superczar
Level J
I know it's unrelated but that 20% TCS is a joke.
I mean even the 5% that was started in 2019 was ridiculous but 20% is absolutely nonsensical
Adani group, an Evil corp?
- Thread starter Pyception
- Start date
I mean even the 5% that was started in 2019 was ridiculous but 20% is absolutely nonsensical
I don't think he resides in India.
I read somewhere that TCS is not appplicable to credit card transactions, since it is not an LRS product, so maybe use that in someway? But eventually even that route will be closed.
Capital controls and taxation in India are going to an absurd level.
TinTinSnowy
Level G
Yes. But large credit card transactions will bring you under radar and they might penalize us retrospectively in the future. Not sure if there are provisions for such. Better not to take panga with IT Dept and use FoF of ETF / ETF / MF to invest internationally until there are regulatory changes.
alekhkhanna
Level H
TinTinSnowy
Level G
It seems that selling their stake was the last resort for them to service their debt, as they were unsuccessful in raising cash through FPO and securing debt at favorable interest rates. The reason behind their high promoter holding in the first place was to control the float and manipulate the stock prices, which is not possible without a significant promoter holding. It is possible that they may need to sell more of their stake in the current year to reduce their leverage. This will be beneficial for everyone involved, as it is better to own less of your company than to watch it go down.
alekhkhanna
Level H
Yeah, this was the last resort. But looking at how shareholding is spread across multiple shell entities, they will somehow buy back from the market and gain control beyond what's allowed.
blr_p
Level N
That's what Hindenberg is doing and due to whistleblowers there is even the possibility of insider trading
Why has the SC taken this up?
Shouldn't this be the job of SEBI or other orgs that deal with the stock market?
alekhkhanna
Level H
No. Hindenburg presented facts which are mostly public. The additional due diligence was done by them by visiting the so called offices which were empty dilapidated rooms. They are a short seller, and there's nothing wrong being short on a company whose fundamentals are broken. I always respect short sellers because it takes extreme due diligence and hard conviction to go against the market leaders - they are the real deal. That level of conviction does not come from political connections.
They always have a bias since they are out to make a profit - but as we have seen multiple times, they are essential to corporate governance considering our regulatory agencies are just sitting ducks most of the time (not just India).
Optics ? Who knows ? But the committee is already biased towards the central government. And will likely delivery sealed judgement. So everyone cheers, and nothing happens.
And what world are we living today if we are targeting whistleblowers ? WTF ?
Did they make money ? I don't know. There is a likelihood. But more than that, they helped bring out the absolute disgusting corporate governance at Adani, and the complicity of current govt.
Is there something wrong in making money by taking a morally and ethically correct stand ?
Or would you prefer only corrupt corporations to make money as long as it fulfills jingoistic agenda ?
blr_p
Level N
All Hindenberg has produced is a list of allegations. Not facts.
Put it another way. Is the SC the right body to investigate those allegations of fraud and wrongdoing? that is not what the SC does
No, that the SC is involved tells me already that there was no wrongdoing, to begin with, or action to be pursued.
It's political just on a larger scale. I've already explained where Adani fits into the picture and who wants him to fail. This hit job was two years in the making. They got the timing wrong is what I think. It should have come out earlier to prevent Adani from getting the Haifa port. Still, one could argue it has set him back five years and will prevent him from getting any more in the short term so there is some damage done.
Give examples
This is the other thing. How much was made by short sellers? any ballpark figure of the total
We are given to understand that $100bn was wiped out.
Now if these short sellers only made a few million that means this was a hit job with the intent to take Adani out. That the bigger payoff was political, not pure profit. That the people who sanctioned it are big enough to protect Hindenberg.
I'm not the one saying there isn't clean corporate governance. There has to be or people would not be putting their money in the market. People are making out like this is going to be the next Satyam. There are people alleging that is the case and doing real damage in the process.
The answer to your question lies in how much those bonds were worth before this report came out. How did they get these high valuations? Quite a few people thought they were worth that much. Whether these were retail investors to me isn't important. That they attracted the asking price from whatever investor is.
The charge is they were overvalued and this happened due to market manipulation. really?
You could say a lot of things sell for much more than they are worth isn't it
Yeah, go tell that to your arms companies and big pharma. Those people are so powerful that no president can go against them. Eisenhower pointed that out. Nothing changed much since he said so.
It's the same deal everywhere. I will fund your political campaign in exchange for windfall profits. Democracy does not come for cheap. Neither do elections.
That the odds of an American president getting a second term are a great deal higher than for an Indian PM should tell you what the story in the US is.
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Why do you always attack the messenger and make absurd claims about me personally? You don’t know me…
blr_p
Level N
I wonder what the mood would be if Hindendberg went after your higher-valued companies and brought them down. Whether people would think this was good for corporate governance or would they scream bloody murder.
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> I wonder what the mood would be if Hindendberg went after your higher-valued companies and brought them down.
It will be far better to see rots in the system exposed than ending up like Harshad Metha times where investors end up bankrupt, suicide while villains always enjoying in highly 'ethical' countries like UK, etc.
Stock market is for investing, not a ponsi scheme even if Bernie Madoff ran one sitting as Chairman of NASDAQ stock exchange. Ton of prospective retiree's pensions, normal people's investments are tied to stock market. So, let there at least be an impetus to be on ethical side please.
> Whether people would think this was good for corporate governance or would they scream bloody murder.
There should never be a support system of scamsters, offenders should go to jail. Will stop such practices in the bud itself.
It will be far better to see rots in the system exposed than ending up like Harshad Metha times where investors end up bankrupt, suicide while villains always enjoying in highly 'ethical' countries like UK, etc.
Stock market is for investing, not a ponsi scheme even if Bernie Madoff ran one sitting as Chairman of NASDAQ stock exchange. Ton of prospective retiree's pensions, normal people's investments are tied to stock market. So, let there at least be an impetus to be on ethical side please.
> Whether people would think this was good for corporate governance or would they scream bloody murder.
There should never be a support system of scamsters, offenders should go to jail. Will stop such practices in the bud itself.
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blr_p
Level N
^People you mentioned are all either proven wrongdoers or convicted. Here people are saying Adani is running the same scam with nothing to back it up and the proof is the lack of any investigation to date by the authorities concerned.
Adani isn't going to request asylum abroad anytime soon.
They say I'm the one spreading conspiracy theories here
Adani isn't going to request asylum abroad anytime soon.
They say I'm the one spreading conspiracy theories here
drake_chan
Novice
Adani group had an mcap of $280B in November 2022 surpassing that of Tata Industries and more than Reliance. Compare the net income and future prospects of these entities and you will get your answers. Just pumping stocks incessantly like Harshad Mehta did won't bring any good.
It's time you start seeing things from a neutral perspective and not be blinded by excessive nationalism.
Your will get better clarity on things by also providing these inputs on www.reddit.com/r/india. A lot more people discussing the current state of indian politics there.
Most scams and convicts get exposed when somebody raise the fingers. This time it was Hinderberg. Irrelevent of all those, ethics, truth, etc. still matters.
Don't think Adani have much to worry, their stakes are now being sold to prominent fund houses in the world. Those fund houses will ensure future stability of Adani stocks, so no UK trip. Unlike KF boss who tripped and fell in the net at the wrong time. Also reminds of several others who are enjoying their exile happily in such developed and ethical countries.
Don't think Adani have much to worry, their stakes are now being sold to prominent fund houses in the world. Those fund houses will ensure future stability of Adani stocks, so no UK trip. Unlike KF boss who tripped and fell in the net at the wrong time. Also reminds of several others who are enjoying their exile happily in such developed and ethical countries.
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superczar
Level J
They wouldn't because it would be stupid of them to. A whistleblower wouldn't blow out a whistle unless there is something major to point out else they lose credibility.
Here is a thought exercise for you - Take Tata Motors or why only large cap..
Even a mid cap eg a Gillette or eClerx - go through the Annual report with a fine toothed comb and see if you can find anything suspicious/questionable.
I still don't get why you are so certain that this is a all cloaks & daggers - If Hindenburg were wrong and had done this out of pure malafide intent, Both of these would have happened:
a) A minor drop in market cap followed by a quick correction because the aggrieved party would have been quickly able to disprove the allegations
B) A massive lawsuit against the alleger - Major defamation and even criminal intent cases have been easily won for allegations and impact of a much lesser degree
As it stands, neither have - which only goes on to prove that you are trying to defend an indefensible scenario.
Hell, Even the alleged party isn't trying to discredit the alleger now but rather focusing on damage control
In some ways, its an excellent thing even for the Adani group that this happened - Post stake sales at what are probably realistic valuations, expect the new fund houses to have a major say on the corp governance practices which will only help everyone involved in the long run
Happens a lot in US markets and short sellers have lost billions. Jim Chanos made a lot of money on enron and also lost a lot on tsla. When he called Enron no one said “AtTaCk oN tHE Natioin”
You earned my respect, TOP G