Where this country is heading - do you have any hope ?

[NotMyRealName]

'Think of the poor' is a cliched talking point.

Every system will fall short when compared to an imaginary utopia. What are your political beliefs/affiliations? Has <whatever your political ideology is> served the underprivileged better than this one?

As for building monuments, every civilization since the dawn of humanity has built 'useless' monuments. So nothing new here. Unless you take the view that every 'useless' monument ever built should be demolished and space freed up to house the poor or build schools, your argument is on thin ice.

It may be cliched today but it doesn't mean we the better-off should stop taking care of our brethren. If there is any humanity left that is...

Anyway, i got your point, so let me try and put this another way using a different example.

My house has a leaky roof and water is dripping into the rooms. However instead of fixing the leaks and sleeping comfortably inside, i decided to renovate my front door and build a huge, decorative, fancy one with a nice big arch on top as well. Coz this is what my neighbors see and judge my standards on. And maybe next society elections, they will vote me into the secretary/chairman post. This is pretty much what this whole state exercise is.

 

[NotMyRealName]

I don't care which political party built this statue - I would still criticise them regardless. It's a waste of time and money.

I remember when the previous govt mooted the shivaji statue project. We were all up in arms against it. Nothing to do with the bjp then.

On a related note, at that time it was cancelled coz they couldn't get the required environmental clearances. Has the environment suddenly become more accommodating that it could now handle the world's tallest statue?

 

[dpandey]

Well, who exactly set those standards?

That is the million dollar question. I am not sure if anyone knows the answer. Manipulation of human minds is now a very sophisticated game.

I still have to deal with family members who support Congress and AAP. Nehruvian socialist nonsense is programmed deep into our psyche.

But you don't think that people who hold them to those same higher standards that they set for themselves?

Hold them up to whatever standard you want to. But any party using the 'think of the poor' argument should read up the quote about glasshouses and stones.

Anyone arguing about 'this party or politician is corrupt or wasteful' doesn't fully understand how political power works.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

What is the difference between a cheap phone and a costly phone that has the same technical specs. The costly brand claims that they are made to higher standards and you hold them to it. You don't give much of a damn when the cheap one fails, but won't ignore it when the one claiming higher standards as its USP fails. Do you think it is double standards to do judge based on the standards they claim?

When a politician claims that they are different than others and brag about higher standards, they should be held to it and judged by it. Your opinion is that these politicians should be able to brag what they want, even get votes because of that, but should not be held to those standards they set for themselves because at the end of the day they are no different than any other corrupt politician across any party.

Many people criticizing BJP also criticize other parties because none of them hold up to the standards they desire. But on the other hand, for the political butt kissers of BJP, they criticize other parties for some thing, but the same would be acceptable when BJP does it and even justify it. So, If congress for instance were to spend this much money to build the same statue for the same person who happens to be one of its strongest leaders, The people criticizing it now would still do the same, but all hell would have broken lose from BJP and its supporters about how money is being wasted to build statures (as has been the case in the past), but it is more than acceptable to them if BJP does it and it doesn't even matter whose stature they erect. They could have setup a stature of Adolf Hitler and BJP fans would be posting on social media and whatsapp how great he was and why its justified to have a stature of Hitler in India.So maybe its for those people to ponder why something would becomes acceptable when their favorite party does it when its not acceptable from another.

 

[dpandey]

When a politician claims that they are different than others and brag about higher standards, they should be held to it and judged by it.

Fair point. However, one should know the difference between a critic and an enemy. Your enemy can use your desire for a higher standard to bring you down. This is a fairly well documented tactic and often used in politics (Saul Alinsky's Rule 4).

Closer home, we have the story of Karn (Mahabharat) whose enemies defeated him by making him follow his own rule.

Real life, unfortunately, is messy. I want to maintain a high standard for myself. Critics are welcome. Enemies, not so much.

 

[cool_cat]

RSS-BJP will be elected to power in 2019. The sad truth. Don't know what kind of atrocities we will have to face in this country. 2002 Icons will still rule the country till radicalism subdues after few decades.

 

[Lord Nemesis]

Fair point. However, one should know the difference between a critic and an enemy. Your enemy can use your desire for a higher standard to bring you down. This is a fairly well documented tactic and often used in politics (Saul Alinsky's Rule 4).

Closer home, we have the story of Karn (Mahabharat) whose enemies defeated him by making him follow his own rule.

Real life, unfortunately, is messy. I want to maintain a high standard for myself. Critics are welcome. Enemies, not so much.

Why should that be a problem when someone is living up to the standards that they proclaim they do. Why would an enemy be be able to touch them when they live up to the rules that they set for themselves. See, the problem is only when when someone can't keep their big mouth shut and brag about things they cannot or don't intend to live up to. That allows their adversaries the opportunity call out their hypocrisy and kick them where is it hurts and I would consider being humiliated (assuming they still have any shame at all) that way to be a good thing.

Politicians make tall claims that they never for a moment intended to live up to and their critics as well as adversaries expose each others hypocrisy. Why would you not want that to happen. Its a much needed reality check even for the idiotic people who take them seriously.

There are people who still in 2018 were stupid enough to believe that Modi is going to deposit 15 lac into their accounts from all the black money he brings back as he promised in his election campaigns. They even believed that Jan Dhan bank accounts were preparation for that. So why would not want their bubbles of stupidity to be burst by politicians calling each other out.

 

[nimod]

Fair point. However, one should know the difference between a critic and an enemy. Your enemy can use your desire for a higher standard to bring you down. This is a fairly well documented tactic and often used in politics (Saul Alinsky's Rule 4).

Closer home, we have the story of Karn (Mahabharat) whose enemies defeated him by making him follow his own rule.

Real life, unfortunately, is messy. I want to maintain a high standard for myself. Critics are welcome. Enemies, not so much.

You have totally ignored the original persons in questions. The politicians.
Why are you comparing critics with enemies? There's no war here.
We are here talking about Dharma. A politician's Dharma.
Have you tried thinking about these politician in light of Anushashan Parva (in the same Mahabharat)?

 

[blr_p]

As for building monuments, every civilization since the dawn of humanity has built 'useless' monuments. So nothing new here. Unless you take the view that every 'useless' monument ever built should be demolished and space freed up to house the poor or build schools, your argument is on thin ice.

Exactly, this is a symbolic gesture in recognition of services rendered by Sardar Patel whose value has only increased over time.

 

[dpandey]

Why would an enemy be be able to touch them when they live up to the rules that they set for themselves.

I hope you were not serious about this. This is right up there with "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry" and "If you are not guilty, why don't you ask for an FBI investigation."

For the past few years, I have been trying to educate myself on how political subversion works. This kind of thinking has been used by radicals to destroy functioning systems throughout the 20th century (and continues into 21st).

See, the problem is only when when someone can't keep their big mouth shut and brag about things they cannot or don't intend to live up to.

Amen to that. Everyone in India would benefit for promising less and doing more.

Politicians make tall claims that they never for a moment intended to live up to and their critics as well as adversaries expose each others hypocrisy. Why would you not want that to happen. Its a much needed reality check even for the idiotic people who take them seriously.

Again, fully agree with you. However, you should be able to see the difference between a critic who wants things to get better and one who is just upset his friends are not getting the kickbacks. There are far more of the second kind than the first.

I am specially suspicious of people who are unwilling to declare their bias when launching a seemingly principled attack. You end up debating against an imagined utopia, a battle I cannot win.

 

[dpandey]

You have totally ignored the original persons in questions. The politicians.
Why are you comparing critics with enemies? There's no war here.
We are here talking about Dharma. A politician's Dharma.
Have you tried thinking about these politician in light of Anushashan Parva (in the same Mahabharat)?

I don't know what kind of a response you are looking for. I know that govt/politics in India mostly sucks. I have been in the receiving end quite a few times (including a messy legal case a close one is going through as I write).

My only beef is with opportunists who use someone's misfortune to launch partisan attacks.

 

[chiron]

so many partisans, opportunists and enemies trying to bring this govt down.[DOUBLEPOST=1541266410][/DOUBLEPOST]i think the sc judgement in sabarimala was timed by the bjp government to create an issue to get back some of the support in kerala that got washed away during the floods. what do you call those tactics?

 

[Lord Nemesis]

This is right up there with "If you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry" and "If you are not guilty, why don't you ask for an FBI investigation."

No, It isn't. What makes you think it will falls into that category? When you follow the rules and standards you claim to follow, your adversaries will not have a chance to use it against you. Your point was about using ones own rules against them. One will be able to use somebodies own rules to attack them only when they are not following those rules on their own. If they are already following them, how will they use it against them. They will have to come up with something else to attack. They wont' have the benefit of being truthful when calling that somebody a hypocrite. If they have to resort to lying, it is is no different than using lies against anybody else. They are then just using lies, not their own rules to attack.

 

[NotMyRealName]

i think the sc judgement in sabarimala was timed by the bjp government to create an issue to get back some of the support in kerala that got washed away during the floods. what do you call those tactics?

My guess is they did it to try to destabilize the state govt. in their futile attempts to make inroads into state poltics. This is my conspiracy theory, but yours is also plausible.

 

[chiron]

I don't really think of it as a conspiracy. There was a need to have the judgement out before the pilgrimage season as BJP's spin during the floods worked against them so they needed an alternative. BJP has got a a lot of interest in making further inroads into Kerala as even a single seat here would be a huge victory and talking point for them.

Everyone is playing politics; the state govt's response is also them hitting back at the BJP for putting them in a vice. I am so glad that the biggest loser in this was the Congress party with Rahul having to make a statement distancing himself from the state party members. Chennithala is a vermin.

 

[dpandey]

No, It isn't. What makes you think it will falls into that category? When you follow the rules and standards you claim to follow, your adversaries will not have a chance to use it against you.

Sure, I will explain.

In real terms the statement translates to "The higher you try to rise, the harder we will try to pull you down."

For example, this kind of thinking gives legitimacy to pakis to lecture India on its record on secularism or religious freedom. Their cover? We don't do secularism or have religious freedom, so we cannot be held accountable for our failings on these fronts. This was used by lefties in US to go after Trump for failure to build the wall or drain the swamp (neither of which they are really interested in). You can find many example of this technique in Indian political debates.

This is a classic leftist technique. The goal is to pervert the moral landscape where anyone trying to do better (which will inevitably involve failure) can be punished for his attempt. It gives a lot of leverage to dishonest people in search of power.

I will repeat. I am not against anyone criticizing. But if you are unaware of the techniques of deception, you will end up with a bad bargain in life.

Anyway, I am going to bail out of this thread (unless there is a specific question).

 

[chiron]

Thanks for bailing out of this thread (unless there is a specific question).

 

[Lord Nemesis]

The higher you try to rise, the harder somebody tries to pull you down. Somebody or the other is always trying to get at you. That comes with the territory of life. Nobody said walking the talk is easy. There is nothing new about failures in life being punished either. But if somebody were sincerely trying, no body punishes them more for failing their own rules and standards than their own conscience. If somebody is cribbing about adversaries using their own rules against them, then it means they were never sincere about it to begin with. If your enemy has a means to attack you using nothing but the bare truth, then there is problem with you right there. Don't brag about standards that you cannot live by. The moment somebody decides to claim that they are better than somebody else, then they better be ready to be judged when they fail.

When your entire cabinet is filled with corruption, don't try to proclaim that you are better than the other party and then call it hypocrisy when they expose your own corruption and hypocrisy.

 

[chetansha]

Hung house 2019.
We will see 3rd front led govt with Cong support from outside.

 

[blr_p]

heh, already the predictions are coming.

They said the same thing about the Karnataka elections as well.

They also said as Karnataka votes so does the rest of the country the year after.

We will see