Indian BLACK MONEY: 1.45 Trillion USD (1450 Billion USD / 65,25,000 Crores INR)
- Thread starter Satan
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Sure we don't have any significant trade blocks with the Europeans. But that is not the only leverage. India is not the only country having anxiety over tax haven nations. We have valid arguments like corruption, terrorism etc etc. We need to team up with the world, float an organisation and gang up together on tax havens with threats of disincentives. We can pile together several nations and tax havens cannot ignore that forever and compromise at some point. Some euro countries will join too. That is our leverage.
BJP has spelled out the process and it isn't a bloody expedition but tough diplomacy. If the congress drags its feet on this leverage then let us know the alternatives. no?
Else is it wrong to speculate that the gandhi family holds it own stack of moolah in those tax heavens?
BJP has spelled out the process and it isn't a bloody expedition but tough diplomacy. If the congress drags its feet on this leverage then let us know the alternatives. no?
Else is it wrong to speculate that the gandhi family holds it own stack of moolah in those tax heavens?
blr_p
Skilled
I asked that question because this interview vindicates what i've said earlier in the thread. Karan did a good job taking a hatchet to the BJP's propaganda here. You see Shourie lose it at some point and it becomes very clear how he tows the party line. Very little objective statements being made.
The whole story is just playing politics, nothing more. Entertainment for the masses. I've got better things to do with my time than get involved in some charade that has ZERO chance of suceeding because the premise is invalid. Wake me up when we start taking steps that have tangible chances of success.
India's position currently is 87 out of a list of 179. When this interview took place we were at 84. That does not qualify us as 'being among the most corrupt' regardless of how much Shourie might wish we actually were.
Here's a gem, i did not know whether to laugh or cry, decided on the former
There were three parameters this interview sought to examine.
What is the sum ?
$462 billion - x
x is x not what the BJP would like it to be !
how do we bring it back ?
some waffle here about how BJP would do it in 100 days.
how easy or difficult would it be?
Again, makes it look easy, if only you would vote for the BJP.
3/3 BJP FAIL!
The fact of the matter is unless you can show some money laundering took place there is NO WAY to get the info. BJP's case is premised on forcing the Swiss or whomever else to reveal their customers and their bank balances, ONLY THEN will they make their case.
This is a F'ing joke !
BJP got into power in my state with the help of the mining mafia, one of the three most corrupt sectors in the country. Getting a mining lease, getting it extended is all upto the whims of how much is put out. My state has become very corrupt so when BJP talks about tackling corruption on a national level, I do not have much faith in them AT ALL.
Let me spell this out, NO PARTY is interested in seriously tackling this issue.
What are they doing about the future ? so that ten years from now that figure isn't double what it is today ? Why is the media not asking this question ? Why is it ONLY being fanboy of whatever politcal parties choose to say. This indicates low independence on the part of the media, they cannot say what they would like to and should do.
I do not hear much talk about this at all. Because it amounts to capital controls, if they dare say anything about it, money will run away abroad even faster because there will be a panic that we are going back to the bad old days.
Our leverage depends on other countries pursuing the same, that is no leverage at all.
US & Germany could apply the requisite pressure because a great deal more money from their countries is stored in these banks.
Look, on a very simple level, money goes abroad because it fetches a higher return there. Why not create more inventives for ppl to invest their money here, in India. If you do that this problem goes away. Not only that we start to attract money from abroad as well. This is the case in the developed countries which is why they do not care much if the money of developing countries is stored in their countries banks because it just adds to their bottom line.
If the oppositoin want to be taken seriously then they need to ground their statements in verifable facts and not just empty rhetoric. This sort of stunt is only making it more easy for Congress to do what they please becaue there is no viable threat to their power.
The whole story is just playing politics, nothing more. Entertainment for the masses. I've got better things to do with my time than get involved in some charade that has ZERO chance of suceeding because the premise is invalid. Wake me up when we start taking steps that have tangible chances of success.
What does 'being among the most corrupt' mean ?
India's position currently is 87 out of a list of 179. When this interview took place we were at 84. That does not qualify us as 'being among the most corrupt' regardless of how much Shourie might wish we actually were.
Flippant answer, he knows Karan just nailed him on the BJP using higher estimates.
Here's a gem, i did not know whether to laugh or cry, decided on the former
The leader of the opposition is basing his charges on what is written in Wikipaedia ? :lol:
There were three parameters this interview sought to examine.
What is the sum ?
$462 billion - x
x is x not what the BJP would like it to be !
how do we bring it back ?
some waffle here about how BJP would do it in 100 days.
how easy or difficult would it be?
Again, makes it look easy, if only you would vote for the BJP.
3/3 BJP FAIL!
The fact of the matter is unless you can show some money laundering took place there is NO WAY to get the info. BJP's case is premised on forcing the Swiss or whomever else to reveal their customers and their bank balances, ONLY THEN will they make their case.
This is a F'ing joke !
BJP got into power in my state with the help of the mining mafia, one of the three most corrupt sectors in the country. Getting a mining lease, getting it extended is all upto the whims of how much is put out. My state has become very corrupt so when BJP talks about tackling corruption on a national level, I do not have much faith in them AT ALL.
Let me spell this out, NO PARTY is interested in seriously tackling this issue.
What are they doing about the future ? so that ten years from now that figure isn't double what it is today ? Why is the media not asking this question ? Why is it ONLY being fanboy of whatever politcal parties choose to say. This indicates low independence on the part of the media, they cannot say what they would like to and should do.
I do not hear much talk about this at all. Because it amounts to capital controls, if they dare say anything about it, money will run away abroad even faster because there will be a panic that we are going back to the bad old days.
Just read what you said there againbroadway said:
Our leverage depends on other countries pursuing the same, that is no leverage at all.
US & Germany could apply the requisite pressure because a great deal more money from their countries is stored in these banks.
Look, on a very simple level, money goes abroad because it fetches a higher return there. Why not create more inventives for ppl to invest their money here, in India. If you do that this problem goes away. Not only that we start to attract money from abroad as well. This is the case in the developed countries which is why they do not care much if the money of developing countries is stored in their countries banks because it just adds to their bottom line.
You do realise an opposition party can say whatever it wants because there is no downside for them. Their job is to score ponts and embarass the govt. Our job is to figure out whether they are making a valid point or are just full of it.broadway said:
They can say whatever they want, though note that Shourie was not willing to do so in this interview. He just passed the buck.broadway said:
If the oppositoin want to be taken seriously then they need to ground their statements in verifable facts and not just empty rhetoric. This sort of stunt is only making it more easy for Congress to do what they please becaue there is no viable threat to their power.
Much of what you've written is plain garbage and a waste of time if the argument is continued.
1) Regarding figures: The only people who know the approximate figures are the bank and anyone claiming figures other than those banks are estimates. Karan thapar, by spending almost half of the period on estimates and arguing over nothing was very juvenile.
2) Regarding conditions: Income is a voluntary disclosure. Hence, you cannot prove that an individual has laundered away his income unless you can read his mind. Such a condition is ridiculous. It says that the banks do not wish to disclose any information. It makes everything else "fair game" for the govts. Like germany who bribed the employees to steal a few bank details.
3) You are a critic of BJP and NDA by extension. No problem. But do you have to bring stuff of zero relevance to this thread?
Second, what do you mean by verifiable facts? We don't have the goddamn data. Do you think that by arguing about this with five different people on five different shows will yield you an approx figure?
1) Regarding figures: The only people who know the approximate figures are the bank and anyone claiming figures other than those banks are estimates. Karan thapar, by spending almost half of the period on estimates and arguing over nothing was very juvenile.
2) Regarding conditions: Income is a voluntary disclosure. Hence, you cannot prove that an individual has laundered away his income unless you can read his mind. Such a condition is ridiculous. It says that the banks do not wish to disclose any information. It makes everything else "fair game" for the govts. Like germany who bribed the employees to steal a few bank details.
3) You are a critic of BJP and NDA by extension. No problem. But do you have to bring stuff of zero relevance to this thread?
And what makes you assume that the world govts are comfortable with tax havens? Their not. The tax havens know this. If they realise that india is about to put together a coalition then they might approach india with a deal before that happens. Isn't that what happened with the case of america? I think that was what advani was trying to point at with his "100 day" challenge.
It doesn't matter if you loose. What matters is that you tried. If BJP says it wants to try then why speculate on the sincerity of the initiator? What about the one who doesn't initiate anything? And what does this tell about you?
Firstly, the black money issue doesn't provide entertainment. A lot of people feel it needs to be brought back. Many members on this forum feel that way too. So what makes you say that the people do not take the opposition seriously?
Second, what do you mean by verifiable facts? We don't have the goddamn data. Do you think that by arguing about this with five different people on five different shows will yield you an approx figure?
Brother, india is run by a coalition govt. Did the govt fall when inflation increased? No. Did the govt fall when CWG scam happened? No. Did the govt fall when 2G scam happened? No. Adarsh scam? CVC? Nothing happened. It isn't because of the bloody opposition. It's because of the regional parties. Why would they withdraw support when they get their part of the share?
blr_p
Skilled
What garbage ? You don't like it when errors are pointed out ?broadway said:
My statements are all qualified.
You post an interview that supports my view and now you change your mind
Lose your bias or are you afraid to knock the BJP cos I ain't afraid of knocking any politcal party out there.
Nah, the low end of the figures coming from GFI has more justification than the much larger ones cited by the BJP, which are works of fiction. Karan nailed that pretty well. Also brought up the point about legal money being there as well, which Shourie flatly refused to even consider.broadway said:
Think about that for a minute, the highest taxes you can pay ie corporate are not above 50%. So if income is declared the max the govt can claim is that figure. This is an important point that gets conveniently ignored. Full marks to Karan
Good, you just described the deadlock here, both are waiting on the other to make the first move.broadway said:
You are saying the Swiss (in this particular case) are not justified in asking us to show that money laundering has occurred ? before they will reveal any more details. That instead we should force them like the US. Thing is there is no precedent that can be used, we can't go to the Swiss and say hey, you gave the US the data now do the same for us.
Nobody AFAICT has put it that way in the media, all i hear is BJP wants to do this thing and Congress won't do that thing. Framing the argument in this manner leads to lame party to party babble, spokesperson of each party battling the other, both conveniently sidestepping the main point -- bugger all can be done.
BJP's the one doing the talking and i'm countering them. This is yet another one of their shenanigans. Every party does this, my hope is more ppl wise up to their games and force them to ask the right questions instead of wasting everybody's time & energy with these stupid scams.broadway said:
Maybe they ought to up the level of their game and give the Congress some real competition. Why bother to vote for the BJP in their current state, won't be better than Congress thats for sure. It's kinda sad how with Shourie the more i read about him the more biased he appears. He's a BJP hack. He evidently played loose & fast with the facts here to suit his party. And Shourie used to be a real mover & shaker in the earlier 90s
As for relevance i've highlighted the futility of the BJP's claim. They're lying when they say they can do it.
Nobody told me this, certainly not the media, but i think i'm right here and that is no money will be repatriated ever. I've posted Dev Kar's article earlier stating the same. Dev Kar who wrote the reports for GFI. I've found a few weaknesses with it that I wil take up with him at a later date.
What tangible moves have the world's govts made in this regard. Only the US has acted. Who else and what was the extent of information revealed. Can you show this point ?broadway said:
Oh, there's articles and even groups applying pressure to put an end to this but I don't see much movement here. The tax havens have very conveniently worked around or cooperated when required.
world govts ? think developed & developing govts. All tax havens are in the developed world.
The developed could not give a damn what the developing want. They don't worry about money siphoned out of developing countries that ends up in their banks. The tax havens are legal by the stds of the countries they operate in.
US did not put together a coalition they threathened UBS with a lawsuit which could be lengthy and have an uncertain outcome. The only reason this happened is because of the GFC. Oh and the US did not get ALL of the names, they wanted over 52,000 but in the end settled out-of-court for 4450. These were accounts in the names of ppl, so the simple counter is to ensure the bank does not have the account holders names and this is where the foundation & trusts etc come in. An account belongs to an org, and the acc holders are listed as one of the members on them. Fat chance of getting anything back as the problem became much more complex. How the hell are you going to prove how much belongs to whom ?broadway said:
Putting together a coalition is the easy part, we have put together lots of coalitions in the past but how effective were they ? If BJP can put together such a coalition then why can't Congress, because they have something to hide is the simplistic reason offered.
It's another one of these fantasies that will come to pass if only BJP is elected.
The problem is you think Congress will not do it because they have something to hide. But Pranab told the Brits that they did not need to give us aid, just the names of those in the UK's tax havens. Is this what a govt that wants to hide info says abroad in public ?
You do know that the UK will be sending over a billion pounds in aid over the next three years to India, much to the disgust of her citizens i might add.
That i'd rather not support a plan & its accompanying propaganda that has zero chances of any success and would support plans that do. I've already outlined several points so far.broadway said:
What have you or those that disagree done other than blindly support what the BJP says ?
Think through what they say, ask yourself is this feasible or just yet another con. I find very few do this online, than those i meet in IRL.
And i give a damn about what ppl feel. The only thing that matters is what is feasible or not. Legal or not. That this gets so much airtime in the media tells me there is no chance of success here. So why push it, because ppl feel strongly about it and it gives them views.broadway said:
nope, don't state figures like this or that trillion. Note the title of the thread. That figure isn't tenable.broadway said:
I do not support the claim that this is all happening because of regional parties. This statement is pro national parties, only ppl that use this argument are BJP, Congress & Left. Less competition for them and even less choice for the citizens. If ppl want to vote for Karuna or Maya or Nitish or Naveen then who is anybody to deny them that.broadway said:
All those scams have one component in common, embarass the ruling party. Why only scams that affect them come out, why not more, that cut across the board. This is what i expect to see don't you. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg and very selective disclosures at that.
If regional parties are being problematic its because they have the support of their ppl which allows them to command & demand. Once they lose that support they are very amenable to compromise. Its the duty of any ruling administration to deal with regional parties in its coalition, giving excuses like this is not acceptable.
Look my point in all of this is very simple. I hate hype. I hate to be given false hopes.
The hard part is it takes time & effort to understand what the hell these ppl are talking about. The media is useless in helping with this. They are very happy to be mouthpiece to any party and in this are not bringing out real scandals that should be addressed. Only neutral sources and those without vested interests can be trusted. This is why i feel the GFI report has much more merit than some crap the BJP has to say.
The solution is to lobby for more independence of cops, courts & media and increase acountability of those in charge. This is in a nutshell is what seperates the developed from the developing. Do that and all this tamasha will dissapear, we will then be discussing real issues instead of fantasies. But we still have this mentality that to rule over a country means ruling over everything, all institutions incld in which case you can be sure that we will contine to get mediocre performance from everybody concerned.
A lot of what you said was anti-BJP propaganda. It has become a fashion to blast that party. The issue is ignored. I recognized the trend in your post.blr_p said:What garbage ? You don't like it when errors are pointed out ?
My statements are all qualified.
You post an interview that supports my view and now you change your mind
Lose your bias or are you afraid to knock the BJP cos I ain't afraid of knocking any political party out there.
You must have interpreted the interview as per your own perspective.
Again, your ability to blast all and every party is not a proof of a strong argument. Why is that you shift your focus on this political party rather than the issue at hand?
I am yet to understand what karan has nailed. They are arguing over estimates(yes, estimates). Even the GFI figures are estimates. Why is that hard for you to understand?blr_p said:
Even ten percent of that amount is a very large figure. But that is not the end goal. The individuals need to explain to the authorities about the genuineness of the source of their income. Corruption is the primary target.blr_p said:Think about that for a minute, the highest taxes you can pay ie corporate are not above 50%. So if income is declared the max the govt can claim is that figure. This is an important point that gets conveniently ignored. Full marks to Karan
The swiss only understand the language of arm-twisting. India has the capacity to assemble a force. Many from the G20 have shown willingness to pursue this campaign. If india still chooses to drag its feet then its either lacking the will or something within the congress is stopping it to pursue.blr_p said:
From here - G20 summit: Blacklisted tax havens face sanctions:blr_p said:
Switzerland, Singapore, the Cayman Islands, Monaco, Luxembourg and Hong Kong are among 45 territories blacklisted on Thursday by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and now threatened with punitive financial retaliation for their banking secrecy.
Of the offending jurisdictions, 40 "have committed to the internationally agreed tax standard" but have yet to implement it.
They only compromise with nations that have the capacity to build a consensus: eg USA.
USA did what it had to. They pressed hard and forced the swiss to accept US laws - US laws in sovereign switzerland? Can you realise the degree of background diplomacy that went in this? It is said that they settled out of court. That is the PR story.blr_p said:
The NAM came up in the 60's and represented an anti-west coalition. The G20 has nations from europe and USA could also possibly involve itself.blr_p said:
Regarding german assistance: The german intelligence purchased the bank account details and started investigation. They found that the trail of the money had international connections. So they offered the information openly to the world "free of charge". This was done to assist the germans in investigation. Several countries assisted investigations and initiated action. India choose to remain neutral and thus inviting public outrage. Finally, india was forced to participate in the investigation but for some reason, it refused to accept the german information "openly". It established a "double taxation treaty" with germany to accept the information. This treaty had a clause attached to it called "secrecy" clause. This clause restricted india from revealing the names of the indian citizens(obtained from the german intel) in the public domain. Now when the BJP(in the parliament) requests the congress to divulge the german intel, the congress cites the secrecy clause and gets away with it. Why did congress choose this method? Hence this led many to speculate that the gandhi family or some people from congress itself have huge sums of illegal money stashed away in swiss banks. Hint: bofors
I do not know what pranab and his govt "says" to england. But is this what a govt "does" to bring back the black money?
That "UK aid" argument is nothing compared to what the british made from taxing the entire indian continent during the british raj for 200 years. The british collected taxes from a region that ranked 2nd(after china) in GDP. How long has the british been giving aid to india? 60 years max? How much does it form a part of its GDP? Hardly 1 percent.blr_p said:
List of regions by past GDP (PPP) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
navs27
Disciple
watch this and all the other part to know how deep is the corruption problem in India...This man really tears apart everything
YouTube - Lecture of Rajiv Dixit at Gwalior Ramdev Bharat Swabhiman part 1
YouTube - Lecture of Rajiv Dixit at Gwalior Ramdev Bharat Swabhiman part 1
I dont know about sources ,but I remember reading some articles from the Hindu's editorials/TOI's - Here's what I remember
1975ish/ somewhere in that ballpark he met JP , the then leader of the almost created janata party , those people were disgruntled to have a Harvard educated 'boy' in the party's high command, SS was quick to take advantage of this and he managed to become close to JP esp during JP's time at sarvodaya , that's when the emergency and all that happened, and somehow he managed to get out of the situation.
During this time was when he started playing about the media and started spreading a lot of rumours about the state of the country / I faintly remember the columnist subtly abusing him in this regard / but yes he did ignite a lot of fire to the media - most of which was false. 1980-elections I guess he got elected to the parliament once again - Pretty disputed this one- got himself re-elected too, 91' he became a member of the planning commision and bloated a load of crap , which he still has cases pending against
- I think google should reveal a good portion of his part too. Well all in all he's a pretty cunning old cat , considering him charging the congress with i d k what sort of legal action when he himself has a lot of cases against him filed by people in the congress goes to show what he's really upto (that i guess is a safe assumption to make.)
1975ish/ somewhere in that ballpark he met JP , the then leader of the almost created janata party , those people were disgruntled to have a Harvard educated 'boy' in the party's high command, SS was quick to take advantage of this and he managed to become close to JP esp during JP's time at sarvodaya , that's when the emergency and all that happened, and somehow he managed to get out of the situation.
During this time was when he started playing about the media and started spreading a lot of rumours about the state of the country / I faintly remember the columnist subtly abusing him in this regard / but yes he did ignite a lot of fire to the media - most of which was false. 1980-elections I guess he got elected to the parliament once again - Pretty disputed this one- got himself re-elected too, 91' he became a member of the planning commision and bloated a load of crap , which he still has cases pending against
- I think google should reveal a good portion of his part too. Well all in all he's a pretty cunning old cat , considering him charging the congress with i d k what sort of legal action when he himself has a lot of cases against him filed by people in the congress goes to show what he's really upto (that i guess is a safe assumption to make.)
blr_p
Skilled
You don't think they deserve it with the demonstrably half assed statements they've make in this context ? We're not talking about mere difference of opinion here, but playing loose & fast with the facts as Shourie did in that interview.broadway said:
Do you not miss the inherent irony when they say they want to tackle corruption after such behaviour ?
Don't you find the term task force by an opposition party an oxymoron. Which dumbass came up with that idea.
Oh pray tell what will such a task force unearth. Why naturally whatever is decided beforehand by the leadership and evidence is selectively chosen to match that agenda. This is known as a conspiracy theory in other areas. I mean why even bother, its going to get put in the bin by anybody sane enough to understand the implications anyway.
Naturally all of this passes unquestioned over the heads of the true believers, which is tragic because they are its worst enemies in this case. An inept opposition party is not in the interests of this country. I swear every time BJP ****s up like this i will blame them for screwing up the country because they only let Congress get away with even more crap. Its not just Congress vs BJP, ANY ruling state party that faces no credible opposition means the opposition has failed and maybe been copted in the worst case. I don't give a sh!t about congress, BJP or any other damn party, only india matters.
If BJP has pretension of ruling this country then they will be held up to higher stds just like any other opposition party out there and they have to pass them. This way each govt is better than the next, this is where progress comes from. Anything less and India does not need them, we can stick with the status quo just fine. Let somebody else more capable step up. I sincerely hope it has become a fashion to bash BJP or any other useless state opposition party because it means more ppl are waking up.
Now, do you get where i'm coming from.
Ah, no, the GFI figures are estimates using some sort of methodoly & model. What methodoloy does Shourie's figures use ? None that is mentioned with as many qualifications as the GFI one.broadway said:
Shourie trying to put down the GFI figures as mere estimates is a low shot. The report very clearly mentions that its a conservative amount. The argument is about the higher figures which have no basis at all which Karan nailed.
I will accept it is higher than the GFI figures but how much more isn't clear and its bad practice to be coming up with figures out of the air.
The presumption here is corruption. One is considered guilty and needs to prove their innocence. This is a fishing expedition nothing less.broadway said:
According to this guardian article the swiss are already OECD compliant.broadway said:
So can our govt guarantee that they will preseve these names in confidence ? of course, but the swiss ain't buying it. This Hassan Ali episode does not do much to inspire confidence.
How bout the reason mentioned above, that this information is not to be divulged to the public, its to be used for the purposes of investigating tax fraud. Insisting on revealing the list is just making politics, it serves no purpose.broadway said:
The bolded bits i am suspicious about, ample room for speculation. There needs to be more research on that.
You missed the point, all this money went abroad AFTER independence, Pranab thinks there's a great deal more in British banks than they are giving in aid.broadway said:
Watch this lecture on blip tv by the GFI director about funds flow, its about all developing countries.broadway said:
Illicit financial flow and their impact on development-Blip TV
or just download it using this site
He mentions that corrupt govt officials make up only 3%, drugs & crims counts for 30% and corporate evasion makes up 65%. Thats the bigger pie to concentrate on.
There is a norwegian site that talks about corruptoin in the developing world,
www.u4.no
enter India into the search box and quite a few reports come up talking about corruption in various areas.
Bjp has ruled this country for hardly 5 years. Congress has been ruling since independence. That fact alone screams volumes.
The money in the banks is another argument.
Those figures do not consider hawala transfers. Money launderers would use that route. There is no way anyone can guess an approx figure on hawala transactions. Even if they were considered by some means, they would still be estimates just like GFI's trade figures. You end up with a very wide range.blr_p said:
Tax haven nations are free to articulate whatever laws they needs to attract customers to park money in their country. By that same token, foreign govts are also free to consider imposing their local laws on tax haven nations if it involves their citizens and their money. The swiss can fire all the semantics, adjectives and local laws they have at them. It is all fair game.blr_p said:
That is an arbitrary argument. IMO if the individuals do not voluntarily declare their income then things like these become a fair game.blr_p said:
I don't care what pranab and his govt thinks about settlements. The british raj taxed our GDP in its entirety for more than 150 years. Let the british transfer every single penny of their annual tax collections for an equivalent number of years. That will make it even.blr_p said:
The money in the banks is another argument.
broadway said:
Frankly , this is too damn unrealistic ,If you get the chance you'd probably steal the koh-i-noor ! (no offense) What's the point of recovering say like 30-40 Million Rupees (Thats the max which we'd have paid to the British) - and yes even if they agree to pay us the stash, the will never in the hell revalue it to its current prices.
^Britain is not under any legal obligation to payback the loot of the raj.
But if a payback is indeed considered, it would be equivalent to the total UK tax collections for a period of at least 100 years.
A few billion pounds worth of "aid" money stretching for 2-3 years is peanut money compared to the grand loot. The britians can cry all they want. Fact is they can never make it even. Definitely not with with this "aid" money. They should accept history and STFU.
But if a payback is indeed considered, it would be equivalent to the total UK tax collections for a period of at least 100 years.
A few billion pounds worth of "aid" money stretching for 2-3 years is peanut money compared to the grand loot. The britians can cry all they want. Fact is they can never make it even. Definitely not with with this "aid" money. They should accept history and STFU.
blr_p
Skilled
Then one could also say that Congress is the more sophisticated, suave and capable.broadway said:
You still seem to be under the impression that the bulk of money stashed abroad is in the name of politicians. Watched that video yet ?
It isn't. It's mostly the rich & corporates, politicians would be there but in the minority. If one talks about getting the money back, then one is necessarily going against the corporates & the rich of this country. If this perception takes hold, we will be entering a new problem altogether. Guess what they'll do ?
An elder told me that the BJP is a business man's party. You really think BJP will go against the hand that feeds them ? Not a chance. There is more likelihood that Congress or the left will be more successful here, just going by who these parties represent.
So all that is desired here is to show that the Gandhi's have 'x' in their account. We will forget about the bulk that is held by others. Is this being serious about bringing the money back or just a scalping expedition for political expediency ? if that's the case then call it such, instead of the much more broader tackling corruption tag being sought here
Politicians need money during elections. They are all partaking in this to further their aims. You can tackle this by reforming political campaign finances. How transparent is it how much a political party receives and from whom. Which party is asking for reforms like this to date ?
If you break the shadow finance link here then there is less reason for politicans to protect their donors. It becomes less about money and more about real issues.
Hawala is cleared mentioned in the report as a limitation, smuggling as well. OF course they have occurred, i've already said that the figure is likely higher than GFI's figure. The question is how do you make a range ? you cannot, without speculating.broadway said:
Shourie's attack that GFI's work is also speculating falls short of the mark, GFI has arguably set a lower bound there. If you like its given some clarity in an otherwise unknown area.
Ah, but you lose a signficant bit of your charge if they say they WILL reveal information provided its kept in confidence vs not revealing anything at all. This minor qualification seems to have been ignored. It's been accepted by the OECD countries and the US as well.broadway said:
So if the BJP asks for the list to be revealed then its actually acting to keep the Swiss from sharing anything at all, isn't it. Whose side are they on, because there seems to be a difference between words said and actions taken.
You're saying what they've offered isn't sufficient. But the alternative is not there. You can keep pushing for it, wake me up if you get anything via that route.broadway said:
Watch that video especially from the 20 minute mark where he suggests ways to curtail rather than stop these illicit flows. There is a great deal of stuff that needs to be done amongst govts in the world before one is able to succeed here. Its advocating more transparency in global fianance. That will be a tricky thing to achieve unless the will is there. The hardest is to get what they call harmonisation of tax laws across the world, because funds only flow to places when there is a difference and countries always want to attract funds legal or not.
Well, Pranab thinks there's much more in those banks than any aid that can be given. The Brits were upset that billion was coming to India because they were facing cuts across defense, health & schooling but the aid budget was going to be increased. The aid they are giving is going to the states of MP, Bihar & Orissa, to do with helping keep girls in schools & health care. Girls tend to be neglected in those areas. Harping on them for past wrongs will make them send their funds elsewhere, its not a very smart move. I see this as a victory of aid agencies here in winning that amount.broadway said:
The congress does mention bilateral agreements as one among the road maps to getting back the black money. They even mention alteration of old agreements to remove the secrecy clauses. But they aren't doing much. In fact, they seem to be "compelled" to work against the mentioned campaigns. They either have direct or indirect interests in swiss banks, would you not speculate?blr_p said:
blr_p
Skilled
pls2use normal text outside quotes as its harder to reply otherwise.
We've been more socialist in the past and the problem was much worse then as a function of national GDP.
The only party AFAIK asking for this is the election commision. It has to cut across the board. They can attack each others sponsors as much as they want. The point is to make it more transparent, so all know whether govt is serving the people or somebody else.
You reach this conclusion because you do not see any progress in the case and say Congress is dragging their feet. I don't find this reason convincing.
Quite, so the onus would be on you to show it was right in the first place rather than for me to pull of the much harder feat of proving a negative. It's your statement so substantiate it. Can you ? -- show that the bulk of monies stashed abroad belongs to politicians.broadway said:
Ah, but you'd have to go after everybody that was guilty in that case otherwise its not fair. In fact it would be downright suspicious that only some were caught and others got away scot free.broadway said:
We've been more socialist in the past and the problem was much worse then as a function of national GDP.
I don't follow what you mean by german intel info ? Read what you said earlier about info being provided and we not doing anything but would need some more sources (intl as well as domestic) to corroborate this.broadway said:
Yes, but why be selective, go for the lot. Why hold back just to create some sensation instead. Depending on how many and who are caught, perceptions can be manipulated easily.broadway said:
I'm not saying they're illegal, i'm saying we do not have a good idea who is paying how much to whom. Make a law that forces parties to disclose the relevant info when queried by the public.broadway said:
The only party AFAIK asking for this is the election commision. It has to cut across the board. They can attack each others sponsors as much as they want. The point is to make it more transparent, so all know whether govt is serving the people or somebody else.
But if the Swiss provide the info and ask to us to keep it confidential then why is there a problem ?broadway said:
Are you saying you do not accept the validity of GFI's figures ?broadway said:
Illegal ? under whose laws ?broadway said:
Does not explain why there is this need for the list to be revealed. Keep the identities secret, prosecute them if necessary, and collect witheld taxes. Where is the problem ?broadway said:
Can you show how Congress are compelled to work against mentioned campaigns ?broadway said:
You reach this conclusion because you do not see any progress in the case and say Congress is dragging their feet. I don't find this reason convincing.
It doesn't matter who it belongs to. What matters is that it is there.blr_p said:
The stolen bank accountsblr_p said:
IMO the congress chose the DTT method to go through the list themselves(if it had any "familiar" names) before it handed it over to the supreme court. The assessment was briefed by fmr head of the intel bureau ajit doval on indian tonight. It was aired in the second week of feb. I have that particular episode on some disc.blr_p said:
It is a noble suggestion. But after a glance at the number of recognized and unrecognised political parties in india, i wonder where to look.blr_p said:
Agreed. But i think the information should at least be disclosed among the members of lok sabha and the heads of all recognized political parties.blr_p said:
Reference material maybeblr_p said:
Its a metaphor. There services are a deterrent to transparency. Arguably, the world has a right to isolate switzerland.blr_p said:
That was based on my "assumption" that a few more hasan ali's would crop when the full list is revealed forcing public outrage and pressure to reveal the names of those guilty "hasan ali's".blr_p said:
One of the steps in the mentioned road maps, reworking on all the existing 30 or so DTT's to remove the secrecy clauses, the govt went ahead and "initiated" another DTT agreement with the very same binding secrecy clause. Even when the germans were distributing it openly with other countries, without any binding treaties, india insisted on DTT.blr_p said:
More on DTT treaties here : Swiss bank stash is safe for now
and here : Ratify the UNCAC: BJP tells Govt
blr_p
Skilled
And the question right from the start is we have a low end figure and nothing more. I think Karan established that but you seem bent upon defending Shourie here.broadway said:
Is there any coroborating german web links about this list ?broadway said:
All i see are indian sources and that just one side of the story.
Why ? That would be breaching the conditions.broadway said:
Was there a witch hunt when the americans or germans got the info ?
But they've cooperated with others why is it there seems to be a problem with India.broadway said:
Again, why is there this requirement to divulge to all & sundry. That parties demand this makes me suspicious about their intentions. Maybe they want to protect their own ppl too. In that case lets forget this whole charade.broadway said:
What was the reason given for the bolded part ?broadway said:
I do not trust what ppl say about this because info is very conveniently witheld to make politics.
You say the germans were open to sharing this but what conditions does that come with ?