India's regional foreign policy needs a massive shift


booo

BA BA BA BABANANA
Veteran
This guy usually talks sense.
This guy conveniently omits relationships between the quad. A lot of BS. If you look at the global shift for India, it is turning out to be authoritarian regimes like china, Iran etc... vs democracies. developing good relationship with countries like china, Pakistan and Iran will be bad in the long term.
Indian got isolated from world when we moved closer to Russia in the 50s along with Nehru and Indira's socialist policies like nationalizing everything. We are still suffering even today due to those policies. got disconnected from other democracies like Europe and became very corrupt. It wasn't until PV Narsimha Rao's policies that started reversing India's stunted growth.

if we go back to some history lessons, Tata Airlines was very successful until 1953 nationalization called Air corporations act which made tatas to forcibly sell the airlines which is now called Air India. (https://spontaneousorder.in/how-the-air-corporations-act-1953-came-to-haunt-indian-aviation/) After this, Air India was never profitable even though they had monopoly in India.

in the 70's Indian tax for private enterprises was hitting 97% this was basically the root cause for all the swiss bank account which were used in order to cook books.

In my opinion, India moving closer to democracies and moving away from authoritarian regimes is a good sign. When we think about countries, we have to think in decades and not years; in the short term the relationships may look bad but in long term its good for India.
 

6pack

Well-Known Member
ex-Mod
Indian got isolated from world when we moved closer to Russia in the 50s along with Nehru and Indira's socialist policies like nationalizing everything. We are still suffering even today due to those policies. got disconnected from other democracies like Europe and became very corrupt. It wasn't until PV Narsimha Rao's policies that started reversing India's stunted growth.
Not everything is bad about socialism. The way it was implemented was really bad like how everything Indian babus do. You need to understand that India was still trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. Everyone in administration were used to taking commands from their British higher ups and used to the British way of doing things. All these things have a lasting impact on the way things are done.

Even if India did not take a hybrid socialist type of policy and instead took to capitalism, we would still be in this muck right now. Just look at how corporations in the USA have reduced their workers to disposable human units. Payment by hour, very few sick leaves, fire at will, almost no holidays in the entire year etc. The way I see it, both types of economic policies have a bad impact on society. I don't have enough brain cells to think about any policy that will work for India because Indians are inherently lazy and don't like to learn new things.
 

booo

BA BA BA BABANANA
Veteran
Not everything is bad about socialism. The way it was implemented was really bad like how everything Indian babus do. You need to understand that India was still trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. Everyone in administration were used to taking commands from their British higher ups and used to the British way of doing things. All these things have a lasting impact on the way things are done.

Even if India did not take a hybrid socialist type of policy and instead took to capitalism, we would still be in this muck right now. Just look at how corporations in the USA have reduced their workers to disposable human units. Payment by hour, very few sick leaves, fire at will, almost no holidays in the entire year etc. The way I see it, both types of economic policies have a bad impact on society. I don't have enough brain cells to think about any policy that will work for India because Indians are inherently lazy and don't like to learn new things.
Its very simple, anything managed by government is inefficient. you see, government is driven by populism rather than talent. Our government divisions are rotten by reservations instead of talent.

Now, regarding work culture in USA... you have no clue. The kind of work life balance, worker safety even for hourly employees is in a league of its own. don't even get me started on comparing IT workers. There is a reason USA is called land of opportunity.

Indian system is rotten because government has too much power but is full of incompetent people. i.e., incompetent people have too much power and rule the country. Populism doesn't bring the best talent to the top competition does. capitalism is all about competition.
 

6pack

Well-Known Member
ex-Mod
Lol. Okay. Let's say the work culture in USA is a league of its own. Then why is the internet full of people complaining about just 4 days of paid leave in a year and unpaid sick leaves? Why are there so many millions of jobless people now in the USA? Why so many people are suing Amazon or Uber etc for bad treatment of employees? I see comments like people working in Amazon warehouse peeing in bottles because they don't get time off work for such basic needs. I've even seen stories of how Tesla treats their workers. There are documentaries on Tesla, Boeing etc not following proper safety procedures while manufacturing things. Why are so many American corporations outsourcing manufacturing to countries with lax moral, environmental and other policies? Why?

Indian system is rotten because government has too much power but is full of incompetent people. i.e., incompetent people have too much power and rule the country. Populism doesn't bring the best talent to the top competition does. capitalism is all about competition.

Govt running things is not ideal but corporations running things is also not ideal. You're looking at things from rose tinted glasses and cannot see the underlying aspect. Even capitalism is rotten. It's even more rotten than socialism. You're just oblivious to it or you want to ignore it because it favours your viewpoint.
 

booo

BA BA BA BABANANA
Veteran
Then why is the internet full of people complaining about just 4 days of paid leave in a year and unpaid sick leaves? Why are there so many millions of jobless people now in the USA? Why so many people are suing Amazon or Uber etc for bad treatment of employees? I see comments like people working in Amazon warehouse peeing in bottles because they don't get time off work for such basic needs. I've even seen stories of how Tesla treats their workers. There are documentaries on Tesla, Boeing etc not following proper safety procedures while manufacturing things. Why are so many American corporations outsourcing manufacturing to countries with lax moral, environmental and other policies? Why?
check the data: https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp
Tesla? seriously? https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/06/the-10-most-attractive-employers-for-engineering-students.html
 

6pack

Well-Known Member
ex-Mod
Man, I don't know what to say. Are you living in the USA now? Got your green card and shifted there permanently? If not, why are you still here in this rotten country like you put it? Your link shows USa is not even in the top 10 list of quality of living index in 2020. All that stats by an American company and made wrt american lifestyle. Does that mean people living in poor countries don't lead a quality life? Second link is for engineering field only. What about others? Your'e picking and choosing stuff like i said to push your views.

Even i can pick and choose links.


 

booo

BA BA BA BABANANA
Veteran
If not, why are you still here in this rotten country like you put it?
Criticism and freedom of speech is one of the indicators of developed societies. it doesn’t matter where i live.
my only advise to you is that you invest in traveling. it will give you perspective.
btw, will stop engaging in arguments. we both have fundamentally different ideologies. you think socialism is good i dont.
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
How come trump won then instead of hillary?

Right-wing supporters... :angelic:
May be its market share was very less at that time, may be they thought they couldnt get away with it then. But now with media and social media platforms turning a blind eye to the wrongs of biden, they may have been empowered. Demcrats dont even hide anymore. Investigations on ex obama officials will be squashed now. Bet Juilian assange will be extradited to US.

MIC(military industrial complex) wants wars they where pushing trump to bomb syria and iran. Pulling out of Afghanistan is also not welcome by MIC.

Expect Biden to do what US does the best, poke its nose where it doesn't belong and regime change wars. eg Iraq and Libya, syria.
 

Julian

om nom nom
Veteran
May be its market share was very less at that time, may be they thought they couldnt get away with it then. But now with media and social media platforms turning a blind eye to the wrongs of biden, they may have been empowered. Demcrats dont even hide anymore. Investigations on ex obama officials will be squashed now. Bet Juilian assange will be extradited to US.

MIC(military industrial complex) wants wars they where pushing trump to bomb syria and iran. Pulling out of Afghanistan is also not welcome by MIC.

Expect Biden to do what US does the best, poke its nose where it doesn't belong and regime change wars. eg Iraq and Libya, syria.
So you think Biden co. will interfere in war-torn regions in the guise of liberating the oppressed? Let's see. The American public isn't as supporting of foreign war these days. Even the liberals. The MIC is definitely going to try to make billions more so we will have to see how this plays out.
 

chiron

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Its very simple, anything managed by government is inefficient. you see, government is driven by populism rather than talent. Our government divisions are rotten by reservations instead of talent.

Now, regarding work culture in USA... you have no clue. The kind of work life balance, worker safety even for hourly employees is in a league of its own. don't even get me started on comparing IT workers. There is a reason USA is called land of opportunity.

Indian system is rotten because government has too much power but is full of incompetent people. i.e., incompetent people have too much power and rule the country. Populism doesn't bring the best talent to the top competition does. capitalism is all about competition.
Governments are not about efficiency but protection of the people. How cost effective is having and maintaining a military force. The western system of debt is hardly opportunity.
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
So you think Biden co. will interfere in war-torn regions in the guise of liberating the oppressed? Let's see. The American public isn't as supporting of foreign war these days. Even the liberals. The MIC is definitely going to try to make billions more so we will have to see how this plays out.
It was never about liberating, the people who join the US military may think that, but these days they arent dumb, they know they are not welcome by common people in any muslim country.

But for the deep state those who threaten their perceived world order will be put down. It was always about that or the oil or in the future lithium/cobalt reserves. Libya's Gaddafi wanted a african dollar, so he needed to go.
Syria has a russian base , syria and iran ports are no go for american companies cheap oil from iraq.
Hillary wanted to arm the terrorists with stinger missiles in syria and she wanted the USAF to put a NFZ on Syria, that was checkmated by Russians. US Military hates both the Clintons after somali and bengazi.

Its unclear what Biden would do, considering corona the last thing the US would theoretically want is a war. He did get lots of muslim votes, but even among them the shia sunni divide is there, may be they will pick a different target, Venezuela?

The deep state would probably keep a check on Biden china moves. Since they know the next cold war like foe is china with a xitler in power for decades.
 

Julian

om nom nom
Veteran
Criticism and freedom of speech is one of the indicators of developed societies. it doesn’t matter where i live.
my only advise to you is that you invest in traveling. it will give you perspective.
btw, will stop engaging in arguments. we both have fundamentally different ideologies. you think socialism is good i dont.
Your first line is probably the only true thing about the US today, freedom is everything. But even then they're probably still behind their neighbour Canada though.

And i too have heard so much about blue collar worker abuse, one of the most publicized is the world's biggest company Amazon. Think i read bad things about Walmart too. So while some sectors like IT may be doing well in the work-life balance department, it's far from a panacea.

Also, there's no perfect philosophy or economic theory, but i would say overall socialism or even communism (in theory, not the political systems active today), are far better than the rot and filth of capitalism, which has pretty much destroyed the world today, socially and environmentally. The materialistic comforts of capitalism may seem like the better option but we're headed downhill in the long run.
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This NRI friend of mine in California is very sad Trump lost. He says that what he says doesn't matter, his actions are important. Apparently the economy peaked under Trump. Also he was strong on NATO, WHO and China. Then he mentions immigration. I remind him he's an NRI. I said the way things were going maybe even existing h1bs could be kicked out in a few years. If he had to return to India with his family (wife is also an h1b in IT) would he still support Trump? (He's bought a house in Cali). His answer is i will accept the law of the land.

He says the only reason Trump lost is because of the virus. I said yeah, because he completely mishandled the response. Went around without a mask and actually caught the virus himself. The reply was the virus is a Chinese conspiracy which worked to Biden's advantage.
 
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6pack

Well-Known Member
ex-Mod
Criticism and freedom of speech is one of the indicators of developed societies. it doesn’t matter where i live.
my only advise to you is that you invest in traveling. it will give you perspective.
btw, will stop engaging in arguments. we both have fundamentally different ideologies. you think socialism is good i dont.

Are you taking about USA ? The same place where police openly beat, pepper sprayed and arrested journalists from other countries like UK and Australia on TV during the recent protests? Same USA where they arrest only black reporters? Real democracy looks like that I guess. Then we shouldn't blame Modi or any Indian govt when they arrest journalists on any charges.

If I'm not mistaken, I wrote:
The way I see it, both types of economic policies have a bad impact on society.
How exactly does it say I think socialism is good? For the record, no economic policy will work on India because people are very greedy and lazy here. Even china type one party system won't work here. Our MP's will find something else to waste time during parliament hours instead of the usual my party your party, you said, we said etc. No problem if you do not want to talk to me. Just ignore me. Simple.
 

adder

Well-Known Member
Veteran
Left don't even hide anymore, this US election has massive amounts of fraud. The US has become a laughing stock, they can no longer poke their noses in other country elections.

 

red dragon

Justiceforall
Veteran
I know next to nothing about work culture in the IT sector in US. But it's certainly not that great for doctors.
Where else in the world you must attend hospital @ 7 in the morning without emergency? Most of my friends working there are not exactly happy with the work culture. Even a consultant often gets paid on hourly basis!!
The entire system is crazy, some working in critical care received major paycuts despite working overtime!!
They are not on any work permit visa or similar, all legit citizens for years!!
Even our small and financially weak country treats us better. Yes, people are underpaid here compared to US, but that income is 100% guranteed for 24 months, no matter what.
 

Julian

om nom nom
Veteran
Left don't even hide anymore, this US election has massive amounts of fraud. The US has become a laughing stock, they can no longer poke their noses in other country elections.

Yes, it's a left+RSS combined conspiracy.

The Bidens settled in Nagpur a couple centuries ago. They slowly setup and infiltrated the RSS who has now fixed the US election. Trustno1. The truth is out there.
 

chiron

Well-Known Member
Veteran
The entire system is crazy, some working in critical care received major paycuts despite working overtime!!
Majority of the caregiver jobs in nursing homes in Canada don't get paid sick leave. So they are a lot more inclined to show up at work even with symptoms and I don't blame them. Same with the minimum wage jobs like grocery clerks, bus and taxi drivers.
 

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