Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote needed)

[Compiler]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

:clap:Going great happy to see 1/15 vote for congress. :clap:
"Ye public hai sab janti hai"

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

I think supporting Anna blindly is the height of mindless Indian slavishness.

Most people seem to think that he is fighting against corruption when he is not. In my opinion all he has been doing is fighting against the govt, but also more importantly against our chosen model of govt (democracy) and the law as well. I don't think he is in favor or against some party, he is against democracy as a whole.

In any case, he never did seem to have any faith in democracy as a form of govt. His ideas show his bias towards centralizing a massive amount of power into small groups of people which is a trait prevalent in dictatorships. He is obsessive about what he demands. Look at what he has been doing? He has his views of how the Lokpal bill should be and he wants to impose it on the govt and the people in a totally undemocratic fashion. Does the opinion of other informed and intelligent people matter to him, I don't think so. He is hellbent on getting his version of the bill passed and he constantly threatens and extorts the govt for it. Still it is alright to fight the govt if he thinks the govt is doing wrong. But whats worse is that he has no respect for the law either. In the past, our freedom fighters fought the govt (British), but most of them still respected the law as it stood. They respectfully submitted to the law and they rarely used arrests an opportunity to blackmail and arm twist the govt. Regardless of who is running the govt, abiding by the law is a duty of the citizen. He has done many things that warrant legal action. He talks about the corruption of politicians and how they keep themselves above the law, but does he himself sincerely submit to the law? No, he chooses to shield himself with the power of the people. Sacrifice is part and parcel of a non violent protest, but he definitely does not seem to believe in that.

If he really wanted to fight against corruption, he would have seen the corruption in and around him and within the people. Why doesn't he realize that people that surround him and support him also indulge in corruption? Why is he blind to the fact that the supporters around him use his so called anti-corruption movement for harassing and extortion. Today he and his favored supporters cannot be touched by the law regardless of whatever they do. Isn't that also abuse of power?

It would be great if you give at least one name we can trust on.

Why is it that every one in this country looks for someone else that they can trust on? If we instead concentrate on making themselves someone others can trust on, then there would be plenty of people that can be trusted to do the right thing. As mature and educated adults we are equipped enough to choose between right and wrong and we are only as honest or dishonest as we choose to be. No one is perfect and there are other factors influencing our honesty, but at the very least we should try to be as honest as possible. Passing a bill and using that for prosecuting a few politicians is not the solution to corruption and neither is blindly following someone else claiming to be fighting against corruption while we ourselves indulge in corruption every day in various ways.

 

[Decan]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

Anna is just the mask, he is not the one devising the campaigns and protests. Please try to understand where the people supporting him come from. I wonder how many people supporting Team Anna also support some of their other not so aggressively publicized demands of:

1. Rolling back the open market policies and going back to the licence permit raj regime of the past (which in fact is the main intent of this bill in its present format), which in reality has been proven to breed more corruption at every level than what we have today.

2. Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir.

3. Scrapping AFSPA and exposing our Army to many court cases and hence hindering them from performing their duty, among others.

Please remember we were almost a bankrupt country following the polices we did for so many years after independence, we had worse social and economic indicators than even Pakistan and Bangladesh. We are now on the verge of being, if not already there, the third largest economy in the world. Regardless of the general cynicism, everybody will agree there has been vast improvements in our standards of living across the board in the last 20 years. We don't want to go back to those days. Of course, status quo is not the answer, tremendous improvements need to be done, but Team Anna's path will only lead to misery and anarchy for everybody and the country and its citizens.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

The kids at Bangalore who were at the Freedom Park did their part. How can any of us question their motives and pass judgement? People complain when the public doesn't do anything and then when they actually do something, they complain that it wasn't done right.

I agree with most of what you said, but I don't agree with the above. Going somewhere and flaunting their support for Anna Hazare is in no way equivalent to fighting corruption. I have seen that sort 'corruption fighting' at my office as well and I know that its a form of self appeasement for their own guilty conscience. Its hypocrisy to the core. These guy's got a special batch of t-shirts made with Anna Hazare's face on the front and some anti-corruption slogan on the back, but you know what, every year they find every possible means to skimp on taxes. They produce fake medical bills to avail tax exemption on medical reimbursement. They produce rent receipts showing they pay 15k rent each month even when they own the house they live in. They pay bribes to get things done even when a more honest route is available. They indulge in corruption every day and out of their own free will. And yet like most Anna supporters they boast that they are doing their part in fighting corruption.

 

[dennis_nail]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

:clap:Going great happy to see 1/15 vote for congress. :clap:

"Ye public hai sab janti hai"

On TE may be, but our poor aam junta is so gullible that they can be fooled for even a Bapu note or other goodies. I have seen that happen in a relatively literate state like Goa.

 

[asingh]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

I do agree on some points but its not entirely true.

At least anna has given us a hope .

People started taking interest in voting . Things will definitely change after the recent campaigns by team anna.

"he is still a lot worse than the entire lot of politicians."

I m not sure over What made you think like this. It would be great if you give at least one name we can trust on.

I think its a height of Pessimism.

I don't think it has to do with age but the willingness to change things.

Before anna how many youth came forward?

It was anna who made us arguing in this thread.

He has lighten up the candle now its our job to keep it that way.

No, it is not height of pessimism. Lord Nemesis, has given you the truth about India flat on the face. That is why it hurts the most. You mention, taking interest in voting -- what the heck. Everyone knows this is a democracy, so where does the interest come in from. It is not some hobby or fun activity. What Anna has given us is zilch. Just fodder for the media houses and more leverage for political parties to mud-sling crap at each other officially. Plus most of the people at the rally A. Did not know what they were supporting, B. Had a vague-hawk eye idea only C. Were doing stupid things like leering at girls and bike stunts (cops could do jack). D. Having a picnic. I found Anna's tactics stupid and crave for media. Talking with Aamir Khan, breaking his fast via taking water from a Muslim and so called "low caste" girl. What the heck. Nuts in the head he is. And so are his supports including mental cop Kiran Bedi.

you just spoke my mind.none of the parties are saints , but still cant we at least choose the lesser evil

Not really. We should not choose lesser of an evil.

 

[uziel]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

I guess corruption is a human problem.... its nothing to do with a political party or any other group. Bringing Anna or BJP to power will not solve this issue. You bring the brightest, most honest and efficient person to power and you still cannot guarantee all will be well after he assumes power.

 

[Compiler]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

I think supporting Anna blindly is the height of mindless Indian slavishness.

Most people seem to think that he is fighting against corruption when he is not. In my opinion all he has been doing is fighting against the govt, but also more importantly against our chosen model of govt (democracy) and the law as well. I don't think he is in favor or against some party, he is against democracy as a whole.

In any case, he never did seem to have any faith in democracy as a form of govt. His ideas show his bias towards centralizing a massive amount of power into small groups of people which is a trait prevalent in dictatorships. He is obsessive about what he demands. Look at what he has been doing? He has his views of how the Lokpal bill should be and he wants to impose it on the govt and the people in a totally undemocratic fashion. Does the opinion of other informed and intelligent people matter to him, I don't think so. He is hellbent on getting his version of the bill passed and he constantly threatens and extorts the govt for it. Still it is alright to fight the govt if he thinks the govt is doing wrong. But whats worse is that he has no respect for the law either. In the past, our freedom fighters fought the govt (British), but most of them still respected the law as it stood. They respectfully submitted to the law and they rarely used arrests an opportunity to blackmail and arm twist the govt. Regardless of who is running the govt, abiding by the law is a duty of the citizen. He has done many things that warrant legal action. He talks about the corruption of politicians and how they keep themselves above the law, but does he himself sincerely submit to the law? No, he chooses to shield himself with the power of the people. Sacrifice is part and parcel of a non violent protest, but he definitely does not seem to believe in that.

If he really wanted to fight against corruption, he would have seen the corruption in and around him and within the people. Why doesn't he realize that people that surround him and support him also indulge in corruption? Why is he blind to the fact that the supporters around him use his so called anti-corruption movement for harassing and extortion. Today he and his favored supporters cannot be touched by the law regardless of whatever they do. Isn't that also abuse of power?

Why is it that every one in this country looks for someone else that they can trust on? If we instead concentrate on making themselves someone others can trust on, then there would be plenty of people that can be trusted to do the right thing. As mature and educated adults we are equipped enough to choose between right and wrong and we are only as honest or dishonest as we choose to be. No one is perfect and there are other factors influencing our honesty, but at the very least we should try to be as honest as possible. Passing a bill and using that for prosecuting a few politicians is not the solution to corruption and neither is blindly following someone else claiming to be fighting against corruption while we ourselves indulge in corruption every day in various ways.

Well it was my personal view but if you can write 20-30 lines against anna .You will need to write a novel on our corrupt politicians.

I asked a single name but instead what you said the same thing the anna is stressing in every campaign.

If spending more than 40 years for passing the janlokpal is what you call "democratic" then who the hell need it.

Please dont take it personally.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

All political parties in our country are corrupt and while Anna himself may not be corrupt in the exact same fashion, he is still a lot worse than the entire lot of politicians. The common people are no saints either and they are all corrupt in their own fashion.

Can you tell us why you think he is still a lot worse ? I've never really understood on what basis you oppose him and would like you to go into that.

I think supporting Anna blindly is the height of mindless Indian slavishness.

Most people seem to think that he is fighting against corruption when he is not. In my opinion all he has been doing is fighting against the govt, but also more importantly against our chosen model of govt (democracy) and the law as well. I don't think he is in favor or against some party, he is against democracy as a whole.

Ok, here we have part of the answer. You think he has fascist tendencies but i think this take is a bit overblown, its like saying the govt is a dictatorship because they jailed him. From what i could tell he seems to want to use the system, so far. If he does not get what he wants then he wants to protest. The bigger question AH raises is do we have suitable avenues that allow grievances to be addressed. The system is not as responsive or as acoountable as we would prefer.

In any case, he never did seem to have any faith in democracy as a form of govt. His ideas show his bias towards centralizing a massive amount of power into small groups of people which is a trait prevalent in dictatorships. He is obsessive about what he demands. Look at what he has been doing? He has his views of how the Lokpal bill should be and he wants to impose it on the govt and the people in a totally undemocratic fashion.

The idea is to have a body that is empowered and at the same time independent from govt. It does not have to be some monolothic body so long as it can do its work without being interfered with. I know that bit is tricky but loosely speaking this is the general idea.

Does the opinion of other informed and intelligent people matter to him, I don't think so. He is hellbent on getting his version of the bill passed and he constantly threatens and extorts the govt for it.

Yes it does, if you notice he relaxed on his deamands and came up with three points that any bill passed should have. That was a pretty big come down if you ask me. He realised he got govt to wake up and address the bill. So no he is not hellbent on his version any longer. I've learnt to see his actions as just pressure tactics rather than objectives. The govt is also playing the same game of using pressure tactics. Don't let these tactics confuse over the overall objectives. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Still it is alright to fight the govt if he thinks the govt is doing wrong. But whats worse is that he has no respect for the law either.

This was the initial impression but it was a reaction to the govts handling of the affair which in truth was terrible. They could have defused the situation many times but keep screwing it up.

In the past, our freedom fighters fought the govt (British), but most of them still respected the law as it stood. They respectfully submitted to the law and they rarely used arrests an opportunity to blackmail and arm twist the govt. Regardless of who is running the govt, abiding by the law is a duty of the citizen. He has done many things that warrant legal action. He talks about the corruption of politicians and how they keep themselves above the law, but does he himself sincerely submit to the law? No, he chooses to shield himself with the power of the people. Sacrifice is part and parcel of a non violent protest, but he definitely does not seem to believe in that.

Was there any untoward violence in this movement ? none, so he's not a troublemaker except to those in power hyeah:

I don't see this movement as unique from a world perspective, its a reaction to food inflation which has manifested in different ways around the world.

--- Updated Post - Automerged ---

Anna is just the mask, he is not the one devising the campaigns and protests. Please try to understand where the people supporting him come from. I wonder how many people supporting Team Anna also support some of their other not so aggressively publicized demands of:

Post them here and lets get into them one by one

1. Rolling back the open market policies and going back to the licence permit raj regime of the past (which in fact is the main intent of this bill in its present format), which in reality has been proven to breed more corruption at every level than what we have today.

Think of it as scaling up the lokayukta to a country wide level. There are plenty of ombudsmen in the UK, yet the UK isn't a license Raj. That country also nearly went bankrupt and required a Maggie to clean it up. We both followed ideas that were in vogue at LSE & Cambridge after independence, we went bankrupt before reversing course unlike the Brits.

So its not necessary that his movement is going to reverse what we've achieved since liberalisation. It otoh might rejuvenate the stagnant democracy that we have where the nexus between govt & coroporates is perhaps too strong for the publics liking.

2. Holding a plebiscite in Kashmir.
3. Scrapping AFSPA and exposing our Army to many court cases and hence hindering them from performing their duty, among others.

I can sympathise with the reasons for the above 2 but do not see them happening on a realistic level. Not until we have watertight gurantees from our neightbour that they won't try to mess with it.

Please remember we were almost a bankrupt country following the polices we did for so many years after independence, we had worse social and economic indicators than even Pakistan and Bangladesh. We are now on the verge of being, if not already there, the third largest economy in the world. Regardless of the general cynicism, everybody will agree there has been vast improvements in our standards of living across the board in the last 20 years. We don't want to go back to those days. Of course, status quo is not the answer, tremendous improvements need to be done, but Team Anna's path will only lead to misery and anarchy for everybody and the country and its citizens.

We are the eleventh largest economy in the world. PPP dollars are not the same as nominal dollars and won't buy you real dollars.

Otherwise yes, we have made tremendous strides, the problem is we stopped reforming, because powerful vested interests did not want it to go further.

 

[NinByChoice]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

Can you tell us why you think he is still a lot worse ? I've never really understood on what basis you oppose him and would like you to go into that.

Can you tell us why you would like to go into that? I've never really understood on what basis would you like to go into that?

Ok, here we have part of the answer. You think he has fascist tendencies but i think this take is a bit overblown, its like saying the govt is a dictatorship because they jailed him. From what i could tell he seems to want to use the system, so far. If he does not get what he wants then he wants to protest. The bigger question AH raises is do we have suitable avenues that allow grievances to be addressed. The system is not as responsive or as acoountable as we would prefer.

The system is democracy. He doesnt want to use that.

The idea is to have a body that is empowered and at the same time independent from govt. It does not have to be some monolothic body so long as it can do its work without being interfered with. I know that bit is tricky but loosely speaking this is the general idea.

They already exist and are called the judiciary and police.

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Deforestation is a totally different topic. We can discuss this in another thread if you want.

This was the initial impression but it was a reaction to the govts handling of the affair which in truth was terrible.

Totally agreed. They should have AH locked up in jail and dispersed the protests, using force if necessary. Shouldnt have negotiated either.

I don't see this movement as unique from a world perspective, its a reaction to food inflation which has manifested in different ways around the world.

Why do you see this movement as a reaction to food inflation? AH gave the impression this was against corruption.

 

[dexBG]

Also personal thank you for this post.. Very well said.

(begun the clone war has)

 

[Decan]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

It is not addressed to me of course, but I will try to give my point of view on some of the points. My points are within quotes.

Can you tell us why you think he is still a lot worse ? I've never really understood on what basis you oppose him and would like you to go into that.

"I don't oppose the person as such, I oppose the movement, the demands, and people composing the team in what they stand for in their worldview. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are as such evil. I do understand that they also care for the people of our country and want to do their bit, just that I think their methods have been proven wrong and will lead us to more misery."
The idea is to have a body that is empowered and at the same time independent from govt. It does not have to be some monolothic body so long as it can do its work without being interfered with. I know that bit is tricky but loosely speaking this is the general idea.

"It has been seen everywhere around the world, and especially in our country, the more people you have policing the system, the more corruption and not less. Nobody indulges in corruption thinking that he will be caught. Why not have a system that is transparent and doesn't requiring policing as such. Go back to the 80s, how easy was it to get a telephone line or even a scooter or a car without paying something "extra." That was because few people controlled the supply using licenses and other means. Once that changed the corruption in these almost stopped instantly. This is of course just an example, different methods apply for different problems. In short, there should be transparency and no arbitrariness in decision making and certainly not more people hindering decision making which in turn makes the system totally inefficient and in the end crumbles as it did in the late 80s and early 90s."

Yes it does, if you notice he relaxed on his deamands and came up with three points that any bill passed should have. That was a pretty big come down if you ask me. He realised he got govt to wake up and address the bill. So no he is not hellbent on his version any longer. I've learnt to see his actions as just pressure tactics rather than objectives. The govt is also playing the same game of using pressure tactics. Don't let these tactics confuse over the overall objectives. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

"The important thing to understand is that the Team understood after meeting people across the political spectrum that they will not get what they are asking for, in the form they were asking for as it is very dangerous for the country and they agreed for a token or symbolic victory in the hopes of strengthening their movement and sustaining themselves for another day."

This was the initial impression but it was a reaction to the govts handling of the affair which in truth was terrible. They could have defused the situation many times but keep screwing it up.

"Of course, it was very poorly handled."

 

[Decan]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

Adding a few more points on your reply to my quote.

Think of it as scaling up the lokayukta to a country wide level. There are plenty of ombudsmen in the UK, yet the UK isn't a license Raj. That country also nearly went bankrupt and required a Maggie to clean it up. We both followed ideas that were in vogue at LSE & Cambridge after independence, we went bankrupt before reversing course unlike the Brits.

"It is not just the ombudsmen, the bill in its original form had provisions very detrimental to development. For eg., Medha Patkar (one of the members) said in an interview if I do not agree with a planned dam or developmental project I can question the deployment of resources and get the project to stall using the provisions in the bill. Of course, the bill that will finally be passed will be devoid of such provisions as it should."

So its not necessary that his movement is going to reverse what we've achieved since liberalisation. It otoh might rejuvenate the stagnant democracy that we have where the nexus between govt & coroporates is perhaps too strong for the publics liking.

"It might not reverse as yet, but it will definitely strengthen people who want it reversed, the likes of Kejriwal, Prashant Bhushan, Medha Patkar, etc. In one of the interviews Kejriwal openly admitted all of them were ideologically left of center."

I can sympathise with the reasons for the above 2 but do not see them happening on a realistic level. Not until we have watertight gurantees from our neightbour that they won't try to mess with it.

"Again, even I don't expect anything as such happening in reality its just strengthening people who support it."

We are the eleventh largest economy in the world. PPP dollars are not the same as nominal dollars and won't buy you real dollars.

Otherwise yes, we have made tremendous strides, the problem is we stopped reforming, because powerful vested interests did not want it to go further.

"Totally agree, and also strongly agree with you in the sense we need more and not less liberalization and transparency in the system."

 

[chiron]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

I've learnt to see his actions as just pressure tactics rather than objectives. The govt is also playing the same game of using pressure tactics. Don't let these tactics confuse over the overall objectives. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

Actually, I think that is where the fundamental failure with this campaign is; if its ok to play the same game the politicians are playing then how can we ascribe any greater legitimacy to his cause? He has got certain demands and is willing to use pressure tactics but the demands aren't the real demands? Does anyone know what the "real" demands are, can anyone predict how this will play out, who will be the winners and who will become the scapegoats? I guess these were actually points raised by detractors when the campaign started but most(including me) felt that since this is a big issue and someone is making us sit up and take notice the those means can still be acceptable.

However, the idea of freeing ourselves from corruption is same as the idea of being straightforward, simple and not taking undue advantage of things, and hence using whatever means necessary to achieve it just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[vivek.krishnan]

TBH, to me it looks as if the Congress is anti-Anna, and not the other way around.

Also, I am not a big fan of Congree, IMO they started this communalism BS and then 'upgraded' to the secular BS.

 

[rishabh.asthana]

i will continue voting for INC...they may be corrupt but at least they dont support communism and hatred...BJP is a party who thrived on Hinduism and that's the reason i hate them the most...

 

[Superbad]

i will continue voting for INC...they may be corrupt but at least they dont support communism and hatred...BJP is a party who thrived on Hinduism and that's the reason i hate them the most...

are you digvijay singh ?

 

[vivek.krishnan]

i will continue voting for INC...they may be corrupt but at least they dont support communism and hatred...BJP is a party who thrived on Hinduism and that's the reason i hate them the most...

Hogwash. not wanting to stray away from the thread, but actually INC was the cause of all this. Now that they have moved on is a different thing, but they were the originals.

Also IMHO, i actually dont care about the party, but after seeing the success stories of Gujrat, and seeing the failure of Maharashtra, I am not in favour of INC. Oh, and Sharad pawar is an ally of INC, right? Then no vote for INC, hands down.

 

[mjumrani]

TBH, to me it looks as if the Congress is anti-Anna, and not the other way around.

Also, I am not a big fan of Congree, IMO they started this communalism BS and then 'upgraded' to the secular BS.

How do you know? Have you met Anna by any chance and talked to him about it?

Isn't the first rule of getting information from the news is not to believe every damn thing you read/see...

BJP is communist and Hindu centric no doubt. Would be really bad for this country. Congress is still the lesser of the 2 evils but evil nonetheless.

And no matter what these 2 parties will always have more power than any other, even in a coalition.

Another point, is freaking Anna an idiot? He wants to remove Congress. Sure do that, then BJP comes to power and they will rip this secular country apart. Then he says remove BJP. Do that and Congress comes to power. Is he a kid or what?! mujhe chahiye nahi to main marunga attitude. Just another person who thinks he is more intelligent than the constitutional system of this sovereign nation. Many have come many will go as usual.

I'm pretty sure in case anything happens to him, 95% of his supporters will crawl back from the hole they came from, ie, their homes and lives, and forget about it in a month or 2 like it always happens.

Again, I don't support corruption but I feel his tactics are no less than what a thug would do, holding a nation hostage and what not, be it non violent. This country is not exactly his playground.

If you don't like a party, don't vote (I do not know if Indian Elections give an option to vote but to none of the parties) but for christ sake just don't go ahead and bring a party like BJP to power.

PS: there should be another option in the pole saying: No parties & no Anna

And seriously, if someone comes and says you support corruption because you don't support Anna is another moron (personal opinion ofcourse). Why? Because its like BJP coming and saying if you don't support us you don't support Hindus (you can have tons of examples like that). Everything isn't black or white in the real world, which one would notice if they wake up for once. There is more grey than all the colours combined.

If you really want do something about corruption, do it yourself and don't keep shouting I Support Anna and what not and appease your conscience. That is not called being against corruption this is called supporting a man. That's it. Look at you trying to fire a gun when its on someone's shoulder, how convenient. Pathetic.

High time you wake up and realize what happens in the real world.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get fired on Left, Right and Centre. It's my personal opinion and not changing anytime soon.

 

[blr_p]

Re: Team anna's new campaign Ban Congress (Your vote neeeded)

Actually, I think that is where the fundamental failure with this campaign is; if its ok to play the same game the politicians are playing then how can we ascribe any greater legitimacy to his cause?

Sure, thats what got me at first, you see the dirty tricks being played. Trying to show AH was corrupt was a dirty trick that blew up spectacularly. that is why you got a strident AH pushing his agenda through. Of course you only see how he reacts but do not see the conditions that caused this behaviour. This is why i shifted my attention to the objectives and ignored the tactics which were questionable from both sides.

He has got certain demands and is willing to use pressure tactics but the demands aren't the real demands? Does anyone know what the "real" demands are, can anyone predict how this will play out, who will be the winners and who will become the scapegoats? I guess these were actually points raised by detractors when the campaign started but most(including me) felt that since this is a big issue and someone is making us sit up and take notice the those means can still be acceptable.

The 'real demands' from what i've seen are an institution that can tackle corruption or at lease provide some relief from it to those who are targeted by it. So this means some sort of institution that isn't present currently in the country, it is in some states though. CM's in two states have been toppled already as a result of this movement. Is this a positive development or not ?

If all goes to plan, the idea is the people are the winners and those perpetuating corruption are the losers. This isn't going to be perfect, but its a start.

However, the idea of freeing ourselves from corruption is same as the idea of being straightforward, simple and not taking undue advantage of things, and hence using whatever means necessary to achieve it just doesn't sit well with me.

I wouldn't characterise this movement as 'using any means necessary' thats what terrorists resort to

It was certainly strident and one that refused to back down. I've come to understand the reason for these tactics as a lack of effective mechanisms to address issues on a general level. They would not have had to push as hard otherwise. In the end how much do they really expect to achieve, AH himself said if he got 60% of what he asked for that would already be a lot. I think if he even gets 10% that would be an improvement over the status quo. Hopefully it serves as a platform to get more in the future.

And if we are to move from position 87 in the worlds transparency index to the top 20 then there is a lot of work to be done. If this is a fight for transparency then i'm all for it. The more transparent the system becomes the less the need for agitations like this because then the facts are all out there for everyone to see. What about governance ? we certainly need better governance. These i would call or at least expect as by products of this movement, more transparency & better governance. If AH delivers on these two then it would certainly be a victory for our system.

Govt on its own will not improve itself, it will only do what is politically expedient and what wins votes and keeps them in office. IOW they look out for party's interest first and everything else comes second.

In a nutshell this movement came about because people aren't happy with the way govt works and thats normal, we've certainly got lots of scope for improvement. If you ask me the question is why did it take so long to rise up and demand it. The only reason govt or rather muncipalities talk about better governance is because of world bank loans that stipulate it as one of the conditions. You cannot maintain investment which creates growth without tackling governance.

One of LN's objections goes like this, we are inherently corrupt so how can we expect our govt to be any different. There are a number of ways to counter this.
First, I find this defeatist, its saying nothing will change which i don't think is true. We might be corrupt but elected officials are expected to be of a higher std because they are in a position to rule over us. Thjis is where accontablilty comes in. How accountable are they presently.

Second, what purpose does a guard dog have, why have guard dogs, they serve a purpose. Nobody disputes this they are territorial and watch over the house. This at the simplest level is what an obudsman does. The existing mechanisms in place are inadequate and are all subject to either political oversight or are ineffective. Either they are independent and can only offer recommendations or they are empowered but not independent. This is the reason why not a single elected official have ever been convicted in this country for anything. They might have chargesheets galore but convictions forget it. 2G, CWG any other scam, who is going to be convicted over those ? nobody because there is no evidence, it was disposed off long ago. All we get is perps in jail as under trials to be acquitted when the time comes. On reading through the house's transcripts was made aware that about 27 representaitves lost their position over the years as a result of misbehaviour but that is still not the same as being brought to justice.

Third, there is no whistleblower protection in this country that is worth anything. If you spill the beans you can expect to be either roughed up or worse, be elliminated. So this is why we get leaks that fan suspiscion but are never adequate to do anything more. You cannot convict anybody on the basis of these leaks. There has to be evidence and the case has to be clinching not circumstantial.

Finally, look at the developed countries and how often do we hear about graft over there. It happens as the media there is very free to report, just look at the Murdoch case. We don't really have as independent a media as they do. Govt places ads in all papers and this is a signficant source of income, should a newspaper choose not to tow the govts line for whatever reason it faces the risk of loss of the biggest ad customer of them all. So this leads to a rather lame & tame media that does whatever adminstration in power's bidding. Not a good position for the fourth estate to be in. The tv news channels seem to be a little more free in this regard but its not as competitive as it could be.

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Can you tell us why you think he is still a lot worse ? I've never really understood on what basis you oppose him and would like you to go into that.

"I don't oppose the person as such, I oppose the movement, the demands, and people composing the team in what they stand for in their worldview. Don't get me wrong, I don't think they are as such evil. I do understand that they also care for the people of our country and want to do their bit, just that I think their methods have been proven wrong and will lead us to more misery."

I think your concentrating more on the tactics here than the objectives. If the methods are wrong then why did govt pass a unanimous 'sense of the house' motion ? they could have just refused to do so. So that tells me at some point they realised the demands were legitimate. That it took a man to make threats of fasting to death only goes to show how unresponsive our govt can be. He was not fasting for some ulterior purpose all he was asking for was better accountability. Why should it take hunger strikes to ask for something as basic as that.

Yes, the govt did listen and they had a number of meetings but in the end the govt just refused to take it any further which is what precipitated the movement. There should have been better mechanisms in place to resolve those differences as it was handled in a very high handed manner. This is not how things should be done in a free country.

It has been seen everywhere around the world, and especially in our country, the more people you have policing the system, the more corruption and not less. Nobody indulges in corruption thinking that he will be caught. Why not have a system that is transparent and doesn't requiring policing as such. Go back to the 80s, how easy was it to get a telephone line or even a scooter or a car without paying something "extra." That was because few people controlled the supply using licenses and other means. Once that changed the corruption in these almost stopped instantly. This is of course just an example, different methods apply for different problems. In short, there should be transparency and no arbitrariness in decision making and certainly not more people hindering decision making which in turn makes the system totally inefficient and in the end crumbles as it did in the late 80s and early 90s."

The problem at the moment is there is no policing, nobody ever gets caught. In such a regime there is no penalty for misbehaviour. This movement is an attempt to address that shortcoming. So i don't see it as more people policing the system but rather empowering people to begin policing the system

The important thing to understand is that the Team understood after meeting people across the political spectrum that they will not get what they are asking for, in the form they were asking for as it is very dangerous for the country and they agreed for a token or symbolic victory in the hopes of strengthening their movement and sustaining themselves for another day."

And they pulled back which in my books redeems them from earlier actions. They let the system do its work.

"It is not just the ombudsmen, the bill in its original form had provisions very detrimental to development. For eg., Medha Patkar (one of the members) said in an interview if I do not agree with a planned dam or developmental project I can question the deployment of resources and get the project to stall using the provisions in the bill. Of course, the bill that will finally be passed will be devoid of such provisions as it should."

The bill won't survive in its original form. The climbdown to the three points is a concession in that regard. There is not going to be some parallel unaccountable system being created here. That would actually compound the problem.

"It might not reverse as yet, but it will definitely strengthen people who want it reversed, the likes of Kejriwal, Prashant Bhushan, Medha Patkar, etc. In one of the interviews Kejriwal openly admitted all of them were ideologically left of center."

Congress is idealogically left of center, they create massive subsisdy schemes whose main purpose is to win elections. One would have thought they would have been more open. But they have their NAC ie idealogically annointed and that is the only body that is supposed to make bills. Why can't more orgs get into the game ? So the issue here is the cost of entry is very high for civil society to play a role in governance. The day when you only voted once every five years and forget about it till the next election cycle is hopefully over.

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Yay, i get to give Raghu another beating hyeah:

Can you tell us why you would like to go into that? I've never really understood on what basis would you like to go into that?

i asked first :tongue:

The system is democracy. He doesnt want to use that.

Oh, whats he doing now then ? why is he letting this standing commitee do its work instead of PROPERLY gheraoing the buggers.

This is where it all goes down

Committee on Personnel, Public Grievances, Law and Justice

You see any reports or any minutes of meetings they have there ? nothing, its all secret. We get a 10 page report at the end of this exercise nothing more.

On another point can you give me your assessment on this dude's shirt ? not sure what to make of it :huh:

They already exist and are called the judiciary and police.

No elected representative ever gets convicted. So something is missing here, they tell me its called 'evidence'. Wonder why.

But wait, there is an alternative explanation, because nobody is caught, therefore no crimes were committed in which case we have always had an upstanding govt and indians in general must have very vivid imaginations. I've faced considerable resistance whenever i've mentioned this for some reason

Deforestation is a totally different topic. We can discuss this in another thread if you want.

Was speaking metaphorically.

Totally agreed. They should have AH locked up in jail and dispersed the protests, using force if necessary. Shouldnt have negotiated either.

If you do that the next movement that starts up might not have a so called gandhian behind it, it might have somebody a bit less savoury. If you clamp down again the next movement will be a violent one. What you are suggesting would bring about another emergency some time in the future. How familiar are you with that dark period in our country's history.

Kashmir, some states in the NE are already police states, the short defintion of that is no legal recourse available. Cops or soldiers can lock you up on the slightest of pretences. We accept this as the price to keep the country intact and pretend it does not happen.

Why do you see this movement as a reaction to food inflation? AH gave the impression this was against corruption.

I should have just said inflation as thats the precursor. It then gets manifested in different ways around the world. Arab spring, numerous protests in China that have spiked over the last few years. The govt there raised the bar on income tax for the lowest slab, almost doubling it. In Israel protests over affordable housing. If we expand from inflation to economy, you can add the recent riots in the UK & Greece.

All these movements happened in the last six months, there is a common factor underpinning them. I think its inflation or economical.

Stomach empty, natives get restless.