PC Peripherals Why are we obsessed with high power PSU's ?
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>> I have a strong feeling this topic is all bluster and flamebait aimed at those who suggest quality products.
Im new to TE, trying to set up a name for myself and have absolutely no intention of getting into anybody's bad books. Im old enough to understand what is a genuine question and what is a flame bait and have no intention of getting personal as you have.
>> But calling out senior members who take a little effort to push people to invest in quality is frankly, unwarranted.
I still stand by my original question, which if you care to read properly gave some facts and numbers and asked the experts as to why a high wattage PSU is required and suggested in almost every case. I have seen tons of reasons from some posts as to why it is required and am reasonably satisfied.
>> Your thread title is totally misleading and flamebaiting, and your posts do not contain a shred of information apart from conjecture.
I never started the thread saying Im know all and the recommendations are wrong. I joined TE when I wanted a PSU, ended up reading a lot of threads and getting the Antech 650w for my system. When I did the measurements, I felt that such a high wattage expensive PSU was not required and so my thread was a honest question.
I have lived for many years in the US where good stuff is available for great prices. So I never had the issue with worrying about cheap products that have misleading wattage stickers. If I had a better choice, I would have presented it in the first post.
Im new to TE, trying to set up a name for myself and have absolutely no intention of getting into anybody's bad books. Im old enough to understand what is a genuine question and what is a flame bait and have no intention of getting personal as you have.
>> But calling out senior members who take a little effort to push people to invest in quality is frankly, unwarranted.
I still stand by my original question, which if you care to read properly gave some facts and numbers and asked the experts as to why a high wattage PSU is required and suggested in almost every case. I have seen tons of reasons from some posts as to why it is required and am reasonably satisfied.
>> Your thread title is totally misleading and flamebaiting, and your posts do not contain a shred of information apart from conjecture.
I never started the thread saying Im know all and the recommendations are wrong. I joined TE when I wanted a PSU, ended up reading a lot of threads and getting the Antech 650w for my system. When I did the measurements, I felt that such a high wattage expensive PSU was not required and so my thread was a honest question.
I have lived for many years in the US where good stuff is available for great prices. So I never had the issue with worrying about cheap products that have misleading wattage stickers. If I had a better choice, I would have presented it in the first post.
>> About the thread title, using 'we' is inappropriate as the OP is clearly not a part of that 'we'.
Nope, Im trying to decide where to stand as Im clearly not a expert in PSU's !!! I still do not understand why folks are not believing that I had a honest question and asked the same.
>> Vinaynaga- how old are you?
Its Vinayaga ! Im all of 35 years old, two kids and still young enough to play games on the comp and have fun !!!
>> Do you own a car or some other product worthy of a premium tag and something you are usually proud of owning?
Yup, this might need to go to the showoff thread. Im reasonally well settled in Bangalore, have a Elantra Car, a Thunderbird bike and a Honda Activa. Im proud of each of them !!!
>> All that is called as wastage. :cool2:
Yup, I teach this to my kids now a days ! Which is why I got into this project to measure and save power. See, its great to think philosophically and say that I want to just do it for the planet, but the fact is that if I can save a little on my bills in the process, I would have more incentive to do it.
>> That's why knowledgeable and reputed seniors at "good" technical forums always recommend the best.
Agreed, but if the seniors (Probably by experience and not by age) recommend XYZ as the product, why are some folks having a problem explaining why they are recommending it in the first place. I asked for a reason why the high wattage super efficient PSU's are being recommended when my measured numbers show a different case and I think I have got my answer. If asking someone why something is being pushed is a crime, then this forum is the wrong place for people seeking information.
In some ways, it almost seems like, we know the best and are giving you the right answers, so take it and do not cross question with data. If you question our recommendation, we will throw thrash at you and question your motives.
That sadly my friend is what makes the newbies shy away from asking the relevant questions.
Nope, Im trying to decide where to stand as Im clearly not a expert in PSU's !!! I still do not understand why folks are not believing that I had a honest question and asked the same.
>> Vinaynaga- how old are you?
Its Vinayaga ! Im all of 35 years old, two kids and still young enough to play games on the comp and have fun !!!
>> Do you own a car or some other product worthy of a premium tag and something you are usually proud of owning?
Yup, this might need to go to the showoff thread. Im reasonally well settled in Bangalore, have a Elantra Car, a Thunderbird bike and a Honda Activa. Im proud of each of them !!!
>> All that is called as wastage. :cool2:
Yup, I teach this to my kids now a days ! Which is why I got into this project to measure and save power. See, its great to think philosophically and say that I want to just do it for the planet, but the fact is that if I can save a little on my bills in the process, I would have more incentive to do it.
>> That's why knowledgeable and reputed seniors at "good" technical forums always recommend the best.
Agreed, but if the seniors (Probably by experience and not by age) recommend XYZ as the product, why are some folks having a problem explaining why they are recommending it in the first place. I asked for a reason why the high wattage super efficient PSU's are being recommended when my measured numbers show a different case and I think I have got my answer. If asking someone why something is being pushed is a crime, then this forum is the wrong place for people seeking information.
In some ways, it almost seems like, we know the best and are giving you the right answers, so take it and do not cross question with data. If you question our recommendation, we will throw thrash at you and question your motives.
That sadly my friend is what makes the newbies shy away from asking the relevant questions.
I got my first 2MP Digital Camera in 1999 for a full $750. Since then manufacturer's have been pushing higher and higher MP's down our throats with every reviewer and expert saying more is "better" and you get bigger prints. And I have kept upgrading every two years and have finally settled with a 6MP Digital SLR that gives me prints as big as a I realistically want. Now 10MP camera's are the hot thing. Finally camera makers have realized that the megapixel war is over and 10-12mp is as much as a average consume will ever need. The average Joe clicking pictures of of his children and vacations does not need 10mp, yet there is a line of people buying it because it is the "in" thing. I was worried that the same game is happening in the PSU world and hence the thread.
Rockfella said:
I'm not. After a so called high end PSU died and took my ailing motherboard with it, I've stuck with cheap PSU's.granted that my rigs are regular workhorses , nothing fancy.
the chinese OE PSU that came with the cabby, and what was swapped out for the big 500W psu is still chugging along nicely ( needed a fan regreasing a while back).. thats pretty much it.
I for one wont be spending my money on a fancy PSU any time soon
the chinese OE PSU that came with the cabby, and what was swapped out for the big 500W psu is still chugging along nicely ( needed a fan regreasing a while back).. thats pretty much it.
I for one wont be spending my money on a fancy PSU any time soon
Like I said, it's good you measured the power draw from the wall. But the usage of the word 'obsessed' and the tone in the posts seemed to indicate that advice that tilts a person towards a quality product is incorrect/misleading.
Your contribution till post 46 had been to raise a question and not answer it. Investigation is not about asking questions, it's about finding solutions. If you notice, we haven't yet found a solution, because your question is about the advice that members give, not about the choice of power supply.
If you said (and I think another member has) "Efficient low-power PSU search" or something similar, with a budget in mind, that's a question to which there's a solution. As it stands, the thread is about why members of TE are dispensing (and in your mind, incorrectly) advice that plants the VX450 as the solution to all questions. That is my specific issue with the topic. Had you tempered with saying "I think the xyz power supply is as good as the VX450" well, there would be some fruitful discussion.
And this is not aimed at you alone. You'll notice how the thread has been split down the middle (thanks Greenie for a nice counterpoint of view) between yays and nays. That's what flamebait does, intentionally or not.
About the TG500, it's surely a good supply (I seen it run a 4870X2 without skipping a beat), but IMO, it's not worth ~3.4K. Tagan is its own OEM, fortunately or not. Their higher-end supplies have been tested and found to have unacceptable amounts of ripple on all the rails, I don't know how bad the Stonerock series will be, given that it is their cheapest line. At 3k it would have been a decent buy though...
Your contribution till post 46 had been to raise a question and not answer it. Investigation is not about asking questions, it's about finding solutions. If you notice, we haven't yet found a solution, because your question is about the advice that members give, not about the choice of power supply.
If you said (and I think another member has) "Efficient low-power PSU search" or something similar, with a budget in mind, that's a question to which there's a solution. As it stands, the thread is about why members of TE are dispensing (and in your mind, incorrectly) advice that plants the VX450 as the solution to all questions. That is my specific issue with the topic. Had you tempered with saying "I think the xyz power supply is as good as the VX450" well, there would be some fruitful discussion.
And this is not aimed at you alone. You'll notice how the thread has been split down the middle (thanks Greenie for a nice counterpoint of view) between yays and nays. That's what flamebait does, intentionally or not.
About the TG500, it's surely a good supply (I seen it run a 4870X2 without skipping a beat), but IMO, it's not worth ~3.4K. Tagan is its own OEM, fortunately or not. Their higher-end supplies have been tested and found to have unacceptable amounts of ripple on all the rails, I don't know how bad the Stonerock series will be, given that it is their cheapest line. At 3k it would have been a decent buy though...
I used to run a game zone and was stuck with reboots almost everytime the power went off. Changing the UPSes didn't do no good. The PSUs were the generic iBall ones. Once I replaced them with Powersafes or something like that (used to retail for 1k+ and the generics were I think 200bux or so), bang, problem solved. Mind you, they were all running on-boards.
The 1st gaming rig I built wouldn't even run for a 15min gaming session with the generics. After a lot of trouble shooting, got my 1st Antec then. Guess what, problem solved!
I never hesitate to buy the best PSU I can afford. Why? So I don't have to upgrade the most important component in my rig. Platforms change in a blink of an eye, power requirements are not that finicky. My present PSU should last me till I shift to the next platform. FYI, the power draw as shown in my UPS is arnd 600+ watts while gaming and a measly 380 something on idle. But I bet the usage will bump up a bit when I add another card or two! 1000 watts might be overkill right now, but I won't have to buy another PSU once I go SLi. + 1000 watts is good for the rig gallery and siggy too!
@OP, just to clear up things, are you suggesting that the recomendations for the VX450s are un justified or were you talking about PSUs like mine? See, I sell and service computers too and in my line of work, most assembled PCs almost always have problems where the PSU or board is smoked. Most of the time, the PSUs are generic. The PSUs with HP/ Compaq desktops last longer so I wouldn't mind suggesting those types for plain jane rigs. But for gaming and high end systems, it would be hard for me to recomend anything but the most affordable Corsair/ CMs (non extreme, of course). Now if you would suggest something else instead of a "do we really need a 450 watts PSU" and actually talk about quality and stability, I'm game.
Btw, the number of systems with generic PSUs I've seen smoked are quite high. Most ppl who repair/ service PCs would also see the same trend. Generic PSUs+burnt components usually go hand in hand.
The 1st gaming rig I built wouldn't even run for a 15min gaming session with the generics. After a lot of trouble shooting, got my 1st Antec then. Guess what, problem solved!
I never hesitate to buy the best PSU I can afford. Why? So I don't have to upgrade the most important component in my rig. Platforms change in a blink of an eye, power requirements are not that finicky. My present PSU should last me till I shift to the next platform. FYI, the power draw as shown in my UPS is arnd 600+ watts while gaming and a measly 380 something on idle. But I bet the usage will bump up a bit when I add another card or two
! 1000 watts might be overkill right now, but I won't have to buy another PSU once I go SLi. + 1000 watts is good for the rig gallery and siggy too!@OP, just to clear up things, are you suggesting that the recomendations for the VX450s are un justified or were you talking about PSUs like mine? See, I sell and service computers too and in my line of work, most assembled PCs almost always have problems where the PSU or board is smoked. Most of the time, the PSUs are generic. The PSUs with HP/ Compaq desktops last longer so I wouldn't mind suggesting those types for plain jane rigs. But for gaming and high end systems, it would be hard for me to recomend anything but the most affordable Corsair/ CMs (non extreme, of course). Now if you would suggest something else instead of a "do we really need a 450 watts PSU" and actually talk about quality and stability, I'm game.
Btw, the number of systems with generic PSUs I've seen smoked are quite high. Most ppl who repair/ service PCs would also see the same trend. Generic PSUs+burnt components usually go hand in hand.
Yes to end it, in the future if i ever buy a non gaming rig, i would atleast go with a Corsair CX400W. I still use Corsair VX450W with a measly power requirement.
Naga said:I used to run a game zone and was stuck with reboots almost everytime the power went off. Changing the UPSes didn't do no good. The PSUs were the generic iBall ones. Once I replaced them with Powersafes or something like that (used to retail for 1k+ and the generics were I think 200bux or so), bang, problem solved. Mind you, they were all running on-boards.
The 1st gaming rig I built wouldn't even run for a 15min gaming session with the generics. After a lot of trouble shooting, got my 1st Antec then. Guess what, problem solved!
I never hesitate to buy the best PSU I can afford. Why? So I don't have to upgrade the most important component in my rig. Platforms change in a blink of an eye, power requirements are not that finicky. My present PSU should last me till I shift to the next platform. FYI, the power draw as shown in my UPS is arnd 600+ watts while gaming and a measly 380 something on idle. But I bet the usage will bump up a bit when I add another card or two
@OP, just to clear up things, are you suggesting that the recomendations for the VX450s are un justified or were you talking about PSUs like mine? See, I sell and service computers too and in my line of work, most assembled PCs almost always have problems where the PSU or board is smoked. Most of the time, the PSUs are generic. The PSUs with HP/ Compaq desktops last longer so I wouldn't mind suggesting those types for plain jane rigs. But for gaming and high end systems, it would be hard for me to recomend anything but the most affordable Corsair/ CMs (non extreme, of course). Now if you would suggest something else instead of a "do we really need a 450 watts PSU" and actually talk about quality and stability, I'm game.
Btw, the number of systems with generic PSUs I've seen smoked are quite high. Most ppl who repair/ service PCs would also see the same trend. Generic PSUs+burnt components usually go hand in hand.
Naga said:. FYI, the power draw as shown in my UPS is arnd 600+ watts while gaming and a measly 380 something on idle. But I bet the usage will bump up a bit when I add another card or two
well 380watts at idle is a lot ,but i guess that includes the power consumption of ur monitor and other stuff connected to the UPS.
BIKeINSTEIN
Herald
m0h1t said:
This post may be of some help.
http://www.techenclave.com/pc-peripherals/corsair-vx-450w-vs-coolermaster-extreme-128757.html
I sincerely know nothing but tried to put across some points i learnt from really knowledgable people.
vinayaga said:
Nice.
vinayaga said:
By the same logic,
why not a Splendor/Unicorn/... instead of the Thunderbird?
Why not a WagonR/Santro/something instead if the Elantra?
vinayaga said:
One has to ask the right question to get the right answer.
No one has any problems answering anything.
I just wrote an essay to reply to your query and didn't repeat the usual power/quality/'trueness of ratings'/... related points i keep ranting every time as it seemed covered by others.
Please do check the link posted above in reply to moh1t's post.
We have had tons of threads where people questioned why a Corsair VX450 is better than a CM extreme power 600 (actually not worth comparing imho), especially at a time when both were almost evenly priced.
That maybe Distro/Dealer greed due to higher demand has seen Vx450 prices go up is sad.
Still 500 bucks is not worth compromising for quality when you have comparatively poorer offerings at 3.5K odd.
You bought an AntecEA650 as per some suggestions- your wish and your own decision too.
Looking at your quadcore-based rig specs, i would have said get VX450 if you have no plans of upgrading the same later.
vinayaga said:
Inanimate medium- that's why one has to be cautious about what is posted.
When calmer, reread the title of the thread, the first post, the following few replies and you will see that the mood for this thread was set way before the relevant replies started.
Since this is a discussion, rebuttals to others queries/posts toeing the same line as the OP may be replied to cumulatively.
No offence.
Please use quote/multi-quote.
Going through everything... frankly, I'm bit confused.
1) I still think OP's main question is about High-wattage PSU... frankly, I personally don't think VX450 can be called High-wattage PSU.
2) Cranky is rebutting on the point of Cost to Quality equation and while he's correct... that currently good quality PSU's are almost non-existent at lower price spectrum. So long story short, if you're looking for good quality PSU think 2.5k upwards.
3) So when I think of everything posted here... I'm now wondering, if OP is questioning about High-Wattage PSU or High-price PSU? Because I still can't think of VX450 or even CX400 as high-wattage PSUs. 400-450 is quite standard for most of the generic gaming rigs with decent graphic card. I spent 6k for TX650, while my config (as shown in siggy) not necessarily require it. But, this keeps me lot upgrade options open without having to upgrade my PSU. 650W... now that is high-wattage... but you don't see many people suggesting it unless the inquirer's requirement it as such.
4) @OP: To some extent I believe BIKeINSTEIN already answered your query, as quoted below:
1) I still think OP's main question is about High-wattage PSU... frankly, I personally don't think VX450 can be called High-wattage PSU.
2) Cranky is rebutting on the point of Cost to Quality equation and while he's correct... that currently good quality PSU's are almost non-existent at lower price spectrum. So long story short, if you're looking for good quality PSU think 2.5k upwards.
3) So when I think of everything posted here... I'm now wondering, if OP is questioning about High-Wattage PSU or High-price PSU? Because I still can't think of VX450 or even CX400 as high-wattage PSUs. 400-450 is quite standard for most of the generic gaming rigs with decent graphic card. I spent 6k for TX650, while my config (as shown in siggy) not necessarily require it. But, this keeps me lot upgrade options open without having to upgrade my PSU. 650W... now that is high-wattage... but you don't see many people suggesting it unless the inquirer's requirement it as such.
4) @OP: To some extent I believe BIKeINSTEIN already answered your query, as quoted below:
BIKeINSTEIN said:
bikey, the elantra/thrunderbird have real and tangible benefits to anyone.
I think a more appropriate comparison would be to, say synth oil as opposed to mineral, or K&N filters as opposed to paper filters, or cold plugs as opposed to stock, or Monster or chord cable as opposed to lamp cord
I think a more appropriate comparison would be to, say synth oil as opposed to mineral, or K&N filters as opposed to paper filters, or cold plugs as opposed to stock, or Monster or chord cable as opposed to lamp cord
I guess that includes the power drawn by the UPS itself to charge its own batteries. Im also seeing insane numbers when I measure the current drawn by the UPS with my computer connected to it. I guess that the UPS always keeps charging its battery while providing uninterrupted power from the mains.
Just having a UPS increases the power being used. Food for thought, huh ?
Just having a UPS increases the power being used. Food for thought, huh ?
adder said:
Yup, that is more like it. The Thunderbird bike is just for standing out from the Pulsar crowd ! Everyone sees it and appreciates it, its is more like your computer cabinet.
On the other hand, a synthetic oil versus normal oil is a good analogy to the PSU. Nobody sees it, but the driver can feel the tangible benefits and the smoothness in the drive !!! :hap2:
On the other hand, a synthetic oil versus normal oil is a good analogy to the PSU. Nobody sees it, but the driver can feel the tangible benefits and the smoothness in the drive !!! :hap2:
greenhorn said:bikey, the elantra/thrunderbird have real and tangible benefits to anyone.
I think a more appropriate comparison would be to, say synth oil as opposed to mineral, or K&N filters as opposed to paper filters, or cold plugs as opposed to stock, or Monster or chord cable as opposed to lamp cord
Point taken and well appreciated. Im also clear now why a branded well known PSU is required in "most" cases.
Thanks all for your inputs. For those of you who had sent me a PM asking about the "kill a watt" DIY kit, I have provided the steps in my blog. You can read the same here:
Random musings...: "Kill A Watt" for 220v !
I hope it is okay to provide a link to my blog because it is painful sending each of you a PM with the link and then waiting for one minute before I can send the next one !
Thanks all for your inputs. For those of you who had sent me a PM asking about the "kill a watt" DIY kit, I have provided the steps in my blog. You can read the same here:
Random musings...: "Kill A Watt" for 220v !
I hope it is okay to provide a link to my blog because it is painful sending each of you a PM with the link and then waiting for one minute before I can send the next one !
cranky said:
No, it does not. The calibration of most UPS software is totally shot. You'll get higher readings, but wait till you switch the power off. The readings go up by 20-30%. Try it out, switch the power off and keep the rig running. See how much the power consumption goes to.
The reason for this is that PSUs actually are very dirty devices. They interact with the line and have a power draw pattern that does not correspond with normal resistive loads like a fan or a light. The 'Active PFC' PSUs are slightly better, but still terrible. It's impossible to get correct power consumption readings from a device that is drawing power every 100ms and off every 200, and then that itself changes as the load varies. The only accurate way to do that is sample-and-hold, and those meters cost a lot of money - I think only the utility companies actually have the right equipment.
The indicator is UPS software is good for an approximate reading. The fact is that it is off by 15% in any direction at least.
And yes, having a UPS increases the consumption, if your batteries are drained. When the battery is fully charged, the draw is inconsequential, a few watts at most. It is pointless to get a UPS if your power situation does not warrant it. I didn't use one is five years of being in Mumbai, but the power situation here is pathetic and the UPS lets me properly shutdown my machines.
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