Vacuum cleaner for home

[adder]

I have nothing further to add, Just be happy with your bling new toy I can see how biased and blinded you are.

Bosch consumer division is different from their tool division. Even in their tool division you have products made for consumers typically with green color plastics and then pro level ones with blue color plastics.

I critize products where it's necessary like bosch indian built tools, bosch planned obseclence design of their wahsing machines.

 

[desiibond]

I have nothing further to add, Just be happy with your new toy I can see how biased any blinded you are.

You boast about German engineering, about Bosch/Karcher and you belittle Dutch product (that you have not even used or touched) that won the prestigious iF design award, an award that companies like Bosch/Karcher are proud of winning, product that is one of the best selling and highly recommended across the globe. You further call this award 'just another award' and you compare Philips with Maruti.

I never said Karcher or Bosch are bad companies/products. I only said that PowerPro is a very good product that is worth buying. You blindly think that smaller is bad because bigger ones run cooler (all this without even testing compact cleaner).

And you call me biased/blinded. This is indeed joke of the century.

You be happy with your antique piece.

 

[Chaos]

Well I have a roborock S5 max, a Xiaomi mi robot mop-p, a karcher wd3 plus and a Dyson v11 absolute pro.

Guess which one gets used the most? It's the roborock as I am lazy and this does more than enough job for cleaning floors daily. The Xiaomi also finds decent use on the first floor.

Which one gets the second most use - it's the Dyson. It is just way too convenient for ceilings, corners etc which roborock can't reach. Suction power is never a problem in auto mode.

The karcher barely gets any use as I hate lugging around wires. It's too much of a pain.

 

[desiibond]

Well I have a roborock S5 max, a Xiaomi mi robot mop-p, a karcher wd3 plus and a Dyson v11 absolute pro.

Guess which one gets used the most? It's the roborock as I am lazy and this does more than enough job for cleaning floors daily. The Xiaomi also finds decent use on the first floor.

Totally agree with your point of view. Robot vacuum cleaners are the perfect ones for floor cleaning. You do not have to move a muscle. Absolutely worth paying extra for these if the priority is floor cleaning.

Which one gets the second most use - it's the Dyson. It is just way too convenient for ceilings, corners etc which roborock can't reach. Suction power is never a problem in auto mode.

As I said earlier, Dyson cleaners cost too much and are out of reach for most Indians. The premium over canister-type cleaners is not worth paying for. This is why, after so much search and testing, I went with Philips PowerPro compact cleaner. Gives the power of full-size cleaner and is compact enough to easily carry around or move around. Also, it comes with accessories that help me clean corners of house with ease. The best part is that it costs just 7k and does not burn a hole in my pocket.

Of course, if something like a Dyson V11 becomes mainstream (w.r.t price), I can consider that for primary use. As long as it costs 5-6 times over something like PowerPro, no point in even thinking of buying one.

The karcher barely gets any use as I hate lugging around wires. It's too much of a pain.

Again, agree with you on this. Wet/dry cleaners this big are overrated and wet cleaning is not really useful. A mop is so much easierand I believe new generation robot vacuum cleaners come with wet cleaning as well.

If you have a home that does not get dusty every day and if you have money to spend without a second thought, the ideal way to do is Dyson V11+Robot vacuum cleaner. Cough up some 70-80k and this combination works very well.

When money matters and where regular deep cleaning is required, I would any day go with something like Philips PowerPro or LG MK LITE. Spend less than 10k and these things are worth every rupee. You get best of both worlds. This is exactly what canister vacuums are meant to be. Replace traditional old aluminum/tin cans till cordless ones get better in power/pricing.

 

[adder]

You boast about German engineering, about Bosch/Karcher and you belittle Dutch product (that you have not even used or touched) that won the prestigious iF design award, an award that companies like Bosch/Karcher are proud of winning, product that is one of the best selling and highly recommended across the globe. You further call this award 'just another award' and you compare Philips with Maruti.

And you call me biased. This is indeed joke of the century.

You be happy with your antique piece.

No pro level stuff is even considered for these iF awards. The pro level customers don't care either. The fact that you put such emphasis on a award shows where you are on this matter. I will be happy with my pro level stuff this after testing seeing multiple consumer stuff and only then moving on to pro level stuff. You be happy with your consumer stuff.

 

[desiibond]

No pro level stuff is even considered for these iF awards. The pro level customers don't care either. The fact that you put such emphasis on a award shows where you are on this matter. I will be happy with my pro level stuff this after testing seeing multiple consumer stuff and only then moving on to pro level stuff. You be happy with your consumer stuff.

Boss, pro-level or industrial stuff is not for a normal home. Shed your blind hatred towards mainstream consumer tech. There is a reason why this is called 'Consumer tech'. Just because pros use high end servers/workstations and datacentres does not mean that one who needs a good computer build a datacentre in home or go and buy a server because it has better thermals.

How can you not understand this simple difference? Or are you living in a denial?

Also, please stop this 'award is worth only if pro level or industry-grade products are awarded' logic. This is childish and shows your inability to accept that you were wrong. Anyways, you do not even understand 'consumer tech' and you cannot differentiate between consumer needs and industrial needs, how can you understand the value of iF design awards. Such awards are beyond your imagination.

 

[rdst_1]

Boss, pro-level or industrial stuff is not for a normal home. Shed your blind hatred towards mainstream consumer tech.

I can understand why you feel this way. But he is not wrong either and I echo his sentiments. Even I have decided to go for commercial/pro options for house appliances like WMs, refrigerator etc in the future, because the latest consumer appliances are now built with planned obsolescence and the quality has gone down as well.
Yes, it is also perfectly alright for you to feel the way you do as the products are at difference price points. But the point he is making about longevity (which probably doesn't matter to you in the home setting) and design for more pro use is also right. This being a forum, it is good to see discussion and advice about such things so that everyone can make a more informed decision.
Another benefit of choosing pro grade stuff over consumer grade (and my personal reason) is repairability. Pro grade stuff is easily repairable because it is designed that way and hence in the long run, it might end up costing similar because whereas one will have to use and throw the consumer grade appliance, the pro grade will have parts and repairs available for cheap.

 

[desiibond]

I can understand why you feel this way. But he is not wrong either and I echo his sentiments. Even I have decided to go for commercial/pro options for house appliances like WMs, refrigerator etc in the future, because the latest consumer appliances are now built with planned obsolescence and the quality has gone down as well.
Yes, it is also perfectly alright for you to feel the way you do as the products are at difference price points. But the point he is making about longevity (which probably doesn't matter to you in the home setting) and design for more pro use is also right. This being a forum, it is good to see discussion and advice about such things so that everyone can make a more informed decision.
Another benefit of choosing pro grade stuff over consumer grade (and my personal reason) is repairability. Pro grade stuff is easily repairable because it is designed that way and hence in the long run, it might end up costing similar because whereas one will have to use and throw the consumer grade appliance, the pro grade will have parts and repairs available for cheap.

Saying industrial grade products is one thing. But acting as if consumer tech is bad is not the right thing to day.

Coming to pro vs mainstream tech:
My LG washing machine is into 6th year and my LG refrigerator is decade old. Look at 1 and 2 star reviews of karcher wd3 on Amazon. Lot of failures though it is made for long run. Pro ones in India are not really indestructible as companies cut corners to keep cost low. The only exception here being brands like Dyson where cost is not concern for brand.

So, in India, a pro cannot be termed more reliable. Failures rates has been high for these brands as well. If we are in Europe, this discussion would be different.

Also, In world where tech is changing radically every 3 years, anything that goes beyond 3 years is highly acceptable. I would rather buy mainstream tech with latest features, use it for few years and get new one in exchange. Why pay extra when clearly the industrial grade ones in India are not of same quality as those in Europe?

 

[adder]

Boss, pro-level or industrial stuff is not for a normal home. Shed your blind hatred towards mainstream consumer tech. There is a reason why this is called 'Consumer tech'. Just because pros use high end servers/workstations and datacentres does not mean that one who needs a good computer build a datacentre in home or go and buy a server because it has better thermals.

How can you not understand this simple difference? Or are you living in a denial?

Also, please stop this 'award is worth only if pro level or industry-grade products are awarded' logic. This is childish and shows your inability to accept that you were wrong. Anyways, you do not even understand 'consumer tech' and you cannot differentiate between consumer needs and industrial needs, how can you understand the value of iF design awards. Such awards are beyond your imagination.

Who said pro level stuff is not for home use, if there is a option to the consumer to choose, I see no reason not to go for pro level stuff if your budget permits. There are machines out there which have good suctions, low watts which will work in 6A socket and much quieter and for sure built much much better.
Data center server is of little use to a home user, enthusiast PC build in almost most cases will have top quality compared to a off the shelf server. Even in laptops you can buy a dell inspiron vs say a latitude or precision. My several years old Dell open box precision still works nothing is broken but the same cant be said to the consumer windows laptops that I have gone through.

I said awards of this nature only takes into account the consumer level stuff, do you think a CES or IFA award winning tvs can hold a candle to PRO level tv size displays from Sony/panasonic that are out there. Sure they cost several times more but they are better but they don't win awards but people who use them do win awards.

Saying industrial grade products is one thing. But acting as if consumer tech is bad is not the right thing to day.

Coming to pro vs mainstream tech:
My LG washing machine is into 6th year and my LG refrigerator is decade old. Look at 1 and 2 star reviews of karcher wd3 on Amazon. Lot of failures though it is made for long run. Pro ones in India are not really indestructible as companies cut corners to keep cost low. The only exception here being brands like Dyson where cost is not concern for brand.

So, in India, a pro cannot be termed more reliable. Failures rates has been high for these brands as well. If we are in Europe, this discussion would be different.

Also, In world where tech is changing radically every 3 years, anything that goes beyond 3 years is highly acceptable. I would rather buy mainstream tech with latest features, use it for few years and get new one in exchange. Why pay extra when clearly the industrial grade ones in India are not of same quality as those in Europe?

The fact that you include karcher WD3 as pro level shows that you really haven't seen a pro level machine. Wd3 is a consumer product, its was rejected by me one the first demo. I had even demoed their pro level machines costing from 20k+ upto to 50k.

You are free to buy a consumer product if you choose to, but no thanks to consumers like you who are happy if it last 3 years is the reason why manufactures have gone to the planned obsolescence trend. My whirpool WM is now 13 years old it had a bearing which conked off in 6th year, luckily it was one of the last models that still had a removable tub assembly. I personally changed the bearings and its now been 4 years and still running. Had I bought a new whirlpool model it would have conked off at 6th to 8 year with no way to repair.
Lg washing machine thankfully which I also have still allow for bearing changes even for their 2021 models, I hope they don't go the way Bosch/siemens, whirlpool, Beko, Haier, IFB, pretty much the majority of the machines today are built so that you cannot repair it, or will be too expensive to repair. If all consumers are like you who are happy a product last 3 years, this world will be doomed with lots of waste and dumps. Or people living on pensions or having a hard time financially who cannot afford to replace their appliances.

The fact that amazon cloudtail india sells some pro level bosch stuff means there is a demand and opportunity for consumers to make a choice they like.

 

[rdst_1]

Saying industrial grade products is one thing. But acting as if consumer tech is bad is not the right thing to day.

Coming to pro vs mainstream tech:
My LG washing machine is into 6th year and my LG refrigerator is decade old. Look at 1 and 2 star reviews of karcher wd3 on Amazon. Lot of failures though it is made for long run. Pro ones in India are not really indestructible as companies cut corners to keep cost low. The only exception here being brands like Dyson where cost is not concern for brand.

So, in India, a pro cannot be termed more reliable. Failures rates has been high for these brands as well. If we are in Europe, this discussion would be different.

Also, In world where tech is changing radically every 3 years, anything that goes beyond 3 years is highly acceptable. I would rather buy mainstream tech with latest features, use it for few years and get new one in exchange. Why pay extra when clearly the industrial grade ones in India are not of same quality as those in Europe?

My LG refrigerator was bought in 2002. It had a small issue 3 years ago and I found out that it is nearly unrepairable because the morons who designed it embedded all the wiring inside the insulation. There is literally no need to do anything other than change the wires and it would last another few decades because refrigerators are such simple machines, as are other common household appliances like WMs, vacuum cleaners etc.
These things should easily last 2-3 decades and even then should be easily repairable as it used to be earlier.
Thinking that it is alright to have to replace these appliance every 3 years is not right my friend. Don't just think from the perspective of whether you can afford it or not. You also have to take environmental factors into consideration in today's day and age man.

At the end of the day, all we are saying is that these days consumer appliances are no longer what they used to be and it can be better, in some cases, to opt for industrial/commercial/pro grade stuff, even if they cost extra.

No one was pissing on your purchase, if you think it was that.

 

[desiibond]

My LG refrigerator was bought in 2002. It had a small issue 3 years ago and I found out that it is nearly unrepairable because the morons who designed it embedded all the wiring inside the insulation. There is literally no need to do anything other than change the wires and it would last another few decades because refrigerators are such simple machines, as are other common household appliances like WMs, vacuum cleaners etc.
These things should easily last 2-3 decades and even then should be easily repairable as it used to be earlier.

2-3 decades? Seriously? Even if they last, things are changing so fast that it makes sense to change when the time is right instead of just keeping these till they die.

Thinking that it is alright to have to replace these appliance every 3 years is not right my friend. Don't just think from the perspective of whether you can afford it or not. You also have to take environmental factors into consideration in today's day and age man.

At the end of the day, all we are saying is that these days consumer appliances are no longer what they used to be and it can be better, in some cases, to opt for industrial/commercial/pro grade stuff, even if they cost extra.

3 years is based on the general mindset now. I personally have been happy with my home appliances for a decade or more. None of these are so-called 'pro' stuff and yet these work just fine. Would I use these for 20 years? Absolutely not. I would be eyeing changing these in the next year or two as I get new appliances that are better at electricity consumption. Lower energy consumption, better efficiency thereby keeping my carbon footprint lower.

No one was pissing on your purchase, if you think it was that.

Yeah, I know. There are two ways to say that certain product category is good.

1. Your choice is good but you can also consider these as these last longer and if your budget permits, look at these.
2. Your choice is bad and it does not work properly. People like you are ruining the industry. Only my choice product category is good.

Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong is suggesting but imposing and ridiculing a product category is n00bish behaviour to be frank. Giving advice is free but in this process, some people cross their limits because they simply cannot understand the requirement and need of the other person. They always see the world with their PoV and end up in this kind of state.

Who said pro level stuff is not for home use, if there is a option to the consumer to choose, I see no reason not to go for pro level stuff if your budget permits. There are machines out there which have good suctions, low watts which will work in 6A socket and much quieter and for sure built much much better.
Data center server is of little use to a home user, enthusiast PC build in almost most cases will have top quality compared to a off the shelf server. Even in laptops you can buy a dell inspiron vs say a latitude or precision. My several years old Dell open box precision still works nothing is broken but the same cant be said to the consumer windows laptops that I have gone through.

And I have a Mac Mini from 2012 that still works (in a super-compact form). Again, you must shed this blind hatred towards compact products.

I said awards of this nature only takes into account the consumer level stuff, do you think a CES or IFA award winning tvs can hold a candle to PRO level tv size displays from Sony/panasonic that are out there. Sure they cost several times more but they are better but they don't win awards but people who use them do win awards.

This is the weirdest logic that I have ever seen. Pro display is required for accuracy and that is a must for content creators. Asking someone who is going to watch a 720p or 1080p movie on OTT to buy the same pro-level display does not make any sense. For this need, all that is needed is one that best suits the need and one that fits the budget. Just because you use ultra costly products does not mean everyone must buy those and this definitely does not mean that mainstream products are bad. (phew, dont know how many times I tried to explain this to you)

The fact that you include karcher WD3 as pro level shows that you really haven't seen a pro level machine. Wd3 is a consumer product, its was rejected by me one the first demo. I had even demoed their pro level machines costing from 20k+ upto to 50k.

20k to 50k for a vacuum cleaner with big aluminum tank? No, sorry. I would rather go with Dyson V11 or something like this if I have that kind of money. And this is what a 'mainstream buyer' would buy. And anyways, for mainstream buyers, a sub-10k cleaner does work very well and these last long. You keep buying 'pro' stuff and beat your chest.

You are free to buy a consumer product if you choose to, but no thanks to consumers like you who are happy if it last 3 years is the reason why manufactures have gone to the planned obsolescence trend.

It pains to see that your kind is pushed aside for 'normal' buyers, doesn't it? Is this why you are so angry with mainstream consumer tech?

My whirpool WM is now 13 years old it had a bearing which conked off in 6th year, luckily it was one of the last models that still had a removable tub assembly. I personally changed the bearings and its now been 4 years and still running. Had I bought a new whirlpool model it would have conked off at 6th to 8 year with no way to repair.

And my 'normal' LG washing machine that is 9 years old is running without a single issue. My normal stuff seems to work better than the stuff that you purchase after so many demos and trials and whatever.

Lg washing machine thankfully which I also have still allow for bearing changes even for their 2021 models, I hope they don't go the way Bosch/siemens, whirlpool, Beko, Haier, IFB, pretty much the majority of the machines today are built so that you cannot repair it, or will be too expensive to repair. If all consumers are like you who are happy a product last 3 years, this world will be doomed with lots of waste and dumps. Or people living on pensions or having a hard time financially who cannot afford to replace their appliances.

The fact that amazon cloudtail india sells some pro level bosch stuff means there is a demand and opportunity for consumers to make a choice they like.

Yeah, and one who wants an industrial-grade product will buy one. You do not go around and shout 'only buy industrial grade, others are junk'. No one would take advice from someone who is obsessed with industrial-grade products and for every suggestion request, goes out and shouts 'only buy industrial grade by spending lot more than what your budget is'.

Anyways, your strong obsessive negativity towards PowePro is misplaced. It is working very well, cleaning is super easy, storing it too is super easy. Thank God I do not have this obsession with industrial-grade cleaners like you and fall for industrial 25L or something wet/dry cleaner. I almost purchased Bosch 15L wet/dry cleaner and I also almost went ahead with American Micronic 21ltr vacuum cleaner. Then I did a further search, took demos, and finalized on PowerPro. If I got an aluminum tank, that would've found a place in the storeroom for a year or two and then sold on the marketplace section here.

If I open a company to offer home cleaning services, I will gladly take your advice and go for industrial cleaners. For single home use, I would stick to mainstream cleaners and probably in the future, invest in robot floor cleaner.

If I buy an industrial-grade product instead of 'my choice', will you give me a guarantee that it will work for 10 or 20 years? If it does not, are you ready to refund that entire amount to me because my decision was based on you going ga-ga on these things and how you talk so much that these things last really long and are hassle-free? Will you refund the entire amount to me if I find it a hassle to use these pro products? If you feel so, I am planning to change my fridge this Diwali. I will gladly go with the so-called pro model (pro fridge sounds funny). You send your guarantee in writing on a stamp paper that you take full responsibility for product failure if it happens and you will refund the entire amount. Also, that if there are any problems, you will pay for those charges as well.
Here are some of the reviews for Bosch GAS-12-25. These are 1-star reviews. If this is such an amazing product, every single unit should work long, really long and should be problem-free. There are widespread reports of low suction and there are fitment issues and there are body issues. So, please cut your crap on this 'pro ones are the best and only buy pro ones'. In India, pro is not pro and ultra is not ultra. Every product line has higher failure rate and I cannot and would not blindly go by 'industrial design' tag.

 

[adder]

2-3 decades? Seriously? Even if they last, things are changing so fast that it makes sense to change when the time is right instead of just keeping these till they die.

And my 'normal' LG washing machine that is 9 years old is running without a single issue. My normal stuff seems to work better than the stuff that you purchase after so many demos and trials and whatever.

Yeah, and one who wants an industrial-grade product will buy one. You do not go around and shout 'only buy industrial grade, others are junk'. No one would take advice from someone who is obsessed with industrial-grade products and for every suggestion request, goes out and shouts 'only buy industrial grade by spending lot more than what your budget is'.

Certain things change, like electronics, computing power. The mechanical aspect doesn't change much. For eg my old whirlpool has a universal brushed motor vs the new brushless direct drive of the LG. Yet the power consumption difference between them is negligible. The LG motor is quieter but due to poor fit and finish and certain cost cutting in the recent models the machine is still louder in the spin cycle due to vibration, as documented by me in various posts in this forum. The only reason I went with the LG is because of the serviceability. The only other machine that I had a option which would last decades was a 3x cost miele washing machine, the problem with that was the spares is not available in India if something goes wrong and each part would take time to arrive.
In case why the whirlpool machine bearing failed, is that they all fail eventually with how many loads you put in a week, weight of the load, RPM selected. But some people in my house used the machine with incorrect detergent causing excessive foam, which eats away the grease in the seal.
Everyone here is going to take the decision to buy on their criteria and budget. So whether one takes any persons advice is upto the person who reads it.

Yeah, I know. There are two ways to say that certain product category is good.

1. Your choice is good but you can also consider these as these last longer and if your budget permits, look at these.
2. Your choice is bad and it does not work properly. People like you are ruining the industry. Only my choice product category is good.

Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong is suggesting but imposing and ridiculing a product category is n00bish behaviour to be frank. Giving advice is free but in this process, some people cross their limits because they simply cannot understand the requirement and need of the other person. They always see the world with their PoV and end up in this kind of state.

No one here is imposing, but the fact is there are pros and cons to any device or a machine. I merely pointed that out. No one is pissing on your purchase. As i said before if it works for you for 20min non stop great. You where the one trying to justify your purchase, when my first post in this topic was not even directed at you.

And I have a Mac Mini from 2012 that still works (in a super-compact form). Again, you must shed this blind hatred towards compact products.

Good for you and I have no issues with compact products if they perform the same or have portability factor. I too have a macbook air from 2012 or 13 that still works.

This is the weirdest logic that I have ever seen. Pro display is required for accuracy and that is a must for content creators. Asking someone who is going to watch a 720p or 1080p movie on OTT to buy the same pro-level display does not make any sense. For this need, all that is needed is one that best suits the need and one that fits the budget. Just because you use ultra costly products does not mean everyone must buy those and this definitely does not mean that mainstream products are bad. (phew, dont know how many times I tried to explain this to you)

You have to see the context of the post, my point was awards doesn't mean its the best product. The Maruti swift car may have won some 2 dozen plus awards internationally it doesn't mean its the best or built better just because it got an award. You where saying in your earlier post about "award , award, award . Hey but it has award, hey you are comparing to a maruti but philips as award, you see what I am saying.

20k to 50k for a vacuum cleaner with big aluminum tank? No, sorry. I would rather go with Dyson V11 or something like this if I have that kind of money. And this is what a 'mainstream buyer' would buy. And anyways, for mainstream buyers, a sub-10k cleaner does work very well and these last long. You keep buying 'pro' stuff and beat your chest.

None of the machines I took a demo had a metal tank. All had some seriously good plastic build. Even the accessories like Brushes, nozzle of a karcher WD series which can also fit in their Pro models have big difference in quality compared to consumer one. The Pro level ones plastic quality, brush hair stiffness (i.e when you pull with your hand the consumer ones just comes out vs the pro which doesn't) tolerances are all much different and superior in Pro models. All of the cons stack up in consumer models depending on once budget it can swing you over or not.

It pains to see that your kind is pushed aside for 'normal' buyers, doesn't it? Is this why you are so angry with mainstream consumer tech?

If companies stuck to the good old days and build a product with the engineers mind and not the marketing bottom dollar mind.
Look at a BP monitor from Omron, you got the cheap consumer stuff which is made in China, You have the Japanese made Omron consumer stuff which costs more, people say its calibrated to higher standards. Then there is Pro level BP monitor from Omron, right from the Cuff, to the tube, to the nozzle and socket of the machine its superior, it would have best costed the company some Rs100 to 200 bucks more, yet they sell for atleast 2x to 8x the cost of a consumer model, why because they can.
Take a look at one particular Flir thermal Imaging camera which costs $1000, it software locked to piss poor resolution, despite having the exact same sensor and hardware as a more expensive model why because they can and when people finally found out how to unlock them, they discontinued it.

Anyways, your strong obsessive negativity towards PowePro is misplaced. It is working very well, cleaning is super easy, storing it too is super easy. Thank God I do not have this obsession with industrial-grade cleaners like you and fall for industrial 25L or something wet/dry cleaner. I almost purchased Bosch 15L wet/dry cleaner and I also almost went ahead with American Micronic 21ltr vacuum cleaner. Then I did a further search, took demos, and finalized on PowerPro. If I got an aluminum tank, that would've found a place in the storeroom for a year or two and then sold on the marketplace section here.

If I open a company to offer home cleaning services, I will gladly take your advice and go for industrial cleaners. For single home use, I would stick to mainstream cleaners and probably in the future, invest in robot floor cleaner.

I have only pointed out the cons, that too for another member, in my first post I said it has great suction.
Once again you bought your machine, you don't mind using a extension cord or the noise. So just enjoy the machine. There will always be something better coming out or something other that one may have not known, In many occasions I wish I could have bought something else.

 

[sriharsha_m]

Deerma VC20 has too many complaints about service and QC.
Roidmi comes with puny suction power and I would rather use a broomstick than use something like this.
If I have to buy 2nd-grade and 3rd-grade cleaners from Roidmi etc to have super low weight,
I would rather buy a broomstick that can reach every single corner and it only weighs 200 grams or so[/B].

Saying this again. I have not faced any of the issues that you 'assume' and you never used these. Story with vacuum and needs are different.

The moment you compared something like Philips that got iF design award with Maruti, I understood that you are completely biased and blinded.

Just remember one thing. Suggestions are supposed to be based on buyer requirement, should not be based on your personal bias and your own need. Peace!

Wow. So, you talk so much about German engineering and yet you belittle iF design award that was originally created to highlight German design and has been one of the oldest and most prestigious awards to win. There is a limit to being biased. You sir are blinded by your bias.

If you still believe that this is just another award, there is no point in having this discussion with you as you just want to prove that you are right and that makes your input totally worthless. Have a good day and be happy with your antique tanks.

These are the two brands that you consider as among the best and they truly value iF design awards. If this cannot open your eyes, nothing will!

And as I said many times, you have not used this product and clearly, your so-called drawbacks are purely based on your assumptions and your bias towards old models.

Hmmmm.....

• Roidmi S1 (predecessor to F8 being sold in India ) >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/233235-roidmi-vacuum-cleaner
• Deerma VC20 >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/259444-ultra-light-vacuum-cleaner
• Karcher WD family >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/171823-wd-4-wd-6

 

[rdst_1]

2-3 decades? Seriously? Even if they last, things are changing so fast that it makes sense to change when the time is right instead of just keeping these till they die.

The basic home appliances viz washing machine, refrigerator etc still run on decades old technology. They have only added fancy features which have only made the newer products less reliable.
The commercial grade stuff when it comes to these particular appliances still prefer to stick to the better designs and less features and hence offer longevity.
You can look at any of the offerings from Bluestar if interested in some commercial grade refrigerators. I personally will be buying from the same company which Coke provides to the shopkeepers as I know their north india guy personally.

 

[adder]

If I buy an industrial-grade product instead of 'my choice', will you give me a guarantee that it will work for 10 or 20 years? If it does not, are you ready to refund that entire amount to me because my decision was based on you going ga-ga on these things and how you talk so much that these things last really long and are hassle-free? Will you refund the entire amount to me if I find it a hassle to use these pro products? If you feel so, I am planning to change my fridge this Diwali. I will gladly go with the so-called pro model (pro fridge sounds funny). You send your guarantee in writing on a stamp paper that you take full responsibility for product failure if it happens and you will refund the entire amount. Also, that if there are any problems, you will pay for those charges as well.
Here are some of the reviews for Bosch GAS-12-25. These are 1-star reviews. If this is such an amazing product, every single unit should work long, really long and should be problem-free. There are widespread reports of low suction and there are fitment issues and there are body issues. So, please cut your crap on this 'pro ones are the best and only buy pro ones'. In India, pro is not pro and ultra is not ultra. Every product line has higher failure rate and I cannot and would not blindly go by 'industrial design' tag.

No one has a gun to your head or anyone else here to purchase a product said by any member be it me or anyone else.

As far as guarantee stuff, why the hell would I give you one, are you a 10 year old kid. For Fridge see if you can find one with iF design award. I haven't researched much into commerical fridges. But consumer fridges these day offer a 10 to 12 year warranty on compressor.

There will always be 1 star reviews of virtually every product.
The only 1 star review of GAS-12-25 in amazon india is the product listed in Bosch India is GAS-12-25 but amazon page lists the specs of GAS-12-25-PS which stands for power socket, which allows one to connect a 2000+ watt device to it, like a extension and it works in such a way that for eg If i connect a drill, if I pull the trigger on the drill the vacuum will automatically turn on.
The 2 star review basically a guy complaining it looks old and doesn't click like new vacuums do. Well news flash all vacs from pro division of companies like karcher, bosch,fein, metabo, festool etc from EU countries have a universal mount and attachements work with one another, which is a great postive thing. Just like the SDS drill system is universal for all makes of drill or the OIS system for blades in oscillating tool which bosch again standardized.

Vs a consumer model where it varies from make to model. Hell the Hepa filter, fleece filter for my fein is compatible with certain models from Karcher, bosch top end ones and two other EU companies. See how you have multiple sources to accesories and filters because these companies worked together to standardize it. They may be priced differently from 2k to 10k but its available to buy. or even the clones/after market which are even cheaper.

All of the other reviews are of the GAS15 and it was the weakest in suction power among my demos and is nearly a 10 year old product basically a redisigned GAS20 with same motor. GAS-12-25 is newer model with a completely different motor. GAS15 and Gas20 are half the size of Gas-12-25.

Below link is yours beloved sacred product, oh look did some one say about motor conking off, dang looks like pages of 1star review with motor issues( I Should have just read those 1 star reviews before and linked it here and instead I was explaining why designs like this with low air flow heat up faster, well plenty of users are having issues with this models motor, this really now just gives me more weight on my findings.)

Also review says no spare filters that's a bummer, its a imported machine. Wonder what professional people who use the vacuums as their jobs will do if they don't get spares like filter. Oh wait that is why they use pro level stuff because spares are readily available atleast in major cities.

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[desiibond]

No one has a gun to your head or anyone else here to purchase a product said by any member be it me or anyone else.

As far as guarantee stuff, why the hell would I give you one, are you a 10 year old kid. For Fridge see if you can find one with iF design award. I haven't researched much into commerical fridges. But consumer fridges these day offer a 10 to 12 year warranty on compressor.

Because you are acting as if these things are from another world. If you are so sure these things are rock solid, go ahead and give me guarantee.

There will always be 1 star reviews of virtually every product.
The only 1 star review of GAS-12-25 in amazon india is the product listed in Bosch India is GAS-12-25 but amazon page lists the specs of GAS-12-25-PS which stands for power socket, which allows one to connect a 2000+ watt device to it, like a extension and it works in such a way that for eg If i connect a drill, if I pull the trigger on the drill the vacuum will automatically turn on.

Why is there a bad review? This is a pro grade product. It should be perfect. After all, it costs double or triple that of normal ones.

The 2 star review basically a guy complaining it looks old and doesn't click like new vacuums do. Well news flash all vacs from pro division of companies like karcher, bosch,fein, metabo, festool etc from EU countries have a universal mount and attachements work with one another, which is a great postive thing. Just like the SDS drill system is universal for all makes of drill or the OIS system for blades in oscillating tool which bosch again standardized.

Vs a consumer model where it varies from make to model. Hell the Hepa filter, fleece filter for my fein is compatible with certain models from Karcher, bosch top end ones and two other EU companies. See how you have multiple sources to accesories and filters because these companies worked together to standardize it. They may be priced differently from 2k to 10k but its available to buy. or even the clones/after market which are even cheaper.

All of the other reviews are of the GAS15 and it was the weakest in suction power among my demos and is nearly a 10 year old product basically a redisigned GAS20 with same motor. GAS-12-25 is newer model with a completely different motor. GAS15 and Gas20 are half the size of Gas-12-25.

Below link is yours beloved sacred product, oh look did some one say about motor conking off, dang looks like pages of 1star review with motor issues( I Should have just read those 1 star reviews before and linked it here and instead I was explaining why designs like this with low air flow heat up faster, well plenty of users are having issues with this models motor, this really now just gives me more weight on my findings.)

Obvious. I never said mainstream ones are rock solid and are best. There will be problems. You are the one acting like pro ones are so much better at everything. If that's the case, why are there so many issues for your so balled pro products?
Because, they are just like any other appliances and have their own set of problems. This is why there is no point in paying so much extra for these unless they bring better ease of use, which they do not.

Why should I pay so much more for heavier pro grade ones when they are as much prone to problems and all this when the compact ones are easier to use and maintain?
There are segments where industrial grade products must be preferred. There are people for whom industrial grade works out well. For normal consumer, mainstream cleaners do the job very well and they also keep the bank accounts in better shape. Not to forget the better service reach for these brands that have been here for so long.

Look at average reviews and Powerpro is having much higher rating than Bosch cleaner.
People prefer this model and they are happy. You are unhappy because your favourite model is not preferred and is replaced by these new models.
Heck, you did not even know Powerpro and you have not even tried this one and came out giving gyaan on this.
If you are good at suggesting pro models, stick to that and suggest if one specifically ask for such models. Your knowledge on mainstream models seem to be piss poor and fully biased with hatred. Keep your advice to yourself on mainstream appliances. It will help buyers as they will not overspend on products that are overkill for them.

Also review says no spare filters that's a bummer, its a imported machine. Wonder what professional people who use the vacuums as their jobs will do if they don't get spares like filter. Oh wait that is why they use pro level stuff because spares are readily available atleast in major cities.

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Hmmmm.....

• Roidmi S1 (predecessor to F8 being sold in India ) >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/233235-roidmi-vacuum-cleaner
• Deerma VC20 >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/259444-ultra-light-vacuum-cleaner
• Karcher WD family >> https://ifworlddesignguide.com/entry/171823-wd-4-wd-6

Your point?

I pretty well know that Karcher WD series is good but wet/dry are not meant for everyone. If one needs wet cleaning for sure, yes, Karcher is a very good brand and there are other good brands as well that tender to that user and in such use case, cordless ones are an absolute waste as they cannot do any kind of wet cleaning. So, in short, cordless ones come with limited functionality compared to compact or wet/dry cleaners, cost a lot lot more and lack service reach of long-established brands (well, probably the only exception here for lack of service coverage is Dyson).

The other two are good when not compared to powerful cleaners and as I said, I cannot use them for extended lifting and cleaning. Also, in India, does Deerma have a service network? From what I see, there is no service available here. Why pay extra for this and if something happens, end up with a decorative piece? Correct me if I am wrong about Deerma. Coming to Roidmi, I very well know how Xiaomi and sister brand support quality is. They create innovative products that are worth design awards but when it comes to service quality, they are so much behind established brands. Cannot blame them as they sell on wafer thin margins and it takes a lot of time to establish a service network in a country like India.

The main point being, why pay so much extra for these and compromise on couple of areas, especially service when I can get better and proven ones for a much lower price? They still are underpowered compared to Powerpro and cost lot more.

See, you have a lot of money to burn and your feeling that paying huge premium for cordless cleaners makes sense if you can live with its drawbacks. The majority of consumers like me prefer something that provides a balance of power, use, value for money, and a good service network. When I have a compact cleaner that ticks all boxes, why should I pay so much more to have a subpar experience or pay for an overpriced product with excellent usability that still cannot match canister one's power? It does not make any sense at all.

As long as these things cost so much more than compact cleaners and come with degrading battery, they are not my cup of tea. When capacity improves and price comes down, I would gladly go for a cordless one and combine it with robot vacuum cleaner. Till then......

The basic home appliances viz washing machine, refrigerator etc still run on decades old technology. They have only added fancy features which have only made the newer products less reliable.

Are you sure? Frost-free, for one is not a fancy feature. Double door is not a fancy feature. Front-load for the washing machine is not a fancy feature. The advancements in these two categories made these products easier to use, better on power consumption and they even got better in fabric care. Yes, there are gimmicks like IoT refrigerators but the day is not far off when brands create features that will change the way we use refrigerators.

The commercial grade stuff when it comes to these particular appliances still prefer to stick to the better designs and less features and hence offer longevity.
You can look at any of the offerings from Bluestar if interested in some commercial grade refrigerators. I personally will be buying from the same company which Coke provides to the shopkeepers as I know their north india guy personally.

Does Bluestar have refrigerators for the home? Can you share details of these models?

 

[rdst_1]

Are you sure? Frost-free, for one is not a fancy feature. Double door is not a fancy feature. Front-load for the washing machine is not a fancy feature. The advancements in these two categories made these products easier to use, better on power consumption and they even got better in fabric care. Yes, there are gimmicks like IoT refrigerators but the day is not far off when brands create features that will change the way we use refrigerators.


Does Bluestar have refrigerators for the home? Can you share details of these models?

Frost-free, double door, front load are all decade old features. IFB have been selling fully automatic front load WMs since 1989. And these features have been available abroad for even longer time. Westinghouse started selling frost-free refrigerators back in 1951. So yeah, these are not the fancy features I am talking about. There is not much that has changed for refrigerators and WMs over decades apart from providing gimmicks and repackaging decades old technology and yeah, reduce quality.

As for your second question, Bluestar makes what it makes. It's for you to decide whether you want it for your home or not. Their entire catalog is available on their website. But no, they don't make a product that will look anywhere close to what a normal mainstream home fridge looks like. I don't know what your study background is, but as someone who did engineering, I lay more emphasis on functionality and repairability over other things. And it's completely alright if your emphasis is more on aesthetics, looks, etc. I just made a polite suggestion and you can politely decline it.

 

[desiibond]

Frost-free, double door, front load are all decade old features. IFB have been selling fully automatic front load WMs since 1989. And these features have been available abroad for even longer time. Westinghouse started selling frost-free refrigerators back in 1951. So yeah, these are not the fancy features I am talking about. There is not much that has changed for refrigerators and WMs over decades apart from providing gimmicks and repackaging decades old technology and yeah, reduce quality.

Hmm. agree. Probably one reason why I have no thought of changing my current washing machine and not looking for IoT or whatever for refrigerator.

As for your second question, Bluestar makes what it makes. It's for you to decide whether you want it for your home or not. Their entire catalog is available on their website. But no, they don't make a product that will look anywhere close to what a normal mainstream home fridge looks like. I don't know what your study background is, but as someone who did engineering, I lay more emphasis on functionality and repairability over other things. And it's completely alright if your emphasis is more on aesthetics, looks, etc. I just made a polite suggestion and you can politely decline it.

My need is rather simple. I look for VFM products that do not burn a hole and are reliable enough for long term use. I do not believe that one should always go with industrial grade appliances for home use, unless, the extra price to pay is reasonable. If I have to buy a dishwasher, for example, I would certainly look at Bosch as they are not that costly compared to those from LG or IFB.

Here is a simple calculation that I have. I have need for a GPU, vacuum cleaner, have to buy new tyres for car. I went with a 7k PowerPro and there is no doubt this is an excellent vacuum cleaner and Philips is a very reliable brand. As I did not go with something like V11 that costs some 45k, I am able to select better GPU (hoping to get hold of one in today's 3070FE open sale), and better tyres for my car. Reason being that I have more cash at hand to make better purchases. Even if I compare this with something that costs 15k, I have saved 8k then and there as I went with PowerPro and that 8k gets me 3070 FE over 3060Ti FE. Or I can use that to buy slightly better tyres.

On the whole, I have very good vacuum cleaner and I have better GPU and/or better tyres.

If I end up with endless cash flow with no concern with money at hand, yes, I can think of paying lot more for products like V11. But then again, why would I buy a sluggers like wet/dry cleaners just because they are made by Bosch, when I can pay for combo of Dyson V11 and robot vacuum cleaners that are so much easier to use. This overhyping of products from brands like Bosch should be stopped. Product should be analyzed on various points, not just on brand name.

I have engineering degree and work in IT and I am neither mainstream lover nor industrial design hater. I prefer products that have balanced set of features and not overcharge customers.

And it's completely alright if your emphasis is more on aesthetics, looks, etc. I just made a polite suggestion and you can politely decline it.

you should see my home appliances, if you think my emphasis is on looks/aesthetics.
PS: Back to work week. Keep your posts coming, will reply one weekend starts again.

 

[sriharsha_m]

Your point?

The point here is simple.
The discussion started with vacuum cleaners in general and you turned this into Philips power pro vs the rest of the world thread.

On one hand, you say this and then you do the same.

you have not used this product and clearly, your so-called drawbacks are purely based on your assumptions and your bias towards old models.

Do you see the difference? There is nothing wrong is suggesting but imposing and ridiculing a product category is n00bish behaviour to be frank. Giving advice is free but in this process, some people cross their limits because they simply cannot understand the requirement and need of the other person. They always see the world with their PoV and end up in this kind of state.

In fact, no one had anything against your choice of vaccum, everyone is sharing their point of views on vacuums in general and the available options.

You are the one making assumptions on reading spec on paper and contradicting references.
Even the so-called IF Design award, it's highly coveted for Philips Power Pro and the same is useless when awarded to other models.

Where there is no other valid point to discuss, all you do is take personal potshots

See, you have a lot of money to burn and your feeling that paying huge premium for cordless cleaners makes sense if you can live with its drawbacks. The majority of consumers like me prefer something that provides a balance of power, use, value for money, and a good service network.

Neither do you know my use case, nor do you know my due diligence before buying the said product, but you have assumptions for everyone/every product in this thread?
In the context of burning money, I can point out the cost of the few purchases that you had mentioned in this thread, but what would be the difference if I too take pot shots.
What's dust to you is gold to me and vice versa.

Just to set things straight, I have my fair share of vacuum cleaners ownership experience starting from a 1996 BPL-Sanyo dustbuster followed by several models from Eureka Forbes, Karcher, Black & Decker before ending up with Dyson V11. Not to mention the number of portable handheld vacuums from Bergmann, Black & Decker, Bissel that I stored away in between.
In this journey, I ended up taking a longer home demo of many products from Karcher/Eureka Forbes/Re-branded Bissel models from Eureka Forbes etc.
I have briefly used Roidmi F8 in the UK and in fact pre-ordered Roidmi X20 from Indiegogo when I moved back to India, which they cancelled citing custom issues, at which point I went with Dyson V11.



Unlike the imaginary assumptions, I happened to have hands-on experience with different types of vacuum cleaners over several years, before making an observation from my practical experience.



Not everyone is expected to purchase every available model and get to know it themselves.
I just happened to be someone with OCD and who upgraded the vacuums over years and settled down with something that ticked most of the boxes for my usage, like your Philips one ticked most of the boxes for your use case.

That doesn't mean either Dyson V11 or Philips power pro are the two best vacuums par excellence in the world of vacuum cleaners.

When you talk about so-called customer care/service etc, do you know how many times we had to reach out to customer care in almost 20 years of vacuum cleaners usage?
Once or twice and that too for procuring the filters and dust bags, this was way before online orders had become mainstream.
These are not cupboard warmers and all these machines were abused to the maximum to extract every ounce of suction left on the machines.

Our BPL Sanyo vacuum's age is close to 30 years.
Last I checked a couple of months back, it still turns on and it works, although it so loud to wake up people in the entire apartment.
But, hey it works and the machine has never seen any service centre/nor a replacement part needed.

Reference image in case you assume the product never existed >>

So how many real ownership experiences have you listened to before generalising a few negative reviews on online portals?

How many times do people leave feedback for online orders when they really liked the product? Probably a few instances.
How many times do people leave feedback when they had an issue? Almost every single time.

Happy to have meaningful conversations about vacuums in this thread, but I think it's pretty evident for everyone where these conversations are leading to.

Anyways let me end this conversation by saying the golden words.
Philips power pro is the best vacuum cleaner in the world and is the greatest choice of the century!

 

[adder]

Because you are acting as if these things are from another world. If you are so sure these things are rock solid, go ahead and give me guarantee.

Do you even read what you are typing, you are so childish. Why on earth would I give you a guarantee, that's for the manufacturer to give. Even then people abuse the warranties like operating above its rated specs and procedures or having crappy power or being hit by a lightning.
If all things be equal pro products will without doubt last longer, only a fool will deny that. Even when they do need repairs, spares and support for them are much faster.

Why is there a bad review? This is a pro grade product. It should be perfect. After all, it costs double or triple that of normal ones.

Obvious. I never said mainstream ones are rock solid and are best. There will be problems. You are the one acting like pro ones are so much better at everything. If that's the case, why are there so many issues for your so balled pro products?
Because, they are just like any other appliances and have their own set of problems. This is why there is no point in paying so much extra for these unless they bring better ease of use, which they do not.

Why should I pay so much more for heavier pro grade ones when they are as much prone to problems and all this when the compact ones are easier to use and maintain?
There are segments where industrial grade products must be preferred. There are people for whom industrial grade works out well. For normal consumer, mainstream cleaners do the job very well and they also keep the bank accounts in better shape. Not to forget the better service reach for these brands that have been here for so long.


Look at average reviews and Powerpro is having much higher rating than Bosch cleaner.
People prefer this model and they are happy. You are unhappy because your favourite model is not preferred and is replaced by these new models.
Heck, you did not even know Powerpro and you have not even tried this one and came out giving gyaan on this.
If you are good at suggesting pro models, stick to that and suggest if one specifically ask for such models. Your knowledge on mainstream models seem to be piss poor and fully biased with hatred. Keep your advice to yourself on mainstream appliances. It will help buyers as they will not overspend on products that are overkill for them.

So top spec tank like M1A2 abrams can still be taken down with RPG or a kornet. A F22 or a F35 can still be taken down by the right adversary. These cost several times more then a basic off the shelf stuff from russia and china. So why do you think the US still invests in them, its because the odds of surviving or living to fight another day is more in these then cheap stuff.

Just like that as said plenty of times the Pro level stuff is built better, last longer, easier spares and support. They may lack the bling stuff but they get the Job done running almost daily.

I have not seen the power pro personally, I merely look at the design, motor specs air flow, I came to the conclusions that it would heat up fast. How I know this because I have seen a ton of vacuum cleaners in my lifetime, I still have my 1990 forbes vac. I have gone through several vacs, mostly because they stop selling spares, even have a 110v hoover vac(its runs slower in India using a 220v to 110v converter due to 50hz), thats some where in my tools room. I have tested and demoed some of the best vacuum cleaners out there, not relied on iF award or youtube/online reviews. I took a anemometer, clamp meter and a dB meter to all my demos. I only initially took a clamp meter but some demo people even had the setup ready with those other meters, hence I bought one for my self. So i have lot of practical data on this. Spending that much on a vac is not without through research.

But thanks to your post about the bosch amazon review, I saw the power clean pro amazon 1 star review, there are tons of report of motor burnt issues, do you see why.
So for that single 1 star review on the GAS-12-25 where the user is complaining it lacks a additional power socket feature of EU versions, you go around beating around the bush.

See, you have a lot of money to burn and your feeling that paying huge premium for cordless cleaners makes sense if you can live with its drawbacks. The majority of consumers like me prefer something that provides a balance of power, use, value for money, and a good service network. When I have a compact cleaner that ticks all boxes, why should I pay so much more to have a subpar experience or pay for an overpriced product with excellent usability that still cannot match canister one's power? It does not make any sense at all.

As long as these things cost so much more than compact cleaners and come with degrading battery, they are not my cup of tea. When capacity improves and price comes down, I would gladly go for a cordless one and combine it with robot vacuum cleaner. Till then......

Weren't you saying you are fine with replacing stuff every 3 years. So now you want to tell him he has lot of money to burn. He also appears to have used many corded machines. I know the merits of cordless, If I had a cordless Vac, I would use it majority of the time. He has used both and he knows the merits otherwise he wouldn't have spent that much on a cordless machine.

Are you sure? Frost-free, for one is not a fancy feature. Double door is not a fancy feature. Front-load for the washing machine is not a fancy feature. The advancements in these two categories made these products easier to use, better on power consumption and they even got better in fabric care. Yes, there are gimmicks like IoT refrigerators but the day is not far off when brands create features that will change the way we use refrigerators.

Lol frost free, double door, front load are the most basic stuff, what world are you living in.