Proxmox Thread - Home Lab / Virtualization

[variablevector]

yeah but then you need to disable transcoding which makes the point moot, and tbh out of all the options you listed, only Shield is capable, rest all are crap

Dolby_Vision_stuff - Google Drive check this out for a proper breakdown

Ah, right. Dolby vision can't be transcoded. I suppose HDR with dynamic tone-mapping is good enough for me. I am not much of an AV purist and use a midrange TV.

Transcoding still comes in quite useful because realistically a lot of your server's clients i.e friends and family will be on phones/ipads/desktops etc. Especially when you're trying to access your content outside of your home network and get throttled by your upload speed.

 

[altair21]

Why ? Quicksync transcodes work in Plex.

nope thats either a HDR fallback which is tonemapped to SDR if display doesnt support HDR or its a fallback for profile 7/5 (see the sheet I linked above) and it shows its limitations once you get into multiple streams (Poor 4K HDR Transcode Performance with Intel QSV : r/PleX (reddit.com) , Dolby is a proprietary format and frankly a pain in the ass. there's literally no support on windows and you need proper hardware to support DV and even then you cant have proper support because currently there's no hardware which supports profile 7's dual layers without some other annoying drawback ( see the sheet I linked under the profile 7 column ) because Dolby are ****heads and wont give out licenses to profile 7 so most hardware/media players are just kind of guessing how to play it which comes with its own issues but unless you are like me, an idiot who pixel peeps every frame instead of actually watching shit, it wont matter to you, 99% of the users dont have access to 4k remuxes and normal 4k movies can be easily handled by Quicksync

Tl: Dr you are kinda right but not at the same time.

 

[superczar]

https://blog.ktz.me/the-best-media-server-cpu-in-the-world/

nice article for the Plex guys - Intel Quicksync wins hands down in transcoding

I dont get it - there is literally no end user device these days that cannot do a direct playback of even very large/ high bit rate media files.
Why bother/ burn power for transcoding?

yeah but then you need to disable transcoding which makes the point moot, and tbh out of all the options you listed, only Shield is capable, rest all are crap

There are plenty of options for local DV+atmos playback on TVs incl ATV and firestick

 

[variablevector]

I dont get it - there is literally no end user device these days that cannot do a direct playback of even very large/ high bit rate media files.
Why bother/ burn power for transcoding?

It's arguably more about codecs than bitrate. Try playing an HEVC video in your browser. Even in 2024, browser support for H265 is atrocious. Chrome technically supports but I haven't been able to get any of my files playing smoothly. Then try downloading a torrent of a new movie, only to find out that it is AV1 and your recently purchased Smart TV or stick or whatever, for some reason, still doesn't have hardware support for it. Bitrate becomes a factor when you're trying to stream outside of your home network, or when you have multiple streams over WiFi etc.

Also, the whole point of hw accelerated transcoding with an iGPU is that you're not burning a lot of power.

 

[superczar]

It's arguably more about codecs than bitrate. Try playing an HEVC video in your browser. Even in 2024, browser support for H265 is atrocious. Chrome technically supports but I haven't been able to get any of my files playing smoothly. Then try downloading a torrent of a new movie, only to find out that it is AV1 and your recently purchased Smart TV or stick or whatever, for some reason, still doesn't have hardware support for it. Bitrate becomes a factor when you're trying to stream outside of your home network, or when you have multiple streams over WiFi etc.

Also, the whole point of hw accelerated transcoding with an iGPU is that you're not burning a lot of power.

Hevc hardware decoding is present on pretty much every PC/Phone/Tab/whatever from the last several years.
I havent really tried doing local playback on a browser but it stands to reason that if I have setup a plex server, i would have some or the other compatible app on my client devices. And its highly unlikely I (or you) would have a client device with a CPU/SoC without hevc main10 hw decoding

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I have used plex transcoding extensively in the past - And I am glad all current client (or even reasonably older) devices simply negate the need for it.

Personally i think its rather archaic / very 2000s ish to have a server transcode a stream for the user rather than letting the client handle it.

By the time AV1 becomes mainstream (and hevc starts becoming difficult to find ), there is every likelihood most , if not all my client devices would also have gone through an upgrade cycle and would support AV1 hw decoding.
Maybe there are some unique/edge scenarios where it may be of use - but for a typical home server setup? Not really

 

[vivek.krishnan]

I dont get it - there is literally no end user device these days that cannot do a direct playback of even very large/ high bit rate media files.
Why bother/ burn power for transcoding?

Transcoding is only done when needed, otherwise with my experience on Plex, it almost always direct plays

Hevc hardware decoding is present on pretty much every PC/Phone/Tab/whatever from the last several years.
I havent really tried doing local playback on a browser but it stands to reason that if I have setup a plex server, i would have some or the other compatible app on my client devices. And its highly unlikely I (or you) would have a client device with a CPU/SoC without hevc main10 hw decoding

True. Almost all devices have HEVC decoding

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that I have used plex transcoding extensively in the past - And I am glad all current client (or even reasonably older) devices simply negate the need for it.

For the most part yes.

Personally i think its rather archaic / very 2000s ish to have a server transcode a stream for the user rather than letting the client handle it.

I dont think its needed unless required. Only usecase is for streaming on the road.

By the time AV1 becomes mainstream (and hevc starts becoming difficult to find ), there is every likelihood most , if not all my client devices would also have gone through an upgrade cycle and would support AV1 hw decoding.
Maybe there are some unique/edge scenarios where it may be of use - but for a typical home server setup? Not really

Actually you need to look at this in 2 ways - AV1 is going to be in the years to come where HEVC was where AVC was

Currently most of the devices do not have AV1 encoding support and the few systems can decode AV1 are 11th gen and above. So we can transcode AV1 to HEVC for those devices we use which do not support AV1. Plus I would want to have the space savings when it comes, with plans to move to all flash storage for media.

I was planning to buy 14th gen NUC for AV1 encoding support, but the high prices are forcing me to change plans and downgrade to a 11th gen NUC. For me, power is a big factor

 

[altair21]

Transcoding is only done when needed, otherwise with my experience on Plex, it almost always direct plays

How do you deal with PGS subs? I tried both plex/jellyfin and they were unable to play pgs subs without transcoding, granted it was a 4k DV remux.

Actually you need to look at this in 2 ways - AV1 is going to be in the years to come where HEVC was where AVC was

Currently most of the devices do not have AV1 encoding support and the few systems can decode AV1 are 11th gen and above. So we can transcode AV1 to HEVC for those devices we use which do not support AV1. Plus I would want to have the space savings when it comes, with plans to move to all flash storage for media.

I was planning to buy 14th gen NUC for AV1 encoding support, but the high prices are forcing me to change plans and downgrade to a 11th gen NUC. For me, power is a big factor

if you mainly rely on torrents/usenet for your streaming needs, then HEVC isnt going anywhere, and av1 even now has spotty support at best, if you are playing a normal SDR file then it'll play just fine, but add in HDR/DV and it'll go wonky

 

[superczar]

How do you deal with PGS subs? I tried both plex/jellyfin and they were unable to play pgs subs without transcoding, granted it was a 4k DV remux.

Let me draw an analogy.
If my shoe size is 8, I would not buy size 6 or 10, would I?

There is nothing i gain with PGS over SRT-its not that my server cant transcode it but why would I pick a file of that kind in the first place.

if you are playing a normal SDR file then it'll play just fine, but add in HDR/DV and it'll go wonky

The problem you are talking about is a hardware constraint on your playback device. (e.g. DV will play fine on a ATV/ macbook but good luck with windows)
Now if I have a DV capable device, I will grab DV files.If i don't have a DV capable device (but have a decent HDR800 display), I will grab HDR
If I have neither, I will get SDR

What I will not do (regardless of having or not having a transcoding server) is to choose a DV file and then force tone mapping on it to play it in SDR.
That would be like buying a size 10 shoe and then padding foam in it to make it fit my foot

I avoided DV till about 2020- with time all my key consumption devices now support DV so I actively look for DV now

Actually you need to look at this in 2 ways - AV1 is going to be in the years to come where HEVC was where AVC was

Currently most of the devices do not have AV1 encoding support and the few systems can decode AV1 are 11th gen and above. So we can transcode AV1 to HEVC for those devices we use which do not support AV1. Plus I would want to have the space savings when it comes, with plans to move to all flash storage for media.

I was planning to buy 14th gen NUC for AV1 encoding support, but the high prices are forcing me to change plans and downgrade to a 11th gen NUC. For me, power is a big factor

yes to the first part.
I also remember similar conversations on this topic back in I dunno, 2014 regarding hevc vs h.264 .
and yes, not all my devices can handle AV1 HW decode todya barring few (which is how it was in 2014 with HEVC)

Now I could have either upgraded my server back then (for transcoding) or continue to use higher bit rate h.264 file for the same quality while my end user devices go through a natural progression cycle.
This natural process is in fact arguably a lot easier /faster now given the much faster Internet speeds and faster upgrade cycles .
Back then, I think I had a 4+4+2 TB HDD on my NAS - largely because a high quality 2 hour movie would take 24 hours to donwload
Today it takes 10 minutes
So i largely don't even bothering with long term storage of ahem media- my NAS storage is now down to 2+1TB of solid state

All things being equal, I would have preferred AV1 over h265 (or heic over jpeg)
With heic, i get a tangible benefit (photos are irreplaceable and need expensive online backup)
With AV1 , i don't see a tangible benefit as yet (as the lowered storage requires me to a) spend a lot upfront. b) burn power upfront) for longer term storage of something which is immediately replaceable)

 

[ibose]

Today it takes 10 minutes

You are discounting the time to search or locate. This may apply to recent or well known stuff. But some of us have more discerning tastes ... eg. oldies
Today it takes seconds from my NAS.

 

[superczar]

You are discounting the time to search or locate. This may apply to recent or well known stuff. But some of us have more discerning tastes ... eg. oldies
Today it takes seconds from my NAS.

In which case all I would say is that you must be incredibly good at finding rare combinations on the interwebs..
Like Oldies/classics in AV1 encoding

 

[ibose]

In which case all I would say is that you must be incredibly good at finding rare combinations on the interwebs..
Like Oldies/classics in AV1 encoding

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands .. lol. I was referring to your argument on downloading vs storing which has nothing to do with AV1.

 

[TEUser2K1]

VMware giving away Workstation Pro, Fusion Pro free for personal use

VMware Workstation Pro, Fusion Pro free for personal use

A nice gesture among the sh!tshow of Broadcom's acquisition

www.theregister.com

 

[superczar]

You seem to have a lot of time on your hands .. lol. I was referring to your argument on downloading vs storing which has nothing to do with AV1.

Availability of Free time not withstanding, it was not a standalone statement. And you missed the context around the same
I obviously understand the need to store / safe-keep some media files. I have my own repository for that.

May be worthwhile to read the preceding posts - but i presume you were too busy to do that

 

[vivek.krishnan]

How do you deal with PGS subs? I tried both plex/jellyfin and they were unable to play pgs subs without transcoding, granted it was a 4k DV remux.

I stick to SRT

if you mainly rely on torrents/usenet for your streaming needs, then HEVC isnt going anywhere, and av1 even now has spotty support at best, if you are playing a normal SDR file then it'll play just fine, but add in HDR/DV and it'll go wonky

True

 

[ibose]

it was not a standalone statement. And you missed the context around the same

I did not miss it. There wasn't any, on what you said and how you said it. Good that now you are clarifying.

May be worthwhile to read the preceding posts - but i presume you were too busy to do that

 

[altair21]

There is nothing i gain with PGS over SRT-its not that my server cant transcode it but why would I pick a file of that kind in the first place.

for normal users yeah, but if you grab any remux from a private tracker, they almost exclusively use PGS subs so its a pretty annoying playback issue.

The problem you are talking about is a hardware constraint on your playback device. (e.g. DV will play fine on a ATV/ macbook but good luck with windows)
Now if I have a DV capable device, I will grab DV files.If i don't have a DV capable device (but have a decent HDR800 display), I will grab HDR
If I have neither, I will get SDR

Nope, ATV/Mac do not support DV unless you count gimmicks like HDR400/600/800 as proper "HDR support", they only support profile 5 and cant even play a profile 7 even without the FEL layer, making them largely pointless, read my previous post for more details and sheet I linked for hardware compatibility reference but the Tl: DR is profile 5 is mainly used by streaming platforms like Netflix, and profile 7 is mainly used in UHD blurays.

btw you should definitely get SDR if your display only supports HDR800, if you are not using something like MadVR or any other kind of renderer, you wont get a good output, most default tonemapping algos built into players/hardware are crap unless you have a top-end TV/Monitor, for proper HDR, you need atleast a HDR1000 certification and proper dimming zones (not that bullshit edge lit dimming zone crap that OEMs push out),

What I will not do (regardless of having or not having a transcoding server) is to choose a DV file and then force tone mapping on it to play it in SDR.
That would be like buying a size 10 shoe and then padding foam in it to make it fit my foot

you cant tonemap DV anyways, Dolby shitheads havent really pushed out any DV encoding guide, so it's all guesses at the moment hence the issues, but what I would say is to get a HDR10 file and tonemap it using something like MadVR, it'll be way superior compared to normal SDR playback

I avoided DV till about 2020- with time all my key consumption devices now support DV so I actively look for DV now

if you are depending on Mac/ATV for your DV playback and your monitor only supports HDR800, then its just a placebo. in your words you are padding a size 10 shoe to fit your size 4 foot, get atleast a proper QLED display if not OLED with proper dimming zones to take advantage of DV/HDR.

Now I could have either upgraded my server back then (for transcoding) or continue to use higher bit rate h.264 file for the same quality while my end user devices go through a natural progression cycle.
This natural process is in fact arguably a lot easier /faster now given the much faster Internet speeds and faster upgrade cycles .
Back then, I think I had a 4+4+2 TB HDD on my NAS - largely because a high quality 2 hour movie would take 24 hours to donwload
Today it takes 10 minutes
So i largely don't even bothering with long term storage of ahem media- my NAS storage is now down to 2+1TB of solid state

yeah, thats fine for a normal user but I am really into archiving remuxes, Remuxes are the best way to view any movie (atleast the good ones) where the encoder has selected the best video tracks from different region BD releases, synced audio/subs, made sure to pick up the best audio tracks and added in support for backwards compatibility, added chapters etc etc, you literally cant find a better release legally than some of the remuxes available. for e.g this is for a top gun maverick remux

Source #1: UHD Blu-ray (ESiR) / (Video/Audio/Subs/Chapters)
Source #2: AMZN VOD (CONSORTiUM) / (HDR10+ Layer/Subs)

Straight forward and as simple as it gets Hybrid release. Addition of retail HDR10+ layer from VOD which was a perfect match for the UHD Blu-ray coming from the same service master. We personally liked the Dolby Vision layer on this title a bit more but both are an upgrade over the static HDR viewing. So just enjoy whatever your device supports for the enhanced HDR viewing experience.

The IMAX/Scope shots here of course have their respective dynamic metadata, same as the Dolby Vision on the disc. HDR10+ from VOD transferred to the UHD Blu-ray for a more complete release without encoding using professional tools. Both dynamic DV/10+ presentations fallback to HDR10.

Top Gun Maverick was originally mixed in immersive IMAX Sonics 12-Track (7.1.4) for digital IMAX showings and theatrical Atmos (Object based) for Dolby Cinema engagements.

Dolby Atmos and fallback Dolby Digital EX audio muxed in as-is from the UHD BD disc. Both these tracks have been slightly tamed compared to the theatrical mix by the studio. Most notably in dynamics and the upper low end-lower midrange having a bit less "balls" than the theatrical mixes but overall a solid transfer and home video adaptation. An upgrade either way over the hideously normalized and tamed audio on the VOD release(s). So you can finally enjoy this at home with a better idea of how it sounded in theaters.

As usual, Subs synced to match scene change/I-frame.

Numbered chapters synced to match scene change/I-frames.

 

[superczar]

Nope, ATV/Mac do not support DV unless you count gimmicks like HDR400/600/800 as proper "HDR support", they only support profile 5 and cant even play a profile 7 even without the FEL layer, making them largely pointless, read my previous post for more details and sheet I linked for hardware compatibility reference but the Tl: DR is profile 5 is mainly used by streaming platforms like Netflix, and profile 7 is mainly used in UHD blurays.

Now this is where we start getting into the classic audiophile discussion territory.
There are folks into audio who can spend hours trying to convince why even lossless encoding like ALAC doesn't compare with a raw audio stream.
As far as I am concerned, I find it difiicult to tell between even lossless and high bit rate compressed streams despite having audio equipment that can handle a much greater level of detail than the average consumer grade equipment.

Similarly on Blu Ray vs streaming (lets leave encodes and remuxes out for a bit), my personal take is that anything over 40mbps /hevc main10 /DV or HDR10+ gets visually indistinguishable from a physical disk.
Now coming to your point on profile 5 vs 7 (or even 10/20), why does it matter to me as an end user?
SDR-> HDR was a massive visual jump and HDR -> HDR10+/DV (regardless of profile) for me has been a small incremental jump

Chasing a higher profile on DV at least to me is pure specs chasing for an end consumer.

FWIW I find DV playback on ATV fantastic (and also a noticeable jump up from HDR) - and it manages this without any fuss/drama/tweaking for everyday usage wit the click of a button - Thats all I ask for now till something noticeably better comes along . The last such major improvements were DVD->1080p (huge) >4k SDR (nice but not as much as touted) -> 4K HDR (huge) -> 4K 10+/DV (small but noticeable)

yeah, thats fine for a normal user but I am really into archiving remuxes, Remuxes are the best way to view any movie (atleast the good ones) where the encoder has selected the best video tracks from different region BD releases, synced audio/subs, made sure to pick up the best audio tracks and added in support for backwards compatibility, added chapters etc etc, you literally cant find a better release legally than some of the remuxes available. for e.g this is for a top gun maverick remux

This is where your use case starts differing from a regular end user pursuing a convenient way to handle playback without compromising on quality .
You would fall under the category of a collector which is a legit hobby in its own right
The discussion on this thread, if i am not wrong is how transcoding is an important consideration for a home server in 2024 for a general user like I

if you are depending on Mac/ATV for your DV playback and your monitor only supports HDR800, then its just a placebo. in your words you are padding a size 10 shoe to fit your size 4 foot, get atleast a proper QLED display if not OLED with proper dimming zones to take advantage of DV/HDR.

Kinda like you, i like collecting equipment.
Audio first but of late video as well - and while my video setup is not at par with audio but it does include:

- LG G2 (Evo OLED, 1000 nits),
- 85 U7K (fairly bright mini led with high number of dimming zones..not sure what the peak HDR brightness is but it does get eye searingly bright, more so than the former)
- a couple of 1600 capable Macbooks (which i presonally find the best in terms of video capabilities)
- a 1000 ipad pro
- a Samsung s8+ oled (which honestly is quite sad, display-wise)
- a benq 3280 monitor (maybe its 400 or 600 - cant rememebr but it does act as a lower baseline for comparison)

I also enjoy doing AB tests on both audio and video So I would like to believe that my comments so far are based on real life usage and not based on second hand info collected from YT review or comments on the interwebs

 

[rsaeon]

Back when I collected media (15+ years ago), I had two libraries — 1080p brrips for sharing and bd50s for my personal pixel peeping pleasure.

On the fly transcoding wasn't a thing so if your device couldn't handle 1080p x264 then we weren't friends.

Then I got disenchanted with the consumerist nature of media and I haven't watched a movie since 2013.

 

[altair21]

Now this is where we start getting into the classic audiophile discussion territory.
There are folks into audio who can spend hours trying to convince why even lossless encoding like ALAC doesn't compare with a raw audio stream.
As far as I am concerned, I find it difiicult to tell between even lossless and high bit rate compressed streams despite having audio equipment that can handle a much greater level of detail than the average consumer grade equipment.

Similarly on Blu Ray vs streaming (lets leave encodes and remuxes out for a bit), my personal take is that anything over 40mbps /hevc main10 /DV or HDR10+ gets visually indistinguishable from a physical disk.

more like 15-17mbps(streaming) vs 70-80mbps (remuxes or as you said full disk), there is a lot of difference if you notice

Now coming to your point on profile 5 vs 7 (or even 10/20), why does it matter to me as an end user?
SDR-> HDR was a massive visual jump and HDR -> HDR10+/DV (regardless of profile) for me has been a small incremental jump

you havent used profile 7 ever and the setup you posted cant support it either, specially if you are streaming as streaming services (atleast in India) almost never give a full res stream, there's always some kind of transcoding/downsampling going on (cant comment on ATV, but their max bitrate is around 40mbps) but yeah if you cant notice the difference between between DV/HDR10 vs HDR then it wont matter to you, its just for picture accuracy

Chasing a higher profile on DV at least to me is pure specs chasing for an end consumer.

FWIW I find DV playback on ATV fantastic (and also a noticeable jump up from HDR) - and it manages this without any fuss/drama/tweaking for everyday usage wit the click of a button - Thats all I ask for now till something noticeably better comes along . The last such major improvements were DVD->1080p (huge) >4k SDR (nice but not as much as touted) -> 4K HDR (huge) -> 4K 10+/DV (small but noticeable)

try out remuxes if you havent before deciding, you are watching a really inferior product before deciding it aint worth it. Assuming you have the 3rd gen ATV 4k, it only supports profile 5 and that too with a lot of color accuracy issues again re: the sheet I linked

This is where your use case starts differing from a regular end user pursuing a convenient way to handle playback without compromising on quality .
You would fall under the category of a collector which is a legit hobby in its own right
The discussion on this thread, if i am not wrong is how transcoding is an important consideration for a home server in 2024 for a general user like I

I just added my 2cents in when you posted about not needing to archive anything

I also enjoy doing AB tests on both audio and video So I would like to believe that my comments so far are based on real life usage and not based on second hand info collected from YT review or comments on the interwebs

if you havent used any remuxes for your testing, I would recommend getting one and seeing the differences, there are a lot of them if you know where to spot, now would you notice them sitting 10 feet from your tv? most likely no, but its there.

Remuxes get way better specially once you have a proper atmos setup going, the sound itself is just *chef's kiss*, my current setup isnt even worthy of being called a setup, I'm gonna spring for a proper upgrade soon enough

PS. check out this https://slow.pics/s/xLgSTMc3 (use slider comparison and select atv on one side and something like ugoos or shield on the other), this is for highlighting issues with ATV's profile 5 color accuracy

and this is a general comparison https://slow.pics/s/R5IQTnTz (again use the slider comparison)

Back when I collected media (15+ years ago), I had two libraries — 1080p brrips for sharing and bd50s for my personal pixel peeping pleasure.

On the fly transcoding wasn't a thing so if your device couldn't handle 1080p x264 then we weren't friends.

Then I got disenchanted with the consumerist nature of media and I haven't watched a movie since 2013.

watch tv series remuxes

 

[superczar]

I wont go into a point by point response this time because

A) you are drawing a lot of assumptions about me which arent necessarily true (e.g. the original assumption on basing my observations with a display/displays incapable of handling proper HDR)

This time around you have assumed that I have tested only with ATV/ not tested remuxes / not tested physical disks
And also assumed (probably) usage of a non ATMOS setup
And also assumed I am comparing remuxes with 15mbps streams (when I had clearly stated 40)

On a side note, I may not have super discerning eyes but the color variation on the links you sent are so stark that even a non video enthusiast would notice that instantly during actual playback.
Which is why I mentioned earlier as well that rather than believing a post from a random unknown tester on the interwebs (e.g. the page you linked to) or Youtube, I would rather trust my own tests, equipment, configuration and eyes (or take inputs from someone i know).

There is no means for me to know if the setup tested by this unknown individual (from your links) were configured or tested correctly which i strongly believe is not the case here
(for instance the ATV frame in the general comparison is almost comically bad/blurry/low res - either intentionally or due to lack of attention to detail by the tester)

BTW FWIW the shield is not capable of handling profile 7 as intended - it processes only the base layer. In fact as things stand, even the cheap firestick 4K is arguably the better media player of the 2 than the now hopelessly outdated shield (and before you assume again, Yes, I have used a shield, )

B) We (and I am equally guilty) are digressing massively from the core thread topic - If you do want to pursue this discussion further, happy to continue on a separate thread