Inverter damaging CFLs :(
- Thread starter arun687
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^ It's actually a home UPS. The Luminous one I'm having is also a home UPS. There's a switch to turn on UPS mode, which claims to work just as any other UPS for a computer, although I do not know if it is as effective as a normal UPS.
2.2 KVA would provide a lot of juice, more than enough for a fairly large row house, ofcourse without the Fridge, ACs etc.
2.2 KVA would provide a lot of juice, more than enough for a fairly large row house, ofcourse without the Fridge, ACs etc.
Well you can get a APC 2200UXI smart UPS.But if you happen to have single wiring for both heating and wiring they you would probably need to get a inverter ,if you want a UPS then a 3000va as it can take a load of even a geyser.blr_p said:
@arun687
While inverter do have a UPS mode,what it basically does is that it goes to back up mode if high or low voltage occurs.Where as a UPS will actively trim or boost the current,the apc smart ups for eg boosts the voltage from as low as 158v to 200v+ and trim the voltage from 280v+ to around 220v to 240v .Only beyond that range does it go to back up mode where it gives a steady user set voltage of 220v,230v or 240v.
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At the moment i'm trying to decide on sine wave or square wave. online or offline.adder said:
The guy doing the installs told me square wave was fine but i'm a bit concerned over attaching things like TVs or hi-fi or fridge to a square wave UPS. What do ppl think ?
Equipment thats used to a sine input might not do so well with a square wave.
Well using a square wave is like a slow poision to your devices,especially the inductive load ones like fans,compressor,power supplies etc.blr_p said:
Online UPS are good,modems won't restart,no lag in switch over.But they have lot more things to go wrong and service will be expensive.
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Right, sine wave it is. Fridge & fans will be running on this. And you can connect anything to a sine.adder said:
Is there such a thing as an offline sine UPS or does sine necessarily have to be online ?adder said:
Online will exhaust batteries faster as its constantly in use compared to offline.
Is APC the only game in town or are there others worth considering too ?
I prefer a USB connection option to monitor status from the PC as it saves me running over to the UPS to check status out.
Well there are three types in UPS offline,line interactive and On-line.blr_p said:
The inverters usually are offline while the more expensive ones are on-line.
On-line UPS won't exhaust the battery faster like in back up time,but they will reduce the life of the batteries but only by a very small margin but still should last quite long.
There are other companies but in bangalore the HQ of APC the after sales support is unmatched.
If you want USB monitoring then you will have to go with a UPS.
The problem with most UPS is that all are line-interactive.Meaning it uses the transformer to step up or step down the voltage and at no point should one exceed the max load capability of the UPS.
So for eg i have a APC 1000UXI smart UPS its rated capacity is 800watt ,so at any point of time even during power i cannot exceed 800watt load.
Where as a offline UPS or inverter will only kick in when there is no power.So a APC 1000va inverter rated at 660watt can run a load of 3000watt (exact rating depends on the fuse) during main,so when its running on main the relay by passes the inverter circuit but when the power goes, when its in back up mode one can only run a load of upto 660watt(all load capacity stated by APC is for a resistive load).
So if you want a UPS with USB then you will have to buy a 2200UXI or 3000UXI.
I use a manual change over switch which is just like a MCB in size and appearance.I use this if i wanted to connect a vaccum cleaner or a cloth iron so that it can run off from main.In normal time the entire lighting circuit and selected plug points get stabilized power.
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ok, i was told to expect the batteries to last two years vs four for tubular ones. But those have to be refilled with distilled water every quarter. They offer it free for the first two years and then want Rs.1350 annual from then onwards. They guy kept pushing the tubular ones so i guess he has his eye on the maintenance contract more than my interests.adder said:
Yepadder said:
The guy will be coming over in the folowing days with a meter to measure load, so i figure if i give myself a margin say 20% over the actual measure then it should be ok. Not got any powerful rigs yet so might have to up that to 30-40%.adder said:
Yeah, thats the good thing about them, but the square waves are a killer. I'd like to have tv, fans (power only goes off in the heat) or pc's hooked up and not have to worry about when the power goes or whether i might be potentially damaging the power stage of these units.adder said:
This is a good compromise but i don't know if i will have this option, there are three fuses in the distribution box, one for the geysers, the other for the lights and the last for the power sockets in the house. Not sure if your idea will work in this situationadder said:
See i have tubular battery from exide called EL series comes with 4 years replacement warranty.During the last summer i had to refill it with distill water every 3 to 4months ,due to the high room temperature distill water evaporates faster.Last summer we had high number of power cuts. But from july till today the water level remains pretty much the same for 2 reasons lower temperature and power cuts have been virtually eliminated atleast in my area,if there is a power cut it only happens for a few min.blr_p said:
I fill it with distill water myself,get good quality one from say a shell gas station,just pour enough distill water that it covers the LEAD plate.You don't need to pay for those maintenance contracts.
Well the fridge for eg for a brief second is going to consume a lot more then its normal operating consumption.Same goes to a fan or a motor. So yes keeping a higher margin is recommended.blr_p said:
Its better to get the sinewave.If the heater/geyser circuit is isolated then yes you probably won't need a high power ups.But if you mean you will keep the heater off and then run on the same circuit as the ones in back up then its not a good idea,it will trip the UPS.blr_p said:
Well in the distribution box you will need to connect the UPS output to the wires going to the lights and power socket and either put a change over MCB or make sure the main wires both phase and neutral no longer are connected to the lighting and power sockets ,connect only the output phase and neutral of the UPS to the lighting and power sockets .blr_p said:This is a good compromise but i don't know if i will have this option, there are three fuses in the distribution box, one for the geysers, the other for the lights and the last for the power sockets in the house. Not sure if your idea will work in this situation
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I think i will opt for sealed batteries. Too easy to forget about refilling and then there could be a nasty accident.adder said:
The guy was trying to manually estimate the requirement based on just counting the appliances to be supported but I insisted he come over with some proper equipment to measure loads, startup loads, continuous load and maximum load (everything switched on) as it stands currently. Then work out what KVA to go for.adder said:
You're right that inductive loads will start up with a higher load then after they get started.
The other party who i was going to buy the UPS with ended up with a su-kam, 3.5KVA, sinewave, fusion series with 4x100AH batteries for just under Rs.50K.adder said:
I still prefer the APC as it will have a USB connection to the PC.
Will have to take a call on this once the load figures are in and see whether to support the fridge or not.adder said:
Sealed batteries are a bad choice they have poor life .Can't be used for cyclic use and can't be discharged deep.Battery manufacturers own data tells us that a sealed battery can loose its capacity to even half by just a few deep discharges.Thats the reason you only get a 6 months to 1 year warranty.blr_p said:
Well if you do leave them without re filling ,there won't be any nasty accidents,but your battery will loose its life and charge.These batteries are vented, so no chance of explosion unless there is some short circuit.
Many batteries come with level indicator http://www.techenclave.com/consumer-electronics/which-inverter-battery-114862-2.html#post866034 so even a lay man can understand them.
You can check them yourself with a clamp meter or multimeterblr_p said:
Also i hope you have a lcd or led-lcd,since a CRT can make a UPS trip during a cold start even if its a 21" .
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The people who got the su-kam got the invasafe 400 @100AH ones. Those are sealed, what do you make of them ?adder said:
Will these tubular ones work with the APC 2000UXI ?adder said:
Nope no LCD, the TV is an old CRT. I mostly have laptops to work with and one extra CRT for a monitor, but since i use remote desktop the CRT monitor is mostly off. The TV however is used frequently.adder said:
All will be more clear once the load measurements are completed.
Well i wouldn't recommend that.Its just a bigger sealed batteryblr_p said:
Yes tubular batteries work well.blr_p said:
Well a 32" lcd can consume about 50 to 65 watt under ideal settings which is still less then a 20" crt.blr_p said:
Also what bulbs do you use if its a incandescent ,then you will need to in some power full batteries.
Only after the load measurement can you decide on the battery capacity.
The APC SUA2200UXI needs 4 batteries since it runs on 48v DC.
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Going through the exide battery docs from hereadder said:
The tubular can withstand 1500 cycles at 80% (Depth of Discharge) vs 400-450 cycles at 80% for SMF. It is also claimed that recovery from a deep discharge is much faster for tubular vs SMF.
That is a significant advantage in favour of tubulars.
I was going to place these batteries in a closet, is there any problem with fumes or gasses vented from tubular batteries ? Is there a requirement that there be adequate ventilation if one uses them.
You might find this surprising given my previous stance on the subject but we have more CFLs in the house than incandesecent. Maybe i should susbsititute a few incandescents for the load test to be on the safe side.adder said:
Well you need to keep the batteries in a vented place ( no questions asked).Yes the fumes vented from batteries hydrogen if they accumulate then they can cause fire .
I use a old subwoofer casing to place the batteries which btw was self made.You get many types of battery enclosures made of plastic and steel.
I use a old subwoofer casing to place the batteries which btw was self made.You get many types of battery enclosures made of plastic and steel.
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adder said:
Is this enclosure situated inside your house or outdoors ?
SMF better than lead acid battery
That blog post seems to push SMF over the usual tubular because of lead fumes ?
Lead fumes ? all i thought was vented was just oxygen & hydrogen.
Notice how it just asserts that lead fumes are emitted by default from any (wet) lead acid battery, no research is linked to, its just stated there like it was a fact. I can find no info on gassing volume in the exide el specs at all.
It would appear if one were to go with tubular batteries then the best place for them to be stored is outdoors
Under the stairs where i planned to store them is completely enclosed off and there is no ventilation there at all, unless i drill small holes in the wood sheet enclosure. But this thing about lead fumes is making me reconsider getting tubulars !!
Well the enclosure is in my living room right next to the PC.
Well lead fumes i highly doubt,how can lead fumes come out.The only thing vented is o2 and h2 .That blog is basically pushing for SMF battery.They make more profits in selling SMF.
Just drill some holes.or get a enclosure a steel one costs about 1.5k such as is the one in the link http://images03.olx.in/ui/6/78/51/1...t-price-CALL-09966403413-India-1274294940.png
Well lead fumes i highly doubt,how can lead fumes come out.The only thing vented is o2 and h2 .That blog is basically pushing for SMF battery.They make more profits in selling SMF.
Just drill some holes.or get a enclosure a steel one costs about 1.5k such as is the one in the link http://images03.olx.in/ui/6/78/51/1...t-price-CALL-09966403413-India-1274294940.png
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I tried to figure out how to get lead 'fumes' out of the battery and came out blank !adder said:
Melting point of lead - 327 C
Boiling point of lead - 1749 C
How hot does it get inside a battery ? Not more than 100 C, maybe not enough half that.
The chemistry inside the battery (discharged to charged) goes like this
anode (oxidation)
cathode (reduction)
- Lead dioxide (PbO2) (black in colour) has a melting point of 290 C, its insoluble in water.
- Lead Sulphate (PbSO4) (white in colour) has a melting point of 1170 C and is often seen in the plates/electrodes of car batteries, as it is formed when the battery is discharged (when the battery is recharged, then the lead sulfate is transformed back to metallic lead and sulfuric acid on the negative terminal or lead dioxide and sulfuric acid on the positive terminal)
- Sulphuric acid has a boiling point of 337 C
I'm finding it very difficult to get any of the lead or its salts to even melt under normal operating conditions in the battery let alone get turned into 'fumes'. Same with the battery acid.
So ways to get lead poisoning is if you open the battery up and
- handle the anode or cathode and then eat something without washing your hands
- try to melt the anode over a flame and deeply inhale
- ingest the batery acid
You'd have to be in the lead battery recycling business to be exposed to risk.
There is one possiblity here but i don't know how feasible it is. If the lead salts were in a fine powder and got ejected with the other gases hydrogen & oxygen.
See any white residue (lead sulphate) around the vents or the battery terminal at all ?
This looks like a nifty enclosure, no need to store the batteries under the stairs can just put them in this case and run a wire out out to the case.adder said:
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