Technology Risks to EVM?
- Thread starter Neotheone
- Start date
blr_p
Northstar
Post more cases to show what we have is not enough. The previous three were settled with only some googling.
I am looking at the whole picture as would be perceived by the public
If the issue is less trust & confidence then examine where the system comes up short. And I contend you've yet to make the case.
More transparency needed was mentioned earlier. Is justice served in time good enough as in the chandigarh case? I'd say so
Since the counting was video'd the transparency was adequate.
I am looking at the whole picture as would be perceived by the public
If the issue is less trust & confidence then examine where the system comes up short. And I contend you've yet to make the case.
More transparency needed was mentioned earlier. Is justice served in time good enough as in the chandigarh case? I'd say so
Since the counting was video'd the transparency was adequate.
@blr_p
> Whether people like it or not these machines should be seen as black boxes.
The crux of this entire discussion ends here.
Indian govt. and ECI is not running their family fiefdom. They are accountable to people.
If you want a blackbox and trust it blindly, it's your thought process and will. You get what you deserve.
Average person would like a transparent, trustworthy process which is thoroughly audited, questioned with every wrinkle straightened. Because voting is for the interest of people to select the leaders who run the country, not for sustaining a blindly trusted blackbox.
> Whether people like it or not these machines should be seen as black boxes.
The crux of this entire discussion ends here.
Indian govt. and ECI is not running their family fiefdom. They are accountable to people.
If you want a blackbox and trust it blindly, it's your thought process and will. You get what you deserve.
Average person would like a transparent, trustworthy process which is thoroughly audited, questioned with every wrinkle straightened. Because voting is for the interest of people to select the leaders who run the country, not for sustaining a blindly trusted blackbox.
blr_p
Northstar
Were EVM's even used in the chandigarh mayoral election? No, it was a paper ballot
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Didn't know that did you
Doesn't matter though
I was talking about the famed reliability of ECI that you mentioned several times. This was not an EVM issue, but a process issue. I thought it would be obvious, but not to everyone.Were EVM's even used in the chandigarh mayoral election?
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Didn't know that did you
Doesn't matter though
As is already established here, technical issues with EVMs are not sufficiently in public domain to enable any sensible discussion, and all discussion comes down to process.
Are you even following the basic gist of the discussion?
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blr_p
Northstar
Obviously
There is no blind trust. The machines are tested.
If it fails the tests you ask for a replacement and then you get a working machine. If it passes the tests then it's good to go. What more do you need to conduct an election?
Chandigarh is a good demonstration of that wouldn't you say.
Trust & confidence in this process needs to be constantly confirmed. That's a given.
Now go find some more cases. You last batch has been dealt with.
B
BullettuPaandi
Just a friendly neighbourhood reminder of how much of the actual discussion is done-and-dusted & far off this discussion is:
Chandigarh is a state, hence managed by the respective SEC - State Election Commission.
Chandigarh is a state, hence managed by the respective SEC - State Election Commission.
blr_p
Northstar
Well I was speaking wrt to EVMs so assumed that was the case when you mentioned chandigarh. Nobody has brought up paper ballots here so I flagged it.
Makes you wonder whether this fraud would have happened if they used EVM's instead of paper. Doesn't it.
Look for more cases.
State, city centre. Can you trust the system? In chandigarh. Am emphatic Yes
Bottomline
B
BullettuPaandi
Off-Topic
blr_p
Northstar
No. Trust & confidence is the entire point of this topic
EVM, process. Whatever. I went to vote.
Can I trust the result
B
BullettuPaandi
If that's what you choose to make of it.
blr_p
Northstar
Go read the first and second post and tell me what he is driving at
This has been the case since 2008 when I jumped into this topic that comes up periodically
B
BullettuPaandi
I suggest you buy a dictionary and look up trust or rather just hire a kindergarten tutor.
@BullettuPaandi
> Chandigarh is a state, hence managed by the respective SEC - State Election Commission.
Is'nt Chandigarh a UT ?
Central Government made Chandigarh a Union Territory wef November 1, 1966 with its administration functioning directly under the Central Government.
I mentioned Chandigarh mayoral election officer's behavior as a proof that those officers are humans with their own capabilities and faults. Blindly trusting humans on things like this is not going to help. It was not about ballot method (paper or not), but about human faults involved.
Top court sets aside results, initiates action against Returning Officer for ‘defacing’ ballot papers; Bench said it would not tolerate ‘subterfuges’ that destroy electoral democracy even at local levels.
For eg., @blr_p considering Chandigarh case as a litmus test for 'trustworthiness' of elections officers. That have to be most self-deprecating joke at the best. Situation salvaged only by SC after sabotage by officer was exposed, even when he was on camera. Shameful.
I think debate here is going on for the sake of arguments only, without genuine consideration for actual cause.
In elections where even one single vote can grossly change situations, tardy machines which gets damaged in considerable quantity when wind blows other side should not by blindly trusted. Needs to be thoroughly audited, reviewed, further audited routinely. That is the only point I want to make.
> Chandigarh is a state, hence managed by the respective SEC - State Election Commission.
Is'nt Chandigarh a UT ?
Central Government made Chandigarh a Union Territory wef November 1, 1966 with its administration functioning directly under the Central Government.
I mentioned Chandigarh mayoral election officer's behavior as a proof that those officers are humans with their own capabilities and faults. Blindly trusting humans on things like this is not going to help. It was not about ballot method (paper or not), but about human faults involved.
Top court sets aside results, initiates action against Returning Officer for ‘defacing’ ballot papers; Bench said it would not tolerate ‘subterfuges’ that destroy electoral democracy even at local levels.
For eg., @blr_p considering Chandigarh case as a litmus test for 'trustworthiness' of elections officers. That have to be most self-deprecating joke at the best. Situation salvaged only by SC after sabotage by officer was exposed, even when he was on camera. Shameful.
I think debate here is going on for the sake of arguments only, without genuine consideration for actual cause.
In elections where even one single vote can grossly change situations, tardy machines which gets damaged in considerable quantity when wind blows other side should not by blindly trusted. Needs to be thoroughly audited, reviewed, further audited routinely. That is the only point I want to make.
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blr_p
Northstar
It proves the system works. If fraud occurs there is a remedy available.
Look democracies are not setup with the idea angels will enter office. They are setup with provisions that if your PM becomes a criminal that you have options to remedy the situation.
When I say I trust the system and government take it as a guideline not literally.
Nah just a bunch of argumentative newbies trying to teach tricks to more experienced members and then resorting to personal attacks.
Already addressed this earlier.
B
BullettuPaandi
Never knew this till now; Thanks!
This is a lot more complicated than I thought.
Edit - Looks like it comes under 'SEC of NCT of Delhi & UT of Chandigarh' & not under SEC of the state it is actually in; super intuitive.
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@blr_p
> It proves the system works. If fraud occurs there is a remedy available.
The election system didn't work enough. That election officer criminally failed miserably. The judiciary worked after leaders / people took to the supreme court, supplanted the cause only because this nasty act caught on camera. Don't know what would've happened if camera was in wrong angle or something else.
How to stop errors and frauds more efficiently is the discussion here, blindly trust blackbox is not enough. One of the few steps involved is openness of EVM h/w and s/w.
> It proves the system works. If fraud occurs there is a remedy available.
The election system didn't work enough. That election officer criminally failed miserably. The judiciary worked after leaders / people took to the supreme court, supplanted the cause only because this nasty act caught on camera. Don't know what would've happened if camera was in wrong angle or something else.
How to stop errors and frauds more efficiently is the discussion here, blindly trust blackbox is not enough. One of the few steps involved is openness of EVM h/w and s/w.
blr_p
Northstar
You said something about transparency. Bet you didn't realise it could work in this manner
That camera is there for a reason. Fraud has occurred before with paper ballots. This why we moved on
The ECI disagrees so we have to work with what we got. And what it got ain't bad.
Not only that, it is well known that the condition of polling officers is appalling in many smaller towns and villages. They face hunger, late nights, waiting for submitting polling machines until early morning, traveling without infrastructure, heat.
Error of judgement in these conditions will not be surprising at all.
@blr_p
> The ECI disagrees so we have to work with what we got.
Now we reached a platitude
> And what it got ain't bad.
We shouldn't be settling with half good.
> You said something about transparency. Bet you didn't realise it could work in this manner
What you didn't realize yet is that the election side process (it was not even a human mistake, but badly intended crime) didn't work efficiently, judiciary had to be involved which was not at all needed. Otherwise, this issue wouldn't be even wasting valuable time of SC judges.
Now, only tool (paper) changed (to evm), people didn't change much, so process need refining.
www.thehindu.com
Process ?
www.livelaw.in
Snags ?
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Confusions ?
www.deccanherald.com
> The ECI disagrees so we have to work with what we got.
Now we reached a platitude
> And what it got ain't bad.
We shouldn't be settling with half good.
> You said something about transparency. Bet you didn't realise it could work in this manner
What you didn't realize yet is that the election side process (it was not even a human mistake, but badly intended crime) didn't work efficiently, judiciary had to be involved which was not at all needed. Otherwise, this issue wouldn't be even wasting valuable time of SC judges.
Now, only tool (paper) changed (to evm), people didn't change much, so process need refining.
Human error can occur in EVM-VVPAT system: Supreme Court
Supreme Court acknowledges human errors in EVM-VVPAT system, cites only one discrepancy in 2019 Lok Sabha elections.
Process ?
Supreme Court Rejects Pleas Seeking 100% EVM-VVPAT Cross Verification, Issues Directions To Seal Symbol Loading Unit
In a significant development, the Supreme Court today rejected the
Snags ?
EVM Snags disrupt polling in pockets in Chennai | Chennai News - Times of India
Technical snags and EVM malfunctions led to delays and frustrations during recent polling. Issues included delays at Kandasamy Naidu College, Nainiapp
timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Confusions ?
Ex-bureaucrat asks EC to ensure party-affiliated persons removed from board of BEL which manufacture EVM
Congress general secretary Randeep Surjewala and Shiv Sena (UBT) MP Priyanka Chaturvedi asked whether there will be free and fair elections when the office-bearers of the BJP are nominees as directors in BEL.
www.deccanherald.com
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