Audio Random DAC/Amp Thread!!

Thank you once again for responding to my query.

I am purely into stereo audio and have absolutely no surround sound gear in the house. It might be in the distant future for the same.

Right now, since I am concentrating on quality audio gear I realised that I had to upgrade 2 components, a soundcard and my music files, from internal to a dedicated one and from measly mp3 files to lossless formats respectively.

I saw the Xonar STX and it's mightly price meant I will have to save up a lot. Then I came across the likes of Fiio E17 etc the purpose of which I initially failed to understand. I think an external solution is the best for me as I would use it with my phone, iPod and my PC, rarely the laptop.

Thank you for clearing some air.

I will now retire from the discussion as my purchase has plenty of time left.

OT: I saw your name #[font=arial, sans-serif][/font][font=arial, sans-serif]esanthosh [/font]figure in the Head-Fi list - the comprehensive IEM review one. Never knew you were that famous
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You can of course use E17 with PC and Laptop.

But, are you implying using it as a DAC with iPod and iPhone? As an amplifier, yes! you can do so via the Aux input. But, you cannot use it as a DAC + Amp with iDevices as that require the blessings of the fruit company, which is not cheap. Pure i-20 is the cheapest way to get a Digital out of the iDevices. You can then feed to any external DAC (portable / desktop), but that will compromise heavily on portability. Other solutions like Fostex HP-P1 and Cyberlabs Algorthym Solo not only make the rig a "brick-rig" or brig for short, but you need a brick of Rs. 1000 notes to buy them as well.

On the format issue, I definitely prefer loss-less files more, but only because they can be converted to any lossy/original wave format just as easily (VBR / 320kbps / WAV). But other than that, I don't feel it makes a huge difference when listening with portable devices.
 
Ordered O2 from JDS Labs. Should be here by this weekend.

The STX hp out wasn't doing justice to the Yamahas.

Hope O2 performs miles better.
 
As usual I was excited when I bought my first headphone amp, E11, in the process I overlooked few thing and they look at me now badly! got it few months back less understanding about DAC and Amp, after purchasing I realized I should have got a DAC combo so I can plug it to my computer to get g8 sound this was a big miss, next not reading much about E11, after getting it and not happy about it I searched net to see what is good about these that people are happy about, these are the few things I found: cost factor! portability, upgrade over existing FiiO models, and then the most important one 'natural' sound & bass booster, I had few 'natural' senns I'm not happy about, so seeing this 'natural' brought me that 'revelation' what a mistake I did, should have bought something that improves SQ and add colors to the music, my bad! so that was my E11 experience
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planning to get some good hps, combining them hoping this investment is well worth it. But also I got to understand something else, these amps, charging it, fiddling with the bass settings, in future I told myself keep my music listening simple by eliminating these requirements, so life is simple but can't guarantee that I will keep this promise! because I already drooling about Asus Xonar! More than amp I feel DAC is g8 concept shouldn't have missed it.
 
You seem to have confused "neutral" and "natural" in 2-3 posts you've made today.

Sennheisers mostly seem colored at the lower price range. Which 'neutral' Senn do you have?
 
esanthosh said:
You seem to have confused "neutral" and "natural" in 2-3 posts you've made today.

Sennheisers mostly seem colored at the lower price range. Which 'neutral' Senn do you have?
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Layman alert!

According to me natural/neutral is flat sound which is true reproduction of sound for reference/monitoring purpose, and I don't know the difference between neutral and natural
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I thought they are same. and I have HD 280 pro & CX300, both in my opinion falls flat soundwise
 
Hate to take this thread off-topic, but here's something for you: http://www.inearmatters.net/2008/12/neutral-vs-natural-thought.html

I've never heard either of the two. But, I've read that CX300 sounds somewhat similar to EP630. If that is correct, then CX300 is far from neutral. If by, "flat sounding", you meant "unexciting", you may be hinting at something else totally. Someone else who has heard CX300 or HD280 is better qualified to comment on that.

Usually, flat frequency response is equated to a 'neutral' IEM. Most "neutral" IEMs turn out to be bass light, bright and are far from 'natural'. In essence, what we refer to as "neutral" is one range is not over-powering the other and craving for attention.

A 'natural sounding' IEM has to get timbre right at least of some or most instruments. That may need the ability to natural tone, weight & thickness of note, attack, decay... too many terms? In short, as far as possible resemble the realistic, live feel of the instrument. Those who play the instrument or have access to hearing it live often are best placed to judge that. It's not as simple as I've described, but you get the idea. Only a few do 'timbre' right and that too not for all instruments.

I don't think CX300 qualifies for either description.
 
^^^ yeah you are right, muddy unexciting should be the right terms, shouldn't have used audiophile vocabulary
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Wow thanks for the exact article as well

the reason I used those words is, these Senns don't alter the sound equalizer (spectrum?!) in any way and produce it as it is,but since they are so incompetent! the sound that comes out is terrible and in case of CX300 boomy bass unnecessarily for few songs and no bass for some! but it is not the 'tuning' that cause it but the incompetence!! by 'tuning' I meant equalizing the song by brands like klipsch, bose do, okey as I can see I couldn't get 2/100 marks in audiophile exam, I will stop here
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Hello.. I am quite a noob to the world of audio and had a couple of questions with regards to what I can do to improve my musical experience.

I currently have the Sony MDR XD-200 which I use with my desktop which has the Creative Sound Card SB Audigy Value 5.1 sound card installed. On the move I use the Creative EP 630 along with the Nokia Express music 5310 to listen to music and audio books.

I would like to look at picking up a headphone amplifier (or do I need a DAC?) which I can use along with both these listening devices so I can enjoy my music and movies. I have looked at the Fiio devices and they are in the price range for me but I am wondering which one would make the most difference and give the best bang for the buck.
 
I'm a bit confused here. I'm using my d2k with an E5 to fulfil their basic requirement of amplification as their sound is really low without an amp. As I've read everywhere that they are very easy to drive because of low impedance so do they really need an amp/dac to shine.

Earlier I was confused between E17 and Audinst MX1 but then I thought MX1 is neutral and doesn't add any color to the sound (in case of d2k not HD600/650) so is it appropriate to spend around 10k for an amp/dac.
 
nikodas2 said:
Hello.. I am quite a noob to the world of audio and had a couple of questions with regards to what I can do to improve my musical experience.

I currently have the Sony MDR XD-200 which I use with my desktop which has the Creative Sound Card SB Audigy Value 5.1 sound card installed. On the move I use the Creative EP 630 along with the Nokia Express music 5310 to listen to music and audio books.

I would like to look at picking up a headphone amplifier (or do I need a DAC?) which I can use along with both these listening devices so I can enjoy my music and movies. I have looked at the Fiio devices and they are in the price range for me but I am wondering which one would make the most difference and give the best bang for the buck.
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I don't think you'll find a single solution for both your needs (Sony &amp; Creative), because they're addressing different needs.

The Sony MDR XD-200 seems to have an input impedance of 70 ohms, which isn't really high.

http://reviews.cnet....ag=mncol;subnav

Unless you think you are getting a low volume on these headphones, you'll not see much benefit from an Amplifier. Basically, an amplifier's primary job is to make the signal strong, i.e. loud volume. Typically, an amplifier is a necessity when the headphone has high impedance, typically around 300 Ohms &amp; above.

To improve your audio quality, I think it'll be best to improve your sources before you think of an amplifier.

For your desktop usage, to start with, begin using lossless audio (FLAC/WAV) than lossy audio (MP3/AAC). This will most likely involve re-ripping your Audio CD's to FLAC to get good resolution.

Then think about getting a better DAC/Soundcard than your Creative Live. For an internal soundcard perspective, Asus Essense ST/STX would be best for music needs (2 channel audio). For an external DAC, Fiio E10 or Fiio E7 would be good bang for the buck.

Be warned, when you reach this stage, you'll probably feel the need to upgrade your headphones, and then start the cycle over.
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For the portable usage, again I would suggesting upgrade the source to higher quality, i.e. 256 Kbps or higher for MP3, or FLAC if your phone can handle FLACs. I use SymbianOggPlay which handles FLACs fine on my N82, however the default Music Player cannot handle FLACs.

The next step would be to upgrade the IEMs. I've heard the Creative EP-630's, and they are just horrible. They have a muddy bass, and the mids are practically missing.

I would recommend the Brainwavz M2/M3, however the prices have gone up recently. The SoundMagic PL-21 & PL-30 also should be your list. I do like the SoundMagic PL-50's a lot, but they are bass-shy and so might not be to your taste.

Finally, consider getting a dedicated player. Sansa Clip has its fans. I like the Sansa Fuze, but its out of production. To be honest, listening to quality audio on the move will not be possible, unless you are isloated from external sounds (In an AC car, for eg). Usually the noise from traffic, etc. will eclipse whatever good sound quality you've managed to squeeze out of your equipment. The only good factor about having a dedicated player is their battery life, which will last for days, while the phone usually needs to be recharged daily.
 
nikodas2 said:
Hello.. I am quite a noob to the world of audio and had a couple of questions with regards to what I can do to improve my musical experience.

I currently have the Sony MDR XD-200 which I use with my desktop which has the Creative Sound Card SB Audigy Value 5.1 sound card installed. On the move I use the Creative EP 630 along with the Nokia Express music 5310 to listen to music and audio books.

I would like to look at picking up a headphone amplifier (or do I need a DAC?) which I can use along with both these listening devices so I can enjoy my music and movies. I have looked at the Fiio devices and they are in the price range for me but I am wondering which one would make the most difference and give the best bang for the buck.
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Stay that way please. Everyone who comes for better audio quality leaves with their wallets drained and smiles missing - until they figure out music >> so-called-sound-quality.

That said, in the world of audio, go by this

IEM / Headphone >> Source files + Source >> amp >>>>>> cables

That's always a better upgrade path.

Are you thinking about getting a E17 to suit both setups? For movies and games, a better sound card might work better as Dac/Amps are purposed for music. EP630 won't improve with an amp, so no point buying a E17 unless you want to hit the bass boost switch every now and then.

An Amp is not about "loudness" either, it's about properly controlling the driver. Many sources have higher output impedance which screws up the intended FR of low impedance IEMs (Hifiman players, iPod Video) i.e., the bass might be rolled off, treble might become harsher. Considering that most IEMs generally have a lower impedance of 16-32 ohms, with some like Sony XBA-4 at a freakishly 8 ohm, this assumes slight importance. It is even more true for mobile phones / devices most of which have audio as the 'also ran' feature (except few like iPhone4 which has a lower OI, whereas Samsung Galaxy S2 is measured at 49 ohms). From what I understand, 'impedance' of an IEM is not a single value, most of the specs give out impedance at a standard 1 Khz. An IEM varies in impedance across the frequency range and a higher OI would boost or affect a particular frequency depending on how the IEM's own impedance chart is. A low OI amp (like UHA-6S, Meier Amps) would easily solve the issue providing a better drive and dynamics to IEMs.

Of course, this is limited to amps that are what amps should be - wire with a gain. Some amps color the sound, which would again restrict the kind of IEMs you can pair with them. In most cases, those are suited for reverse matching i.e., keeping the IEM / headphone and searching for ways to alter it's sound signature like using a tube amplifier with Beyer T1 / HD800.

Reactive said:
I'm a bit confused here. I'm using my d2k with an E5 to fulfil their basic requirement of amplification as their sound is really low without an amp. As I've read everywhere that they are very easy to drive because of low impedance so do they really need an amp/dac to shine.

Earlier I was confused between E17 and Audinst MX1 but then I thought MX1 is neutral and doesn't add any color to the sound (in case of d2k not HD600/650) so is it appropriate to spend around 10k for an amp/dac.
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E5 is not even a good amplifier. They are good for 'bass boost', but that's about it. I vaguely remember them muddying up mids with some IEMs like RE0. You probably need to try a better amp. A good headphone amp would 'improve' every headphone. I always thought amps were useless especially for IEMs until I bought UHA-6S. You realize over a period of time that a good Dac-Amp is not about making you enjoy your favorite IEM 5% more, but about making you listen to your less favorite IEMs without feeling inadequate. This is what UHA-6S does for me. But for headphones, I still prefer the Burson because of it has far better authority.

I have no idea about MX1, so probably you can ask around someone like Faheem before deciding...

PS: I don't understand your line about MX1 being neutral for D2K, but not for 600/650. Do you mean it lacks the driving power for a HD650, because a neutral amp would be a neutral amp irrespective of the headphone.
 
I guess your thoughts regarding amplifiers are as much directed to me as to nikodas2
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. Of course, you're right. I'm guilty of oversimplfying. However, since both his headphones & IEMs don't have that high impedances, I'm still inclined to think an amp would not help that much in improving SQ.

esanthosh said:
E5 is not even a good amplifier. They are good for 'bass boost', but that's about it. I vaguely remember them muddying up mids with some IEMs like RE0. You probably need to try a better amp. A good headphone amp would 'improve' every headphone. I always thought amps were useless especially for IEMs until I bought UHA-6S. You realize over a period of time that a good Dac-Amp is not about making you enjoy your favorite IEM 5% more, but about making you listen to your less favorite IEMs without feeling inadequate. This is what UHA-6S does for me. But for headphones, I still prefer the Burson because of it has far better authority.

I have no idea about MX1, so probably you can ask around someone like Faheem before deciding...

PS: I don't understand your line about MX1 being neutral for D2K, but not for 600/650. Do you mean it lacks the driving power for a HD650, because a neutral amp would be a neutral amp irrespective of the headphone.
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Yep, the E5 is a very low end amplifier (albeit it has decent RMAA scores for its price
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). But I'm not even clear why he needs the E5. The D2K has very low impedance (25 Ohms), so I'm clueless why he's getting a low volume .

@Reactive, Have you tried it with only a single source so far, or tried it with multiple sources?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/575262/denon-d2000-with-and-without-amp-comparison

Head-fi consensus seems to be that an amp will not help much. Given its low impedance, I would agree with this sentiment.

However a good DAC/Soundcard can probably improve the audio quality. If you are OK for internal soundcards, you should be considering the Asus Essense ST/STX in addition to the MX1. I had read a review quite some time ago where the STX was reported as marginally better than MX1. However if you need portabality, the MX1 comes up ahead since its an external DAC.
 
#Oyster,

Looking forward to it very much....

Gryph0n said:
http://www.head-fi.o...-amp-comparison

Head-fi consensus seems to be that an amp will not help much. Given its low impedance, I would agree with this sentiment.
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Head-fi, being noisy and divergent it is, never reaches consensus
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. Impedance + Sensitivity matters, but sometimes, specs do not tell you the whole story. If you are placing emphasis on Head Injury vs Graphicism, I remember a few more threads where these two have the same objectivist vs subjectivist debate. Taking them out, I can gather more evidence of amp being beneficial than without.

Here's another thread : http://www.head-fi.o...ower-the-denons

Seen below are the views of an objectivist, who usually goes by specs, does not think amps are beneficial that much (the typical anythingbutipod line), has compared Benchmark DAC1 and Essence STX and concluded that the "larger sound stage" on DAC-1 was an illusion after some A:B. However, he has not tried D2K and DT880/250 the OP was asking about (One opinion)

Followed by someone who EQ-ed D2K stock to bring it's mid range forward, but thinks portable amps do not do much, but has not tried E7 or E9 (another opinion)

Followed by two people who actually use E7 + E9 with D2K and think it's beneficial (yet another, but subjective opinion)

Don't sweat the impedance differences. You don't need to make your headphones harder to drive, the DT880 is already pretty tough anyway.

I haven't heard either headphone.

I wouldn't use the D2000s with the E9, though. It doesn't measure much better than the E7 to begin with besides power, and the D2000 doesn't need the power. There's also some issues the E9 might have with low impedance high sensitivity headphones like the D2000, such as noise and coloration due to output impedance.
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For amping the Denons an inexpensive portable generally won't do so well. If you play bass heavy music you'll easily get the amp to clip. You need a desktop amp designed for low impedance headphones and one that can deliver enough current so it doesn't clip. I've never tried an E7 or E9. But based on specs I doubt either of them will do the needful for the Denon. Amping is also more than just being able to drive the headphones without clipping. Amping is also about allowing the headphones to have their proper soundstage without restricting them, frequency control, bass control, and other things. Inexpensive portable amps aren't going to do any of that other good stuff either even if they manage to not clip with heavy bass.
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I use the FiiO E7/E9 combo and it worked great with my Denon D2K's, even with just the E7 alone I noticed a improvement in sound.
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Agree 100%. Without the combo, my D2k has too much bass going on. Having heard them with the E7/E9 the bass is tighter and under control. I wouldn't won't them without the amp. Doesn't help the recessed mids though.
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No! Head-fi can be used to find people with similar opinions or learn about arguments against your thought process, but it is like any other forum - one big, divergent collection of opinions and thoughts - no more, no less!

Coming to my own opinion... (finally)...

The "improvement" depends largely on the individual ears. Some of the headphones or IEMs are already good when driven out of normal portable sources.I have driven almost everything out of Clip+ and only found a few like RE0, RE1 which required an amp and some like PFE, RE262, RE272 and so on which benefit from amplification even if they do not "need" an amp to sound good. I don't know which category D2K falls into. The derived benefits from amping (apart from the ability to achieve louder volume and in most cases, "louder" can be mistaken for better quality because of the ease of hearing things) are sometimes subtle - like bringing out better dynamics, a slight improvement in sound stage. Depending on individual ears, these improvements can mean the difference between liking a headphone and dumping it. I for one was always of the opinion that amps do not benefit IEMs or even headphones and used to try everything out of Clip+. But, that opinion has shifted a bit since switching to brick portable rigs and getting a DAC-Amp desktop combo.

As for the question by #Reactive, it would be beneficial to try out a MX1. If I am not mistaken, #Fah33M must have heard the combo or at least can suggest based on his experience with D5K and MX1.
 
esanthosh said:
No! Head-fi can be used to find people with similar opinions or learn about arguments against your thought process, but it is like any other forum - one big, divergent collection of opinions and thoughts - no more, no less!
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Yeah, spot on there. I just searched for d2k and amp, and being lazy, pulled up the first post that talked about these 2 together Confirmation bias I guess. I suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to find another post going in the opposite conclusion.

esanthosh said:
I for one was always of the opinion that amps do not benefit IEMs or even headphones and used to try everything out of Clip+. But, that opinion has shifted a bit since switching to brick portable rigs and getting a DAC-Amp desktop combo.
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Interesting. I'm sorta in the first camp right now, where I think of amps as necessary only with high impedance cans/iems .

Can you please let me know what sources & amps you're currently using, and what you were using earlier (to understand the upgrade flow).

FWIW, i use Sansa Fuze for portable needs (up from Nokia N82), and on desktop have a Essense STX (up from Onboard -> Xonar DX -> STX). I have heard better SQ than the STX, but the setup involved a pretty expensive CDP & Amp at an audio showroom
 
Still on the lookout for nice rockbox skin, most of them a just plain annoying.
Gryph0n said:
have a Essense STX (up from Onboard -> Xonar DX -> STX). I have heard better SQ than the STX, but the setup involved a pretty expensive
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CDP & Amp at an audio showroom
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The STX should drive the D2K just fine, barely remember the stx as I sold mine a couple of years ago............. remember the HD600 sounded alright with it, synergy might not be brilliant but the bundled software with the stx was decent and high gain did make a difference.

On a more personal note, my RSA Protector came in yesterday, waiting for the balanced cable to arrive tomorrow.
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Sounds pretty ordinary through the regular headphone out......................if anyone is thinking of getting this and NOT getting your cans/iems balanced cables right away pass and get a mustang, its miles ahead through the regular output.
 
Ritvik.....please find some time? I have to meet you. I have a protector and a hd600 lying around and I want to try the balanced cable which is only available if one orders it.

I also wanted to try it with my hd25-1 II. I'll even get my fiio e17 and the sflo2 along for comparisons.
 
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