weed out.Even in media when pics of riots/bandhs etc comes up most are from our generation itself. They are already imitating their political counterparts. All wants power, their community/religion to be foremost. Nothings changed. The previous gen honchos are training/using the current gen people to do their dirty work. Its already happening.

And actually the current india, that we all got to glorify only started after 1990's. After the end of License raj. After we almost

got bankrupt and we as a nation got to take a loan to buy essential commodities. True we have come long way. we have created

more opportunities, we have more rich people, we have more nicer things. But still all the bad things are also there.

That said I do agree we will have more benefits than our parents. no denying that.

I dont see a change coming. Coz we indians dont care honestly. All i will ever do is sit in a A/c room, in a comfy chair and post my thghts.

I am ready to accept that. Why? coz that all i can.

Like i said, I got my own shit to take care of.

 

[ReVo_007]

All this happens on and on what is the outcome nothing ... A man goes up and researches and luckily he stays alive while 99% wont be alive to tell you the tale of their findings . And as far as I have witnessed that world is very selfish no one will even do anything if they see a person dieing on the middle of the road .So who wants to risk his life and his family to expose these politicians who can get anyone killed once you get into their sight . And about next generation like its been said earlier that this generation is also being lured into the same trap . One such example is just yards away from my home Jadavpur University , one of the most reputed colleges in INDIA , hosts all kind of political issues and regional atrocities [from what i see and hear from students and teachers of university it self ]. Here in the country the opposition only knows how to put up a blockade to everything the party in power does be it good or bad . One such example is while there had been a law passed to change the public transport to much eco friendly resources and unions with the support of opposition govt stood up against it . The prices of general commodities like onion rose to 60rs/kg and we are now relieved paying 20rs/kg for it .That is the mentality . And all the govt cares of is the vote bank . Till now I havent been cleared of the fact how can a boy of a well established doctor , engineer or be it any other profession a OBC . While the actual OBC dont get a chance to stand up as these well established guys come up with the same tag :/ and best of all they are ashamed of the tag when they are asked to put it on the designation . All this adds upto the vote banks of these people . Running the country is the BIG thing but this kind of DECEIT cant go unnoticed and unaccounted for whatever be the reason . Its the HARD EARN money that we pay for these guys to keep in their SWISS BANKS . This is a chain reaction and the common man is at the end of it as the people having their accounts at such banks are already rich while a common man has to earn a days living and while others even are unsure of a days meal . And as I read in a previous post that the human factor . I just want one reply does the human doing all the SCAM not understand that its the money of the people and is he so dumb that he doesn't understand that its a huge amount of money ? technologically and academically INDIA might get affected due to the human factor as all are not educated enough but being a over smart guy and running away with money has got nothing to do with human error and religious . If that the case I will rob the bank one day and later explain myself as "Am religious and not educated enough so I robbed it ".Nothing holding against a particular comment or so , just poured in what I though of the different comment I went till now.

 

[chiron]

the amount 1.76LC amount is the very conservative estimated loss to the country because of not auctioning the 2G spectrum and just selling it for 3650C (calculated using various parameters by the CAG - available in its report) for a comparison the 3G auction which has a less market base fetched 1.8LC. the actual bribe money is conservatively estimated to be around 70000 crores after taking into account the stake sale of the suspected companies and other benefits. raja's share is estimated to be around 6000 crores. all my info is from news articles in TOI and Indian express.
_

Who gave the bribes?

 

[blr_p]

Indian BLACK MONEY: 1.45 Trillion USD (1450 Billion USD / 65,25,000 Crores INR)

While most of us already know about this,

Really, just how do we know this then ?

No black money data exists: Swiss banks-Press Trust of India, Sunday September 13, 2009, New Delhi

Repeating something countless times does not make it a fact.

what baffles me the most is how our current government is able to pull the wool over our eyes on an issue of this magnitude and scale?

Let me guess, the banks in questoin do not have any branches in India ?

No business to lose in India over suspension off their operating licenses unlike with the US & Germany. Even if it happens the loss of business isn't going to be life threatening like it was with the other two countries.

So tell me how is the govt to coerce these banks into cooperating ? not possible.

You won't get a govt spokesperson to admit that, neither will the media do it, you got to figure it out yourself. So govt comes up with some cock & bull reason in response to a cock & bull query.

Once you figure this out, get pissed off with how the media fed you some nice harmless opposition propaganda to get you all hot & bothered

How can you be sure ? Because if the incriminating data was availiable the govt would be pursuing it forthwright to get as much taxes as were evaded. Govts have a duty to act when taxes are missing, how else will they find the money to keep ppl voting them back into office. Where else will the sops, & cheap subsidies come from.

There'd be no media tamasha, just one small entry in the middle pages.

How is it possible that a country of 1.2 billion people has no say in bringing to justice the people behind the world's largest accumulation of illegal monetary reserves? Is this really a democracy anymore?

First show there is something wrong. agree ? Nothing has been done because they can't make the case. Once the case is made then approach the swiss, because they ain't going to reveal anything otherwise.

Let me put those numbers in perspective for you

India's GDP (as of 2009): USD 1.31 - 2.55 Trillion
India's National Debt: 78% of GDP (One of the highest in the world.

No source for this data is shown on the VE site, the figures are out of date and not accurate.

Your comment on one of the highest isn't true either.

Through the recession, USA had a national debt of only 60% of it's GDP)
Total Gold Bullion in The Federal Reserve Bank of New York (World's Largest Gold Bullion Repository): USD 270 Billion
Total Gold Bullion in United States Bullion Depository (Fort Knox): USD 173 Billion
Total wealth of all the American Billionaires (403): USD 1.51 Trillion

Bolded bit is wrong, its very close to 100% today.

List of most prominent non-Forbes Billionaires
Guess whose name features most prominently amongst Drug lords, Dictators, Arm Merchants and Crime Syndicate Bosses?

Why, it's our own future Prime Minister, the son of our nation as he is touted, Rahul Gandhi.

non-forbes you say ? why is that, forbes could not find ACCURATE data to include them in their own list.

This non-forbes list does not have any credibilty.

While the 1.45 Trillion in question is only from various Swiss Banks and Banks in Liechtenstein, there are almost 70 other tax havens around the world that people like you and me haven't even heard of. Our imagination couldn't possibly get around everything that is out there.

Isn't there anything we can do?

Forget the 1.45 trillion figure as there isn't much basis in it.

I'd like for this to be a discussion on what we as Indian Citizens can do to atleast put a dent in the criminal activities of the people hired to serve and protect us.

I know there are several members here at TE that are lawyers by day. How can we use RTI or any other provision in the constitution to get the information we need to fight corruption? Is lack of motivation and lack of funds the only reason we cannot expose these crooks and bring them to justice?

Forget ever getting any money stashed abroad from the past. You cannot pass retroactive laws, the oppositoin parties & the media are lying when they tell you this can be done.

Best you can do is make laws to prevent more of it ending up there in the future. Date effective whenever such a bill passes in parliament.

Got it ?

listen to Subramanian Swamy's speeches in youtube where he gives all details about the nehru family. total sadness so many are raping and pimping our motherland and we are helpless.

Subramnaim swamy is full of Sh!t !

All S.Swami cares for is getting into politics, he ain't objective and is completely biased.

Do not trust what one politican says about another politican.

I'm sure many of you are aware of this. Recently a Bangalorean decided to use his rights as a citizen and invoked the RTI in acquiring detailed documentation regarding the mis-doings of the CM of Karnataka. It obviously took a lot of work and a lot of time (not to mention other resources like money), but he came through single handedly. An entire case has been built based on the findings of this man ato expose the corrupt CM.

Link ?

Your post#12 has merit in its intentions, will comment on it later

 

[DigitalDude]

Who gave the bribes?

obviously the companies who got the spectrum allocated like swan telecom (sold stake to etisalat) reliance hand is behind this, unitech (sold stake to telenor), tata tele (sold stake to docomo) etc

_

 

[trigger]

We need much more initiatives like http://ipaidabribe.com. In an era we are in, such small revolts will definitely make a dent in this corrupt system over a period. We need an equal participation from a commoner to report any malpractice as soon as you come across one.

 

[DigitalDude]

Really, just how do we know this then ?

No black money data exists: Swiss banks-Press Trust of India, Sunday September 13, 2009, New Delhi

Repeating something countless times does not make it a fact.

the exact quantum of black money is not known. but there are credible estimates total quantum of money available and how much could be black money. just for a crude example, you can go through the global financial integrity report Global Financial Integrity - Reports - The Drivers and Dynamics of Illicit Financial Flows from India: 1948-2008 - Overview

Can share Indians’ Swiss bank account details: Envoy

I also hope you are aware of the Hassan Ali case. Hasan Ali Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and I don't think Supreme court and Ram Jethmalani are fools to entertain such unsubstantiated claims Indian money stashed abroad a national plunder: Apex court (Lead)

Let me guess, the banks in question do not have any branches in India ?

No business to lose in India over suspension off their operating licenses unlike with the US & Germany. Even if it happens the loss of business isn't going to be life threatening like it was with the other two countries.

So tell me how is the govt to coerce these banks into cooperating ? not possible.

on the contrary many swiss and italian banks have been invited to open branches in India in 2007 itself.

and few sources have made it clear that they are ready to cooperate. and we are not even talking about tax havens like mauritius, isle of mans, singapore's (not much regulation regarding certain kind of companies).

Swiss banks will help India nab tax cheats: Nason
YouTube - Swiss banks will help India nab tax cheats: Nason

Swiss banks to reveal names once India okays treaty, says BJP - Rediff.com Business

Swiss banks ready to help India trace black money - Business News - IBNLive

You won't get a govt spokesperson to admit that, neither will the media do it, you got to figure it out yourself. So govt comes up with some cock & bull reason in response to a cock & bull query.

Once you figure this out, get pissed off with how the media fed you some nice harmless opposition propaganda to get you all hot & bothered

How can you be sure ? Because if the incriminating data was availiable the govt would be pursuing it forthwright to get as much taxes as were evaded. Govts have a duty to act when taxes are missing, how else will they find the money to keep ppl voting them back into office. Where else will the sops, & cheap subsidies come from.

There'd be no media tamasha, just one small entry in the middle pages.

yes how will their mouth be clean in the public statements when their hands are not.
the reason is cock and bull but the query is not. If US can work and get details about 4250 such accounts from them why not India ?

and the government does have information GovernanceNow.com | Swiss banks don't want to hide, so we don't want to seek!

but government is not acting as many politicians are also involved Rahul Gandhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

btw sops cheap subsidies come from sources like 3g auctions, income tax money etc which can be used for development instead of additional debt burden. and political parties are well financed by corporates which they generously (mis)use to get to power.

so this is not just media tamasha.

First show there is something wrong. agree ? Nothing has been done because they can't make the case. Once the case is made then approach the swiss, because they ain't going to reveal anything otherwise.

majority of the effort and shouting is to push the government to investigate, prepare the case and force the swiss banks and other tax havens... they can't ignore India's voice. what do you think ? are people dumb to remain silent even after the case on the likes of Hassan ali, 2g, cwg have come up ?

Swiss banks' love for Indian clients no secret, woo back depositors who withdrew funds on fear of action - Economic Times

No source for this data is shown on the VE site, the figures are out of date and not accurate.

Your comment on one of the highest isn't true either.

see the total government debt in the below articles.
India’s debt is 129pc of GDP, China’s 158pc of GDP
High inflation makes centre's debt look reasonably good - Economic Times

btw 2011-12 projected central govt debt is alone 44.2% (52.5% suggests finance commission) http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2011-12/bh/bh1.pdf

Bolded bit is wrong, its very close to 100% today.

yes it's reported low because they don't show the fannie mac, freddie mac, social security and healthcare liabilities in their balance sheet.

non-forbes you say ? why is that, forbes could not find ACCURATE data to include them in their own list.

This non-forbes list does not have any credibilty.

yes, all stash their illegal money with proper documentary evidence. :rofl:

Forget the 1.45 trillion figure as there isn't much basis in it.

there is.

Forget ever getting any money stashed abroad from the past. You cannot pass retroactive laws, the oppositoin parties & the media are lying when they tell you this can be done.

Best you can do is make laws to prevent more of it ending up there in the future. Date effective whenever such a bill passes in parliament.

Got it ?

it has been done by even countries like nepal, italy, netherlands, US, UK, srilanka etc. no more exclusive laws need to be passed in this issue. the govt is not even acting on the present laws ('prevention of double taxation' agreements with many countries) due to vested interests. that is the atrocity.

and not even the law to prevent it in the future is even considered by the government (toothless lokpal bill). instead even the 'participatory notes' menace is still there.

and I don't believe advani's 'can be done easily' claims much. but it can be done. there are also not much publicised criteria like 'politically exposed person' clause when opening a swiss bank account. so it is easy to get politicians account than ordinary persons accounts.

so stop preaching indifference and hopelessness by giving lame reasons.

Subramnaim swamy is full of Sh!t !

All S.Swami cares for is getting into politics, he ain't objective and is completely biased.

Do not trust what one politican says about another politican.

and other politicians care very well for public welfare :bleh:

can you point out a single issue where he is not objective without documentary proof. 2G petition in SC ? soniaji's credentials ? kgb connection petition in SC ? or the article about Rajiv gandhi's swiss bank account details that got published in the swiss magazine ?

_

 

[6pack]

Recently, Switzerland's Vice President Doris Leuthard said during a visit to the country that the new Double Taxation Avoidance Treaty, once finalised, would enable India to seek details about black money deposited by Indians there.

Read this in @blr_p's link. So the govt is working towards getting some money back here then!

 

[Satan]

@blr_p

Excellent points. While I do appreciate your POV and the fact that you have taken time out to get involved, the air of condescension you bring with you, is not. So how about we go on from here without it?

As far the actual figures are concerned, you're right. I looked around a bit and there certainly isn't any information in an official capacity. At most we have a few task forces from the opposition working on these numbers and some insider information from a few employees of the said banks. At the end of the day it is money that has been stashed away illegally and is protected by the banking rules of these tax havens. We can't really expect anyone to give us figures in an official capacity. That is out of the question but that still does not mean that we completely rule out what we are hearing. These are not just nay sayers who are pointing in the direction of the bad guys. There are several documented reports on how black money from within India has been leaving the country continuously for years to the tune of 25 billion a year. A lot of the guys pointing the fingers are cut from the same filty cloth. They think the same way which is why their educated guesses can't be far off from the real numbers. Of course one would be naive to think this has nothing to do with the upcoming elections, but even if it's just election propoganda, do we really believe that a significant sum of Indian money is not illegally held in these various tax havens? Even if it's half of the puported sum, that's still a lot of money.

The Swiss banks, like you said, aren't just going to hand over data to us or to any ther nation unless there is a solid case built around their clients. That is what the whole point of discussion is about. Indian Enforcers don't seem to want to do anything and that obviously doesn't come as a big surprise to any of us. Proof isn't going to come walking in through the door. First comes suspicion. We have plenty of that. Next comes the investigation and that's not really happening the way it should be.

Regarding the Non-Forbes list... There is a reason why Forbes cannot do anything about it... because it's all unaccounted for. The figures have been estimated based on various leaks all over the world. Too bad we don't have any agencies pressing to dig up the dirt.

Let me re-iterate, this wasn't put in here to disucss the legitimacy of the various claims made, baseless or otherwise. One thing that we can all be certain of is extreme corruption that is rampant in our country. The only point of this discussion is to bring in ideas on how us regular, common people can fight corruption.

Think of it like an assignment at school... How would you fight the corruption in India

Tempers can flare easily. I urge all of you to chillax and think about the issue at hand as best as you can.

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More to read

India can now follow the black money | India: A billion aspirations | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters.com
Swiss Bank | Money | WikiLeaks | BJP | Government | UPA | Bank Account - Oneindia News

 

[artikle]

The main problem in finding a solution to this problem is you really cant trust anyone. Whatever action team, or group or council is formed, you cant say that every person in that group cant be influenced by anything, be it money or blackmail or something else. We dont even know whether the chief justice is corrupt or bent to some pressures in some cases. All we can do is trust and we already have many independent bodies which are clearly manipulated and influenced and we know that that trust is of no use. When it is a question of 1.4 trillion dollars no stone would be left unturned in turning the group in their favour, and some stone is bound to be the right one.

 

[l33t]

listen to Subramanian Swamy's speeches in youtube where he gives all details about the nehru family. total sadness so many are raping and pimping our motherland and we are helpless.

Listen to today's session at rajya sabha, the discussion about what is going to happen to the crew of MV Suez , there was an MP- S.S.Ahluwalia (BJP MP, Leader of Oppn in RS) - Well he's been into a lot of issues too, to cover them up, he tries pulling up loop holes when Scam Man Krishna talks about how "serious" he is about getting that ransom paid.

Subramnaim swamy is full of Sh!t !

Let me not censor that bit , He's filled with shit !

Only thing he's gotten into to save his face from disugised unemployment is filing RTI Applications and appearing in News talks , if people need to understand how full of shit this character is then looking back at the 80s and 90s helps .

Every darn politician looks at every event with a cynical thought , to gain political mileage and this is what it has come down to , all that cynicism has carried forwarded right from the Nehrus to the VP Singh era and now Mr.Innocent Singh isnt able to do anything ! And Mrs.Gandhi is probably thinking about how to keep Ali's/Kalmadi's/Raja's mouth Shut ! This is the situation , If we are able to get over it (and yes I'm not very optimistic about it) , then we'd need someone who'd have a firm grip on things AND he/she's honest (I dont think there are ANY which fit the bill currently)

actually hell yeah ,, i want rahul gandhi to come as next PM hes damn rich!!

Ever hear the phrase "Rich Get Richer, Poor Get Poorer" - Even RAJINIsaar says it , Sadly Politics is the truest example of it

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

can you point out a single issue where he is not objective without documentary proof. 2G petition in SC ? soniaji's credentials ? kgb connection petition in SC ? or the article about Rajiv gandhi's swiss bank account details that got published in the swiss magazine ?

It's pretty damn easy to MAKE documents , especially in India , All you need to do is pin up a 1000 buck note to the document you need a sign with and hand over the doc along with another 100 bucks to the peon who handles affairs in a public office , and hey presto ! you're done !

I'm not trying to say that this is how Swamy had gotten his documents , but its really easy to dig up documentary proof to something which aided the fraud , not the fraud itself.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

The Swiss banks, like you said, aren't just going to hand over data to us or to any ther nation unless there is a solid case built around their clients. That is what the whole point of discussion is about. Indian Enforcers don't seem to want to do anything and that obviously doesn't come as a big surprise to any of us.

It's not that the enforcers want none of it , Well let's look at it from their stand , they are force to keep their mouths shut buy their mouths getting stuffed with money , it could be a possibility that the babus might have even filed the pertaining paperwork , then look at the legal loopholes it would have to pass through, and eventually some darned politico will catch wind of it and screen the whole damn paperwork and bury it in the abyss ? Do we ever think about that ?

Well even if they did manage to get the message through , we now know the kind of "diplomatic" (apparently) issues we are facing to reveal it ?

The whole saga of curroption is a VERY VERY WELL Scripted masterpiece created by the system's top brass , a bloody nexus which has shown it never will give a damn about ethics , hell why am I even talking about ethics anyway :|

Think of it like an assignment at school... How would you fight the corruption in India

Make A Hitler , Pronto ! , Atleast he wouldn't really DIVERT funds

 

[blr_p]

the exact quantum of black money is not known. but there are credible estimates total quantum of money available and how much could be black money. just for a crude example, you can go through the global financial integrity report Global Financial Integrity - Reports - The Drivers and Dynamics of Illicit Financial Flows from India: 1948-2008 - Overview

The report talks about $462 billion,that too since independence. There are limitations because hawala and smuggling are not recorded anywhere so it could be higher. I haven't studied the methodology in depth used in this report but it appears respectable.

I also hope you are aware of the Hassan Ali case. Hasan Ali Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep, nothing has come of it to date and I don't expect anything either.

and I don't think Supreme court and Ram Jethmalani are fools to entertain such unsubstantiated claims Indian money stashed abroad a national plunder: Apex court (Lead)

Supreme court I will accept, Jethmalani is a BJP hack.

on the contrary many swiss and italian banks have been invited to open branches in India in 2007 itself.

and few sources have made it clear that they are ready to cooperate. and we are not even talking about tax havens like mauritius, isle of mans, singapore's (not much regulation regarding certain kind of companies).

Swiss banks will help India nab tax cheats: Nason
YouTube - Swiss banks will help India nab tax cheats: Nason

Swiss banks to reveal names once India okays treaty, says BJP - Rediff.com Business

Swiss banks ready to help India trace black money - Business News - IBNLive

Getting black money back is a myth: Dev Kar- Business Std from the author of your GFI report.

yes how will their mouth be clean in the public statements when their hands are not.
the reason is cock and bull but the query is not. If US can work and get details about 4250 such accounts from them why not India ?

What are we going to use to force them to part with that info ? Present cases that show money laundering. Have we done that yet ? no. Well, the swiss are not going to do our homework for us.

and the government does have information GovernanceNow.com | Swiss banks don't want to hide, so we don't want to seek!

Lots of claims made here, what's his backing ? How to seperate hearsay from fact in this article

but government is not acting as many politicians are also involved Rahul Gandhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And why did NDA pass over this godsend of an opportunity to finish him off once & for all when they were in office. Were their hands tied too ?

btw sops cheap subsidies come from sources like 3g auctions, income tax money etc which can be used for development instead of additional debt burden. and political parties are well financed by corporates which they generously (mis)use to get to power.

so this is not just media tamasha.

And more money is even better. Expenses are never ending for a govt. There is no excuse for a govt not to followup on tax evasion.

majority of the effort and shouting is to push the government to investigate, prepare the case and force the swiss banks and other tax havens... they can't ignore India's voice. what do you think ? are people dumb to remain silent even after the case on the likes of Hassan ali, 2g, cwg have come up ?

Swiss banks' love for Indian clients no secret, woo back depositors who withdrew funds on fear of action - Economic Times

Shout all you want, i don't think the govt has the required info to pursue the matter.

2g is all about corporate equality in the market place, its got nothing to do with lost revenue, because this 1.76 lakh crore figure is presumptive. I stopped wasting my time on that story long back when i figured there is no 'correct' price to sell spectrum at.

WTH were BJP & the left doing in 2008 when the sales were going on. They kept mum because their ppl were also minting money were't they. After all have cashed in this tamasha starts.

2g is a fixed match, its a scripted drama between congress & opposition for the entertainment of the public. Perfect premise to show how hard they are working in service of the coutnry

see the total government debt in the below articles.
India’s debt is 129pc of GDP, China’s 158pc of GDP

Now tell me what is india's debt ? What is the author of this site consuming to come up with 129 % ?

High inflation makes centre's debt look reasonably good - Economic Times

btw 2011-12 projected central govt debt is alone 44.2% (52.5% suggests finance commission) http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2011-12/bh/bh1.pdf

Exactly my point, which is to say debt as a % of GDP is a good deal lower than what the useless VE site linked by Satan showed.

yes, all stash their illegal money with proper documentary evidence. :rofl:

non-forbes is not credible.

there is.

No, there isn't! Your own source's figure is a third of it.

it has been done by even countries like nepal, italy, netherlands, US, UK, srilanka etc. no more exclusive laws need to be passed in this issue. the govt is not even acting on the present laws ('prevention of double taxation' agreements with many countries) due to vested interests. that is the atrocity.

Nepal & Sri lanka managed to get their black money back ?

and not even the law to prevent it in the future is even considered by the government (toothless lokpal bill). instead even the 'participatory notes' menace is still there.

Agree

and I don't believe advani's 'can be done easily' claims much. but it can be done. there are also not much publicised criteria like 'politically exposed person' clause when opening a swiss bank account. so it is easy to get politicians account than ordinary persons accounts.

so stop preaching indifference and hopelessness by giving lame reasons.

Wow, no i'm not preaching that at all. I'm just sceptical of the claims i hear. I don't like hopes being raised on false premises because then you end up indifferent & hopeless.

and other politicians care very well for public welfare :bleh:

That's not the point, everything he's done is self-serving.

can you point out a single issue where he is not objective without documentary proof. 2G petition in SC ? soniaji's credentials ? kgb connection petition in SC ? or the article about Rajiv gandhi's swiss bank account details that got published in the swiss magazine ?_

Simple, him suing Raja when a CBI investigation is going on is redundant except to get him on chat shows yapping and promoting himself.

Can you tell me what has come out of the motions he's filed so far ?

I've not read any independent legal reporting on them at all. I don't doubt he filed them.

All i hear about are his versions of what is happening. I need more corroborating reports.

swiss magazine ? this is considered adequate proof for a tv show not for the court.

Any time they have to go to the street (ie media) instead of the court tells me the case is weak to begin with.

 

[Darthcoder]

Rahul Gandhi, ZOMG

Zero tolerance, secret billions | Congress | Sonia Gandhi | Indian Express

 

[blkrb0t]

The world is a fu<ked up place, the more you know about it the sadder you become, that's the truth.

 

[blr_p]

Excellent points. While I do appreciate your POV and the fact that you have taken time out to get involved, the air of condescension you bring with you, is not. So how about we go on from here without it?

Let me correct this perception, i have no reason to be condescending towards you. You've not done anything to warrant it.

My intention is scepticism and a robust one at that. I'm attacking your earlier claims or your sources not you as a person per se. You or anyone willing & capable are more than welcome to return the favour

My aim isn't to win anything, its more rewarding to lose, rather its to learn which positions can be defended.

At most we have a few task forces from the opposition working on these numbers and some insider information from a few employees of the said banks.

That's the first problem, take what any politician says with a grain of salt, take what they say about other politicians with even less. It really galls me how so many ppl take it as gospel instead

There are several documented reports on how black money from within India has been leaving the country continuously for years to the tune of 25 billion a year.

No, there is just one and its not at the link you provided but at the one given by digital dude. More are welcome.

A lot of the guys pointing the fingers are cut from the same filty cloth.

Then the answer is to ask for better legislation. Which party is offering this ?

Five-pronged strategy to curb black money: Pranab : The Hindu : Jan 26 2011

This is not good enough. A laundry list of tedious platitudes and obscure, non time-bound plans to check the "menace of black money" as mentioned by a blogger.

They think the same way which is why their educated guesses can't be far off from the real numbers.

The figure quoted is $462billion, not far off isn't 1.4 trillion its a few hundred billion give or take. All depends on whether the models used are acceptable. The worst that can happen is for it to get panned and then we are back to square one, hope this does not happen.

but even if it's just election propoganda, do we really believe that a significant sum of Indian money is not illegally held in these various tax havens? Even if it's half of the puported sum, that's still a lot of money.

Sure, to be frank I would have been less concerned if DD's report came up with a trillion because it shows its sources, methodology & limitations. But the claims passing around do not have this at all. You've got to use a good foundation and materials to have a safe home.

Indian Enforcers don't seem to want to do anything and that obviously doesn't come as a big surprise to any of us.

How do you know this ?

Could it be we have a weak case to begin with and are afraid of failing to do it in the public's eye. I think we are being led on that its more feasible than is the case in reality. This idea is being pursued vigourously by the opposition to make the govt squirm.

Proof isn't going to come walking in through the door. First comes suspicion. We have plenty of that. Next comes the investigation and that's not really happening the way it should be.

Sure, but how do you make a strong case. Otherwise you have to resort to arm twisting and we're not strong enough yet to pull that off. Mission impossible. It's a dead end, instead look elsewhere, look at the whole system holistically & push for more feasible options. There are lots of possibilities here.

Don't fret over spilt milk, a friend told me once losing money isn't the end of the world, it can always be made again and more. Accept what is lost is gone for good. Use it as a lesson and to ensure it does not continue to happen. Forget the past, think about the future. Concentrating on getting the money back is ignoring the future and dwelling in the past. Do you see how ass backwards this is

Regarding the Non-Forbes list... There is a reason why Forbes cannot do anything about it... because it's all unaccounted for. The figures have been estimated based on various leaks all over the world. Too bad we don't have any agencies pressing to dig up the dirt.

So how do you know they are credible in the first place ?

Let me re-iterate, this wasn't put in here to disucss the legitimacy of the various claims made, baseless or otherwise. One thing that we can all be certain of is extreme corruption that is rampant in our country. The only point of this discussion is to bring in ideas on how us regular, common people can fight corruption.

Think of it like an assignment at school... How would you fight the corruption in India

- Develop a philosophy to attack opacity, increase accountability & transparency.
- Increase independence of institutions so they are not prone to govt interference.
- Encourage real investigative reporting and protect the reporters from gangsters trying to intimidate them. Resurrect Tehelka. Allow ppl to get the job done without having to worry about looking over their backs.
- Introduce witness protection programs & whistleblower laws so ppl aren't afraid to testify.
- Simplify processes & procedures, cut the redtape, lose all the additional useless checks whose only purpose is to justify more govt jobs at expense of productive citizens. This is a substantial systemic problem in itself. It takes just 15 days to setup a company in China, how long does it take in India ? Why ?
- Simplify taxes, somebody asked me is the situation better than it was in the past. I had to think about this for a bit. Because if you ask ppl they will always say either same or worse. But there is an improvement. Consider that the size of the black economy is half the size of the white economy. Conisder that during license raj & high income taxes, black economy was much bigger than white. Govt had less revenue and could not do anything, you said they are corrupt, but now they have more money, why is that. They realised that taxing ppl at extorionate levels only made honest ppl evade taxes. Think about it. So by lowering taxes they got more ppl to comply, and the revenues went up. No need any more to bribe to get phone line or car etc. much easier today isn't it.

Until you fight relentlessly for these nothing will change. Look at the ppl in Tunsia & Egypt, they had to fight to get what they wanted. Thats the way it works, always has, always will. RTI is an example of a fight that was fought and won. More such victories are required to get the country you want.

 

[rdst_1]

Some things that can or should be done:

1) Once someone is voted to power, he/she should be made to sign a contract, just like it is if you go for a job.

2) State funded elections. They will level the playing field for independent candidates, who then won't come under the pressure of a party.

3) Communities should sponsor citizens from amongst themselves (like retired teachers ) to stand for local elections.

4) Everyone should, in their own way, help the poor or illiterate. That's what these politicians do to get their votes. So you can imagine for yourselves how much you can influence them if you help them make a life.

The most important thing - One may sometimes fail at preventing injustice, but there must never be a time when one fails to raise their voice against it.

As for this present mess - The only way forward is by keeping the pressure on. There are a lot of good honest politicians too, but they need the right support, which they are finally getting from the SC.

PERSONAL OPINION - A lot of things that Ramdev says can curb corruption to a large extent, and i'm betting my money that he isn't going down without a fight. I am looking forward to the people that stand up for his party.

 

[kippu]

Rahul Gandhi, ZOMG

Zero tolerance, secret billions | Congress | Sonia Gandhi | Indian Express

i will read it in detail later but that author is the bjp chief of taskforce of blackmoney ... after which advani apologized for bringing in sonia's name in it , so on one hand they say she says , but at other level they apologize for it .... weird

 

[broadway]

Karan Thapar: LK Advani on March 29 said that as per credible estimates the sum was somewhere between $500 billion and 1.4 trillion. Where did Mr Advani get these figures from?

Arun Shourie: Actually, several studies have been done. The figures actually are much larger than that i.e. the Indian share that might be there. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) paper which was put out on October 2008 cites the range of estimates of money in tax havens. The range of estimates is from $1.5 trillion to $11.5 trillion.

Karan Thapar: But the OECD in fact is about tax abuse rather than illegality per se, tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Arun Shourie: But, even that is illegal. And therefore, it is an underestimate because, for instance, much of it is from trade data.

Karan Thapar: But that is the international figure. Mr Advani is purported to be the Indian share, but where does he get his figure from? Because all I can find is a floating reference on the net which is less than verified, it is not proven and it is probably speculated.

Arun Shourie:Actually, the estimates come from a study on these illegal flows and there is a chart given about India. It is not in the net, it is actually just a complete study.

Karan Thapar: You mean the Global Financial Integrity Report of 2009?

Arun Shourie: And those figures in my view are underestimates because they are based really on trade data. One of the ways in which it is done is, you look at the trade going from India figures and match with the exporting or importing company's underinvocing and overinvocing. And therefore, they don't take into account the Hawala transactions at all.

Karan Thapar:Which no one knows anything about ?

Arun Shourie: Nobody knows about but everybody knows that they are there. Therefore, the figures would be underestimated.

Karan Thapar: Except that we don't have a figure for them, I will come to the Global Financial Integrity survey in a moments time. First let's concentrate on Mr Advani's figure announced on March 29 of a range between $500 billion and $1.4 trillion. The problem is what he said on March 29, seems to contradict what he wrote to the Prime Minister on April 6, 2008. In that letter to the Prime Minister, he says, “It is widely known that trillions of dollars of Indian money are lying in different tax havens.†How within a year have trillions of dollars reduced to possibly just Rs 500 billion?

Arun Shourie: But supposedly if it is only $500 million, that is enough to double our power capacity immediately.

Karan Thapar: I agree, whatever the figure, it must be brought back.

Karan thapar interviewing arun shourie on black money - full sheet