Looking for a home UPS that is smart

[rdst_1]

It would not be good if the regalia packs up a few months after the 5 yr warranty is over. That's the only risk i can see.

That's all I have been trying to say all along. But since you clarified that you will only be using the batteries for backup, I guess the convenience of Li-ion will come in handy and since your usage will be very less, even mediocre quality stuff will last much longer than 5 years.
I don't have this luxury of paying much higher price because I intend to use these batteries in a solar setup next year. Already my break-even for solar setup is much longer than others because of the low tariffs we have here in Himachal. If I wasn't facing issues of low-voltage and unclean power, I would never have even thought of needing to go for solar power. Add to that the convenience of 80% subsidy I will be getting on the solar panels due to an agricultural scheme, it makes it much easier for me to go for a solar setup and hence I will be inclined to use my batteries on a daily basis because it will be an off-grid setup. With that much cycling of batteries, it makes me the perfect candidate to go for Lithium over LA, but the prices just don't work right now for me.

 

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If you install a inverter even if it does nothing other then just keeping the batteries charged up, you are looking at around 50watts to 90w power draw depending on how big the inverter is, I my case its 80wto 90w x 24hrs. So that alone contributes to Rs550 per month in power bill. Since the 2 years I installed my inverter the power prices in bangalore as increased by Rs1 unit and it will keep on increasing. As will our power requirements, I keep adding stuff like Iot, more cameras, smart MCBs and what not, I added a dishwasher and plan to get a cloths dryer too.

Now if I had to start all over again in my inverter buy, I would have gone with a 8kw to 10kw unit, since I am pretty sure I will add a electric scooter within the next year. So I expect to pay around 5k a month on average in power bills next year, this year its mostly around 3.8k a month. At this rate as the panels get cheaper and electricity and demand for it increases. (once EV is in numbers we will be facing power shortage, since every one will increase their power consumption by 1kw to 3kw every hr and those with three phase connections up by atleast 6kw for charging 4 wheelers. So imagine the load on the grid, worse still everyone will be charging them at the same time.

So to make up with fall in fuel tax revenue governments both state and central will start increasing the slab prices. So the payback from solar is going to be fast.

 

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It will help if I treat them well and carry out necessary fluid top-ups whenever needed.

To get a warranty replacement how to prove to them you did those top ups

How to make the case that the fault lies with them and not with you.

If I wasn't facing issues of low-voltage and unclean power, I would never have even thought of needing to go for solar power. Add to that the convenience of 80% subsidy I will be getting on the solar panels due to an agricultural scheme, it makes it much easier for me to go for a solar setup and hence I will be inclined to use my batteries on a daily basis because it will be an off-grid setup. With that much cycling of batteries, it makes me the perfect candidate to go for Lithium over LA, but the prices just don't work right now for me.

With that kind of activity on those batteries i would keep logs. The terms are tighter for batteries with warranties of 5 years than 3 I feel.

You think adder got 8 years from that EL battery easy ? I think it took attention.

You will also have to figure out a way to do battery balancing every few months. The inverter does not do it as well even if it says it can do it.

since your usage will be very less, even mediocre quality stuff will last much longer than 5 years.

That is the bet i have to make. I can't afford double the price for ten year warranty.

I think it will take at least five years more more for ten years warranty to come for the price of that regalia is today.

Just see the prices abroad where they have lower import tariffs we have.

The powerwall 2 is three times more for 3 times more capacity. And that does not cover installation.

 

[bhp91]

Hello guys, been following this thread for sometime and I am looking for some expert advice for my home UPS system.
Currently I have 2x 12V 150ah lead acid batteries paired with a 1450VA inverter. The batteries have degraded and barely give 30 min of backup with light load so it's time to replace them. I wanted to move to lithium based batteries but there are very limited options and after reading this thread, I am not sure if it is worth the effort.
Does anyone have experience with gel batteries? I am planning to get two of these 150ah gel batteries so I don't have to bother with any maintenance. Apparently they also have low idle discharge rate so I guess they will save on the electricity which is wasted on keeping normal lead acid batteries charged?

I am also planning to add solar panels in the near future but not sure how it will integrate with the current system. I read that a retrofit solar charge controller is required. Not really sure how all of this works so I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable can shed some light.

 

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Whether you can use gel batteries depends on your ambient temperature. If the temperature is high thirties or more its better to stick with water filled batteries.

Otherwise life of the battery will be reduced. The warranty is 36 months with the rest pro rated. Wonder what the cycle count is for these under ideal conditions. This means 27 degrees.

 

[bhp91]

Well, the temperature where I live exceeds the 35 degree mark only for a few peak summer days and on top of that, I have the batteries indoors so I don't think that would be a problem.
Will these be ok to use with solar panels in future? I don't want to buy new battery A now only to realize that I should have gone with battery B for use with solar setup. I plan to install anywhere between 3kw - 5kw worth of panels depending on the usable rooftop space. Will I need to replace the inverter in future too?

 

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Why don't you consider solar batteries then. These are C10 and come with 5 year warranties. There are gel based ones by Exide called Solatron but they will have less cycles than the water based batteries

 

[bhp91]

These are C10 and come with 5 year warranties.

Any recommendations? I can't seem to find 150ah version of luminous solar battery with 5 year warranty on their website.

There are gel based ones by Exide called Solatron

Again, can't seem to find anything about them even on Exide's website. What's up with the extremely limited about of options available when it comes to gel batteries? Are these not as profitable for the manufacturers to make or just not suitable to use with home inverters?

 

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Any recommendations? I can't seem to find 150ah version of luminous solar battery with 5 year warranty on their website.

Recommend is go with Exide over Luminous. They charge more but you get what you pay for.

You wanted a gel battery that can handle solar ? Did you see the solatron catalog i linked in my previous post.

Again, can't seem to find anything about them even on Exide's website. What's up with the extremely limited about of options available when it comes to gel batteries? Are these not as profitable for the manufacturers to make or just not suitable to use with home inverters?

Price is high. For a 150Ah without exchange this seller wants 24k and 27k for 200AH.

You need to clarify the terms before you buy them. The catalog says *Conditions Apply without specifying them in the catalog.

What are these 'Conditions' ? it has a bearing on whether they will honour the warranty.

 

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I wouldn't touch Gel batteries unless they offer full 5 years full replacement warranty, for solar the gel batteries cannot take a high charge rate. With a maintenance batteries at best you need to fill up the distill water, with gel any wrong charging/discharging parameters can severely shorten the battery life, even if its new.

Exide own data says that gel batteries should not be discharged below 50%. While exide solatron is not mentioned in that list, it does weigh as much as a 5 year warranty c10 exide tall tubular solar battery, it weighs more then any lumninous battery with 5 year warranty. So it should last long, if you don't overcharge or discharge or operate in high temp environment. But they do cost a lot more about 10k more then a 5 year warranty c10 exide solar battery

So not sure whats the conditions apply for the 5 year warranty.

 

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I wouldn't touch Gel batteries unless they offer full 5 years full replacement warranty, for solar the gel batteries cannot take a high charge rate.

That 5 year warranty is where the 'conditions' apply

Exide own data says that gel batteries should not be discharged below 50%. While exide solatron is not mentioned in that list, it does weigh as much as a 5 year warranty c10 exide tall tubular solar battery, it weighs more then any lumninous battery with 5 year warranty. So it should last long, if you don't overcharge or discharge or operate in high temp environment.

that graph is on the back of the catalog so it can handle DOD less than 50%. Quite amazing to expect 1,000 cycles at 80% DOD

No info on charging rate is mentioned other than the usual. No warning about high charge rate.

 

[bhp91]

I wouldn't touch Gel batteries unless they offer full 5 years full replacement warranty, for solar the gel batteries cannot take a high charge rate. With a maintenance batteries at best you need to fill up the distill water, with gel any wrong charging/discharging parameters can severely shorten the battery life, even if its new.

Exide own data says that gel batteries should not be discharged below 50%. While exide solatron is not mentioned in that list, it does weigh as much as a 5 year warranty c10 exide tall tubular solar battery, it weighs more then any lumninous battery with 5 year warranty. So it should last long, if you don't overcharge or discharge or operate in high temp environment. But they do cost a lot more about 10k more then a 5 year warranty c10 exide solar battery

So not sure whats the conditions apply for the 5 year warranty.

That 5 year warranty is where the 'conditions' apply


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that graph is on the back of the catalog so it can handle DOD less than 50%. Quite amazing to expect 1,000 cycles at 80% DOD

No info on charging rate is mentioned other than the usual. No warning about high charge rate.

Thanks guys. I'll check warranty details locally and decide if it is worth the extra cash else go with a normal solar battery with 5 year warranty.
Also, luminous claims that you only need to top up distilled water once in 8-10 months on their c10 solar battery which comes with 5 year warranty. How true is this?

One more query I had is do I need to change the current normal inverter to solar inverter when I add the panels or is it possible to use a retrofit thingy?
Finally, incase I need to buy a solar inverter, then what brand would you recommend?

 

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Thanks guys. I'll check warranty details locally and decide if it is worth the extra cash else go with a normal solar battery with 5 year warranty.
Also, luminous claims that you only need to top up distilled water once in 8-10 months on their c10 solar battery which comes with 5 year warranty. How true is this?

One more query I had is do I need to change the current normal inverter to solar inverter when I add the panels or is it possible to use a retrofit thingy?
Finally, incase I need to buy a solar inverter, then what brand would you recommend?

Yes, solar batteries need only topping after that period. In my case even after 10months the water is at half mark or more. When it does go to the lowest mark it still well above the lead plates. So it should need topping only after 12months in my case with bangalore climate. FYI temperature near battery is 26c in winter to 38c in summer because my inverter keeps the battery area warm.

If your existing inverter is serving you fine you can retrofit by buying a MPPT charge controller. It basically a DC to DC converter. It takes the solar panels voltage typically 3 panels in series and depending on the model upto 4 strings in parallel.

You get 500w all the way to 2kw to 3kw mppt charge controller. This will basically charge the battery while your inverter is disconnected from mains input. You can add a timer switch which turns back the inverter On when sun sets. Or use a aftermarket light detector relay circuit which turns on or off the relay depending on the sunlight.

But mppt charge controllers will still be cycling your batteries constantly. Since it attains float voltage when fully charged and as your inverter draws power from battery it again goes back to bulk charging and rinse and repeat all day long.

Where as a solar inverter would directly power the loads via solar and will use battery only if solar is insufficient or load is more then solar capacity.

 

[bhp91]

Yes, solar batteries need only topping after that period. In my case even after 10months the water is at half mark or more. When it does go to the lowest mark it still well above the lead plates. So it should need topping only after 12months in my case with bangalore climate. FYI temperature near battery is 26c in winter to 38c in summer because my inverter keeps the battery area warm.

If your existing inverter is serving you fine you can retrofit by buying a MPPT charge controller. It basically a DC to DC converter. It takes the solar panels voltage typically 3 panels in series and depending on the model upto 4 strings in parallel.

You get 500w all the way to 2kw to 3kw mppt charge controller. This will basically charge the battery while your inverter is disconnected from mains input. You can add a timer switch which turns back the inverter On when sun sets. Or use a aftermarket light detector relay circuit which turns on or off the relay depending on the sunlight.

But mppt charge controllers will still be cycling your batteries constantly. Since it attains float voltage when fully charged and as your inverter draws power from battery it again goes back to bulk charging and rinse and repeat all day long.

Where as a solar inverter would directly power the loads via solar and will use battery only if solar is insufficient or load is more then solar capacity.

Thanks again. Looks like I'll be buying a new solar inverter. Any recommendations when it comes to brands? I'll be installing 3kw worth of panels initially but would like to add a few if needed in future. How does the math work for panels installed <-> battery capacity or does it not matter?

 

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Thanks again. Looks like I'll be buying a new solar inverter. Any recommendations when it comes to brands? I'll be installing 3kw worth of panels initially but would like to add a few if needed in future. How does the math work for panels installed <-> battery capacity or does it not matter?

What is your expectation from a solar setup ? Why are you thinking of going in for it.

My thoughts on the idea are here

 

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N

Thanks again. Looks like I'll be buying a new solar inverter. Any recommendations when it comes to brands? I'll be installing 3kw worth of panels initially but would like to add a few if needed in future. How does the math work for panels installed <-> battery capacity or does it not matter?

The battery needs to provide the required load and typically a 3kw inverter needs anywhere between 2 to 4 batteries in series.

The smallest tall tubular solar battery is 100ah so if its a 4 battery system I would get those.
If its a 2 battery system I would get 200ah batteries.

Mine is a 4 battery 5kw inverter and I got 150ah batteries. Basically you need to decide battery AH capacity based on the load and how much you are willing to discharge the battery daily.

As far as brands. The market is filled with chinese inverters rebadges, so if there is a issue I doubt they will repair it, mostly they will ask to replace the entire board and that will cost about half as much as a new inverter.

Local brands like luminous do make inverter in india but they either use more batteries in series or are expensive.

The one I have is a flin its a rebadge of voltronics inverters Taiwan they have factories in china. One of the more popular chinese/Taiwan brands.

If you have the budget there is hybrid inverter brands Deye which cost little over a lakh for some 5kw plus models. In india a trader has imported it and sells by the name celltronics.

 

[bhp91]

What is your expectation from a solar setup ? Why are you thinking of going in for it.

My thoughts on the idea are here

Well the electricity rates in maharashtra aren't exactly cheap. MSEDCL total charges for 300+units/month slab are about 12rs/unit (!) and it does not look like the rates are going to come down in the future. Similarly, my energy consumption is only going up. Also brought a electric scooter a month ago. Other than that, I don't want to be 100% reliant on grid. There are occasional longer duration power cuts due to unforeseen circumstances and knowing how important energy is, I want to have some sort of backup source for energy.

N

The battery needs to provide the required load and typically a 3kw inverter needs anywhere between 2 to 4 batteries in series.

The smallest tall tubular solar battery is 100ah so if its a 4 battery system I would get those.
If its a 2 battery system I would get 200ah batteries.

Mine is a 4 battery 5kw inverter and I got 150ah batteries. Basically you need to decide battery AH capacity based on the load and how much you are willing to discharge the battery daily.

As far as brands. The market is filled with chinese inverters rebadges, so if there is a issue I doubt they will repair it, mostly they will ask to replace the entire board and that will cost about half as much as a new inverter.

Local brands like luminous do make inverter in india but they either use more batteries in series or are expensive.

The one I have is a flin its a rebadge of voltronics inverters Taiwan they have factories in china. One of the more popular chinese/Taiwan brands.

If you have the budget there is hybrid inverter brands Deye which cost little over a lakh for some 5kw plus models. In india a trader has imported it and sells by the name celltronics.

Had a look at flin website. A 4 kw 48v inverter is about 73k. Add 50k for 4x 120ah battries. The total cost is close to something like a regalia f3200 from luminous with a 4.8 kwh Li-ion battery, which they say is equivalent to 2x 220ah lead acid batteries. Can't find any info about regalia on maximum solar array input power that it can accept. Does it even support grid export? Now sure what to do. If the "upto 10 years battery life" on their website is true then it seems to make sense.

 

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Well the electricity rates in maharashtra aren't exactly cheap. MSEDCL total charges for 300+units/month slab are about 12rs/unit (!) and it does not look like the rates are going to come down in the future. Similarly, my energy consumption is only going up. Also brought a electric scooter a month ago. Other than that, I don't want to be 100% reliant on grid. There are occasional longer duration power cuts due to unforeseen circumstances and knowing how important energy is, I want to have some sort of backup source for energy.

Ok, so how do you expect it to work for you. Think scenarios.

How will you use it when the sun is up. Read my earlier linked post again so you understand what the limitations are.

Had a look at flin website. A 4 kw 48v inverter is about 73k. Add 50k for 4x 120ah battries. The total cost is close to something like a regalia f3200 from luminous with a 4.8 kwh Li-ion battery, which they say is equivalent to 2x 220ah lead acid batteries. Can't find any info about regalia on maximum solar array input power that it can accept. Does it even support grid export?

1st gen had a solar hookup but it was not very good.
2nd gen has no solar hookup. And no grid export.

If you want to do net metering you have to understand what kinds of inverters your Discom will accept. And what is the compensation rate.

Now sure what to do. If the "upto 10 years battery life" on their website is true then it seems to make sense.

The problem is that word 'upto'. The warranty is just 5 years.

We don't know how many cycles it can handle.

 

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This company would be interesting if they actually had batteries in stock.

https://www.volfdieccaa.com/products?category=lifepo4-12v-60ah-battery