PC Peripherals Why do so many Razer mice...

[KingKrool]

^^ well then your definitions are wrong.

All the issues with the CH, were fixed only because of the Firmware Upgrades.

Im sure Razer knew that there were issues at launch, but due to the Firmware upgradability, they released it anyways, with the Issues fixed with later firmwares.

KingKrool, I guess your not a gamer. Those "bunch" of extra buttons, really help gamers, and that "Driver which affects performance in any way" is really important to FPS Gamers, for them to customise the mouse to how they like it.

Clearly you didn't read anything I said.

I said that in a mouse, the drivers shouldn't be required to do anything other than support the extra buttons, and that firmware upgrades should NOT be necessary.

Why are you glorifying firmware upgrades? They are painful, and shouldn't be required for a device as simple as a mouse.

Neither should drivers (or rather updates to them) affect the performance of that mouse... unless the original drivers were hopelessly faulty.

Maybe you should see the definition of device drivers, and then figure out where drivers should be able to affect performance, and when they should only be functional.

The problem is that you are used to driver updates due to using gfx cards, and you think that such updates/upgrades for a mouse are valid. Can you tell me the difference between a mouse and gfx card wrt signal processing? That should clarify stuff.

 

[Vij]

lol this is a GO killer....

repped u ashr

 

[Aditya]

@ KK, Have you even seen the Razer Drivers?

Have you seen the amount of Customisability they bring in?

No.. right?

Go have a look...

Also, the mouse works without drivers you know.. Just not at 1000Hz, only 500Hz. Which most people use anyways :S.

Also, the extra mouse buttons work without the Drivers too.

KK, you may be good at

Compiling the Linux Kernel Genesis of C C Faq Unix Specification Incompatibilities between ISO C and C++

blah blah blah and more, but when it comes to Gaming and Gaming hardware, I dont think you do know anything about it..

@ AshR, Every new product, or almost every new product, have issues at launch. So what if Razer has a few more, they do get around to fixing it.

 

[KingKrool]

Dude, you didn't answer the question - why should a driver upgrade (you may notice that I asked about updates) help?

The level of sophistication in a mouse computer interaction is not that high that driver upgrades be required.

Answer the question and you will see my point.

As you may notice, I validated functionality enchancements via drivers. Performance should not be via drivers for a mouse (excluding the frequency). And definitely not firmware.

Answer me this - why do driver updates help to improve performance of nvidia and ATI gfx cards by such huge amounts? Why do they do practically nothing for your printer??

 

[Aces170]

Maybe KK what he is trying to say, ok the hardware is all there, but the interface between itself and the OS is not developed quickly enough before the introduction of the mice. hence the developers need to release drivers and firware updates.

Same in the case with Optical devices especially writers.

 

[KingKrool]

What I mean is that a mouse (even with all the fancy features they fit in to these gaming types) doesn't have complex enough interaction between it and the OS or it and other interchangeable components to justify firmware and driver updates. The presence of such bugs which necessitate these indicates extreme shortcomings in design.

 

[stormblast]

@ KK, Have you even seen the Razer Drivers?
Have you seen the amount of Customisability they bring in?

No.. right?

Go have a look...

Also, the mouse works without drivers you know.. Just not at 1000Hz, only 500Hz. Which most people use anyways :S.

Also, the extra mouse buttons work without the Drivers too.

KK, you may be good at blah blah blah and more, but when it comes to Gaming and Gaming hardware, I dont think you do know anything about it..
.

well i tried to stay out of this topic but then had to post.

dont get me started on gaming & gaming hardware especially when it comes to mice. its only all hyped crap. i have used CH for a month & my 1.1. the dpi makes zero difference & also the hz makes zero difference. needless to say a mouse should only be chosen on the criteria of the shape & that the sensor atleast be decent that it doesnt skip. all this crap about dpi & hz is really bs.

also the crap u talk about ms & logitech just cause u own a razer mouse, the fact remains both logitech n ms release quality mice without any issues. tell me any mx series logitech mice or ie3 or 1.1 or wheelmouseoptical having any issues. the laser series as ashr has mentioned have always had a problem on hard surfaces & not on cloth surface. & knowing u aditya u are a fanboy (no offense), meaning if you owned a logitech or ms mouse, you would have cursed razer. the facts are there, just ignoring them wont make any difference. you have basically chosen razer for the fact that u like the shape which is a the only reason to buy a mouse. all the extra dpi & hz crap is just bragging rights which makes no difference. i have been out of gaming for quite sometime but the top players always used the ms ie3 or the logitech mx series mice. the diamondback & the laser is used by just a small percentage of top players.

you keep talking about gaming n all professionally & that drivers are needed. in many events locally & internationally u are not allowed to install any drivers. i think i should just let u know this.

so what KK is saying is 100% correct. a mouse should detect & work perfectly in games & also in normal use without any external drivers. both of this which is done by logitech & the ms mice both of them work perfectly with the windows default drivers.

 

[ashr]

and what problems did the good MS mice have on release? the 3.0 was pretty close to perfect when it came out... no wonder it's STILL preferred by many professional gamers even though it 'only' has 400 dpi and 125hz polling rate. the only drawback was that it was right hand only but the WMO and the intelli optical filled that gap.

MS as well as Logitech have also made some CRAPPY mice... the recent MS laser mice and some logitechs had really bad skipping problems. the difference is that they didn't market it as hard as razer and try to pass them off as gaming mice... in that sense, Razer actually has one disadvantage... every single product of theirs is aimed at gamers only (even their so called pro mouse for gfx artists is nothing but a white diamondback). You'd think they would have learned over all these years what gamers really require... mice that do not skip no matter what the surface is.

you ask "so what if razer has a few more..."

as a 'gaming' hardware company... those 'few more issues' are more than enough to give them a bad reputation as the same issues are the ones they should be working on before thinking of other stuff... those issues are the ones which matter to gamers.

if you read the review i posted, you may understand better... here are some of the more important excerpts

As more Habu shipments arrived, forum posts on Razerblueprints.net, a third-party Razer enthusiast site, revealed some distressing flaws in the mouse's firmware. The very first firmware upgrade released by Razer apparently limited the mouse to a 125Hz refresh rate. As high refresh rates (500 to 1000Hz) are a major selling point of the Habu, the firmware bug was obviously unacceptable to users.

gg. they advertised 1000hz and it's not even half of that.

The mouse did work; it just wasn't detected by the drivers. Even after several reboots and reinstalls, the drivers wouldn't detect the Habu. Taking a tip from the Razerblueprints forum, I installed the Razer Copperhead drivers and flashed the Habu with Copperhead firmware. Because the Copperhead and the Habu have the same internals, this allowed the drivers to detect the mouse as a Copperhead. Then, using the Copperhead drivers, I flashed the Habu firmware onto the mouse.

so everyone who buys it has to visit razerblueprints... which isn't all that famous... and figure out that they have to use COPPERHEAD DRIVERS for a HABU. pretty straightforward eh?

After a grand total of nine reboots, the Razer drivers finally detected the Habu. Shortly thereafter, Windows XP presented me with the blue screen of death. I haven't seen a blue screen of death in years, so I was happy to see my old friend again. However, my computer rebooted before I could get a "hello" out of my mouth.

When I got back into Windows, the drivers again wouldn't recognize the mouse. However, the cursor was still responding, so I decided to give it a whirl in some games.

lol. blue screen of death over a mouse install. maybe that's what happens when a GAMER does a review of the mouse on his GAMING SYSTEM instead of some "flawless precision thanks to patented technology" reviewer doing it on a freshly installed OS. solution : everyone should reinstall windows before installing habu drivers.

I immediately noticed that the mouse felt choppy in-game, much like a PS/2 mouse. Exiting out of Quake 3, I fired up a mouse rate checker and--lo and behold--the Habu was running at approximately 60Hz. That's the standard rate for a PS/2 mouse, and half the standard rate for a USB mouse.

haha less than 1/16th of the advertised polling rate.

The real kicker about the Habu is that the shape and build quality are phenomenal. As noted, the Habu is shaped almost exactly like the MSIE 3.0, and is very comfortable to hold (a subjective view, but it fits well in an average-sized hand).

this is the good part. they got something right. now if they had just done a little more testing before releasing it, maybe it could have been the next IE 3. this is why i said they CAN make great mice but something or the other always plagues them... be it skipping, driver/firmware trouble or durability :/

 

[Nikhil]

What I dont understand is why people complain abt tracking issues with laser mice ?

I mean if you can spend 3-4K on a mouse, you can surely spend 50 bucks on a cheap cloth pad. So what if it doesnt work on a hard surface like icemat ??

 

[stormblast]

What I dont understand is why people complain abt tracking issues with laser mice ?

I mean if you can spend 3-4K on a mouse, you can surely spend 50 bucks on a cheap cloth pad. So what if it doesnt work on a hard surface like icemat ??

yes hard surface can be icemat, func, exatmatt & many other such surfaces. its not a question of spending 50rs nikhil n buying a cheap cloth pad, the person can easily afford a 1000rs cloth pad also. every1 doesnt want to play on cloth. every person has a difference preference. if someone likes using a hardsurface like the 1's i mentioned y should he switch to cloth surface, he is spending a lot on a mouse for something that is top of the line & latest, the least you will want for it is to be compatible with all surfaces. all laser mice have problems on hardsurfaces, i am not just talking about razer ch.

 

[Udit]

a mouse should detect & work perfectly in games & also in normal use without any external drivers. both of this which is done by logitech & the ms mice both of them work perfectly with the windows default drivers.

:rofl: I own a Razer Krait & I use the windows default drivers & I type with the on screen keyboard using the mouse & Karan always asks me how do I type so fast

so you see I have Zero problems with Razer so don't complain about Razer without testing it with the windows default drivers

after getting the Razer Krait my typing speed increased 50%

people who can afford a Razer costing minimum 2.5k should be able to afford a Steelpad QCK Mini too costing Rs. 550

 

[Mohit]

lol this is a GO killer....

repped u ashr

the GO had maximum number of Kraits in it ....so i dont think it will get KILLED or something.

anyways ill be asking people to confirm there if they want the stuff or not...i hate lamers who buy stuff without doing their research and then cry at home.

no offence meant ...:cool2:

 

[Chaos]

MS as well as Logitech have also made some CRAPPY mice... the recent MS laser mice and some logitechs had really bad skipping problems.

I dispute this statement.... I switched from my trusty old mx510 to a lazer mouse 6000 with the older 1000 DPI sensor and haven't looked back since. There is absolutely no comparison between the two... the Laser 6000 is lightyears ahead in terms of tracking accuracy and frankly i've never had one single issue with it skipping on my Steelpad QCK. Unless you have first hand experience with a laser, just dissing it is no good at all. I don't dispute your claim that razers are made flimsily though... I've seen far too many die on folks/start having issues really soon which makes me feell razers have poor qc.

 

[stormblast]

:rofl: I own a Razer Krait & I use the windows default drivers & I type with the on screen keyboard using the mouse & Karan always asks me how do I type so fast

so you see I have Zero problems with Razer so don't complain about Razer without testing it with the windows default drivers.

after getting the Razer Krait my typing speed increased 50%

people who can afford a Razer costing minimum 2.5k should be able to afford a Steelpad QCK Mini too costing Rs. 550

i dont think u have read properly what we are talking about. so please read it again udit. the mouse in question is razer CH & some other laser mice. the CH is really horrible when used with windows default drivers.

I dispute this statement.... I switched from my trusty old mx510 to a lazer mouse 6000 with the older 1000 DPI sensor and haven't looked back since. There is absolutely no comparison between the two... the Laser 6000 is lightyears ahead in terms of tracking accuracy and frankly i've never had one single issue with it skipping on my Steelpad QCK. Unless you have first hand experience with a laser, just dissing it is no good at all. I don't dispute your claim that razers are made flimsily though... I've seen far too many die on folks/start having issues really soon which makes me feell razers have poor qc.

i dont think u read it properly. me n ashr both have mentioned clearly that the laser have some bad tracking issues on hardsurface. & i dont see that u are using it on one so you shouldnt be having the problem.

 

[Udit]

i dont think u have read properly what we are talking about. so please read it again udit. the mouse in question is razer CH & some other laser mice. the CH is really horrible when used with windows default drivers.

oops sorry my fault :blushing:

 

[Cain0xr]

Meh, IMO if a mouse meeds a specific pad it's not worth it for me, I don't tend to use any pads whatsoever they are usually more of a hindrance. It's not about spending 50 bucks on a cloth pad, it's about the mouse forcing me to use one when I don't want to. If its too touchy about surfaces it works on I give it a pass.

All that said my 1.1 and ms optical 3000 gave me no problems whatsoever without a pad, heh who knows I might even win a match against rio or even ashr if I still use well working <1000 bucks mouse compared to their >3000rs. diamondhead and copperhead and whatnot pretty names they give to mice with occasional skipping problems

No wonder ashr said hardly anyone uses the CH or DB, if it's got issues it's not worth taking the risk during a match :/

 

[stormblast]

Meh, IMO if a mouse meeds a specific pad it's not worth it for me, I don't tend to use any pads whatsoever they are usually more of a hindrance. It's not about spending 50 bucks on a cloth pad, it's about the mouse forcing me to use one when I don't want to. If its too touchy about surfaces it works on I give it a pass.

All that said my 1.1 and ms optical 3000 gave me no problems whatsoever without a pad, heh who knows I might even win a match against rio or even ashr if I still use well working <1000 bucks mouse compared to their >3000rs. diamondhead and copperhead and whatnot pretty names they give to mice with occasional skipping problems

No wonder ashr said hardly anyone uses the CH or DB, if it's got issues it's not worth taking the risk during a match :/

btw just cause they are using more expensive mice doesnt mean that u cant beat them with the 1.1. dont worry u will beat both ashr & rio (i guess u are talking about q3). hehe

 

[Cain0xr]

btw just cause they are using more expensive mice doesnt mean that u cant beat them with the 1.1. dont worry u will beat both ashr & rio (i guess u are talking about q3). hehe

Heh, my point was actually that I am way below their skill level, but if a situation comes up when they are forced to use mice with skipping problems then even a n00b like me has a chance using a decent mouse with less than half the price

And of course I am talking about q3!!! :|

BTW I think I seen your nick around before.....you from fs?

 

[ashr]

@Chaos, first hand experience with MS laser mice... no but i've read enough. with CH, yes. have seen a friend's CH skipping right in front of me. the pad? a Razer exactmat itself. you may not have any problems as you used it with a steelpad qck but you can google it yourself for further proof. you'll find hundreds of people complaining about laser sensors in CH,g5, MS (not as much as the others though... the mouse didn't become too popular as most gamers were tired of laser by the time this came out) and even the fatal1ty 1010 mouse.

@Nikhil, exactly what stormblast said... it's not about spending money. some people prefer other surfaces like plastic and glass. laser mice don't do too well on them. good opticals seem to handle many different surfaces without problems.

@Udit... i forgot about the krait looks like it's the first razer mouse that did not have issues upon release but that's probably due to it using the fixed diamondback sensor (the Agilent ADNS 3080). i dont know about the build quality though.. never used one. again, the krait is optical... not laser. it doesn't skip... at all. it seems to be compatible with many different surfaces. maybe that's why Razer have woken up now and gone back to optical with the Death Adder?

@mohit and to others.. just for the record, i didn't post this with the intention of putting down razer go thread at all. i stopped posting there when it was made clear that it wasn't the place for a discussion. i posted this habu review here as i saw it on esreality... linked to ggl. it was made by a regular gamer... which meant that he tried to look at the things that matter to gamers the most. the review didn't have very good things to say so i was just lamenting about Razer's poor quality control. also, i figured some people may have thought about buying the habu... this could be of some use to them.

 

[bottle]

i dont think u read it properly. me n ashr both have mentioned clearly that the laser have some bad tracking issues on hardsurface. & i dont see that u are using it on one so you shouldnt be having the problem.

just curious, what problems exactly ? me not much of a gamer but for normal use and occasional gaming i havent noticed anything with a mx1000 and a func .. had problems with the smooth surface after a few months of use but the rough side is working great still