'Rapes prevalent in India not in Bharat' - RSS chief

[Mr.J]

Asaram Bapu holds girl responsible for Delhi gangrape, says 'spare' the rapists, slams media
Spiritual leader Asaram Bapu courted controversy for suggesting that the victim of the brutal sexual assault was equally responsible for the crime and saying the girl could have called her assailants brothers and begged them to stop.
Asaram's remarks on the gangrape of the 23-year-old girl sparked condemnation across the political spectrum and from women's bodies today with the BJP saying it was "regrettable, deeply disturbing and painful".

Asaram Bapu holds girl responsible for Delhi gangrape, says 'spare' the rapists, slams media - Indian Express

Seriously? :O

 

[ALPHA17]

Seriously? :O

Shocking to say the least and again just as suspected, somebody has quote-unquote 'misinterpreted' the guy --

An aide to Asaram sought to downplay the controversy over the remarks. Neelam Dubey said the remarks were made at a religious discourse in Delhi in the context of how one should invoke God's name to avoid incidents like crimes against women. Some reports said the event was held in Rajasthan.

Dubey said Asaram was trying ta drive home the point that incidents like the gangrape of the girl could have been avoided by reciting mantras, by reciting names of Gods. "If she(victim) would have taken God's name or recited a mantra God inside her might have suggested her to how to avoid such crimes," she said, seeking to explain Asaram's remarks.

 

[alekhkhanna]

^^ DaFaq !
There should be a limit on the idiocy allowed in democracy.

 

[ankxxs]

Well after sunday's & last night's personal incidents I will not be shocked if rapes will never stop & keep on happening in India.

Sunday night my sister came & ask me to report about her lost wallet which had her vehicle R.C., debit card & examination admit card. We went to Police station did the formalities came back from police station & mind you this police station is adjacent to a very busy market complex & while coming back four guys in drunken state commented on my sister & I stared back at them & they stopped. Then they called me up & I told my sister to stay away & call my friend who was standing at the other side of the market with my bike. Those guys started calling m me names & other things but I was trying to diffuse the whole thing as my sister was there.My sister came & asked me toleave then they started calling her things & that aggravated my temper & I blasted on them to stay but they ran for exit of the market, I called up my friend on other side of the exit & stalled them but as soon as as he reached at exit, those guys left but my friend got their car number. Then I called up my other two friends & started looking for those guys . My friend finally traced them & caught hold of them & we reached their but two of the guys ran away&we bashed them. Then we asked them details of other two guys & reached those guys place & told them what their kids have done & mind you by all this my mother had came to know about it & came with us. The parents ofthose guys were like & these are the exact words of those people" hamarey bachhon ne toh kuch nahi kiya hum phir bhi maafi mangtey hai"( our kids have not done anything wrong but we still apologize). We launched complaint & then they begged us for mercy &all &Mom finally quashed the report with a warning if next time they did it with any of the gal they will notbe left without consequences & those parents were still adamant that tey have done no wrong. Bloody crap.

Last night I went out with my friend for some work to market & while coming back we stopped at a place to have rolls, while having rolls two cops came & started moving my bike. I asked them whatis happening & they toldme that guy standing with them need to open his car which was with some 100% black film glasses to get his R.C. SO Head constable started arguing with that guy & his junior came & stood with us & started saying" abtoh inn logon ko akkal aa jaani chaiye,itna kuch ho gaya koi police wala chorrdega nahi black film par" (These guys shouldget some brains after so much of happening & remove the black films as no cop will let them go after the Bus incident). Then that cop said that girl who suffered the whole ordeal in that Bus incidentwas at fault cause she was so late out with a guy & boarded a bus with tinted black films & after hearing this I stared back at the cop & my friend rushed me from there.

So after thinking about these incidents,I realized we need upheaval sort of thing for the whole society & as people to realize the position of women in our society & lives because with just changing lawas & making them stricter will not yield anything & we are doomed for sure.

 

[ALPHA17]

^^ DaFaq !
There should be a limit on the idiocy allowed in democracy.

As long as their are 'God-men' and God fearing men this shall continue.

And unfortunately a democracy means playing the LCM card. =|

 

[alekhkhanna]

Well after sunday's & last night's personal incidents I will not be shocked if rapes will never stop & keep on happening in India.

Sunday night my sister came & ask me to report about her lost wallet which had her vehicle R.C., debit card & examination admit card. We went to Police station did the formalities came back from police station & mind you this police station is adjacent to a very busy market complex & while coming back four guys in drunken state commented on my sister & I stared back at them & they stopped. Then they called me up & I told my sister to stay away & call my friend who was standing at the other side of the market with my bike. Those guys started calling m me names & other things but I was trying to diffuse the whole thing as my sister was there.My sister came & asked me toleave then they started calling her things & that aggravated my temper & I blasted on them to stay but they ran for exit of the market, I called up my friend on other side of the exit & stalled them but as soon as as he reached at exit, those guys left but my friend got their car number. Then I called up my other two friends & started looking for those guys . My friend finally traced them & caught hold of them & we reached their but two of the guys ran away&we bashed them. Then we asked them details of other two guys & reached those guys place & told them what their kids have done & mind you by all this my mother had came to know about it & came with us. The parents ofthose guys were like & these are the exact words of those people" hamarey bachhon ne toh kuch nahi kiya hum phir bhi maafi mangtey hai"( our kids have not done anything wrong but we still apologize). We launched complaint & then they begged us for mercy &all &Mom finally quashed the report with a warning if next time they did it with any of the gal they will notbe left without consequences & those parents were still adamant that tey have done no wrong. Bloody crap.

Last night I went out with my friend for some work to market & while coming back we stopped at a place to have rolls, while having rolls two cops came & started moving my bike. I asked them whatis happening & they toldme that guy standing with them need to open his car which was with some 100% black film glasses to get his R.C. SO Head constable started arguing with that guy & his junior came & stood with us & started saying" abtoh inn logon ko akkal aa jaani chaiye,itna kuch ho gaya koi police wala chorrdega nahi black film par" (These guys shouldget some brains after so much of happening & remove the black films as no cop will let them go after the Bus incident). Then that cop said that girl who suffered the whole ordeal in that Bus incidentwas at fault cause she was so late out with a guy & boarded a bus with tinted black films & after hearing this I stared back at the cop & my friend rushed me from there.

So after thinking about these incidents,I realized we need upheaval sort of thing for the whole society & as people to realize the position of women in our society & lives because with just changing lawas & making them stricter will not yield anything & we are doomed for sure.

The cops are equal perpetrators in crimes like these. And with most of the country (barring a minority of middle class families in the likes of metros and good urban areas) still blaming the girl on what happened, I doubt a law will do anything good.
If anything, they should make sex education mandatory in school, and open helplines for teenagers to ask questions (mostly because the schools/parents themselves will shove away the subject) if needed. And these should be done at the grass root level, not for somebody living in Greater Kailash in Delhi. Only then we can hope that possibly a couple of generations later our children will be able to roam around in peace.
Till the basic misogynist mentality is changed, nobody is safe.

As long as their are 'God-men' and God fearing men this shall continue.

And unfortunately a democracy means playing the LCM card. =|

True that mate.

 

[DigitalDude]

Yes, I read the Hindu and The Tribune, both are trust run establishments. And The Tribune employs ex-Servicemen. Obviously on Parole of the political institutes.

I don't understand the context of this statement. or do you not really understand the issues of paid news, government ads directly in the form of scheme ads indirectly in the form of PSU ads, PSU event sponsorships, history bio & citizenship of editors, court/CBI cases on editors, unsecured large bank loans, land and flat allotment to editors and anchors, invitations to high level parties etc

The are two confirmed instances of fabricated newsreports by The Hindu in past few months. One is blaming a school administration for cutting a student's hair to show that he is from lower class, several followup articles tarnished the image of the school. But when police investigations revealed it as a ragging incident by senior students no apology was issued. Second incident is about the source of sms that warned Assam students in Karnataka (during assam riots) and triggered panic and exodus.. the paper attributed the source to a nationalist group in Delhi. But police investigation revealed a local group, again no apology was issued. Numerous hitjobs are conducted by these media ppl (not just tv guys). more can be found here www.thehoot.org

Ummm... okay. Watch ZEITGEIST: FINAL EDITION and you will see similar phantasmagoric MEDIA = ALL EVIL, universally.

I have seen them (all the zeitgeist videos). media has mostly become a corporate entity serving interests of other corporates and the political establishment. exceptions are far and few. obviously this is a worldwide phenomenon. people also have to share the blame for being oblivious or indifferent. ofcourse you can mock all these accusations and reject the very discussion as irrelevant. very easy. there are other problems also Looking at Christianity?s handshake with media in India (Book Review) - Thaindian News

Okay man, no point trying to explain to you why we live in a democracy. Forces that work to the contrary, wonderful. Maybe we should pull the Army out of Kashmir, Gujarat and North-Eastern states. And we should all live in our cocooned campuses.

Now I really don't understand what you are saying. I never knew debate and discussions are not allowed in a democracy. Did I say anything against democracy nor did I say we should force or ban anything? nor did I advocate any strict form of protectionism. Whatever I said has nothing to do with defence forces or physical security of India. I'm really clueless what you are hinting at? Do you mean to say that only threats for our country are in the borders? Are you that naive?

Oh! Yes, yes. These very 'tools' that are used by the MEDIA to poison our thoughts.

When I complained about unidimensional race for materialism without contemplation of spirituality, you mocked it by equating 'materialism' with technological tools like smartphones, computers etc and said anyone talking about 'materialism' should automatically not use technology. I questioned the logic in that statement by asking you to recognise the difference between 'tools', 'technology' and 'thought' implying that technological advancement or scientific thinking or usage of technological tools (like gadgets) are irrelevant to the criticism of social and cultural values.

So how much relevance is there in your reply to the above?

Thanks to industrialization, no matter even if India were free we could not compete against the cheaper and more numerous varieties of products on offer by the Western nation, maybe you need to realize why we as a nation never industrialised. It had more to do with the lack of political integrity in the nation than lack of capital. The British leached away the said capital after taking over the Princely states OR paying them off.

I was not at all talking about post-independence.

Read it and although he has raised valid points it is not the gospel truth.

I value Arun Shourie, Stephen Knapp and few other author's work more than many western/colonial historians or sources. Your opinion may differ. you may also read 'lies with long legs' by prodosh aich.

Can I call you a Right wing Nationalist because that is what you are.

call me whatever but I fail to understand the point unless you want to imply preconceived notions without arguing directly to the topics on hand. anyway there is no clear demarcation or definition of right wing left wing in Indian political context. they have several negative connotations and distorted representations by the indian liberal discourse. if you really want to put me under a term you can use 'Hindu nationalist'.

Wonderful. I saw it three times and with my damaged understanding of Hindi, I must say all that I understood was --

• Marriage is a contract. No mention of any culture.
• Some gibberish on Higgs Boson particle.
• Industrialist and Environmentalist are the same people in different social standings

Finally it was you guys who brought in Politics and Paid media into discussions.

either you need a class in hindi or sarcasm. but judging by your generous use of nothing but sarcasm and smirk in your reply I guess it is the former. and yeah we can start another thread titled 'RSS chief isn't proficient with quantum physics in a country where all thought leaders are physics majors.. haha what a dumb ass' that would be a totally necessary duty as a responsible citizen of India to expose the unelected leaders of the nation who have no understanding of quantum physics. then the RSS bashing circlejerk can start again.

as the news quoted in the thread is deliberately distorted and fabricated to obfuscate a more serious issue, criticisms of the media and the central government were inevitable. it is not a case of 'bringing into' for the sake of it. even the news agency ANI and media houses apologised and retracted the fabricated video feed and reports . but that is entirely a legal safeguard move. the hitjob is over, damage has been done, image has been tarnished. Distraction is still going on with different fodder.

I am not going to change your thought process because I cannot and whatever said is from the P.o.V of the '

PAID MEDIA-HOUSES' and charlatan Central government. Cheers!

'paid media houses' and 'charlatan government' is not without basis or proof. That was only used while pointing out the false news report. you can't dis-associate these two issues from the thread when the title itself is a product of those two. No need to bind them with the discussions on what bhagawat actually said.

P.S. -- I have also lost all 'Bharatiya' values because I stayed exposed too long to Western culture, follow metal and have not stayed in the proscribed sacrosanct ways of a 'Bharatvasi'.

all you are doing is mocking and making irrelevant replies. self-sufficiency in critical areas is absolute necessary for the sovereignty of a nation and self-reliance (swadeshi) for the long term prosperity especially for a country like India. Our country is deviating far away from those two in many aspects not just social values and culture. this is the big picture... to not to lose identity and own ability due to believing that everything that glitters as gold. but everyone is at his freedom to make looney statements equating the broad based thoughts in previous sentence to specific topics like taste in music, technology, geographical location etc. it just shows the lack of understanding.

Asaram Bapu holds girl responsible for Delhi gangrape, says 'spare' the rapists, slams media

Seriously?

this guy has an ego the size of a planet. he has made several foot in mouth statements like these before. He even once warned to throw out the Gujarat govt for some issue. and everytime media doesn't fail to put all these crap in primetime. which is to successfully put the spotlight on these irrelevant people than on the government whenever it has failed massively in it's duty. anyway every notable guy and his grandma has condemed these statements and he has retracted and apologised http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Cornered-Asaram-denies-rape-remarks-then-offers-apology/articleshow/17947696.cms.

those views clearly show his indifference and outdated pacifist mentality. this idiotic pacifism is the number one reason for the mess we as a country are now revelling in. another pacifist and a 'bapu' gave same advice to jews to plead with Hitler and punjabi women to plead & beg with their rapists during partition... guess who.

As long as their are '

God-men' and God fearing men this shall continue.

And unfortunately a democracy means playing the LCM card. =|

nice hypothesis you got there. why don't you look into the past and present of communist nations/regimes where there are no god-men or god fearing men.

and for clarity, in hinduism swamis gurus acharyas etc have only the status of a teacher/mentor/coach. so the word god-men is yet another exclusive vocabulary of the Indian media used ONLY while portraying hindu gurus swamis etc. they don't use it 'otherwise'.

OK, I agree, I am brainwashed by *these* media. Your sources are more credible and RSS and their idealogies are a must for the welfare of the nation.

My sources are two reports by the Special Investigation Team appointed by the Supreme Court of India and judgements of Gujarat High Court. Those investigations have found out there is no truth to many allegations like in the document you quoted and numerous other bogeys raised by the gujarat riots cottage industry. if you have questions on the credibility of those institutions, appeal with a review petition.

the ideology of RSS, partly, I said in my previous post but to put it succintly it is to commit to selfless social service without any discrimination and unity of people of India. but I don't know what you think is a must for the welfare of the nation... being distracted in questioning non-state actors for their foolish remarks or questioning the government and legislators for their appaling indifference. as you are pre-disposed in portraying RSS as some evil organisation to be equated to taliban etc I guess you will again power off your volatile memory and make another hollow statement.

Of course, the past is important. Science builds upon its past achievements. But holding your 'culture' and 'civilisation' as great because of past achievements is wrong when there is so much to be done in the present. Many people happily ignore the present and rest on the laurels of their past.

Well, ask those people to also concentrate on the present, not the other way round. You are mis-understanding...... our culture and civilization WAS great.

When I play as Russian team in battlefield 3 and the team is losing a voice says "we are Russians for ****s sake, turn it around" think about it. There's nothing wrong in saying we are Indians/bharatiyas for ****s sake, turn it around. Hope you understand how past laurels and present potential are implied in that statement.

The fact that we all have subconscious biases is the reason we have peer review. If your aim is objectivity and rationality why would you be pro-Indian (or pro-any country/organisation) at all ? You would only be pro-whatever is objectively right.

there is no reasonable and just system of peer review for broad social concepts and many philosophical discussions. not everything can be fit into a pragmatic system suitable for scientific topics. every (social) institution has it's biases. only thing matters is whether they are good or bad (you can again argue that it is also relative but extending this we can fully dive into reductionism and then bang our heads into the wall before trying to forget that such a discussion was even necessary).

why I'm pro-India is the result of my knowledge and past experiences in finding objective and rationally fulfilling ideas. which is what is reflecting in my arguments that I try to expound (that the 'idea of bharat' 'hindu school of economics' etc is objectively and rationally good for our progress as a society, for which you are replying with your opinions on why it may not be).

Again blanket terms ("western marriage system", "Indian marriage system"). Marriages are between individuals who have their own values.

No. it is not just a phenomenon between 'individuals'. let me ask you a question, answer me generally. what is the general possibility that a western guy would be marrying a girl who has had a sexual relationship with a boy friend in the past. How does that probability compare to if the boy is Indian? The answer will tell you that not everything is individual disposition.

Not all western marriages are 'contractual' and not all Indian marriages are 'sacred' (and vice-versa). One only has to look at domestic violence data and all the other problems that plague many Indian (and western) marriages.

Again you are confusing, the discussion is not whether what is happening NOW in the Indian society is ideal/better compared to what is happening NOW in the western society. Eventhough that is also to an extant correct. Check out the amount of single parents and teenage pregnancies in US and its growth rate is alarming.

Mohan bhahawat was quoting a social study in US that has concluded that most western marriages have become contractual in nature and that nowadays many Indians are also treading the same path. Yes there are always exceptions. Marriage Seen Through a Contract Lens

Before criticising the 'western system of marriage' ( a blanket term in the first place), please also realise the fact that in India many women bear abuse from their husbands because they fear how society will view them if they get a divorce. All the talk that would go on behind their backs.

You completely miss the point again, the discussion is not whether what is happening NOW in Indian society is ideal/better compared to what is happening NOW in the western society. What mohan bhagawat said was - what may happen in the FUTURE in Indian society will be better than what is happening NOW in the Indian society if we expound many of our ancient social and personal values instead of blindly aping the west in unidimensional zeal for material riches.

Although I can't be certain, it is very plausible that a man who makes statements like this can also talk about 'Bharat' and 'India'.

I don't understand. What statement?

All I sense is a hate for everything (or as many things as possible) that is western in origin.

It seems several filters are limiting and distorting sensory capabilities.

BTW, I'm not replying to every statement of yours because I disagree with a lot of what you're saying. It'd take a lot of writing on my part to pen down a complete rebuttal. Nevertheless, people who are reading all of this can make up their own minds even if we can't change each other's .

No two people can agree on everything. I'm primarily talking to you the thread creator on the fact that the newsreport about RSS chief this thread is quoting is factually wrong. All other discussions are secondary. I'm least bothered about what people think about the secondary issues.

Vacuous Media Sleazeballs Moralize Against Mohan Bhagwat

ALPHA17 Goes back to sleep in his WESTERN shorts while dreaming of Bharatiya values.

this is the best you can come up with finally? both of you are making the same mistake. how difficult is it to understand that tools, dressing, food and all these objects are different from thoughts of social values, philosophies etc? I can't say if you guys are that dumb in failing to recognise this basic distinction or just pretending. 'american way of life' or 'the american dream' is not going to reject eating in chinese or japanese restaurants or driving japanese cars or using korean electronics or the gazillion products made in china or stop employing Indian workers or reject zeros and number system. but their wisdom lies in not using Chinese equipment in their nuclear laboratories. there lies a difference. there is nothing wrong in assimilating the good and rejecting the bad. but that starts with recognising what is good or bad and not blindly accepting everything new as good.





_

 

[ALPHA17]

Now I really don't understand what you are saying. I never knew debate and discussions are not allowed in a democracy. Did I say anything against democracy nor did I say we should force or ban anything? nor did I advocate any strict form of protectionism. Whatever I said has nothing to do with defence forces or physical security of India. I'm really clueless what you are hinting at? Do you mean to say that only threats for our country are in the borders? Are you that naive?

Never mind you won't understand. There are sufficient internal threats, Reds have brought down Jharkhand and Chattishgarh.

When I complained about unidimensional race for materialism without contemplation of spirituality, you mocked it by equating 'materialism' with technological tools like smartphones, computers etc and said anyone talking about 'materialism' should automatically not use technology. I questioned the logic in that statement by asking you to recognise the difference between 'tools', 'technology' and 'thought' implying that technological advancement or scientific thinking or usage of technological tools (like gadgets) are irrelevant to the criticism of social and cultural values.

But they are, when a Mass Service can be disseminated as a Podcast, Bhajan's and Namaz can be blared from high power speakers technology becomes a 'tool' for the agents. If you cannot get this then why call me naive.

So how much relevance is there in your reply to the above?

I was not at all talking about post-independence.

I was talking pre-independence.

Also Post-independence we were a colonized nation, a dumping ground for Western goods and had no major industries save Tata metals (top of my mind, right now). So your argument falls flat. Advancement of industries means a lot apart from just setting up infrastructure and allotting funds. You need to change people and their mindsets, just look at what happened with the FDI bill. Yes it needed to be framed for the Indian context but the blatant opposition of it.

I value Arun Shourie, Stephen Knapp and few other author's work more than many western/colonial historians or sources. Your opinion may differ. you may also read 'lies with long legs' by prodosh aich.

Again, nothing wrong following their thought but they are not the only people on topic and what they write is not completely colourless.

call me whatever but I fail to understand the point unless you want to imply preconceived notions without arguing directly to the topics on hand. anyway there is no clear demarcation or definition of right wing left wing in Indian political context. they have several negative connotations and distorted representations by the indian liberal discourse. if you really want to put me under a term you can use 'Hindu nationalist'.

Yes, there is a very specific reason I called you that. Because you behave like one.

To you separating 'Bharat' and 'India' is fair, for whatever reason(s). This has happened before in history, the ending was a racial-genocide and 6 years long war.

Put yourself in that context and see how the points-of-thought merge so easily.

either you need a class in hindi or sarcasm. but judging by your generous use of nothing but sarcasm and smirk in your reply I guess it is the former. and yeah we can start another thread titled 'RSS chief isn't proficient with quantum physics in a country where all thought leaders are physics majors.. haha what a dumb ass' that would be a totally necessary duty as a responsible citizen of India to expose the unelected leaders of the nation who have no understanding of quantum physics. then the RSS bashing circlejerk can start again.

I need both. And I learnt that our political class is totally inept in the understanding of military matters when I was in fourth. Best summed up --
"I wonder whether those of our political masters who have been put in charge of the defence of the country can distinguish a mortar from a motor; a gun from a howitzer; a guerrilla from a gorilla, although a great many resemble the latter."

Please make that thread and I have already mentioned very explicitly, democracy is the LCM factor in play. Mulayam Singh as the Defence Minister, refer above quote again.


all you are doing is mocking and making irrelevant replies. self-sufficiency in critical areas is absolute necessary for the sovereignty of a nation and self-reliance (swadeshi) for the long term prosperity especially for a country like India. Our country is deviating far away from those two in many aspects not just social values and culture. this is the big picture... to not to lose identity and own ability due to believing that everything that glitters as gold. but everyone is at his freedom to make looney statements equating the broad based thoughts in previous sentence to specific topics like taste in music, technology, geographical location etc. it just shows the lack of understanding.

Yes at the rate DRDO and HAL work might as well start to construct walls all around our borders. 50 ft deep and 400 ft high, minimum.

those views clearly show his indifference and outdated pacifist mentality. this idiotic pacifism is the number one reason for the mess we as a country are now revelling in. another pacifist and a 'bapu' gave same advice to jews to plead with Hitler and punjabi women to plead & beg with their rapists during partition... guess who.

Yes we all know who, thank you.


nice hypothesis you got there. why don't you look into the past and present of communist nations/regimes where there are no god-men or god fearing men.

and for clarity, in hinduism swamis gurus acharyas etc have only the status of a teacher/mentor/coach. so the word god-men is yet another exclusive vocabulary of the Indian media used ONLY while portraying hindu gurus swamis etc. they don't use it 'otherwise'.

I agree that 'God-men' is used in Indian media, its origin is much older and in Christianity --> God-man (mystic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Look how cleverly China is using it (religion) currently, to counter anti-centrist / Communist bashing. Same with other cultural mediums, such as martial arts and traditional theatre.


My sources are two reports by the Special Investigation Team appointed by the Supreme Court of India and judgements of Gujarat High Court. Those investigations have found out there is no truth to many allegations like in the document you quoted and numerous other bogeys raised by the gujarat riots cottage industry. if you have questions on the credibility of those institutions, appeal with a review petition.

Yes, we know. All hail BJP (and in extension NDA) the last bastion of hope for this beleaguered country.

the ideology of RSS, partly, I said in my previous post but to put it succintly it is to commit to selfless social service without any discrimination and unity of people of India. but I don't know what you think is a must for the welfare of the nation... being distracted in questioning non-state actors for their foolish remarks or questioning the government and legislators for their appaling indifference. as you are pre-disposed in portraying RSS as some evil organisation to be equated to taliban etc I guess you will again power off your volatile memory and make another hollow statement.

Yes, even the Hamas claims the same and Taliban started as the same. I think you know the words meaning 'Talib' -- means student and they were supposed to take Afghanistan down the path of modernity and reform instead a few bigoted, misogynist heads got to the top and you know the rest.

The Afghanistan of the Red's was surprisingly more like an American country than how it has been painted as a feudal society.


Well, ask those people to also concentrate on the present, not the other way round. You are mis-understanding...... our culture and civilization WAS great.

When I play as Russian team in battlefield 3 and the team is losing a voice says "we are Russians for ****s sake, turn it around" think about it. There's nothing wrong in saying we are Indians/bharatiyas for ****s sake, turn it around. Hope you understand how past laurels and present potential are implied in that statement.

^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Jingoism to the peak. Playing a game and equating it with real-life.

If you think it is so easy to turn around things, try to stay a day in the conditions of a jawan on the front.

why I'm pro-India is the result of my knowledge and past experiences in finding objective and rationally fulfilling ideas. which is what is reflecting in my arguments that I try to expound (that the 'idea of bharat' 'hindu school of economics' etc is objectively and rationally good for our progress as a society, for which you are replying with your opinions on why it may not be).

Then I have to tell you that the idea of a 'Bharat' separate from 'India' is flimsy and narrow-minded.

Mohan bhahawat was quoting a social study in US that has concluded that most western marriages have become contractual in nature and that nowadays many Indians are also treading the same path. Yes there are always exceptions. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/f...ough-a-contract-lens.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

So NY Times obviously publishes the truth even after being a media-house. Maybe I should switch to them.

It seems several filters are limiting and distorting sensory capabilities.

Yep, reverse can be said too.

http://www.sandeepweb.com/2013/01/08/vacuous-media-sleazeballs-moralize-against-mohan-bhagwat/

The name of the link gives it away. Sandeep web. Maybe for facebook developments I should tune into Halal-facebook.

_

Look you have our views on point, you chaps brought in the Paid-Media, charlatan government and that. Is all cool, we live in a democracy but trying to hammer it down my gullet won't work.

Politics is a dirty game and those who throw dirt tend to have dirt on themselves.

“There's never been a true war that wasn't fought between two sets of people who were certain they were in the right. The really dangerous people believe they are doing whatever they are doing solely and only because it is without question the right thing to do. And that is what makes them dangerous.”
-- Neil Gaiman

 

[Orija]

either you need a class in hindi or sarcasm. but judging by your generous use of nothing but sarcasm and smirk in your reply I guess it is the former. and yeah we can start another thread titled 'RSS chief isn't proficient with quantum physics in a country where all thought leaders are physics majors.. haha what a dumb ass' that would be a totally necessary duty as a responsible citizen of India to expose the unelected leaders of the nation who have no understanding of quantum physics. then the RSS bashing circlejerk can start again.

I'd say these mofos aren't bashed enough.


nice hypothesis you got there. why don't you look into the past and present of communist nations/regimes where there are no god-men or god fearing men.

It's no hypothesis, man. Like Hitchen's said "Religion poisons everything."


My sources are two reports by the Special Investigation Team appointed by the Supreme Court of India and judgements of Gujarat High Court. Those investigations have found out there is no truth to many allegations like in the document you quoted and numerous other bogeys raised by the gujarat riots cottage industry. if you have questions on the credibility of those institutions, appeal with a review petition.

While you conveniently choose to ignore the accussations of bias against them and Kodnani's conviction.


the ideology of RSS, partly, I said in my previous post but to put it succintly it is to commit to selfless social service without any discrimination and unity of people of India. but I don't know what you think is a must for the welfare of the nation... being distracted in questioning non-state actors for their foolish remarks or questioning the government and legislators for their appaling indifference. as you are pre-disposed in portraying RSS as some evil organisation to be equated to taliban etc I guess you will again power off your volatile memory and make another hollow statement.

I don't think Muslims, women and Dalits are included in this "selfless social service without any discrimination and unity of people of India."

Umm, isn't the media doing what you suggest when it comes to BJP's involvement in the Gujarat riots?


When I play as Russian team in battlefield 3 and the team is losing a voice says "we are Russians for ****s sake, turn it around" think about it. There's nothing wrong in saying we are Indians/bharatiyas for ****s sake, turn it around. Hope you understand how past laurels and present potential are implied in that statement.

You can't be serious.


why I'm pro-India is the result of my knowledge and past experiences in finding objective and rationally fulfilling ideas. which is what is reflecting in my arguments that I try to expound (that the 'idea of bharat' 'hindu school of economics' etc is objectively and rationally good for our progress as a society, for which you are replying with your opinions on why it may not be).

The only reason you're pro-India is because you were born here. You rationalize the Hindu-Bharat rhetoric after.


Check out the amount of single parents and teenage pregnancies in US and its growth rate is alarming.

Check out the amount of sex selective abortions and dowry deaths in India, their growth rate is alarming.


Mohan bhahawat was quoting a social study in US that has concluded that most western marriages have become contractual in nature and that nowadays many Indians are also treading the same path. Yes there are always exceptions. Marriage Seen Through a Contract Lens You completely miss the point again, the discussion is not whether what is happening NOW in Indian society is ideal/better compared to what is happening NOW in the western society. What mohan bhagawat said was - what may happen in the FUTURE in Indian society will be better than what is happening NOW in the Indian society if we expound many of our ancient social and personal values instead of blindly aping the west in unidimensional zeal for material riches.

What's wrong with that? Marriage is not a sacred institution that should be preserved as it has been in past. And given the amount of domestic violence, marital rape and dowry harassment it would be good to have such a system to be established in India too. Which ancient social and personal values are we talking about?

Noooo

 

[OinkBoink]

there is no reasonable and just system of peer review for broad social concepts and many philosophical discussions. not everything can be fit into a pragmatic system suitable for scientific topics. every (social) institution has it's biases. only thing matters is whether they are good or bad (you can again argue that it is also relative but extending this we can fully dive into reductionism and then bang our heads into the wall before trying to forget that such a discussion was even necessary).

Can you please tell me what these social concepts and philosophies are? If you're talking about practically useful things like data on marriage, rapes etc. that give some understanding of how society is, these things can be scientifically scrutinized. If your philosophies and values can't be scrutinized in any way, there's no rational reason to believe that they are any superior to the other philosophies and values out there.

let me ask you a question, answer me generally. what is the general possibility that a western guy would be marrying a girl who has had a sexual relationship with a boy friend in the past. How does that probability compare to if the boy is Indian? The answer will tell you that not everything is individual disposition.


May I know if there was some sort of a subtle implication in this question ? If there was, I don't care if people are happy marrying others who've had pre-marital sex. It's up to them.

Going to the individual level, in many cases (though probably not all), gives you a framework to understand the large scale behaviour of systems.

Marriage is a phenomenon between individuals. The traditions/perception of the average values behind them may be spread over broad geographies.

Yes, everything isn't individual. Probabilities and ideas may be applied to groups too. But this still does not justify your argument about the 'Indian marriage system' being superior to the 'western marriage system'. It's not just about how long you stay married but also about how satisfied you feel in that marriage and whether your marriage allows you to grow as an individual. If we go by the analysis of groups, the 'western marriage system' seems to give more respect to individual liberties and growth than 'the Indian marriage system' on an average does (no, I am not supporting one marriage system over another as a whole). What mostly matters in Indian society is that both individuals in a marriage stay together (even if they are unsatisfied). People pressure them into saving their marriage no matter what. Indian marriages, on an average, can be pretty husband centric too. I remember when my grandfather (paternal) died they broke all my grandmother's bangles, removed her bindi and in many families widows used to wear white sarees for the rest of their lives. You might argue that India has changed. But the residues of these beliefs still remain. On a side note, the use of horoscopes and astrology to select mates is just ridiculous.


Mohan bhahawat was quoting a social study in US that has concluded that most western marriages have become contractual in nature and that nowadays many Indians are also treading the same path. Yes there are always exceptions. Marriage Seen Through a Contract Lens

I can pull out tons of articles from places on why there are significant problems in the 'Indian marriage system' and in Indian marriages.

Once again, in India several people bear abuse from their spouse but hesitate to separate because of what society might think. Divorce is still looked down upon by many people.

You completely miss the point again, the discussion is not whether what is happening NOW in Indian society is ideal/better compared to what is happening NOW in the western society. What mohan bhagawat said was - what may happen in the FUTURE in Indian society will be better than what is happening NOW in the Indian society if we expound many of our ancient social and personal values instead of blindly aping the west in unidimensional zeal for material riches.

What are these social and personal values ? I can't talk for everyone but I don't 'blindly ape' anyone.

I don't understand. What statement?

His statement on marriages. I've already expounded my views on them. Oh and, respect and obligations are not unique to Indian marriages.

It seems several filters are limiting and distorting sensory capabilities.

I guess our feelings towards each other are mutual on this one.

Vacuous Media Sleazeballs Moralize Against Mohan Bhagwat

Your article sucks in my opinion. I have several problems with it. And I still think the RSS chief speaks a lot of crap.

this is the best you can come up with finally? both of you are making the same mistake. how difficult is it to understand that tools, dressing, food and all these objects are different from thoughts of social values, philosophies etc? I can't say if you guys are that dumb in failing to recognise this basic distinction or just pretending. 'american way of life' or 'the american dream' is not going to reject eating in chinese or japanese restaurants or driving japanese cars or using korean electronics or the gazillion products made in china or stop employing Indian workers or reject zeros and number system. but their wisdom lies in not using Chinese equipment in their nuclear laboratories. there lies a difference. there is nothing wrong in assimilating the good and rejecting the bad. but that starts with recognising what is good or bad and not blindly accepting everything new as good.

Please stop implying, if you are in a subtle manner, that we have any interest in the 'american way of life'. And we don't accept everything new as good. Just as the Americans use the ideas of people from various nationalities, we must too if they are beneficial.


Again, please tell us what these values and philosophies are. The core principles of all of science can be summarized in a post but you can't seem to do that with your Indian/Hindu nationalist philosophy. That's pretty odd.

I still don't get why you would be a Hindu nationalist if you were objective. What about Hindu tenets is objectively better than everything else out there (unless you just call all the right stuff Hindu philosophy)? Of course, when you can't even state what your core principles are (and you just brush it aside by asserting that it's my ignorance and that it's too vast a topic which is ridiculous as, as stated before, even the fundamental principles of all of science can be summarized in a post), you can support all sorts of vague ideas/personal opinions under the garb of Hindu/Indian philosophy.

Also, most importantly, as Orija stated above, the only reason you're pro-India is because you were born here. You rationalize the Hindu-Bharat rhetoric (and might I add all the Hindu/Indian philosophy stuff) after. If you were born in a Muslim family, you'd be saying similar stuff about Islamic culture. If you were born in Pakistan you'd be talking about how Pakistani philosophy is 'objectively and rationally right.'

You're making a case for all that's wrong with western society as a whole (without talking at all about what's right with it) and all that's right with Indian society as a whole (without talking at all about what's wrong with it).

Well, if you pick up all that's right with both societies, why call that Indian/Hindu philosophy instead of 'The Grand Unified Societal Philosophy' or something ?

Hindu fascism. Urgh.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

our culture and civilization WAS great.

Er..Our culture and civilization was old and has been around for longer time than many others, but it was not any greater than any one of the other old civilizations like Chinese, Egyptian etc. A lot of people in our country seem to take false pride in the self delusion that we had the greatest of civilizations. It is true that like all civilizations, we had many good things in the past, but also many bad things as well and over the years, it seems the people of our country have endeavored their best to eradicate whatever good there was about our civilization while clinging to whatever bad there was about it. It is alright to remember the good things of our culture in order to set the bar for ourselves for the future, but it is no use for us to take false pride and brag and brag about how great our civilization and culture was when all we cling to the wrong things about it or even trying to expand in all those negative dimensions.

This false sense of pride is one of the prime reasons for the utter pitiable state of our country. Even going merely by the statistics of reported rapes in the country (which I am guessing would not be more than 10% the actual incidents), a rape is happening every 20 min in the country. Thousands of female fetuses are aborted in the womb and thousands of women are brutally tortured or even killed in dowry cases, but yet we feel fully justified in criticizing about other countries and cultures while bragging about our own out of self delusion. India had racial, regional, caste, communal and gender discrimination long before America had any semblance of a society. Yet we fell qualified enough to criticize their culture while ignoring the evils of our own.

With the people having such attitudes, our country is never going to change for the better. Discrimination would be everywhere, crime will be plenty and people will still keep living in their delusions of glory till they themselves become the victim.

 

[OinkBoink]

This false sense of pride is one of the prime reasons for the utter pitiable state of our country. Even going merely by the statistics of reported rapes in the country (which I am guessing would not be more than 10% the actual incidents), a rape is happening every 20 min in the country. Thousands of female fetuses are aborted in the womb and thousands of women are brutally tortured or even killed in dowry cases, but yet we feel fully justified in criticizing about other countries and cultures while bragging about our own out of self delusion. India had racial, regional, caste, communal and gender discrimination long before America had any semblance of a society. Yet we fell qualified enough to criticize their culture while ignoring the evils of our own.

With the people having such attitudes, our country is never going to change for the better. Discrimination would be everywhere, crime will be plenty and people will still keep living in their delusions of glory till they themselves become the victim.

Yes, but all this happens only in India and not in Bharat. *sarcasm intended*

 

[pradeep200417]

Yes, but all this happens only in India and not in Bharat. *sarcasm intended*

Correct

 

[DigitalDude]

Never mind you won't understand. There are sufficient internal threats, Reds have brought down Jharkhand and Chattishgarh.

yup, I won’t understand. I guess I could have saved some time by saying ‘uff you guiz don’t understand’ instead of replying with so much in the thread. reds have much more reach than just jarkhand and chattisgarh. anyway they are only second in threat to the numerous terrorist sleeper cells all over the country. and all these are just direct physical issues. there are countless indirect threats but let me not digress.

But they are, when a Mass Service can be disseminated as a Podcast, Bhajan's and Namaz can be blared from high power speakers technology becomes a

tool for the agents. If you cannot get this then why call me naive.

you still think that there is relation/dependency between a tool and the criticism of issues which may be using that tool.

In criticism of movies and their content does it matter whether it is viewed from a VHS tape or a blu-ray disc? ideas can be criticised, doesn’t matter whether they are in a book, or in a youtube video or in a live play projected holographically in the future. just because I criticise western social values i should stop using the computer, smart phone etc.???

I was talking pre-independence.

Also Post-independence we were a colonized nation, a dumping ground for Western goods and had no major industries save Tata metals (top of my mind, right now). So your argument falls flat. Advancement of industries means a lot apart from just setting up infrastructure and allotting funds. You need to change people and their mindsets, just look at what happened with the FDI bill. Yes it needed to be framed for the Indian context but the blatant opposition of it.

I was saying to OinkBoink that British messed up a lot of things in India along with the culture and history narrative. I don’t see how my arguments fall flat unless you are living in a parallel universe where nothing of that sort happened. changing people and mindsets require clarity in leadership and factual arguments which a string of corrupted self-serving regimes are incapable of. opposition of FDI is not without basis or like you are portraying ‘blatant’. It seems blatant because Congress is in no mood to do any changes to the present bill to address its delibrate loopholes and incorporate feedback. FDI in retail may not help farmers: Stiglitz - Livemint

Again, nothing wrong following their thought but they are not the only people on topic and what they write is not completely colourless.

there is sufficient basis to believe that what the colonial indologists/historians and present western intellectuals write about indian history are more coloured than anything else.

Yes, there is a very specific reason I called you that. Because you behave like one.

To you separating 'Bharat' and 'India' is fair, for whatever reason(s). This has happened before in history, the ending was a racial-genocide and 6 years long war. Put yourself in that context and see how the points-of-thought merge so easily.

There is no issue of separating ‘Bharat’ and ‘India’. the word bharat is used as a peg to represent our ancient values and ideas that may be useful for us to reform as a society. Even our constitution says ‘India that is Bharat’. Many people are of the opinion that modern India is running far away from all of it and behind mad lust/greed for material riches.. an idea which is synonymous to the west. but a section of people are projecting the urban-rural divide as the india-bharat metaphor which is completely foolish and wrong. I will create a separate thread for more clarity on this.

Yes at the rate DRDO and HAL work might as well start to construct walls all around our borders. 50 ft deep and 400 ft high, minimum.

Yes, we know. All hail BJP (and in extension NDA) the last bastion of hope for this beleaguered country.

Irrelevance thy name is alpha17

Yes, even the Hamas claims the same and Taliban started as the same. I think you know the words meaningT

alib -- means student and they were supposed to take Afghanistan down the path of modernity and reform instead a few bigoted, misogynist heads got to the top and you know the rest. The Afghanistan of the Red's was surprisingly more like an American country than how it has been painted as a feudal society.

Hamas, Taliban, other terrorist/militant organisations even ISI, Pakistan always claim to do a lot of things but end up doing completely different ones. Taqiyya masters. they are funded by several forces and are fed with copious amount of arms and ammunitions. they have killed several thousands and have complete autocratic political and military control over a country or geographical area. even JuD portrays itself as a social service organisation but the funds it collects in that name directly goes to terrorist training. deception is not an example.

It is not because few misogynist, bigoted heads got to the top that Taliban is what it is but the nurturing of it by US intelligence agencies to fight against the USSR is the reason for its present power. and FYI there are not ‘few’ misogynists/bigots there.. there are no one else.. well almost.

^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Jingoism to the peak. Playing a game and equating it with real-life.

If you think it is so easy to turn around things, try to stay a day in the conditions of a jawan on the front.

‘equating’? I was saying that as an analogy to my reply to OinkBoink on how past achievements can be used as a motivating factor. you are replying with a literal comparison. I can only facepalm.

Then I have to tell you that the idea of a

Bharat separate from India is flimsy and narrow-minded.

As I said few lines above, it is not a case of ‘separating’ than that of expounding people to consider how much we can be better as a society if we imbibe certain noble values that our ancient society had. It is neither flimsy nor narrow-minded.

So NY Times obviously publishes the truth even after being a media-house. Maybe I should switch to them.

It is just a survey/study.. how much can be spun out of it. they already brought some victorian morals into the story. a single case cannot eclipse a thousand other lies. atleast in US both sides have equal representation in media, the game is balanced. here it is entirely skewed towards the left-liberal establishment.

Yep, reverse can be said too.

I never said ‘I hate everything from the west’ instead I was arguing why it is not a ‘blind’ hate towards anything western but some of our ancient social values are better than the western versions and that let us assimilate the good but identify and reject the bad. but after all that exchanges he just said ‘all I sense is a blind hate for everything western’. that is why I made that statement. you can’t just say reverse also applicable without basis.

The name of the link gives it away. Sandeep web. Maybe for

facebook developments I should tune into Halal-facebook.

It is the name of the author. So the contents of the article which shows how the media lied through it’s teeth just to capitalise on the public outrage doesn’t matter to you as much as the name of the author. good going.

Look you have our views on point, you chaps brought in the Paid-Media, charlatan government and that. Is all cool, we live in a democracy but trying to hammer it down my gullet won't work.

It is not hammering down one’s throat. We are having a discussion here. It is not as if anyone wants a law to be passed requiring all citizens of India to imbibe ancient Indian values or else face strict punishment. Hope you know the difference between exhorting and forcing.

Politics is a dirty game and those who throw dirt tend to have dirt on themselves.

that is just like how criminals say, ‘so what if I’m bad all are bad’, useless and escapist. to clean the dirt there is no other way.

“There's never been a true war that wasn't fought between two sets of people who were certain they were in the right. The really dangerous people believe they are doing whatever they are doing solely and only because it is without question the right thing to do. And that is what makes them dangerous.”-- Neil Gaiman

‘without question’ those kind of people never encourage debates or discussions and are completely repulsive to any idea of reform. there is sufficient discretionary power in our collective brains and mass communication capability to separate a lunatic from a genious.

I'd say these mofos aren't bashed enough.

‘these mofos’?? can you share that list. if all you are capable of is that of bashing without intelligent arguments or civil discussions, they are not going to give any credence or credibility for your cause.

It's no hypothesis, man. Like Hitchen's said "Religion poisons everything."

if we discard all of ancient India’s values, culture, philosphies and spiritual texts in the foreign name of ‘religion’ then we as a nation are the biggest losers and fools.

While you conveniently choose to ignore the accussations of bias against them and Kodnani's conviction.

bias of what? accusations by whom?. I didn’t conveniently chose to ignore anything. the question was that of whether RSS as an organisation was involved in any role during the gujarat riots as alleged by the text quoted by blkrb0t. I clarified that according to the investigations nothing of that sort has been proved and that it is a false and motivated allegation. Kodnani’s conviction only strengthens the confidence on the rule of law in gujarat and that a minister can get convicted by a special court even though it was based on a single muslim witness who claimed to have seen her in the place where riots happened. anyway the judgement has been appealed in the high court. taking further the same yardstick would result in putting few central ministers of the INC behind bars and labelling INC as equal to that of taliban or al-qaeda for the anti-sikh pogrom of 1984. but nothing happens to congress.

I don't think Muslims, women and Dalits are included in this

selfless social service without any discrimination and unity of people of India.

It doesn’t matter what you ‘think’, it is far removed from the truth of what actually is. At no point of time one’s caste or religion is asked in RSS even for becoming a member. End smear campaign against RSS, says former SC judge Thomas

Umm, isn't the media doing what you suggest when it comes to BJP's involvement in the Gujarat riots?

what BJP involvement? gujarat riots has been done to death by the media kangaroo courts. the media has convicted everyone they were paid to character assasinate in their studios but fortunately our country’s laws give only the courts the powers to give judgements.

You can't be serious.

read my reply to alpha17 on the same quote.

The only reason you're pro-India is because you were born here. You rationalize the Hindu-Bharat rhetoric after.

No that is a lame reasoning. You are going into the topic of nationalism which is not the point. I also talked about this in previous post. the discussion was regarding social values and was between pro-indian social values and pro-western social values. there is a difference between pro-india for everything (protectionism) or for individual issues based on merit.

Check out the amount of sex selective abortions and dowry deaths in India, their growth rate is alarming.

did you even read my complete post of what I said of present Indian society vs present western society vs a future Indian society with some traditional values of venerating the learned more than the rich, without a blind zeal for material riches, respect for woman etc. if you had understood that, you would not have replied with this.

What's wrong with that? Marriage is not a sacred institution that should be preserved as it has been in past. And given the amount of domestic violence, marital rape and dowry harassment it would be good to have such a system to be established in India too. Which ancient social and personal values are we talking about?

instead of venerating women, being self-disciplined, raising kids esp boys with good values like respect towards women, self-respect, honesty etc your opinion shows us a short cut path to just end the marriage without solving the challenges that you have listed. the same logic applied elsewhere will be like banning automobiles because of road rage, accidents, drunk driving, pollution etc.

Can you please tell me what these social concepts and philosophies are? If you're talking about practically useful things like data on marriage, rapes etc. that give some understanding of how society is, these things can be scientifically scrutinized. If your philosophies and values can't be scrutinized in any way, there's no rational reason to believe that they are any superior to the other philosophies and values out there.

philosophies and values can be scrutinised with meaningful debates and discussions. data is not possible in all cases. how can one obtain data on an hypothetical situation? how can one quantify how much mentally peaceful and happy the citizens of country are? there can only be a general concensus and that it states that even though technology is advancing at a rapid pace people are not any happier than before. I’m sure you don’t need any data to feel that greed and mad race for money is causing all kinds of stress and moral challenges.

May I know if there was some sort of a subtle implication in this question ? If there was, I don't care if people are happy marrying others who've had pre-marital sex. It's up to them.

Going to the individual level, in many cases (though probably not all), gives you a framework to understand the large scale behaviour of systems. Marriage is a phenomenon between individuals. The traditions/perception of the average values behind them may be spread over broad geographies.

Yes, everything isn't individual. Probabilities and ideas may be applied to groups too. But this still does not justify your argument about the 'Indian marriage system' being superior to the 'western marriage system'. It's not just about how long you stay married but also about how satisfied you feel in that marriage and whether your marriage allows you to grow as an individual. If we go by the analysis of groups, the 'western marriage system' seems to give more respect to individual liberties and growth than 'the Indian marriage system' on an average does (no, I am not supporting one marriage system over another as a whole). What mostly matters in Indian society is that both individuals in a marriage stay together (even if they are unsatisfied). People pressure them into saving their marriage no matter what. Indian marriages, on an average, can be pretty husband centric too. I remember when my grandfather (paternal) died they broke all my grandmother's bangles, removed her bindi and in many families widows used to wear white sarees for the rest of their lives. You might argue that India has changed. But the residues of these beliefs still remain. On a side note, the use of horoscopes and astrology to select mates is just ridiculous.

oh my god. you keep on talking talking about what is happening now and how people are thinking now. read my subsequent replies.

and btw you still didn’t answer which has more probability.

I can pull out tons of articles from places on why there are significant problems in the 'Indian marriage system' and in Indian marriages.

Once again, in India several people bear abuse from their spouse but hesitate to separate because of what society might think. Divorce is still looked down upon by many people.

The reference I gave was to your post stating that not all western marriages are contractual and implying it as some personal opinion of mohan bhagawat. now you are changing goal posts by talking about a comparison. btw you are STILL talking about the Indian society and system of NOW.

What are these social and personal values ? I can't talk for everyone but I don't 'blindly ape' anyone.

the ‘you’ I used was just for missing the point and does not carry till ‘blindly aping the west’. see my new thread.

I guess our feelings towards each other are mutual on this one.

see my reply to alpha17.

Your article sucks in my opinion. I have several problems with it. And I still think the RSS chief speaks a lot of crap.

Yes, you can have your own opinions and thoughts. But that article is not just about opinions and thoughts but also that of facts. btw please give a list of crap things RSS chief talked about. and why the witch hunting on RSS chief alone when same level of scrutiny is not even applied on the elected government whose MPs get paid by the tax payer.

Please stop implying, if you are in a subtle manner, that we have any interest in the 'american way of life'. And we don't accept everything new as good. Just as the Americans use the ideas of people from various nationalities, we must too if they are beneficial.

oh for the love of god, I said how ‘american way of life’ also includes stuff from all others just like that we also use good stuff all others like ‘shorts’ which blkrb0t was making fun of because mohan bhagawat wears it. *sigh*

Again, please tell us what these values and philosophies are. The core principles of all of science can be summarized in a post but you can't seem to do that with your Indian/Hindu nationalist philosophy. That's pretty odd.

I still don't get why you would be a Hindu nationalist if you were objective. What about Hindu tenets is objectively better than everything else out there (unless you just call all the right stuff Hindu philosophy)? Of course, when you can't even state what your core principles are (and you just brush it aside by asserting that it's my ignorance and that it's too vast a topic which is ridiculous as, as stated before, even the fundamental principles of all of science can be summarized in a post), you can support all sorts of vague ideas/personal opinions under the garb of Hindu/Indian philosophy.

No. core principles of all of science cannot be summarised in a post. that would be a horrible injustice to science or that you don’t know much science. For the same reason of my inability to do justice to the concept I suggested a book ‘being different’ by rajiv malhotra which talks about this contrast.
And by your logic the only objective and rational person is a brain dead person. definitely I will state again that it is your ignorance to be oblivious to the hindu scriptural tenets and social values. If you are not a hindu then that is understandable, in that case you can try the following sources Hindu Wisdom and Agniveer - Self-Help | Motivation | Spiritualism | Rationalism | Behavioral Repatterning | Vedas | Hinduism | Anti-Casteism | Women Rights

Also, most importantly, as Orija stated above, the only reason you're pro-India is because you were born here. You rationalize the Hindu-Bharat rhetoric (and might I add all the Hindu/Indian philosophy stuff) after. If you were born in a Muslim family, you'd be saying similar stuff about Islamic culture. If you were born in Pakistan you'd be talking about how Pakistani philosophy is 'objectively and rationally right.'

See my reply to Orija. you probably don’t know anything significant about any religion except for movie rhetorics or ritual customs.

You're making a case for all that's wrong with western society as a whole (without talking at all about what's right with it) and all that's right with Indian society as a whole (without talking at all about what's wrong with it). Well, if you pick up all that's right with both societies, why call that Indian/Hindu philosophy instead of 'The Grand Unified Societal Philosophy' or something ?

Hindu fascism. Urgh.

No. I’m picking up all that is wrong with both societies and suggestions on possible reforms. The Hindu Philosophies and thinking are well expounded in the Vedas, upanishads and epics like Ramayana Mahabharata, more specifically the Bhagavad Gita. So you neither need to redefine what constitutes Hindu philosophy nor have a fear that all sorts of vague and personal opinions will get under the term.

‘Fascism’ uh?? I hope you looked up what it means lol

Yes, but all this happens only in India and not in Bharat. *sarcasm intended*

'not' --> 'will not'. well, yes. *no sarcasm intended*



_

 

[OinkBoink]

I'd just like to clarify one thing. The thing about science.

It would be an injustice to say that the principles of science can be expounded in a post. But the core principles i.e. the fundamental ideas that can give you an inkling of what science is about can be summarised. That's all I wanted from you when you were talking about Hindu philosophy. Whether the scientific method can be used to answer all questions is another topic altogether. A topic that can even delve down to semantics about what the word 'science' entails.

Something like this :
From Wiki:

1.) Define a question
2.) Gather information and resources (observe)
3.) Form an explanatory hypothesis
4.) Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
5.) Analyze the data
6.) Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7.) Publish results
8.) Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

Or this:

Other than that, I see this discussion as being a bit redundant and will post at my leisure, if at all.

 

[ALPHA17]

@DigitalDude here you go.

Enjoy the music, if you can. Okay, thanks. BYE!

 

[Orija]

DigitalDudeYou should use the term ancient Hindu values rather than ancient Indian values. And, carrying a romanticized view of Indian subcontinent during antiquity won't get you anywhere. Women don't need to be venerated or put on a pedestal, all they ask for is to be treated as equals. The Hindu zealots who hold to such views go about rioting because an eminent painter depicted Bharat Mata and a bunch of other Hindu goddesses with their tits out. This kind of thought leads people to believe that they have lost honor by a few kilos if a women in their family gets either laid or raped. You try to sugarcoat Hinduism's rather sexist idealogy but that doesn't change the fact that such archaic notions do not have a place in a modern society.

"instead of venerating women, being self-disciplined, raising kids esp boys with good values like respect towards women, self-respect, honesty etc your opinion shows us a short cut path to just end the marriage without solving the challenges that you have listed. the same logic applied elsewhere will be like banning automobiles because of road rage, accidents, drunk driving, pollution etc."

It's not a shortcut, it's a necessary step required for the emancipation of women in India.

 

[blkrb0t]

Damn, this isn't finished yet. I went on a trip for a few days, traveled by general unreserved compartment in the train for a few days and started discussion along these lines. Most of them think the girls are responsible for the rapes happening to them and they somehow lure the boy to rape her. It was a pity to explain them how this logic defies sane behaviour. But then again they started again about Bharatiya Sanskaar and how women must stick to it, bought this thread to memory then. I wonder which English Media these people follow considering they don't know it in the first place.