The vaccine chaos

[belictony]

If I post links to articles, it will be even more difficult to understand as most relevant articles written for doctors, microbiologists etc. and some can't be accessed without a subscription.
And I'm not going to refrain from posting because somebody with less than 100 posts doesn't understand the meaning of anaphylaxis or contraindication, yet want to read hardcore medical articles.
I have no great background on immunolgy, but yes, I do have post graduation training (MD, hope it's understandable) in both general medicine and community medicine from India.
There's absolutely no problem if the mods close this thread. I don't gain or loose anything from creating a vaccine related thread in a tech forum I love for years, and found many good friends from.

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It’s simple. The doctor I go to doesn’t confuse me like you did, he did not speak words like anaphylaxis or contraindications. He explained in plain simple words and what it is and what I should do about it. I never asked for hardcore medical articles and as you pointed out , I can’t understand it. What I asked was genuine articles which explains step by step on what it is, which is understandable for a non medicine background person.
If you can’t find such articles or post in simple words, then it’s better not to confuse people.

 

[red dragon]

All my friends here already know how to reach me 24*7 in any medical emergency.
You forgot it's a discussion of public health, individual medical history has its own place.

 

[belictony]

All my friends here already know how to reach me 24*7 in any medical emergency.
You forgot it's a discussion of public health, individual medical history has its own place.

That’s what I am saying.. if you want to rant about govt, you have every right. But you gave an opinion saying mannrak2003 user shouldn’t take vaccine. I may not know if you had a detailed discussion with him offline. But if somebody reads his question and your answer through this forum, they are going to take your opinion that person consuming iron tablets, etc shouldn’t take vaccine or whatever which may or may not be right..

There is a disclaimer in your thread, added by the Mods, but as you mentioned earlier, doctor availability is getting reduced and people might read that and not get vaccinated which would be harmful for them.

 

[red dragon]

If a single person avoids vaccine in next 2 -3 weeks after reading this thread, I would consider my mission accomplished...I helped to reduce at least one person from adding to the astronomical 3.5 lakh cases daily.
Please read the last 4 pages of the article. Credible and understandable enough for you?
If yes, I will post some pdf downloaded from paid journals.
Thanks mods for the disclaimer. My only concern is to save lives in any way possible. My bullheaded approach helped to make a lot of enemies @ Spain, but really don't care. A life is far more important than my ego.

 

[roofrider]

Anyone reading Geert's article also needs to read the counter arguments and criticisms and not take Geert's publication at face value. Do your due diligence. This is also a disclaimer.

 

[pauldmps]

If you don't want any advice, please buzz off from this thread - your opinion is neither required nor solicited.

No. Everyone has the right to post in this thread an you cannot ask anyone to just "buzz off".

The latest post by the OP makes it very clear that he is here simply to blanket discourage people from taking the vaccine altogether without going into the details on the merit on a case-by-case basis.
The assumption is that everyone that is dead is due to the vaccine and not the disease. It doesn't matter that less then 10% of Indian citizens have been vaccinated yet, with only less than 2% having fully vaccinated, while the cases are skyrocketing amongst younger population (who are not eligible for the vaccines yet), and that there is no studies, neither globally nor India-specific that shows any correlation to severe disease with getting the vaccine.
While there are multiple studies and common consensus that vaccines prevent a severe infection and hospitalisation in almost all cases.

Anyone reading Geert's article also needs to read the counter arguments and criticisms and not take Geert's publication at face value. Do your due diligence. This is also a disclaimer.

Exactly. Science is about consensus. Nobody should make conclusions based on one single person's opinion.

BTW when I asked to point to any studies showing correlation to severe COVID to vaccinations, I was told by the OP that "I am nuts".

 

[red dragon]

Yes, you are. Do you think anybody anywhere will get permissions to inject a vaccine in a RT PCR positive patient.
Heard of medical ethics?
Wow!! Geert by his first name!! Must be your classmate then ain't he?
Point to some counter arguments about the same. He only wrote about basic principles of immunology in a very concise manner.
Everything is available in textbooks. Find articles which argue about what's written in Guyton or Ganong.
You guys should really give up now and read up some basic immunology...at least innate active and passive immunity.
You pal Geert forgot to tell you, he holds a PhD in microbiology including virology.
People still blame dietary cholesterol for atherosclerosis years after it has been debunked. You still can find 48000 articles in Google with these key words.
So you will start believing in it and stop eating cholesterol altogether to increase you risk of stroke by 30 percent!!??

 

[roofrider]

Pffft, easier for me to type Geert. So yeah, Geert.

With that, I'm out of this. Good luck everyone.
I've provided some links in the other thread.
@red dragon If you care so much about Geert, please do read whatever counter arguments other experts (not me) provided and respond to those experts.

There's no need to find articles that argue about the fundamentals that's written in Guyton or Ganong. I specifically mentioned whatever Geert published. Again, not Guyton or Ganong.

My intention is that reader should be aware and not be misled. They need to due their due diligence. And I stand by that.
Doesn't matter how much you vouch for Geert, who's article spreads fear among the uninformed (general public). You should probably find other experts who can vouch for Geert and explain why the counter arguments directed at Geert by other experts are confounded.

I don't care about politics and am not interested in discussing how this country is handling the outbreak (never did in any of these threads). I do care about information being presented accurately so others won't misunderstand and in turn spread misinformation.

Instead of saying don't vaccinate. You should say don't rush like a mad person to a crowded hospital, wait for the peak period to be over and then vaccinate. Instead of using superlatives and exaggeration.
Do talk all you want about the govt, I don't care.

Over and out.

 

[letmein]

Guys, all you need to do is put 2+2 (and maybe add another 2 and another 3 for good measure) together.
1) The organization the OP is associated with is the same organization which actively discouraged use of masks and said C**** is not responsible.
2) The org bows down to and calls daddy a certain country. Is it any surprise that these threads were posted several weeks after India started it's vacc campaign?

PS. Has the central government screwed up? Most certainly, without doubt. On multiple fronts. Oxygen, vaccine procurement, mass rallies etc. Blame them all you want. And I will support you.

 

[y2s]

Let me get this straight -

• @red dragon was wrong to say those with allergies should avoid the vaccine? but it's okay for @pauldmps to say that he is wrong even though he is the one that is saying things that are the opposite of what his own link to MOHW says. I may be no doctor but its quite simple to understand the reason why those with allergies or covid should not take the vaccine - no one knows what may happen! YET
• @belictony believes that a discussion should not happen because he is incapable of understanding it? That's just ridiculous. Why should anyone on a public forum dumb themselves down because you are unable to understand WTF is going on? I'm sure if you ask politely several people would be happy to explain it - why the arrogance?

I don't want to take sides, nor get into a shouting match with anyone but please guys let better sense prevail.

Vaccination is very important and must be done in a timely manner. Those eligible and able must take it as soon as they can regardless of efficacy. However safety must not be overlooked - even in such trying times.

 

[red dragon]

These threads were created when India continued to vaccinate with massive community spread.
Vaccination was perfectly acceptable till late February early March.
It's not an anti vaccine thread. I've taken vaccines myself.
BTW , I am not an employee of WHO, I am a completely independent public health physician, epidemiologist.
WHO hires us for few months every year, I worked for ICMR too last year. And both of them messed up.
But don't you think, people at WHO know a little more about vaccination than Indian medical association? Now polio is finally eradicated, who arranged those gruelling mop up rounds in gutters of Bihar and Western UP? Who take care of ebola outbreaks everytime? Any idea how many people we lost to ebola, how many is still fighting it out in Chile ( after mass vaccination disaster during peak transmission)?
Not everyone is playing politics man, what kind of gain do I expect from a thread like this in a tech forum?
I'm in a perfectly peaceful place, living in 5 star hotels, earning sufficient money...

 

[belictony]

believes that a discussion should not happen because he is incapable of understanding it? That's just ridiculous. Why should anyone on a public forum dumb themselves down because you are unable to understand WTF is going on? I'm sure if you ask politely several people would be happy to explain it - why the arrogance?

I never said that.

 

[red dragon]

I'm really disgusted, go take your vaccines tomorrow, bring along all the elderly people with you.
You guys got a leader you truly deserve.
I'm out of this discussion, where people don't understand meaning of contraindication, hypersensitivities, yet argues about vaccination.
All the best!!

 

[rdst_1]

He has said multiple times this is not an anti-vaccine thread and we know for a long time now that he himself has been vaccinated.
I don't know why the two members are having a hard time understanding that all he is saying that this is not the right time to take the vaccines. Or saying that people with known allergies should not be taking the vaccines.

I had come to this conclusion even before this thread because a) I could see long lines with no social distancing at the vaccination centres. When the disease is running rampant, then it makes complete sense not to risk going to such places as one will definitely catch the disease from such an environment.
b) It is clear, despite the new data ICMR is showing everyone, that no 4th stage data is being collected properly. The 4th stage vaccine efficacy data is collected when the public rollout of the vaccine is done and I now know of many cases through personal instances where no post-mortem has been done of people who have died after taking the first or second dose of the vaccine. Not saying the vaccine caused their death, but it is an important part of 4th stage data to take all these cases into account.

If you do the 4th stage data collection when the disease is running rampant then you will never know whether the vaccine works or not.
Right now, what is needed is that we sit tight at homes (unless it is an emergency) to reduce the span of this second wave and begin immunization again once the numbers go down as that will provide a safer environment for immunization as well as correct data collection regarding efficacy of the vaccines.

 

[vivek.krishnan]

I don't care what degree or license you have outside India. I will follow the guidelines published by the MoHFW as that is relevant for Indian citizens. Medical standards vary from country to country and I will stick to the protocols defined by the govt of India. Vaccine hesitancy is already at its peak. Many of my friend's parents are now serious with Covid because they were hesitant to take the vaccine due to such scare tactics spread via social media.

I would request everyone to please follow the MoHFW guidelines and talk to their family doctors before deciding to not take the vaccine.
https://www.mohfw.gov.in/covid_vaccination/vaccination/faqs.html

I don't think this is an appropriate platform for people to get medical advice from unverified sources. I hope mods lock this thread.

As much as I despise the way @red dragon says we have mishandled the COVID 2nd or 3rd wave, I think its better to allow since most of what he says makes medical sense and is posted online. IANAD either.

As for the vaccine hesitancy, that is a fool who believes whatsapp forwards and all. Our family doc said to take it, so my family did.

The older (and in my opinion a much more knowledgably) doc had suggested to take only if at high risk - if staying indoors only, with nearly zero contact, wait for more information to come out and if any specific mutations. This was not now, but last year.

Understood that you have great background on this subject. What about people from non medicine background which most of us are in this forum?. We don’t understand what is anaphylaxis or I haven’t heard the word contraindication in my life before.
pls be mindful of your posts as it is difficult to comprehend for people like me. Put your post in simple words. if it’s difficult to type it out in simple words, pls refrain, rather post links for genuine articles which we can explain it step by step. that way the person who really wants to understand about it, can read the full article and learn rather than getting confused by the medicinal terms.

Google for the terms. Search for ELI5 with the same terms

Some one else can post a simplified version of his posts here if needed without deviating from the content.

 

[TEUser2K1]

I am acutely allergic to Paraphenylenediamine, T2 Diabetic for 7yrs+.

2-Apr. - Took 1st Pfizer Dose 1
11-Apr. - Tested Covid19 +ve, symptoms were low, mild.
19-Apr. - Tested Covid19 -ve.
23-Apr. - 2nd Pfizer Dose was scheduled, so met Dr. and checked whether I can take vaccine. They said no problem since I only had low symptoms. I was feeling fine after vaccination. Dr. categorically asked whether am taking any antibiotic in that case I cannot be vaccinated - was not taking any.

24-Apr. - Next day, , was having mild fever, heavy body shivering, extreme weakness, extreme pain and muscle exhaustion of thigh and calf muscles, back pain, feeling to vomit - thought of getting admitted in in hospital. Even symptoms from Covid19 was not this bad. Took Paracetamol 500mg. every 4 hours.

25-Apr. - Today am feeling okayish, still taking Paracetamol 500mg. every 4hrs.

My situation may be unique, should not be followed by others. But, wanted to share the experience.

 

[red dragon]

I went through some of my previous posts and it's true some of them are very poorly worded, some are arrogant and outright obnoxious.
In my defence: I rarely get a chance to interact with non medical people in real life. Since I don't work in a hospital, sorrounded by a group of scientists and doctors all day. Even at home ( a hotel actually) I discuss covid related things with another doctor.
Since I don't practice medicine anymore, my patients are recovering/ active addicts and alcoholics with whom covid rarely comes up and most of them don't speak English.
I'm so sorry to come across like a condescending jerk most of the time in the covid related threads.
If I offended or confused any of you in any way, please forgive me. Confusion is last thing one needs in these trying times.
But I can assure you of one thing, I do have pretty clear idea about general immunolgy and universal vaccination protocols ( doing it for 15 years)
If any of you can't contact your doctor ( they are under immense pressure) and feeling lost, just ask, I will try my best to clarify in easy language and give textbook references ( it's very easy to get lost completely if you only read online articles) all these textbooks are available for free ( not necessarily legal) but not possible for everyone to buy ( they are very expensive, most medical books are)
If I don't know something ( there are millions of things I don't understand), will clearly state that too.

I am acutely allergic to Paraphenylenediamine, T2 Diabetic for 7yrs+.

2-Apr. - Took 1st Pfizer Dose 1
11-Apr. - Tested Covid19 +ve, symptoms were low, mild.
19-Apr. - Tested Covid19 -ve.
23-Apr. - 2nd Pfizer Dose was scheduled, so met Dr. and checked whether I can take vaccine. They said no problem since I only had low symptoms. I was feeling fine after vaccination. Dr. categorically asked whether am taking any antibiotic in that case I cannot be vaccinated - was not taking any.

24-Apr. - Next day, , was having mild fever, heavy body shivering, extreme weakness, extreme pain and muscle exhaustion of thigh and calf muscles, back pain, feeling to vomit - thought of getting admitted in in hospital. Even symptoms from Covid19 was not this bad. Took Paracetamol 500mg. every 4 hours.

25-Apr. - Today am feeling okayish, still taking Paracetamol 500mg. every 4hrs.

My situation may be unique, should not be followed by others. But, wanted to share the experience.

Where are you located? Do you know the case positivity ratio in your area when you received the first or second dose?
We all were somewhat sick during our second shot of Biontech. But we were safely vaccinated with the second jab as the case positivity was less than 1 and everyone was RT PCR negative.
We were vaccinated in a practically fail proof area with plenty of medical help and in presence of top notch clinician buddies.
Is it possible to recreate the scenario in India at this point?

 

[pauldmps]

Let me get this straight -

• @red dragon was wrong to say those with allergies should avoid the vaccine? but it's okay for @pauldmps to say that he is wrong even though he is the one that is saying things that are the opposite of what his own link to MOHW says. I may be no doctor but its quite simple to understand the reason why those with allergies or covid should not take the vaccine - no one knows what may happen! YET

I don't want to take sides, nor get into a shouting match with anyone but please guys let better sense prevail.

Vaccination is very important and must be done in a timely manner. Those eligible and able must take it as soon as they can regardless of efficacy. However safety must not be overlooked - even in such trying times.

I did not go through the link and read all the text mentioned in it. My aim was to point people to official resources instead of taking medical advice from strangers over the internet. Yes as pointed by someone, the link does mention that people with certain allergies are not allowed to take the vaccine. But the recipient should not be deciding that without talking to a qualified medical professional. And I will repeat again here that this forum is not the place to receive such medical opinion. Such decisions have to be taken on a case by case basis based on the exact nature of allergies, medical history and other factors face to face with a doctor.
Instead what I see here is blanket conclusion to prevent people from getting the vaccine.

And honestly, the kind of language used by @red dragon really doesn't make me feel like he is a doctor. He has been calling me "nuts", not providing any peer reviewed research on the claims that he has been making, and posting childish panic-like texts like this:

I'm really disgusted, go take your vaccines tomorrow, bring along all the elderly people with you.

 

[red dragon]

Brother, case by case decision making is not feasible when daily caseload is close to 4 lakhs.
Epidemiological practices during epidemics differ considerably from conventional medical practice.
You were asking for studies where RT-PCR positives were given vaccines ( that's a contraindication for vaccination) No such study exists, as it's unethical. It's like asking for studies of effect of covid 19 vaccines on pregnant women ( 8 patients in UK were given the vaccines as the recipients didn't know about the pregnancy, 4 of them had spontaneous abortions!!)
Visit any mass vaccination centre anywhere in India now, a nursing staff will ask you about your allergies, that's it, she will not go through your medical history/ patch test results or anything.
By perfect world earlier I meant this. Every allergic reaction you had earlier needs to be matched with a patch test result. An allergen which affected you when you were 5 years old may or may not affect you when you're 35. Reverse is also true.
We went through not only the patch test, all of us were tested for IgE levels, absolute eosinophil counts before vaccination. We didn't pay a single penny for anything. By God's grace we have these privileges as we're considered invaluable "assets" during pandemics ( only because we served in countries where their own doctors either got sick or left town..LaPaz hospital in Madrid in my case)
Dr. Bossche himself got vaccinated with the same vaccine like myself under similar failproof conditions.
BTW, Dr. Bossche is a veterinarian, who faught his way up to get a PhD in virolgy and has enormous experience in animal and in-vitro studies. Not a lot of people have this kind of academic credentials, bridging the gap between animal and human studies.

Anyone interested, please Google random mutation vs convergent mutation in virus. I'm scared of the backlash if I go too deep in technicalities.
But all of you must have noticed the change in mutation pattern of covid 19 and it's implications ( mostly immune escape)
Any virus which starts following a convergent pattern of mutation usually gets people thinking that something is wrong with our approach...Dr. Byram Bridle actually noticed it, this February, I attended that particular symposium, but can't find it anywhere now. The youtube is filled up with so much junk that it's getting increasingly difficult to find genuine contents.

Found it!! It's incredible that a video like this got so few views!!

 

[JMP]

@red dragon - Is it sensible to venture out for the second dose of Astrazeneca (CoviShield) now if 1st dose was already administered 6 weeks ago? Paperwork says delaying beyond 49 (7 weeks) is not recommended, but the situation outside is quite bad.

Folks, if you trust your doctor 100%, do what (s)he says. If you have the desire to know more, look at this as an opportunity to learn, read more on what is discussed here, listen to counter-arguments, speak to your doctor about it and then do what makes most sense to you. IMO, this is all that we can do about things beyond our control/understanding.

We could all do better in being more polite and understanding toward one other, the pandemic has bestowed enough misery to our lives, let's not add more to it.