Electricity prices

guest_999

Innovator
I was just watching a live yt stream of a japanese youtuber who restores old cars and sells them. He recently moved to a huge house and his monthly electric bill was just around 10k and he has 3-4 ac's, 2-3 (3-4KW) air compressors for painting etc, arc welders, cutters, grinders, power washers etc. He had uploaded few videos this month of power washing his garage and painting it. In India i guess if we had such a setup our electric bill would be in lacs per month. This is what I don't like about this govt. They always blame us but they are the first to rob us naked. Our govt is the biggest thief here.
You are comparing a first world developed country with a developing country with less than one fifth of GDP per capita (ppp basis). You are paying a much more electricity bill because the country cannot afford to give you cheaper rates, as simple as that.

but why is Indian govt still putting huge taxes on oil imports when we are getting oil from russia on discount and another round of taxes on oil products like lpg gas, petrol, diesel which are selling close to international market rates (both state and central taxes) and still saying they are in constant loss? Don't you think that is very questionable? I think Indian govt has mastered the act of gaslighting it's citizens into paying more taxes without questioning them. this is why, in every finance budget, all we see from these FM's is a new round of taxes being laid on top of existing ones. We are always a developing nation even though our economy is 5th largest in world now. Import duties touching 48-50+ percent. USD-INR exchange value going towards 90. I think we don't take enough time to figure things out and blindly believe the govt. What i don't get is why doesn't the govt talk of reducing the taxes even once? Reduce import duties, reduce export duties, reduce income taxes, etc. It's like they have no idea of making money besides raising taxes.
I guess you also bought into the hype of "5th largest economy". As they say the devil lies in the details. Don't just look at the absolute economy size but GDP per capita on PPP basis. On that scale India currently ranks 125th & whatever you are hoping/expecting won't come true until India moves to at least 80 or higher position there.
 
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Nice for you. Here i'm in 2 minds about buying a single door fridge because my electric consumption will go from 45 to 75 per month and my bill will jump from 490 to ~900 per month. Ac is out of question because i've seen people getting 40k bills/month with just one ac running for 8 hrs a day.
that AC bill is just ridiculous, either the price per unit is realy high or something's wrong here, we ran 3 ACs in summers almost constantly 24x7, and our bill never crossed 20k (this was the most egregious, where all 4 ACs were running constantly) and generally our bill was around 10-12k
 
I guess you also bought into the hype of "5th largest economy". As they say the devil lies in the details. Don't just look at the absolute economy size but GDP per capita on PPP basis. On that scale India currently ranks 125th & whatever you are hoping/expecting won't come true until India moves to at least 80 or higher position there.
Interesting map. Is Maldives green in that map meaning their gdp is higher than India's yet they get 30 billion free money from us?
You are comparing a first world developed country with a developing country with less than one fifth of GDP per capita (ppp basis). You are paying a much more electricity bill because the country cannot afford to give you cheaper rates, as simple as that.
Shouldn't third world rates be cheaper than first world rates? Coal is produced in India at Indian prices. Labour is cheap. Cost of production is cheap. Land is cheap. Yet prices are higher than first world. Does not make sense to me.

First world give more salary, maintain their infra more, spend more, but their power is cheaper? Something is wrong here. Either Indians are really bad workers or our way of doing business is really bad. Our cost of input is very low but cost of finished goods is very high. And it's not like we get 24 hours uninterrupted supply. There's been power cuts almost daily for 4 hours from last week in my area. Seems like Indian govt is shit in running business and tanks everything it lays its hands upon.

that AC bill is just ridiculous, either the price per unit is realy high or something's wrong here, we ran 3 ACs in summers almost constantly 24x7, and our bill never crossed 20k (this was the most egregious, where all 4 ACs were running constantly) and generally our bill was around 10-12k
yup it is ridiculous. maha state charging maha prices.
0-100 > 4.71 + 0.450 some per unit charge
101-300 > 10.29 + 0.80
not bothering with other slabs because too much to type here. These are just the unit charges. Rest meter fees, wheeling fees, other random shit fees, gst, kisan tax, sales tax etc extra. It's like they are purposely trying to make up new shit to tax us on.
 
Shouldn't third world rates be cheaper than first world rates? Coal is produced in India at Indian prices. Labour is cheap. Cost of production is cheap. Land is cheap. Yet prices are higher than first world. Does not make sense to me.
Population is your answer, every public amenity in India is overloaded just because of how much population there is in India, for middle class Individual, there will be at least a 1000 people below poverty line, and the only way they get any semblance of public amenity is if we pay taxes, I'm not selfless enough to not say its bullshit, but it is what it is.
 
I too am and will always be bothered about electricity consumption. To be fare, I always upgrade to the most efficient appliances or devices. The 5k bill was around 2018, after which all the fans where changed to BLDC and LED lights replaced from 80 lumens per watt to 120 Lumens/watt. Added solar water heater that really dropped the units consumed. AC in summer run for 12 hrs a day and they consume about 1 unit every 3.5 hours per AC in top most floor where roof is exposed to sun, while rooms which are not exposed to sun consume around 1 unit every 4.5 to 5 hours. All these are 5 star rated inverter AC, with a ISEER of above 5.1 ,So unless one has a pre historic window AC its highly unlikely they will get 40k bills a month.
Same here. Most of my stuff is power saving 5 star ones. I hardly use anything other than laptop and one bldc fan and an induction and electric cooker. I even removed my inverter to save on units. Solar is out of question since i live in a flat and society does not allow even dish antenna on the roof. One hole in the roof and it becomes a passage for rain water. I've seen buildings where they allowed dish antennas on the walls become soaked with rain water after just one rain. See the per rate charges I typed above and it will be clear about why the rates are high if one uses an ac. :)
If the value of USD falls then everyone with high USD forex reserves will be screwed and as they sell it, it will be a double whammy and will drop in price even further.
Who will buy a falling currency or a useless currency? USA? Do they have enough gold reserves? What if they say you're on your own? If someone like Trump is in office, I'm sure that will be the message. USA won't even try to rescue their currency then.
Population is your answer, every public amenity in India is overloaded just because of how much population there is in India, for middle class Individual, there will be at least a 1000 people below poverty line, and the only way they get any semblance of public amenity is if we pay taxes, I'm not selfless enough to not say its bullshit, but it is what it is.
But instead of using our tax money wisely, the govt is spending it on countries that openly insult us. In the eyes of the world and those countries we look like total push overs without a backbone. We may like to pacify ourselves saying we are doing it becasue China or we have a large heart and let bygones be bygones but the only message it sends across is, if you want money, insult India and get more in return. We are ultuimately the losers here because that money could have been invested in our infra or education or healthcare but we chose to give it to some trash countries just becasue they are our neighbours. Why don't they go to IMF or other loan giving institutions but come directly to India? Because of our pushover attitude.
 
... And it's not like we get 24 hours uninterrupted supply. There's been power cuts almost daily for 4 hours from last week in my area. Seems like Indian govt is shit in running business and tanks everything it lays its hands upon.


yup it is ridiculous. maha state charging maha prices.
0-100 > 4.71 + 0.450 some per unit charge
101-300 > 10.29 + 0.80
not bothering with other slabs because too much to type here. These are just the unit charges. Rest meter fees, wheeling fees, other random shit fees, gst, kisan tax, sales tax etc extra. It's like they are purposely trying to make up new shit to tax us on.

Mahavitran Exactly Charges DOUBLE (after crossing 100 Units, from 101 Units onwards) compare to Adani Electricity Mumbai charges. Check below image and DATE carefully.

  1. Adani Electricity Service in Mumbai (24x7/365) is really really very good, never have any outage or power cut, if major works going than only power stop for time being, but RARELY !!!
  2. There is Emergency Help service number on each & every Adani electricity bill but in Mahavitran forget about any emergency service or help line number (not at all printed)


adani-vs-mahavitran.jpg
 
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We have the lowest mobile rates in the world. Does it have anything to do GDP per capita? No. So why do you assign it when its mismanagement of the power sector.
We are also the second largest mobile phone users country in the world just behind China (not a democracy or free mkt country) & having practically a duopoly of telecom providers whose ideal aim is to have an avg monthly mobile bill of around 500 for "economic sustainability". Telecom sector of India is not a good example to give anywhere.

We need power sector reforms. Don't think that happened at all after liberalisation. For the simple reason the various escoms are one among other cash cows for the political parties. That is why we pay more.
You pay more because of that & because those reforms will never happen here so only way to have lower power prices is by becoming too rich to afford having them.

I don't buy into it. I advocate it. We will blow away 4, 3, 2 & become 2.

Know why? 4,3,2 are all assisted economies that in addition benefitted from a peace dividend. We had no peace dividend since independence and were sanctioned by the west for several decades.

Yet we still grew. Therefore our growth is unstoppable. I don't care about GDP per capita. I want to boast & chest thump GDP. If we have a moon or mars program people will still whine about GDP per capita forgetting its only budding superpowers that have such programs to begin with.

At independence we had the highest GDP in Asia and ranked 6th in the world. It took seventy years to get beyond. We've had the largest economy in the past making up a third of global GDP at the time. Or equivalent to what the US economy was at the start of the 90s.
That is the typical mentality in India so no surprises there. Just like how ppl buy Crore+ priced flats in Bangalore & Mumbai with all amenities & infra within their gated communities but outside there is the biggest slum in Asia & drowning roads whenever it rains heavily. Having Moon or Mars program has nothing to do with GDP per capita especially not some "get out of jail free card" for poor GDP per capita. Having a moon or mars program does not restrict a country to also have good gdp per capita but this seems to be conveniently forgotten by many.

Interesting map. Is Maldives green in that map meaning their gdp is higher than India's yet they get 30 billion free money from us?
Per capita means basically per person. It means a typical Maldives citizen is more rich than a typical India & that is correct. That INR 30 Billion is not exactly free money btw, it comes with some strings attached.

Shouldn't third world rates be cheaper than first world rates? Coal is produced in India at Indian prices. Labour is cheap. Cost of production is cheap. Land is cheap. Yet prices are higher than first world. Does not make sense to me.
The main difference between First world & Third world countries is "quality of life" of a typical citizen. To keep it simple, India's per capita electricity consumption is less than one fifth of typical first world countries.
Producing cheap power does not mean delivering cheap power. Power produced cheaply at a power plant takes hundreds sometimes thousands of Km to travel across grids, power stations, transformers & poles to reach your home & that isn't cheap.

First world give more salary, maintain their infra more, spend more, but their power is cheaper? Something is wrong here. Either Indians are really bad workers or our way of doing business is really bad. Our cost of input is very low but cost of finished goods is very high. And it's not like we get 24 hours uninterrupted supply. There's been power cuts almost daily for 4 hours from last week in my area. Seems like Indian govt is shit in running business and tanks everything it lays its hands upon.
Well you yourself answered it. Because it is the reason that's why India need to become much more richer to better afford wasting all the extra money to be able to provide cheaper power.
 
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Mahavitran Exactly Charges DOUBLE (after crossing 100 Units, from 101 Units onwards) compare to Adani Electricity Mumbai charges. Check below image and DATE carefully.

  1. Adani Electricity Service in Mumbai (24x7/365) is really really very good, never have any outage or power cut, if major works going than only power stop for time being, but RARELY !!!
  2. There is Emergency Help service number on each & every Adani electricity bill but in Mahavitran forget about any emergency service or help line number (not at all printed)


View attachment 211047

That is old rate of 2020. This is new rate of 2024 below.
1. No private electric suppliers in my area. Only Mahavitaran. They have complete monopoly in entire maharashtra state. They look at customers like bakras.
2 . Yes. Mahavitaran is rubbish. They charge ~300 rupees to reconnect the wires they pulled out of the meter but won't bother to come put it back. The linesman just says to ask a local electrician to do the job. They are just not motivated to do anything properly since they can't be fired from the job.

mseb_oct24.jpg



Anyways, heard that India is opening a naval base in Maldives on an artificial island built and expanded with waste generated on other islands. Probably, this time India will handle it better.
Wasn't it in Lakshdweep or Mauritius? China already has islands on 99 year lease in maldives, why would we build a naval base there with chinese spy boats roaming around?

Producing cheap power does not mean delivering cheap power. Power produced cheaply at a power plant takes hundreds sometimes thousands of Km to travel across grids, power stations, transformers & poles to reach your home & that isn't cheap.
:D You are joking right? That problem was solved more than a few decades ago by transporting electricity at high voltages (+25kV) through power lines. Indian railways already has that in place from a decade back. Don't tell me the national power grid is run on lower voltages. It isn't cheap but all this tech has been there from ages. If it isn't cheap here, it should be considerably costlier in USA where the distances are larger and houses are further apart. Their per KW rate is much much cheaper than India's. All these are just random excuses you're trying to justify an incompetent govt agency. I don't know what you get by doing that, but it's hurting Indians in the long run. The longer we justify such crap, the longer such crap will be put in our face as good service. And if I don't compare with developed nations, should we start comparing with undeveloped nations like some random country in africa or somewhere? Do we grow by comparing with a developed world and copy their good infra or compare with some beat down country and feel good looking at their broken down infra? We'll never grow if we keep comparing India with pakistan, bangladesh, sri lanka, nepal, bhutan. These are just poor beggar countries with bad govts running on borrowed funds. Why would i compare india to them?
 
You are joking right? That problem was solved more than a few decades ago by transporting electricity at high voltages (+25kV) through power lines. Indian railways already has that in place from a decade back. Don't tell me the national power grid is run on lower voltages. It isn't cheap but all this tech has been there from ages. If it isn't cheap here, it should be considerably costlier in USA where the distances are larger and houses are further apart. Their per KW rate is much much cheaper than India's. All these are just random excuses you're trying to justify an incompetent govt agency.
The joke's on you. You completely missed my point. When I said "long distances" I meant the installation & maintenance of infra in urban centres & remote villages. I guess you have never been to the interior parts of Delhi where roads are just wide enough to let 2 people walk side by side with 6 stories houses on each side with the mesh of electricity wires just a few cm away from balconies. Even for setting up a new metro line in Delhi with latest tech & all the money it takes so much time to get all the necessary clearances & permits & you think upgrading/maintaining electricity infra in Mumbai or any part of India is cheap. Transmission & distribution cost in India never went down because the infra needs a massive upgrade which is just not possible. On the other hand, setting up a power plant on a govt acquired land in a remote location is comparatively a piece of cake for any govt.
All these are just random excuses you're trying to justify an incompetent govt agency. I don't know what you get by doing that, but it's hurting Indians in the long run. The longer we justify such crap, the longer such crap will be put in our face as good service. And if I don't compare with developed nations, should we start comparing with undeveloped nations like some random country in africa or somewhere? Do we grow by comparing with a developed world and copy their good infra or compare with some beat down country and feel good looking at their broken down infra? We'll never grow if we keep comparing India with pakistan, bangladesh, sri lanka, nepal, bhutan. These are just poor beggar countries with bad govts running on borrowed funds. Why would i compare india to them?
These are not random excuses but facts & giving facts is not justification. If you want to compare to developed nations then go ahead but then compare in all fields not just electricity which basically means comparing GDP per capita on PPP basis & it is not me but you who somehow feel the need to insert Pak/Bangladesh/SL/Nepal/Bhutan in this discussion. Complete privatisation of power distribution & transmission is never allowed by any political party in India & most likely never will so whatever "extra electricity charges" you have to live with will continue to be until India's per capita GDP shoots enough for govt to afford lower electricity rates even without such privatisation.
 
While we all discus about electricity prices, how may people in India really use electricity by Paying Bill or can say legally. I think rural electric company/mahavitran (Govt.) type just double up their unit price as nearly 60-70% population from such area just using electricity by theft (taar/kanta) method.

Now at various places in India Govt./Electricity Company starts installing Smart Meters first in individual house/premises/society/Moholla etc. and latter at Transformer, so Electricity company will get idea of THEFT by calculating units transferred via Transformer and from there to Individual House.
 
While we all discus about electricity prices
The discussion of this thread was supposed to be about Israel vs others.. haha.
Smart meters and meters at transformer to assess theft is used in some places these days, utility provider then started charging everyone under that area for theft. This caused people to call and report theft to utility provider.
India being India, the profits made by utility provider is then only going to transfer corruption by people to corruption by utility provider...
 
Smart meters and meters at transformer to assess theft is used in some places these days, utility provider then started charging everyone under that area for theft.
This is clearly illegal btw, just need a lawyer seeking an opportunity to make some name & then a PIL in HC/SC.
 
We are also the second largest mobile phone users country in the world just behind China (not a democracy or free mkt country) & having practically a duopoly of telecom providers whose ideal aim is to have an avg monthly mobile bill of around 500 for "economic sustainability". Telecom sector of India is not a good example to give anywhere.
Why? Isn't the telecom sector delivering prices that conform to GDP per capita?

Certainly more affordable than earlier.

Whereas you could argue that energy costs are not.
You pay more because of that & because those reforms will never happen here so only way to have lower power prices is by becoming too rich to afford having them.
When the state was the only telecom provider. Penetration was low and a phone was considered a luxury.

If there was more competition in the power sector then prices will reflect the increased competition.

In Delhi this is a reality. I thought it was the case in Bombay too. So i don't get why @6pack doesn't get the benefit?

Bangalore has only one provider.
That is the typical mentality in India so no surprises there. Just like how ppl buy Crore+ priced flats in Bangalore & Mumbai with all amenities & infra within their gated communities but outside there is the biggest slum in Asia & drowning roads whenever it rains heavily. Having Moon or Mars program has nothing to do with GDP per capita especially not some "get out of jail free card" for poor GDP per capita. Having a moon or mars program does not restrict a country to also have good gdp per capita but this seems to be conveniently forgotten by many.
Because it's only recently we could brag about it. I remember a discussion here a month before the 2019 election and how various people were giving themselves migraines about India becoming a $5 tr economy.

Today nobody has trouble imagining $5 tr and instead aspiring to a $10 tr economy.
Per capita means basically per person. It means a typical Maldives citizen is more rich than a typical India & that is correct. That INR 30 Billion is not exactly free money btw, it comes with some strings attached.
The question is why does gdp per capita matter. If it did then showoff section on this board would be about showing what fruits and vegetables you could afford today.

It matters if you want to launch some fcmg product and looking for opportunities. Not when speaking about the aggregate national level.

And there is the clue for you.

Aggregrate not disaggregate.
 
Seeing the eye watering electricity price in MH, for those consuming above 101 units, I think it may be better to get a EV charging meter, where the price is Rs 6.58 and wheeling charge of Rs 1.17 irrespective of the units consumed there is no slab rates and fixed charge of Rs 80/kwh . Obviously the initial cost to get this sanctioned will be like 10k or so.

I doubt they are going to verify whether one really has a EV.
 
Today nobody has trouble imagining $5 tr and instead aspiring to a $10 tr economy.
Gather around folks. Let me tell you a story about Nominal GDP vs Real GDP.

You use nominal if you want your chest to fill up with warm, fuzzy feelings. You use real if you want to live in cold, hard reality.

The US dollar has inflated around ~25% since 2019, which in my opinion, is a very conservative estimate. Let's say you ignore inflation in 2025, and take the IMF's optimistic GDP estimate of $4.34 trillion in 2025 for India as fact. When accounting for inflation, that is only about $3.255 trillion in 2019 dollars, from the $2.85 trillion we started with in 2019. A gain of 14% in 6 years. And that's with the numbers as nice as I can make them.

Does everyone still feel warm and fuzzy? No? You can always go and look at some non-inflation adjusted numbers to feel better again.
 
Considering at face value:


2023-average-rate-increase-map.png


$0.12 per kWh seems fair in comparison (that's Rs 10, the highest slab rate in the state I'm in).

Electricity isn't a natural resource, it needs to be generated. There are no secrets to lowering cost of production, apart from nuclear.

I'm of the mindset if we're going to consume it the same way as "developed" nations, we're going to have to pay for it in the same way as they do.

Meaning, I don't expect to pay less just because the rupee is weaker than the dollar, that entire point is irrelevant.

Also, electricity is not cheaper in Japan:


Screenshot_2024-10-14-04-48-46-271_com.microsoft.emmx-edit.jpg


34 JPY is $0.23 today.

If your bills are higher than the people in these "developed" nations, it's simply because you're consuming more.

Either because of poor maintenance, poor insulation, poor ventilation or just poor efficiency.

Not because you're being charged more.
 
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But instead of using our tax money wisely, the govt is spending it on countries that openly insult us. In the eyes of the world and those countries we look like total push overs without a backbone. We may like to pacify ourselves saying we are doing it becasue China or we have a large heart and let bygones be bygones but the only message it sends across is, if you want money, insult India and get more in return. We are ultuimately the losers here because that money could have been invested in our infra or education or healthcare but we chose to give it to some trash countries just becasue they are our neighbours. Why don't they go to IMF or other loan giving institutions but come directly to India? Because of our pushover attitude.
that's international politics for you, if we dont give them aid, they'll get it from China/ other countries, and I think you have already seen the consequences of India not doing more in making sure Sheikh Hasina remains in power, Bangladesh is moving towards Pakistan/China, and I wont even delve into the religious ramifications of it, since that in of itself will need a new thread, and as a commenter pointed out, with Bhutan too taking China's aid, we are going to be pincered in if we dont do something to win those countries over. Regimes change everyday, and you just gotta play well with any regime, this is the reason why that idiot Trump was invited by Queen Elizabeth to Buckingham Palace despite it being her choice and she only inviting exceptional presidents to the palace (not sure about this, but it definitely was something about Elizabeth only chose exceptional people for the honor and Trump making a fool of himself there), last being Obama.

This is just how it is, this is also why we are again leasing land from Maldives to build a naval base, as we need one there to react to China's movements.

Like it or not, its as simple as that.
There's been power cuts almost daily for 4 hours from last week in my area. Seems like Indian govt is shit in running business and tanks everything it lays its hands upon.
This I can answer, govt is indeed shit at running any business because its hands are tied, there's a lot of bullshit/protection that govt employees get such that as long as they just show up to the job, they are essentially impossible to fire, and are just re-assigned, any bill that govt brings to regulate this, the opposition will cry foul. There's no way out of this aside from semi-privatisation of govt holdings, which is where PSUs come in. This is the reason why BSNL is shit, no consipiracy theory about how govt intentionally made it, just good old stupidity at the play.

Look up "waaris pratha" and its modern equivalent, where if someone dies on the job, there dependent, be it spouse or child, is enititled to get a job from govt under quota. How do you think you'll get competent people to work for critical jobs when such idiocy exists?

Forget all of this, what do you think the consequences of the current reservation system are? Let me give you an example from my relative, you can choose to believe it or not (I'll indeed be fudging some facts to maintain anonymity but idea remains the same. My relative works in a pretty high postion in a govt office, they get a assistant for their basic administrative work, like maintaining schedule, drafting letters, and what not and the servant got in through reservation, and guess what? he cant even write anything in Hindi, my relative had to draft their own letters and what not because he was incompetent and if my relative dared say anything, a discrimination case would have been filed against them and this happened some 7-8 years ago, and guess what? that same idiot assistant is now at a higher position than them.

Do you know that in JEE Mains, the cut-off for SC/ST cat is some negative marks? like if they literally show up for the exam, sleep through it, they'll literally pass the Mains and even score admission in some lower tier NITs/IIITs?

How do you expect your workforce to work when majority of it comprises of incompetent morons who get everything handed to them on a platter?

Reservation is a good idea in of itself, but the way its implemented is an atrocity. We give reservation in undergrad, which is perfectly fine, minor communities get education, but then you give them reservation for post-grad, which again you can kinda stomach, but then you again give them reservation for even group A govt jobs, and while you can cry about it, you just make do with it, but then you again give them reservation for ****ing PROMOTIONS , where exactly does this make sense? you have medicority right from the very bottom levels of babus to govt officers at the top level, how do you think govt is gonna work?

and this ties into corruption too, this again is a real life example with details fudged, a barely above poverty line guy qualifies the exam for CTET, UPTET, UGC or whatever, but since he was unfortunate enough to belong to a general category, he wont get a job, and the only way he can get one is, if he bribes the principal of some govt school and gets them to process his application first. I think the current going rate is some 7-10 lacs? do remember he's barely above poverty line, how do you think he's gonna recover the money spent? I think you'll have your answer.

even for lowly positions, like that of a chaprasi (I'm not insulting them, its just the lingo that is used to refer to this position by govt officers), you need to pay a bribe of atleast 2-3lacs to get it for a general category Indian. So people right from the very beginning of their career are forced into corruption because of events out of their control, how do you think the govt will do anything?

and then, you have political parties playing the religious angle in reservation, like Congress in Karnataka (not sure which state, need to look it up), where they have made every muslim subgroup an OBC, thus giving them reservation quota.

EDIT: I was wrong about the current congress govt doing it, Muslims have been under OBC quota since JDS govt, but BJP did try to move them under EWS quota where the matter is pending in Supreme Court
 
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